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#1 26/5/09 0:25

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Dream Lab and Shinatama

Well, I was thinking yesterday and tonight about dreamlab: For one, it is actually a lab. smile Replace the textures with normal labish textures, remove the foggy particles, and allow a few changes in geometry (or not) due to foggy memory. My suspicion is that Konoko has been to the lab before, as a child (with child Muro). A few random things:

1. Konoko was a child when she was originally there. Probably not younger than 6. She doesn't remember much because of TCTF brainwashing at a young age. smile

2. The laser traps: Probably were normally spaced in the actual lab, but child-Konoko could pretty easily go under them, so they seemed high to her. Maybe the acid is real, too, but I suspect it was just sleeping gas in the _real_ lab.

3. The mini strikers: She in probably switching (whats the term, havent done any psychology for a few months) her size with the strikers size. So in the past, little Konoko feared the big Strikers (they probably weren't very nice to her, who knows...), but now they have to fear her (she is "bigger" than the average striker).

4. Shinatama: There are a few possiblities as to who Shinatama was in her past.

A. In the dream Shinatama is a mental projection of her past self. Boring, not _quite_ supported by the quotes (replace "Over here Konoko" with "Over here Muro" and its ok). Shinatama herself would actually be a copy of Konoko's brain engrams.
"The brain of an SLD is created from the patterns and engrams of a human brain, often forming a close bond or link between the SLD and its human "pattern."
(Quote from the manual)

B. In the dream Shinatama is Shinatama. She might have originally been made to watch over Mai and Muro. Seems like an underusage of a complex SLD, but meh.

C. Shinatama is actually a third sibling. Nowhere in the game does it rule this possiblity out. For one, this would make things like a mental connection easier. In fact, Konoko even says her relationship to Shinatama is like a sister (TCTF_II, IIRC). She might have been hurt either previously to the attack on the lab, or during it, at which point she was quickly enrolled into the Marionette program.
Chapter 2:

The SLD project is an attempt to recreate human physiology with artificial materials.

This is similar to the cyborg implant protocols developed for the "Marionette" project but it calls for a design that uses no human cells.

SLD technology has reached it's third design generation and prototype SLDs are in use in a wide range of industries including law enforcement, fire fighting, manufacturing, and aviation.

Of course, such a thing would be kept very quiet. Poor Shinatama (or could she be named Konoko? smile ) would be stuffed into a cyborg body and have been brainwashed along with Konoko (risky, either the two brainwashes reinforce eachother or they use the link as a life raft.) Of course, she ends up "remembering" quite a bit, but this might be unavoidable, due to her connection to the TCTF data network.

This option would explain why she was still able to feel pain. A loss of an important (though technically uneeded for a metal android) sensation might drive her insane. smile

I don't quite believe Shinatama is a real SLD anyways. She wouldn't have been able to survive the blast, she should have died. "An SLD breathes, eats, sweats and can feel pain." I think this means they can die, too, or why would they breath and eat? Shinatama was left alone for quite a bit of time, Muro probably was going to let her die.

How would Shinatama have survived the blast? Two possiblities:

i. Very very strong skull. wink
ii. Her physical brain wasn't located in the cyborg body (Marionette, remember?). If you encase the communication components strongly enough (easier than shielding a fragile brain). This could explain part of why Griffin didn't want to have to rescue her: he doesn't want to explain what is so odd with Shinatama if Muro got _really_ sadistic. And if all else fails he can order up a shiny new body for her, though it is obviously much easier to retrieve the old body, especially as they already had to go hunt down Konoko there.

Obviously, this is the most interesting possiblitiy to me. big_smile

5. The giant Shinatama room is more like an OR, where Konoko must have visited a few times to get the tissue needed for the Daodan OR the room where they did the operation (see 4C) on Shinatama.

6 Griffin was there, as leader of TCTF SWAT, he probably orchestrated the raid himself.

7. Kerr was probably also there...not shown in the level though.

8. Invisible people: They probably inflitrated the lab at first with Phase cloaks. Konoko might have seen two TCTF officers activating thier cloaks. I'm not going to go into the ninjas. They confuse me enough as it is. Maybe they are more Marionettes. Who says Hasegawa can't take on two super projects at once?

9. Dr. Hasegawa was either killed or taken by the Syndicate with Muro. Or made into Shinatama (kidding, even thinking about it causes a total brain melt for me...).

10. "I'm under orders to take you in. You're a rouge agent..."
Maybe it used to be...
"I'm under orders to take you in. You're a rouge scientist" (to Dr. Hasegawa...)
Whatever. Konoko is obviously mixing past and present there.

This hurts my head. I'm done for now. smile


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Gumby: i know
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#2 26/5/09 0:33

myplea1
Member
From: Ottawa,Canada
Registered: 25/5/09

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

well how long did it take to thing that theory up but very good indeed quite interesting i prob wouldve never thought of that


Awol

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#3 26/5/09 0:41

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Not long, and mostly as I was typing. Random flashes of thought ftw (or ftl?)


Iritscen: roll
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Gumby: i know
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#4 26/5/09 3:38

Stevinlewis
Member
From: Singapore
Registered: 25/3/09

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

myplea1 thats what i thought when i was doing that mission and its pretty weird and funny. Tho im the youngest ere i think ive seen alot of glitches and stuff cuz i always try to get into room and stuff with cheats messing up the game. I even saw Muro fighting but with his buddies and then abter awhile the monster form appears and talks. how cool is that. Also theres a bug in the atmosphereic processors cuz when at save point 2 or 3 when walking to the other bridge like from one side to another, theres this big empty space and when u go over an imaginary "line" the enemy spaawns right?

But i can keep going over the and they keep spawning! and i love to either use neck breaker or the shock gun which stuns them and i make them drop to their death below

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#5 26/5/09 6:51

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Hmmmm, lots of geyser-esque speculation :0)  It's funny you made this topic while I was preparing to make a similar one that discusses symbols in Dream Lab.  But mine wasn't going to address the idea of how the lab used to be, or elements from Konoko's past.  It's a good idea to consider that too, in addition to the points my topic will raise... whenever I actually make it.  I guess in the meantime I'll throw out some quick responses.

#1-3 are interesting and certainly possible.  I have to disagree with pretty much all of #4 (the, uh, first #4 wink).  I think that Shinatama was as artificial as the game says SLDs are, but that she still was quite human (a "silicon soul", as I put it on the wiki) for being based off Konoko's brain engrams.  I think that simply being as close to Konoko as she's been for the past decade or so would explain her presence in the level, combined with the fact that her information ("Your real name is Mai...") has led Konoko to discovering the truth, hence why Shinatama is "leading" her in the dream.  How does Shinatama survive the blast?  Who knows, but she does.  Even her ribbon is intact (guessing her clothes would be made from something durable so they didn't wear out over time).  It's always been hard to swallow that part, but I don't see how making her more human or removing the brain to a remote location helps explain why some of the body survives.

As for #6, I definitely think it's odd that Kerr does not show up in the Dream Lab.  My planned topic discusses the possibility of adding him back in.

More, later?


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#6 26/5/09 14:36

adorage
Member
Registered: 21/4/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

This is a very interesting topic. I've always interpreted the un-dangerous laser beams as a symbol of the ease with which Konoko masters most of the challenges her enemies, especially the laser beams themselves - those in level 2 are rather easy to avoid and in level 5 even if you pay no attention to them you hardly take any damage if you dash through the laser corridor.

As for the strikers, I agree with your theory. Also keep in mind that Konoko gets a "big head" after defeating all of them.

Maybe the acid in the corridor where Konoko walks in the beginning means that she can't go back to her old life ("where she once was") now that she's "ascended to a higher level" (because she's above the old corridor) of knowledge, now that she knows about her past.

Last edited by adorage (26/5/09 14:37)


You're all like... like big fat failure turtles!

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#7 29/5/09 8:39

jackoverfull
Member
From: San Mauro Torinese, Italy
Registered: 12/1/09
Website

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Very interesting…:)

I actually think to shinatama to a a "normal" LSD created using konoko's engrams, although the fact that she survived to her own self-destruct mechanism (and not to a SINGLE bullet in the head?!) appears quite strange…

Maybe the idea that she is actually remotely controlled by the tcft megacomputer (or somthing linked to it…) isn't that far-fetched: this would be why they easily tracked her and knew when konoko was close…

Although that would imply that she may still be alive, of course (dead body, but live mind)…
But in this case…why recover the body at all to link it at the assault pod?


"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"

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#8 29/5/09 9:04

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Well, they wanted something that knew how Konoko fought. Just as Konoko was insurance against Muro, Shinatama ended up being insurance against Konoko.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#9 29/5/09 14:19

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Dang nice observations.


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#10 17/11/09 9:47

Tudorge
Member
From: Romania, Bucharest
Registered: 26/10/09
Website

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Ahaha lsd

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#11 17/11/09 16:58

Muro
Member
From: England
Registered: 28/5/08

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Figured it was just a crazy nightmare mixed in with some of her imaginations based off the data she recovered from the state building.

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#12 1/8/10 12:05

Lukas Kreator
Member
Registered: 7/5/10

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Really interesting points. Specially the lasers thing...

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#13 1/8/10 17:46

TheCreature
Member
From: Michigan, USA
Registered: 15/12/09

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Cool.  This is why I like this place so much; you guys help add so much more depth to the game.

On Shinatama:  I lean towards the thinking that she was a 'normal' SLD, but being so close to Konoko caused her sentience.  As to how she survived the blast, what if the self destruct wasn't a conventional bomb?  I got the impression that it was more like a huge electrical pulse, designed to wipe computers and fry organics.  This also explains why the whole building doesn't come down on Konoko's head.

BTW, you mean #7 not #6 Iritscen?
for #7, didn't Kerr escape and bring the TCTF down on the lab?

Invisible ninjas.  The Syndicate watched Hasegawa closely.  I doubt they'd leave all that up to strikers.  They might've kept a few ninjas there to watch things more carefully, and they either were equipped with Phase cloaks, or Konoko is trying to make sense of the shadow dash.


The artist must bow to the monster of his own imagination.  Promoting the IRC and stuff for the RP: Rules Dice Map and RP

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#14 2/8/10 1:32

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Well, if you look at shini, all that survived was her head, if you look, really they just hooked her head up to some wires and hooked that up to the machine thing smile

And no, it wasn't EMP, if you look at the "win" picture after, I forget which level, where she goes back and sees shinitamas detroyed outer frame, so it was a "boom boom" not a zap


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#15 2/8/10 5:36

Sharoduinn
Member
From: UK
Registered: 8/6/10

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Mukade wrote:

Well, if you look at shini, all that survived was her head, if you look, really they just hooked her head up to some wires and hooked that up to the machine thing smile

I think there was a bit more of her in there, because I don't suppose the TCTF people would've installed parts that allowed her start walking and go after Griffin. And that's weird, because the wires coming out of 'zombie'-Shini were longer than her arms and legs when she was still intact. Or maybe Shini was so badass that she could control the wire-tubes and use them as legs...? hmm

Mukade wrote:

And no, it wasn't EMP, if you look at the "win" picture after, I forget which level, where she goes back and sees shinitamas detroyed outer frame, so it was a "boom boom" not a zap

If you go back to the room where she blew up you'll see flames and a black mark where she sat. sad

By the way, why is always that when I use cheats in the Dream Lab level, all kinds of freaky things happen, like cheats activating and deactivating by themselves, blood coming from a wall when I shoot at it... hmm


"Sorry about the mess"

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#16 2/8/10 12:40

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

LOL, that sounds creepy, but realistic, since your are in fact in a dream ^_^

Sharoduinn wrote:

And that's weird, because the wires coming out of 'zombie'-Shini were longer than her arms and legs when she was still intact.

Thats exactly my point, they took maybe a few chips of Shinni's outer casing or skin or whatever you want to call it, but the only thing they really needed was her computer that had stored all the information on Mai. So thye hooked that up to some wires, and attached it to the brain thing, which is why it's longer than her arms and legs. And I don't think she was meant to be able to walk on them, as you could see, she was very slow, and I'm assuming a bit unsteady.


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#17 3/8/10 9:03

Sharoduinn
Member
From: UK
Registered: 8/6/10

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

I wonder why Griffin freaked out like that when Shinatama started towards him hmm . Maybe the continuing stress was too much and he just lost it.
(You probably know this, but if you use the 'reservoirdogs' cheat Griffin and Shinatama will start fighting each other tongue . Neither one takes any damage, though.)

Anyone had any thoughts on the giant Shinatama lying in the dream lab with small strikers running around her, or the creepy flying Shinatama?


"Sorry about the mess"

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#18 3/8/10 9:34

adorage
Member
Registered: 21/4/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Sharoduinn wrote:

...blood coming from a wall when I shoot at it... hmm

What? Where? O_o I want to try that.

btw, giant Shinatama with the little Strikers kinda reminds me of Snow White (in her glass coffin) and the 7 dwarves. I have to go back and count the Strikers.

edit: well I count 3 strikers, so together with the 4 in the beginning that *would* make 7. Of course there are also 4 strikers chasing Shinatama a bit later but you could argue that they're the ones from the beginning since they're the same number and in the same area.

Last edited by adorage (3/8/10 9:40)


You're all like... like big fat failure turtles!

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#19 3/8/10 11:12

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Sharoduinn wrote:

...blood coming from a wall when I shoot at it... hmm

WOW

Never noticed it until now! wink I ever thought that was only your imagination but it's true!  big_smile

To see for yourself just shot at the wall where do you find the clocked ninjas. (didn't tested more after this point)

Last edited by s10k (3/8/10 11:16)

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#20 3/8/10 11:26

adorage
Member
Registered: 21/4/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Wow, it really does happen. 9 years of playing this game and I never noticed that.


You're all like... like big fat failure turtles!

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#21 3/8/10 11:42

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Yeah seems some kind of easter egg since you can't notice it with VGD. btw do you think that organic wall/tubes have any hidden meaning?

Last edited by s10k (3/8/10 11:45)

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#22 3/8/10 13:17

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

It's entirely possible you're looking for deeper meaning where there isn't any. Its possible the developers just put a bunch of stuff that don't really make any sense to make it seem like a dream. We can surely extrapolate on what they "could" mean, but as for trying to guess what it's SUPPOSED to mean, I'm not sure everything has deeper meaning..

@Sharo, he freaks out because his command should have stopped her. If you read one of the consoles, it sais something about them having to disable certain "minor" commands such as Griffen-Alpha-0, for a reason that I forget, go through TCTF HQ redux, and look through the consoles, you'll find it eventually. Obviously Griffen didn't know they'd disabled it, so when it didn't work, he was all like "wtf?"


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#23 3/8/10 17:17

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

The blood effect is coming from the AE blood mod.  Turn it off and there's just an odd burst effect when you shoot the wall.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#24 3/8/10 17:23

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

Oh I was referring to the burst effect, I tried it with normal Oni to make sure I was doing it correctly.

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#25 3/8/10 19:35

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Dream Lab and Shinatama

The burst effect is unusual, but if you turn on the Blood mod the wall also bleeds, which is kinda freaky.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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