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#1 11/2/08 14:59

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

(This topic is mainly directed at geyser, but hey, it's the community wiki, so anyone can add their 2 cents.)

Okay, I am still sifting through the wiki, but according to my reading, and something geyser said, the wiki was evolving alongside the actual modding projects, and the result was that the main location for the information about the modding being done was:

http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD:BIP

then things started to move to

http://wiki.oni2.net/ONK

as the project became known as Oni ni Kanabo.  Now the discoveries that were made (and documented in http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD), and that were going into ONK, are being rolled into the Edition.  The result is that things are a little disorganized.

Is this an accurate summation?  If so, here's my question: how can we consolidate this info?  Here's one idea:

- the database of binary info keeps its namespace, OBD
- the database of scripting info keeps its namespace, BSL
- all info related to modding using binary hacking or scripting gets its own namespace, maybe Mod, I don't know (each mod gets a page under Mod)
- the documentation for the Edition's mods is put under an Edition namespace, maybe ModSAE (not Mod:SAE) or SAE

As a feature (like breakable glass, which is at ONK:Glass currently) gets added to the Edition, it would move from Mod:(name of mod) to SAE:(name of mod).

I would recommend a subspace for the Edition like Mod:SAE, but we want to avoid a double namespace like OBD:BIP, which makes it impossible to list pages by namespace.  Go ahead, try and list the BIP pages that are in the OBD namespace.  Listing a single namespace like BSL works fine, but the double namespace things farks with the wiki, apparently.

Also, there is a confusing situation where it looks like OSL was originally a namespace, but was moved to BSL's namespace (rightly so).  But, there are still articles under OSL.  Confusingly, OSL is not a namespace listed in the Prefix Index even though it still has articles under it!


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#2 12/2/08 18:39

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

You're a bit confused about wiki namespaces. Namespaces are prefixes explicitly defined by our beloved bureaucrat, Alloc.
So just because there's a colon in a page's name doesn't mean the stuff in front of the colon is a namespace. Not at all.
The only namespaces I asked Alloc to add are: BSL (used to be OSL), OBD, Oni2, and ONK (considered for removal).
Actually I'm seriously considering getting rid of all those custom namespaces we made, and using categories instead.
The thing that's stopping me is that BSL and OBD are databases with a well-defined  scope (and they too interfere...).
Oni2 was originally intended to host tentative nodes for a new, non-linear storyline, gamebook-style. Thus, it will stay.

My advice to you is not to consolidate the info on BIP/ONK/SAE in any manner. Please leave that to the professionals.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#3 13/2/08 10:23

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

1. I wasn't really all that confused about namespaces, then; I was correct that OBD, BSL, and ONK are namespaces.

2. I wasn't going to do anything without getting your thoughts first, as we are talking about a major reorganization here.  It's just that it makes it harder to organize a sitemap or even my own thoughts on a subject matter covered in the wiki, when the wiki is in this state.  I haven't done anything yet, have I?  So don't worry about my taking unilateral action.  But, as I see it, there's two solutions to these organizational issues:
   A. You fix it yourself; that one's just not happening, and you've had a while to do it.  I understand that you may lack the time, but meanwhile, there's people here who do have the time to work on the wiki.  Like me.  Which leads us to:
   B. We agree on a fix and then I do it.  Because the issue is hampering my ability to work on the wiki.  Are we all supposed to stop working because you alone don't have the time to even answer a few questions about how things should be laid out?  I see how many hours you've put into the wiki; why not let someone else take some of the burden from time to time?

3. I am right that there shouldn't be anything under OSL: now, aren't I?  It's all supposed to be under BSL:, right?

4. I agree that categories are much more desirable than namespaces in most cases.  I personally would be inclined to leave the BSL and OBD namespaces alone, because they are, as you say, databases, and the current system works well for that information.  I have no desire to rework that part of the wiki at all.  It's a remarkable amount of work, and well organized for the most part.  But perhaps ONK can be replaced by a Modding category?  Also, Oni2 should definitely be a category.

What are your thoughts on these numbered points?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#4 13/2/08 12:40

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

2. A. It would take more time to lay out the modding philosophy to you than to edit the wiki myself.

3. Yes and no. OSL must die, but the way I see it now, there are barely enough pages to justify BSL.

4. ONK will be dealt with... Oni2 will remain a namespace, but there will also be an "Oni 2" category.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#5 13/2/08 13:07

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

2. A. It would take more time to lay out the modding philosophy to you than to edit the wiki myself.

Come now, if it's that complicated, then it's not a good philosophy smile  But I can see you like to keep your cards close to the vest, so I will do my best to wait on your regal presence to grace the wiki with its philosophy.

3. Yes and no. OSL must die, but the way I see it now, there are barely enough pages to justify BSL.

Barely, yes.  But enough.

4. Oni2 will remain a namespace, but there will also be an "Oni 2" category.

Um... pardon my ignorance, but what's the point of a namespace and a category for the same thing?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#6 13/2/08 13:22

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

"Come now, if it's that complicated, then it's not a good philosophy" Maybe, but do you really want me to tell you what modding is about before you get a feel for modding yourself?
You want there to be an accurate overview of the modding perspectives for the months to come. If they were crystal clear to me, surely I'd write them down myself in no time, right?

"what's the point of a namespace and a category for the same thing?" They're not the same thing. The category is for pages in the main namespace, and the namespace is for the actual, more or less self-contained project.

"Barely, yes.  But enough." And what about scripting being closely related to engine-related knowledge, or that of OBJC BINA and other binaries? Also, the BSL database still sucks big time as compared to OBD. It's pretty much unusable, and no one seems willing to contribute to it, even those who do have the time to work on the wiki.

OBD:Oni Binary Data moved to OBD over redirect: The main page of a namespace should be simply the namespace, not some page within itself. This will agree with how BSL is arranged, too.

So you are confused about namespaces. The [[BSL]] page is not related to the BSL namespace whatsoever: it's just a page in the main namespace called BSL. The main page of the OBD namespace has to be OBD:something.

Last edited by geyser (13/2/08 13:22)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#7 13/2/08 15:10

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

You want there to be an accurate overview of the modding perspectives for the months to come. If they were crystal clear to me, surely I'd write them down myself in no time, right?

If I understand this, you're saying that we don't know how various mods will be organized in relation to each other, looking far into the future (for instance, a breakable glass mod getting integrated into the Edition), so there's no way to organize things any better.  Is that what you're saying?  Because if something changes, it's not going to happen so fast that our heads will be left spinning.  There will be ample time to move a page here or there so the wiki properly reflects the current situation with all the mods.  In the meantime, we just have to make a page for each mod explaining how its done (like ONK:Glass), but outside of any namespace and prefix (to me they're the same, semantics aside).  Each page devoted to a mod gets put in the category Modding.  Bada-bing.

The category is for pages in the main namespace, and the namespace is for the actual, more or less self-contained project.

I think we're talking in circles on this one.  Let's leave it aside for now.

And what about scripting being closely related to engine-related knowledge, or that of OBJC BINA and other binaries?

What of it?  There's not so much overlap that articles under BSL can't link to a term in OBD from time to time.

Also, the BSL database still sucks big time as compared to OBD. It's pretty much unusable, and no one seems willing to contribute to it, even those who do have the time to work on the wiki.

I'm getting there, I'm getting there!  Just, slowly, and with lots of detours.  See [[Talk:Chapters]], for instance.

The main page of the OBD namespace has to be OBD:something.

Um... why?  Why can't it be exactly like BSL?  (And I know that [[BSL]] is in BSL's namespace, I just meant it doesn't have a "main page" under a prefix, so why should OBD?)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#8 13/2/08 17:08

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

"I think we're talking in circles on this one.  Let's leave it aside for now." We're not talking in circles, it's just that you're forgetting things I told you not a week ago.
The Oni2 namespace was intended for actual storytelling development, with a layout similar to a gamebook, with nodes and choices for a highly non-linear reading.
"Oni 2" would tag pages in the main namespace that are somehow related to the project but not part of the development process (e.g., public character overviews).

"I'm getting there, I'm getting there!  Just, slowly, and with lots of detours.  See [[Talk:Chapters]], for instance."
Congrats on Chapters, even if I hoped for more of an effort towards synthesis and muuuch fewer inaccuracies tongue

"Um... why?  Why can't it be exactly like BSL?" How typical. Why couldn't you leave it as it was? Didn't it do its job?
BSL looks the way it looks because I've been considering the namespace for deletion: hence the prefix-less [[BSL]].
"And I know that [[BSL]] is in BSL's namespace" Either you don't mean what you said, or you're still confused...

"Each page devoted to a mod gets put in the category Modding.  Bada-bing." Bada-bing, yes. And then what???
Surely you and I would get a lot more done if we didn't spend our time detailing the mods in progress on the wiki.
So categorizing glass (something I'll definitely have to take care of myself anyway) is counter-productive, right?
You have to wonder what use such-and-such piece of wiki documentation is to anyone but the editor? Who's it for?
Those categorized mini-mods: who'll play them, and is it a wise use of our time to allow people to play mini-mods?

I'll talk to Alloc. Probably ONK: will become AE:, and BSL: will probaly stay. As for the rest, I'll see what I can do.

Last edited by geyser (13/2/08 17:09)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#9 14/2/08 9:50

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: B I P >> O N K >> ? ? ?

"Oni 2" would tag pages in the main namespace that are somehow related to the project but not part of the development process (e.g., public character overviews).

So, if Konoko is going to be in Oni 2, her page would be categorized under "Oni 2"... is that right?  Of course, she can also be under other categories like "Characters" or whatever.  I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here.

Congrats on Chapters, even if I hoped for more of an effort towards synthesis and muuuch fewer inaccuracies tongue

'Scuse me?  What inaccuracies?  I built that (which is only a first draft, anyone's free to touch it up) by reading from the Quotes page.  (And what does synthesis mean?  I do link the first occurrence of every name to the page on that name.)

BTW, is it really worth putting those synopses, short as they are, under their own subpages?  What's wrong with the layout they have now under the Talk page?  We could just copy that to the Chapters page.  (Also, I am going to add something in the way of "added value" at some point, when I have the time, so it's not such a dry commentary.)

"And I know that [[BSL]] is in BSL's namespace" Either you don't mean what you said, or you're still confused...

Okay: is or is not the BSL page in BSL's namespace?

Surely you and I would get a lot more done if we didn't spend our time detailing the mods in progress on the wiki.

Well, yes, that's true.  I'm not suggesting we try to make a page for every script anybody's ever written and how it works.  That can be the responsibility of the scripter himself.  But documenting the binary hacks... if I'm not mistaken, that's more or less done already, I'm just talking about putting them in the right place.  I think your idea to change ONK: to AE: below will mostly accomplish that.

So categorizing glass (something I'll definitely have to take care of myself anyway) is counter-productive, right?

Well, categorizing is easy.  As long as we have planned out in advance what kinds of categories we'll have, categorizing Glass or anything else is a one-minute project.

Those categorized mini-mods: who'll play them, and is it a wise use of our time to allow people to play mini-mods?

You're the one who wants players to have lots of choice.  But also, documenting the mods (which, again, is already done AFAIK) allows newcomers who want to start modding to learn the ropes without asking endless questions.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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