BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

geyser · 10/01/12 20:10

About the Tower, it's like Ed said. It's not actually a mile high, more like half a mile (my tongue slipped). And yes, I managed to fit it into Oni's world space (which is precisely 409.6m in every direction), by shifting the ground down by 400 meters (and shortening the spire at the very top). It's a good building, actually (note that I've already done all the hard work of optimizing the geometry after SketchUp). Its halls are quite an interesting environment to furnish and to have a fight in: either something along the single-player storyline, like the "top" (official) part of BGi HQ, or something along the lines of "para-Oni" (i.e., missions where the protagonist is not Konoko but someone else - Casey, Kojiro, Karen, or even Mukade; please don't forget that randomly cool ideas can be developed that way, too).

For the colony level, it's the same story. Yes, the geometry is awfully messed-up, because apparently that's how SketchUp works: it generates vertices and faces on-the-fly, without ever asking the modeler; and points and edges don't always snap together nicely, far from it. I understand how you feel about that level, because I've looked at it very closely myself. But I also know from experience that all those glitches can be fixed (I've fixed all of the Tower, and I've already done quite some work on the colony, too). Simply put, I think that the colony level has such huge potential, that I volunteer to do all the dirty work on it. I have moments during the week when I just want to listen to music and do repetitive editing. I can totally spend some of those moments on the colony level. Now, if you say that you could model it (or something similar) from scratch, faster than I fix it - that may be true. What's your estimate for modeling a level of that complexity (without furniture, glass of doors - i.e., similar to what it looks like here: http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/levels/c … yworld.zip )? Because I think I'd actually "enjoy" fixing that level room by room - I'd get to know its layout (and potential) better that way.

The apartment shouldn't crash because of the camera. If anything, it's the fact that you merged the furniture into the environment, and suddenly blew the polygon count in some part of the level. But that's not too likely either, because no part of your level is particularly high-poly. So if it keeps crashing you have two options. Either debug your level by decomposing into sections and trying them one at a time; or, like Ed says, just release the level (the dat/raw will be enough; Mac folks can always convert them to dat/raw/sep if they need to). If nothing else works, we can always debug it engine-side, in an IDE.

My two cents about the apartment, plotwise: I don't think it makes sense for BGi to attack Konoko before she's gone rogue, and after she's gone rogue she cannot possibly continue living in her apartment. It's not even clear how she'll be able to change clothes etc, because Griffin sets her rogue status while she's on a mission, and the TCTF will have plenty of time to block her apartment by the time she gets there. Maybe she has stored some clothes in a locker somewhere. Anyway, that's not the point that I'm trying to make. The point is, the apartment that we're all looking at - maybe that apartment is not Konoko's (for whom it would make a lot of sense to live close to the TCTF HQ, anyway). Maybe it's Karen's apartment, or Casey's (who are much more ordinary cops that the heavily monitored Konoko; and maybe they've been in service long enough to afford slightly larger apartments than what we'd envision for Konoko). This could allow for some interesting development - for example, if Karen/Casey lets Konoko stay at the apartment, concealing her from Griffin, and then dies during the raid, while covering her escape. Of course this Lost Chapter could be used to fill in the gaps between Chapters 8 and 9, or between Chapters 10 and 11 - with or without some extra Chapters depicting her (vengeful?) quest against BGi. The Lost Chapters can also be between Chapters 11 and 12, or Chapters 12 and 13. Konoko's encounters with BGi would explain how she ended up on the top of the TCTF HQ building without anyone noticing. Maybe she managed to steal a VTOL from BGi, or even some kind of "phase-walking" device.

About the idea of a TCTF HQ (Re-redux) level - if I understand correctly, Ltemplar, you weren't quite convinced. But its meaning is actually very simple. The plot requires (or should require) that Konoko eliminates everyone in the bulding before confronting Griffin in the Omega Bunker. She must make sure that the building is empty and that no back-up will come. She had no way of cutting external communication before busting into Griffin's office, and yet she feels safe - maybe that's because there is no back-up force that can come to the TCTF's aid? In my view, the WCG has no army other than the sissy TCTF. Or, rather, BGi is WCG's (secret) army - developed in the past decade or so, specifically to counterbalance the Daodan threat. If we imagine that Konoko's destruction of the BGi HQ takes place before Chapter 13, and she feels safe going into the Omega Bunker - then that must mean that she hit them hard and early on, and hasn't seen a sign of them since, and so thinks that they don't have anything left to attack her with. That's where she's wrong of course (she doesn't always think clearly: ever since she lost Shinatama, it looks like the Chrysalis has started to "improve" her brains). In a last attempt to neutralize Konoko, BGi gather all their forces that weren't destroyed (with maybe just a small reserve force left) and arrive in time to surprise Konoko as she exits the Omega Bunker. Now, they have a strong advantage, but apparently she hit them so hard at the BGi HQ that they can no longer have a crushing superiority in numbers. Of course, it won't be easy for Konoko, either. It will be hellishly hard - at least as hard as BGi HQ itself. That's why I think this whole idea is appealing. I think it makes sense project-wise, and I think it's the most sensible way to start experimenting with BGi forces ingame, in actual mission-like situations - without having to wait for the development of the BGi HQ level, or even the apartment. Really, think of it - TCTF HQ is a great way to test an all-out assault of BGi against Konoko - complete with Iron Demon, area denial, robot soldiers, human troopers, (desperate) executives, VTOL, everything.

Short note about SLDs (I can't answer about everything right now, but the SLD thing is important). Samer tends to think of SLDs as mere androids, but Oni's plot shows that there are subtle personality issues whenever an SLD is exposed to violence (through their engram donor's eyes in Shinatama's case) and moral dilemmas. I think that this is one of Oni's most original and powerful concepts (along with the Daodan) and you should think twice before trivializing it and making an army of highly autonomous and agile SLDs. If anything, make only one or two of them, only to show their shortcomings. Same for the Hammer - like Ltemplar says, it can very well be introduced as an unfinished (and thus freakishly flawed) prototype (although frankly I still think the hammers have "mad scientist" written all over them; and it would allow us to develop the plotwise mention of the missing Dr. Navarre). (Oh and another thing mentioned in the plot, that can be used to good dramatic effect, are Flatline Zombies.)

The main force of BGi should, in my opinion, consist of something simple yet versatile and effective. And it appears to me that the hovering sentries, guard dogs and robot soldiers (human-sized, Murzilla-sized, Iron Demon) are already enough to form the backbone of an army such as BGi. BTW, when I say that the robot soldiers are remotely controlled, I mean that they receive tactical directions from a command center, not that someone controls their every move - that's what powersuits and mecha are for, and we don't have those yet (unless Samer's ninja robot is really a mecha? or the Iron Demon?).

Another two cents before I go to sleep (literally). I'm not sure we gave enough thought to the proper way for Konoko to infiltrate the BGi HQ. Right now I think that the best way is for her to be captured. She can then catch a glimpse of what the frontend looks like, but only briefly, on her way out. If the building is going down, it will be much easier to justify why the place isn't busy with office workers and security - and that's all for the better because too much small fry would probably be boring to fight anyway.

...

Final word of advice - don't forget that the storyline of a game doesn't have to be linear. There can be multiple branches, either complementary or mutually exclusive. There can be "alternative realities". And there can be storylines that happen to other characters (Kojiro, Casey/Karen, Barabas, Furies or Ninja...). Or storylines that happen long before Oni's events (TCTF mission on the Picasso Island, or some Striker raid on some place for some reason). Ideally, any of that can be polished to a degree where it looks like production-quality, and essentially becomes part of the Oni canon. So there doesn't need to be contradiction. Most cool stuff can be fit in. Maybe it won't all go into the main storyline starring Konoko, but there's plenty of room around Konoko's scope. Oni's story extends beyond Konoko.

P.S. Camera glitches in tight locations come in different flavors. Sometimes you can see through walls and that's something you can attribute to Konoko's sixth sense. But other times (especially when the space is very tightly packed), you can run into a quad or triangle that is in the way of the camera, and should be transparent, but somehow isn't. I think we can all agree that such glitches are frustrating. So the question is - how often does it happen in a specific location (apartment), and can it be fixed by tweaking the geometry? (or by adjusting the camera's position in relation to the player, which is possible)

Last edited by geyser (10/01/12 20:10)

Samer · 10/01/12 22:10

I'll reply to the characters part first as that is what concerns me the most.

Short note about SLDs (I can't answer about everything right now, but the SLD thing is important). Samer tends to think of SLDs as mere androids, but Oni's plot shows that there are subtle personality issues whenever an SLD is exposed to violence (through their engram donor's eyes in Shinatama's case) and moral dilemmas. I think that this is one of Oni's most original and powerful concepts (along with the Daodan) and you should think twice before trivializing it and making an army of highly autonomous and agile SLDs. If anything, make only one or two of them, only to show their shortcomings.

No Samer doesn't think them as mere androids.
1- However first excuse you gave why the hydra doesn't fit is cz it's outside of Oni's era .. hence my reply was that's not true, as we have tankers and shinatama and they of course can manage to 'make' them and have them even less flawed than Syndicates or TCTF.

2- What applies to shianatama doesn't have to apply all SLDs, to imply that shinatama went against griffin just cause that's what slds do, makes shinatama less unique and her connection with konoko less special don't you think ? I don't think it's a common SLD flaw but rather the result of her strong 'emotional' connection to konoko that was able to transcend the mere fact of her being an SLD and overwrite the commands of her makers.

Tankers on the other hand have a connection with Muro (would explain the pre beta tankers who looked like muro) and thus are as brutal and heartless and had no reason to turn against him so far ..
Hydras similarly share a connection with Sarai, and since the technology is more advanced than either TCTF or Syndicate they managed to perfect the "turn against master thing", though again i say i believe that's due to shinatama's and konoko's uniqueness and isn't a generalized SLD trait.

3- TCTF and Syndicate have SLDs .. surely fits and makes sense that BGi would as well, more advanced ones.

4- You tend to imply or think that the hydra concept was just something I threw out there cz I saw the hikari model and thought ouh cool ! i'll make that.
that's not true they also have a back story and I was trying to make it far before I saw hikari's photo. In all fairness few were even aware of hikari and i don't think anyone would have noticed had i not credited owldreamer for the inspiration in addition he changed her color scheme to black in his final update. first attempt at hydra Capture%20110.jpg back in 2009 http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … d=1311&p=6 post 136

5- Leus, another modder and a friend first pitched the hydra and hammer concept here : http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=1302
post 25, I adopted them and modified with his approval. http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=2403 is another thread with backstories for the characters. and again I say we can have different interpretations of what the BGI are .. mine follows the joint story events, not gonna ask u to read it as it's huge, but Sarai plays an important role in it and it also discusses the possibility of what happened to Konoko's dad and ties all characters and character histories and how the BGI had an influence in all of them. (it's also written on the wiki if that's what makes it more authentic.)

6- no army of SLD just the hydra(s) with 3 or 2 variants. I originally meant it to be 1 but ltemplar suggested to have it in variants, and I don't see an issue there, same as tankers (3 difficulties, casual and regular)

7- So really I don't see the problem with the hydra .. if term as SLD bothers u then then ok she's a female agent who has been technologically enhanced and trained by Sarai ...

Same for the Hammer - like Ltemplar says, it can very well be introduced as an unfinished (and thus freakishly flawed) prototype (although frankly I still think the hammers have "mad scientist" written all over them; and it would allow us to develop the plotwise mention of the missing Dr. Navarre). (Oh and another thing mentioned in the plot, that can be used to good dramatic effect, are Flatline Zombies.)

I agreed to ltemplar's suggestion as a compromise but that wasn't the original concept.
He's a trooper\agent who has been enhanced technologically with heavier armor and cybernetic parts as a more brutal force at the expense of speed .. so i think of him as another trooper in heavier armor, he fits in Oni as much as flying bots, spider tanks or alien looking troopers would, and the resemblance to Barabas isn't a bad thing .. more advanced form of Barabas if you want to think of him that way.
as for the mad scientist thing, sorry I just don't see him that way ... but as another compromise : ok he's a mad BGI scientists who started experimenting on himself and enhanced himself instead of the original concept that he was enhanced.
Dr. Navaree ? if by that u mean what we call james 2010-02-01%2015%2051%2021.jpg I have other plans for him as discussed in the joint story... and It's disturbing to me to think that's what happened with konoko's dad .. but as i said before we're all entitled to have interpretations and concepts and to make them .. but the hammer isn't and won't be that.

The main force of BGi should, in my opinion, consist of something simple yet versatile and effective. And it appears to me that the hovering sentries, guard dogs and robot soldiers (human-sized, Murzilla-sized, Iron Demon) are already enough to form the backbone of an army such as BGi.

In my opinion if you're going to spread the BGI on 3 or more levels those enemies would become repetitive and boring quickly. the syndicate have : 1. Strikers 2. Elites 3. Furies 4. ComGuys 5.Ninjas 6.Mad Bomber 7.Tankers 8.Barabas 9. Mukade 10.Muro ( not counting snipers, thugs, and custom syndicate such as Kojiro and Grey Fury)
but for the bgi it's going to be : Robots, Sentries and guard dogs, and other machines only? (except for the troopers very few melee encounters would be used in that case) the sentries and guard dogs are very powerful and quick only way to take them out would be weapons .. as much as I love Ed's guard dogs and Sentry droids I don't feel that's enough to make the BGI unique and interesting. 3 levels of little melee and repetitive types of enemies is quite boring - 1 time play for me and would be for other users i believe. I want users to look at them and feel it's new content and concepts and new characters with personalities and back stories not just an army of machines made to fill the gap ... till this day we all have a favorite syndicate character, their quotes and moves that make them so unique are what makes them memorable, least memorable are the droids, that's what i always try to achieve when making new characters, so know that as much as u are passionate about your BGI concept, I am too ...
and as i mentioned in an earlier post there's a comparison between the BGI characters and the Syndicate which i feel fits in Oni "right at home" as you say, and still feels familiar while being new and interesting at the same time.

BTW, when I say that the robot soldiers are remotely controlled, I mean that they receive tactical directions from a command center, not that someone controls their every move - that's what powersuits and mecha are for, and we don't have those yet (unless Samer's ninja robot is really a mecha? or the Iron Demon?).

the ninja robot is meant to be a robot force like ur trooper\robot concept,(let's just call him robot from now on so it's less confusing and mine as ninjabot and ltemplar's human armored agents as troopers) in this case I admit I don't have a background and concept for him except that i saw the model, thought it looks great and had much similarities to the oni bot, so it can be used as whatever BGi concept.
In the joint story we discussed the iron demon as a deadly brain with legs so it would make sense for it to control other bots.

Now to reply to the other stuff :

his could allow for some interesting development - for example, if Karen/Casey lets Konoko stay at the apartment, concealing her from Griffin, and then dies during the raid, while covering her escape. Of course this Lost Chapter could be used to fill in the gaps between Chapters 8 and 9, or between Chapters 10 and 11 - with or without some extra Chapters depicting her (vengeful?) quest against BGi. The Lost Chapters can also be between Chapters 11 and 12, or Chapters 12 and 13. Konoko's encounters with BGi would explain how she ended up on the top of the TCTF HQ building without anyone noticing. Maybe she managed to steal a VTOL from BGi, or even some kind of "phase-walking" device.

that's interesting, I like the VTOL and phase cloaking part to tie it with the TCTF HQ part.
I don't like the death of Casey\Caren though, Oni has enough deaths of mai's loved one with her uncle, mother, father(?), and shinitama .. casey will also make an appearance in the final battle instead of one of blackops tctf. that's my opinion.
the raid of the BGI on the apartment can be interpreted as they feel she's becoming a threat as they are spying on TCTF's data or they've been searching for her ever since her uncle hid her, and the encounter with Barabas brought her to their attention.

In a last attempt to neutralize Konoko, BGi gather all their forces that weren't destroyed (with maybe just a small reserve force left) and arrive in time to surprise Konoko as she exits the Omega Bunker. Now, they have a strong advantage, but apparently she hit them so hard at the BGi HQ that they can no longer have a crushing superiority in numbers. Of course, it won't be easy for Konoko, either. It will be hellishly hard - at least as hard as BGi HQ itself. That's why I think this whole idea is appealing. I think it makes sense project-wise, and I think it's the most sensible way to start experimenting with BGi forces ingame, in actual mission-like situations - without having to wait for the development of the BGi HQ level, or even the apartment. Really, think of it - TCTF HQ is a great way to test an all-out assault of BGi against Konoko - complete with Iron Demon, area denial, robot soldiers, human troopers, (desperate) executives, VTOL, everything.

I like that idea as an additional BGI appearance, makes sense to me, and as testing area, it would be easier to test them in the main game, however I think ltemplar may finish the levels before we finish the characters damn he's fast !
That place would also be appropriate for a second Sarai encounter instead of BGI HQ if the iron demon is to be used as main boss in the HQ .. Or vice versa. First appearance being ltemplar's apartment idea.
or for the BGI assasins sent as final effort to eliminate her (new version of jubei and akane)
i don't see the executives (old guys in suits heading the entire bgi) as combatant. The agents maybe.

Final word of advice - don't forget that the storyline of a game doesn't have to be linear. There can be multiple branches, either complementary or mutually exclusive. There can be "alternative realities". And there can be storylines that happen to other characters (Kojiro, Casey/Karen, Barabas, Furies or Ninja...). Or storylines that happen long before Oni's events (TCTF mission on the Picasso Island, or some Striker raid on some place for some reason). Ideally, any of that can be polished to a degree where it looks like production-quality, and essentially becomes part of the Oni canon. So there doesn't need to be contradiction. Most cool stuff can be fit in. Maybe it won't all go into the main storyline starring Konoko, but there's plenty of room around Konoko's scope. Oni's story extends beyond Konoko.

yes agree .. but for now, for this project that has already been started as a collaboration between ltemplar's bgi level idea and my bgi character ideas,and much stuff is already made for it, I don't see sense to change it ( too much).
but of course other concepts can be developed as well .. we're not going anywhere (hopefully )

anyway a question to geyser, the robot model u have which character did u use for matching body center rotations ? for the ninjabot I used the training drone and even tried striker, but i can't seem to get the bicep-wrist juncture in combat pose right, looks ok in idle pose though.

Last edited by Samer (10/02/12 03:10)

ltemplar · 10/02/12 00:10

Dr. Navearre- Isn't this mad scientist from the comic book?Ended up being captured in the BGI lab as another project(or pet)..is quite..well lets say "disturbing" for him.That could be something interesting, if you provide good enough story line for him..

I like the concept that Samer bring which thous hydras.I think that 3(no more) of them as personal guard/experimental L.S.D.'s brainy/emotional connected to the Sarai. That could be nice addition.

For the rest ...Samer you need only change L.S.D. to "mere" androids(in story) and wala.The critique will gone forever...

Geyser about your idea regarding to Apartment....level..That is really interesting idea..Death of Karen(if she isn't already- remember the training sequence on hard settings?)And then capture of Konoko(This time rather Mai).could be also interesting concept(beaten by Sarai in the first confrontation..then rises as phoenix from the ashes later..hmm...interesting)We should discus about this more i think, because Your concept..but also My are logical and well prepared...

The concept which will take part in the end of the HQ RE-redux level...that she destroy all BGI ....well that's stupid ....
Also the think that WGC only have sissy TCTF for usage as their main force(BGI secret army)..that's all what all mighty WGC can afford?No no...thats to naive.
More discussion about that mater is needed.
As the test ground.. well maybe.

PS. Geyser as referring to your oni galore writing..."Then again, is it really such a good idea to allow two weapons in the inventory? I've always thought one weapon was plenty enough, and I've even considered making all weapons un-holsterable, so as to encourage the player to drop them rather than run around at full speed, carrying powerful guns in magic pockets... (to be continued on the talk page --geyser 15:20, 30 September 2012 (CEST)"- I don't want to add two weapons to the inventory. My idea was to have one weapon holster-able (light weapons as pistol or black adder or Van der graff or other) while the second one is holden in the hands(similar to adding it as F7 button).The difference is that i want the ability for player to PICK UP that second weapon when she have the handgun in holster, no like in the original game, that she limitedly drop holstered weapon when picking up/disarming another.And I want all Rifle-like weapons non-holster-able. Thats all.

PS. still doesn't have that account on oni2net.
PS.2 Samer how long usually is taking you to match all UVW maps, models parts, then texture (excluding importing)to bring custom character to game?

Last edited by ltemplar (10/02/12 01:10)

Iritscen · 10/02/12 05:10

ltemplar, I approved the wiki account you applied for two days ago, did you not get the email?

ltemplar · 10/02/12 07:10

I get some E-mail but there was nothing more...I cant' log in in any form(I don't received any password, nothing just E-mail that something was about click proper site-thats it.)

Iritscen · 10/02/12 08:10

Hmm, I can't remember how the process is supposed to work from your perspective. Okay, let's take this discussion to email then, I'll mail you now.

ltemplar · 10/02/12 08:10

I haven't received any mail yet

Last edited by ltemplar (10/02/12 08:10)

Iritscen · 10/02/12 15:10

ltemplar wrote:

Samer send me this bot. I will try to reduce this poly cunt(Dae will be perfect..you can even kept textures if you wish)or see if he doesn't have any other added/hidden parts...

Hmph. I sent you the email a couple minutes after I posted this morning, so if you don't have it, and it's not in Spam, maybe you could try emailing me? My address is my user name @ yahoo.com.

EdT · 10/03/12 19:10

I moved all the posts relating to the BGI robot to this thread http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=2440

Since the discussion dealt more with 3D modeling techniques and issues, I thought a separate thread will be better. I chatted with Iritscen and he agreed with the move

geyser · 10/04/12 06:10

It's a good thing I didn't respond to anything else than this robot character in my last few posts (the ones that were moved). Oh, wait, I did. There were quite a few sentences in those posts dealing with Ltemplar's XSI issues. Oh well.

Actually, this thread tends to address a lot of stuff at once: modeling (both characters and levels), engine limitations (with new gameplay in mind), general frustration with XSI, and backstory development. I'm not sure if all that stuff could be separated, but this thread is already one hell of a joyous mess, that much is certain.

Last edited by geyser (10/04/12 06:10)

Samer · 10/04/12 06:10

title : BGI Characters and Levels Discussion by Samer.
So yeah all posts are on topic for me

Samer · 10/04/12 06:10

ltemplar for the BGI heavy bot updates please post them here when u have them

ltemplar · 10/04/12 06:10

You mean..? Ok I will post when ready.But when I get to legs part..the UVW become real maze there...so i will probably "modify" some parts of this UVW (example: for what purpose you need exactly the same texture for 6 cloned objects? It's a waste of UVW space).There are more "flowers" like that in this model..

Geyser i read your tutorial...about non animation pose..Isn't simpler to rotate the bones manually..and then match the new parts? I also haven't fully "catch" this sentence where you describing moving bones(pelvis) in axis coordinates...I understand that this is needed for character to have legs on the ground not below it..Is that what you mean?

BTW..this is what i get when exporting apartment(no BNV yet..only for testing how it will be presented in game)

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<COLLADA xmlns="http://www.collada.org/2005/11/COLLADASchema" version="1.4.1">
<asset>
<contributor>
<authoring_tool>Softimage|XSI Mod Tool version 7.5.203.0</authoring_tool>
</contributor>
<created>2012-10-04T09:12:45Z</created>
<modified>2012-10-04T09:12:45Z</modified>
<revision>1.4.1</revision>
<unit meter="0.1" name="decimetre"></unit>
<up_axis>Y_UP</up_axis>
</asset>
<library_cameras>
<camera id="cameras_0" name="cameras_0">
<optics>
<technique_common>
<perspective>
<xfov>53.638000</xfov>
<aspect_ratio>1.333333</aspect_ratio>
<znear>0.100000</znear>
<zfar>32768.000000</zfar>
</perspective>
</technique_common>
</optics>
<extra>
<technique profile="XSI">
<XSI_Camera>

But this definitely tels that plug in is working(for static objects) as it should..for rigged..i must check..again..what can be wrong..But I'm close

BTW. I cant remove camera from xsi when exported. But the rest is exactly as described.. Now i must create AKEV , AISA..etc to make this building presented in game

Last edited by ltemplar (10/04/12 07:10)

Samer · 10/04/12 07:10

the model is not mine .. I didn't modify it in anyway .. I found the UV maps messed up in several ways that's why i stopped trying to texture it a long while ago. I only resized or rotated the uv map of the chest and head (part which i started to texture cz it was upside down and inverted)

geyser · 10/04/12 07:10

Ltemplar, you can optimize the UVs on that robot (the heavy one) however you like, as long as you don't tweak the geometry. Apparently Samer didn't tweak the geometry either. My impression is that the geometry is OK (except for the spikes), it just needs texturing. Of course you can choose to texture/UV only one finger, for example, and then let all the fingers use the same UVs. Or you can make it so that all three fingers have slightly different texture detail, so that individual UVs for the three fingers are justified. You can make the right/left texture symmetric, or you can have text/logos/etc. That's up to you.

About the character tutorial (not really written as a tutorial, just a documentation of what I did) - yes, the pelvis is translated upwards for the feet to match the ground, AND for the pelvis to match the posing character's pelvis. The important part here is that the legs of the new character should have about the same size and proportions as that of Oni's male humanoids - because the new character will use Oni's animations for general locomotion, and we want the animation of the legs to be consistent with the motion of the pelvis, at least approximately, at least in some reference poses. So, if the centers of the pelvis bones coincide in the upright pose (for the new model and the posing character), then the soles of the feet should coincide too. If the rest of the proportions differ a bit (hip width, thigh/shin/foot ratio), then it's too bad, but it won't affect the result much.

As for rotating the posing character's limbs freely (with the mouse), that's possible, but I prefer not to. I think it's more precise to enter rotations/translations/scaling in the Transform box. When matching new character models to a posing Oni character (or rather the other way round), there aren't many values to enter, because rotations/translations/scaling mostly occur along one axis only. So it's both precise and fast. Then again, that's just how I do it. You can have your own approach, and transform stuff with the mouse if you like, as long as you don't end up with some sloppy alignment (which may seem minor for the dummy pose but may look wrong for some extreme animations ingame), or with some left/right inconsistency.

You can exclude the camera from the DAE by selecting only the meshes, and then checking the "Selection Only" box during export. It's indeed weird that level geometry exports fine, but characters don't. As far as Crosswalk is concerned, they're all the same thing. Are you sure you use Crosswalk for both things - and which version of Crosswalk is it, by the way?

Last edited by geyser (10/04/12 07:10)

ltemplar · 10/04/12 08:10

Crosswalk version 3.3

I'm also using transform box when matching parts.

Samer · 10/04/12 08:10

Ltemplar .. Convert an oni trbs to dae .. Example konoko-body-high (not sure that's its name) then import this dae to xsi .. Then export it again to dae without changing anything .. And link it here I'll test it in my xsi .. If it also gets messed up then there's something in ur export , if not then there's something wrong when u're making ur custom models .. U mentioned that u use blender for making them then u import them to xsi .. Maybe something is going wrong in that step.
I would also suggest a clean uninstall and install of autodesk ... Removing all additional plugins.
btw this is outside of the topic and why our posts were moved in the first place.. For ltemplar's xsi issue let's discuss it either on the xsi tutorial thread or the new ninjabot xsi modeling, exporting issue which has the other posts related to the issue anyway.
Actually Ed if u quote ltemplar's part abt his issue and post it into the other thread and then move geyser's and my reply to the issue to the other thread, it might be better so related posts are together.

and from now on we'll use this to discuss character and level progress and ideas..

Last edited by Samer (10/04/12 08:10)

geyser · 10/04/12 08:10

Ltemplar, Crosswalk 3.3 is quite old. You should get a newer version. (the one with the fewest known bugs seems to 2012.5)
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/it … D=12544121

Other than that, please follow Samer's instructions (I suggested the same thing earlier, BTW). Extract a character from Oni to DAE (from TRBS or from ONCC, with a specific anim, or zero pose, or "-noanim" pose, whatever). See how it looks after it's imported into XSI. Then export from XSI to DAE and reimport into XSI. See if it's messed up. And share this last DAE with us, so that we can see if it works for us.
As for Blender, are you really using it when working on existing models, or only when designing new models of your own? If I understood correctly, all your work on the "NinBot" and "heavy" has been in XSI?

ltemplar · 10/04/12 08:10

no problem I will do it right away..wait 5 or more minutes

Hire you are.The Fem_cop..exported from my xsi- see if it's still messed up

http://www.mediafire.com/?unphzx94bttgeu1

I'm using blender for creating my stuff, or recreating existing(but that is rare )-For modify NijaBot I used XSI

BTW. I'm downloading now the new version of crosswalk - maybe this is the source of this entire mess..
Bleeder have nice futures like for example mentioned sculpture modifier , or Own game engine...with are good additions for testing results of newer generation games(like Earth 2160 for example) but XSI is better for Oni...so maybe I will start modeling stuff in it.

Ps. And how the model is presented in your XSI?

Last edited by ltemplar (10/04/12 09:10)

Samer · 10/04/12 09:10

I won't be able to test it till like 7 hrs sorry. Maybe Ed can take a look meanwhile.

EdT · 10/04/12 09:10

Blender uses z-up, that is why your dae's rotations are messed up. If you can use only XSI, that would eliminate the rotation issues.

Edit: The female cop looks good, no rotation issues Looks like your problems are solved.

Last edited by EdT (10/04/12 09:10)

ltemplar · 10/04/12 10:10

YES!!! .I now know exactly how to export using selection only tag .Silly me..but I select ALL(left click) Parts instead of only pelvis by right muse button(parent and all children's)..So in the end process it kills all parenting ..thats why I have this mess in the game..knowing this rest will be like "walk on the park". - I told you that this will be probably one of thous things that are simple..but every time glimpse from your attention...HAHA..so much time wasted because of this....

Last edited by ltemplar (10/04/12 10:10)

Samer · 10/04/12 10:10

Mmm i don't think that's it .. I also select all by Left click and i have no problems. It's probably like Ed said due to you using blender.
in the cop fem u didn't use blender so it was correct. The others u used blender somewhere along the way.
Only for ur hammer animation the parenting was killed .. for the models the parenting was there but scaling and rotation were wrong, in addition to having 'node' stuff which were also parented.

ltemplar · 10/04/12 10:10

I have this problem in XSI - it's solved now.I'm not talking about the blender exporting or anything..Previously i can't even export originally imported model from oni into XSI..but this solve this problem..That blender mess up is still in present, but add last I know how to properly import it to XSI and then export to oni..A mill stone in this process.

Samer · 10/04/12 11:10

Geyser for the Bgi Heavy-Bot .. Did u have any moves in mind for him ?
i was thinking elite meets swat with some tanker in there.
example :some elite kicks, swat punches (without lion punch and lion axe kick), tanker dodges, swat run throw, toned down static throws (com guy or striker), heavy but not too much as the elite, and strong but also not overpowered. As i also think he will be a common enemy ..

Last edited by Samer (10/04/12 11:10)

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