Oni Central Forum

A forum for the Oni community

You are not logged in.

#51 15/9/12 17:46

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

ltemplar wrote:

Give me a break will ya?

hmm u asked what u could add or improve and i'm just making suggestions u don't have to  add them, they're just ideas, and i'm just excited about the level, maybe too excited. So nvm.

Last edited by Samer (15/9/12 17:49)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#52 15/9/12 21:47

EdT
Moderator

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

As far as I know 80K for empty level. 

4000+- Oni units along the xyz. so 4000 4000 4000 and -4000 -4000 -4000 are the ranges for a level, and level models can be quads.

For stairs, you will also need to make an invisible ramp along the stairs for Konoko to run.  If you use a distinct texture for stairs and invisible ramp, in the level importer you can assign the stairs texture as no character collision and the ramp as invisible.

Movable objects, your idea should work.  If you wanted to move a crate to block the laser triggers, that would not work,  laser triggers only collide with environments and players smile

You may also need to raise the height of the rooms.  A standard height for a room is too low for Oni, think about how high Konoko can jump.

Door widths needs to be wider than normal for AI's pathfinding grids.  You might find it helpful to extract the AKEV from a level such as the lab, then measure the door width and height for reference.  Then you can use Oni's door objects, just change the textures for them.

Offline

#53 16/9/12 4:31

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Hmmm....Ok I will increase the hight of the rooms.

+- 4000 in every direction so full longitudinal can be 8000(4000 in x for example+ 4000 in -x = 8000 in general length).Or i get something incorrect? And what is Oni unit? it's a centimeter or decimeter in (EU) units scale , or maybe in inches , and feet units(US)?

I see that you making all levels in Google Sketchup(from the tutorial you provided).Do any program will be god for making levels(and all parts like BNV , etc) or i need to use the Google Sketchup for creating thous?

I don't rely understand the door issue. Its only the door I need to change for path finding grids to work, or the entire opening space between the walls(make it wider)?for example in tutorial I read:"To make the doors, I created a 6' x 9' rectangle and used the push/pull tool to make the opening."- but also saw that not all doors in oni use this scale. Example: Manufacture plant door, when you entering the production area ,its much wider than thus units.
Also how thick the walls can be? Is this also produce unknown paths findings grids, or this is without no mean?

EdT.last question.. Can i put other object(smaller) on bigger. Like bottle or glass. Or I need merge them firs and then export as single object?

Sorry for so many questions, but i want to know this before I start finishing level(everything can be now easy correct , later this will be a hard task...).

EdT.. with version of Sketch up You are using..Normal or Pro? I don't see any COLLADA exporter there. Where did you find it?

Last edited by ltemplar (16/9/12 5:13)

Offline

#54 16/9/12 4:54

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

The opening of the door. the doors in game they already had the path finding grids fitted, for new levels u need bigger openings.. And i guess u'll resize the actual door if u get it from game.

I don't think it will be a problem if u have several smaller objects .. Or u could merge them too ..


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#55 16/9/12 5:19

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

"....for new levels u need bigger openings.. ..."
How big is big enough? 1,5 meters width 2,5 high..or bigger? Because ..I'll probably need to increase all dimensions for the entire apartment then...

EDIT1.

6'=2,20 meters
9'=3,25 meters

This apartment will be then huge ass hell...Is there no option to create smaller doors with openings not colliding wit P.F. grids?

Edit2

I want the apartment to be small..because this is everything that she can afford. Small place where she can rest after work, exercise a lite bit . the hidden room is there to show that Konoko is a hacker to...(Shinatam know about her lite secret but keep it hidden from Griffin's ayes). Making everything witch this scale will simply kill that effect.
Maybe I will need then create another apartment for her, smaller this time to fit this scale?And the existing one will be for higher class person with is living on upper floors- the apartment when Konoko can fight with Sarai for example?
Tel me what you think.

Last edited by ltemplar (16/9/12 6:49)

Offline

#56 16/9/12 8:07

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

i don't understand why u are complicating things .. just make the opening of the door a bit wider than u have currently .. as edt said compare it to existing doors. that's it and roof higher. why change everything else ..  i think it would be fitting to fight sarai on the roof ..
i may have misunderstood myself i think edt meant they should be wider than normal real life doors not wider than original level doors.

Last edited by Samer (16/9/12 8:09)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#57 16/9/12 8:43

EdT
Moderator

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Here is a rough estimate, my China model is 2,640ft or 804 meters in total length, so 1 meter equals 10 Oni units.

XSI is the program best used with Onisplit.  When you extract the AKEV from a level, you will also see the BNV file.  Take a look at that.  Basically a BNV has quads that represent rooms, the quads hold the pathfinding grids.  A ghost quad (vertical quad) connects the room quads so the AI can cross the bnv when patrolling or told to go to another flag.  In melee mode AI's can cross BNVs even if there are no ghost quads between them.

In making your level, my suggestion is to examine an original level from Oni and measure the wall, floor thickness.  Door width and heights. Any aspect of the level you want to duplicate, that is your best guide.

Objects or furniture in Oni can be composed of several items.  A table can be made up of the top, legs, bottles, vase, however, each item is exported as an OBJ file.  Oni uses the OFGA file to link the items or M3GM together.

Sketchup: File/Export/3D Model Format Collada   Actually the free version of Sketchup can only export as Collada, no OBJ or other formats.

I suggest that before you spend more time on the level, import what you have into Oni to see how it looks, the scale and so on.  I can help if you need it.

Offline

#58 16/9/12 10:16

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Basically this is exactly what I'm talking about...All oni vanilla rooms are high..but for apartment this will be to high..I made another example of apartment to show .

Here is example(this apartment turned out to be somehow more suited for Konoko needs... )
Take a look..

overall wiew.
newkonokoapartment.jpg
Konoko multifunction room
newkonokoapartmentclose.jpg
Outside(removed balcony..added more exposed  cornice)
newkonokoapartmentutsid.jpg
shower scene..
newkonokoapartmentclose.jpg

You can easily notice that hight of the rooms is to big..but the rest can be accepted.

tell me what you think.

And thanks for the help..so XSI is he best...that was what i want to know.
BTW EdT witch version of this program..(Google Sketch up) with is for free have this exporter(I'm using V 6.0) and only have exporters to Earth 3.0, 4.0.

Edit1
"i may have misunderstood myself i think edt meant they should be wider than normal real life doors not wider than original level doors."
I mean opening in the tutorial he wrote. He also mentioned there that the hight must be bigger than in normal/real live doors for the PF grids to work..thats why i need to create completely new apartment.The old one will be modified to Higher class citizen apartment..(scale issue).
I'm not complicating things...Believe me.

Last edited by ltemplar (16/9/12 10:26)

Offline

#59 16/9/12 11:55

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

I mean couldn't u just increase the walls height and door widths and leave everything else same size ?
I liked first apartment more .. More rooms equal more surprises more guys hiding .. But i guess this one could work too, where's the bedroom ? Only thing i'd suggest is split the multifunctional room to make a bedroom or a separate training room .. But ur decision.

Last edited by Samer (16/9/12 11:55)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#60 16/9/12 12:41

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

To split something..you need firs enough free space? tell me where i will put all thous rooms?Another thing is that story is taking place in NEO TOKYO again... so Japan minimalism will be showed here even more. Multifunction cage..in one word..This apartment is big if you take in consideration that Konoko is alone living young woman. Not for the family.And it's more matching for sentence that "she can afford it".

"I mean couldn't u just increase the walls height and door widths and leave everything else same size ?"- in sens of esthetics's will simply not work. the apartment must be made(or creating fill) that is functional..Increasing only door size. or openings, will not do the trick..doors bigger than walls simply look odd.Even putting aside functionality..you will be thinking and saying to yourself "something isn't right here".

And making more apartment's for Konoko to explore its my goal anyway, so this is not a waste of time. The only thing that look odd is the hight(3,25 meters normal apartments are 2,5 high- from floor to celling - doors are not bigger than 2 high 1,2 meters width) The width could be accepted but this hight is simply abnormal to much...
That's why I want to know is there a way to simply reduce this high, without killing PF grids?

Last edited by ltemplar (16/9/12 12:53)

Offline

#61 16/9/12 13:12

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

''Tell me where i'll put all these rooms'' the multifunctional room is too big, split it .. It has enough space to make a bedroom and a training room. What's the room with the brown boxes ? Opposite to the kitchen .. Seems like a wasted space to me .. That space with the big ''multi room'' can easily make a small bedroom, a small training room and a small living room if u remove the wall (small cz she can't afford it) so there u've got the space.
it's not a matter of affording .. the furniture can be simple, but usually apartments in a building on top of each other all have same size and wall layout, only difference is the furniture and what each room is ...
that's what i think .. Again u asked for our opinion

And u're taking things too realistically no one expects it to look like a real life apartment .

Abt heights i don't think they affect the grids only thing is she might not be able to jump too high which is ok and realistic .. The closed rooms and offices in tctf hq don't seem too high for me.

resizing the entire original room .. With enlarging the furniture and everything won't that make it look like it's for a giant ? With large chairs and bed and all, that's why i'm saying keep furniture same size only increase the walls then move the things around...

maybe konoko got a bonus big_smile or maybe the tctf gave her a nice apartment or maybe she was left money and kerr has been funding her secretly .. U can presume whatever u want when u're making a new concept .. One could argue that she lives in tctf hq .. So they can keep a close eye on her .. Or that she doesn't get paid as she was raised by them ..

btw where does it say where oni takes place ?

Anyway .. Any progress on the hammer ?


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#62 16/9/12 13:48

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

No i I'm not taking everything realistic..only trying to create the fill that everything is right there...
And I don't mean real japan.. but classic anime style(Oni is based on it ).

Right I can make even super futuristic multi floor apartment ..and that also will be acceptable , but we want to make a person here.The apartment, her thinkings..even that fact she is riding the motorcycle(and not a car ) tell about her personality.
Thous small details are rely important here.
All thous lite things piece by piece create the story more believable.

I will consider this splitting thing...but this will be then rely small rooms...
Now.. thing regrading the previous apartment..I will increase the space there..not make all things scaled up, this will include walls doors windows etc..not the furnitures. It will become much bigger..but not make for giants.
Why you not fill that tctf HQ rooms seems not to be high, because there is a lot of space in the rooms itself.. make them smaller..and then you will notice this.


BTW. the progress on Hammer is slow but steady..I was forced too recreate some things(not matching to the skeleton..etc)..i have something like 45% Uvw mapped...I wrote you the note in one of the posts, about him.

EDIT 1
Its seams that EdT was incorrect in putting statement about the high for openings. From my exterminating of regional state building the dimensions of the door(smallest) is 2,4 meters and the width i 1,5 meters the thickens is 0,08(0,0787) meters (so its a lite big larger than normal but no enormous like 6' or 9'). The walls have different thickens so its seams that thickens is not really important there.
What make me feel a lite unconformable , is the fact that windows are single planes not a normal object but ..and the number of BNV.
Its god to know how this thing operate now.

EDIT 2

Now it looks a lot better.(witch proper hight)
slookbeter.jpg

EDIT 3

Ok i made two apartments in proper scale+added light curses

with lights
twoapatmentslights.jpg
without lights
twoapatmentsnolights.jpg

With one will be better for Konoko apartment?

Last edited by ltemplar (16/9/12 17:52)

Offline

#63 16/9/12 18:02

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Update on apartments(post above)

Offline

#64 16/9/12 19:22

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

u mean which apartment ? the original one to the right .. as i said the one to the left looks disproportional like it's a gym not an apartment and that wasted space near the entrance is useless what is it supposed to be ? the multifunctional room is too big and not realistic it just looks like a big empty hall doesn't give an apartment feel and we have enough big empty halls in oni .. as i said u could easily make 3 or at least 2 rooms from the wasted space near the entrance and that big room there .. with the one on the left there's no much exploration .. the bgi would be in that big room and she'll just fight them there .. there's no sneaking around or rooms to explore or place to hide items and easter eggs.

so i really hope u use the one to the right again as konoko's apartment. it was great first time u posted it ! and u had a good idea for using the balcony .. i'm so disappointed that u suddenly decided not to use it cz u just had to increase door and ceiling height ! the one to right looks fine to me now and more suitable for konoko not too big for her at all

if u just add a wall to split the multifunctional room u could use it as an apartment for another citizen.

Last edited by Samer (16/9/12 19:33)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#65 16/9/12 22:05

EdT
Moderator

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

I must have measured a larger door when I used the 6ft x 9ft figures smile

Sketchup 8 exports as Collada.  But again, I use Sketchup because it was easy for me to learn.  Since you are doing well in XSI, keep using it.

What are the overall dimensions (width, length) of the apartment?  I just wonder how it will be fighting in such small quarters...  Before going too much further, try importing your apartment into Oni and see how it works.

Offline

#66 17/9/12 0:57

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Ok..will do..

Yes I like the original more(because it have all needed parts for encounter).So it's decided.

"I just wonder how it will be fighting in such small quarters..."- Like in Close quarters combat CQC? Sbg will be pretty dangerous and handy there.Others less but still useful.

I will try to import it witch other parts then...(exploring only the apartment will be a bit boring)..I will also add some textures to see that they are imported correctly.

Last edited by ltemplar (17/9/12 3:29)

Offline

#67 17/9/12 11:33

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Update on the level...

konokobuilding.jpg

Red - Konoko Apartment
Green - 7 Apartments with can be explored(have furnitures etc)
White are apartments without furniture(but still playable- have walls etc)

Ass you can see going there could be much difficult than you think
iamthepigeon.jpg

For now i have 55k tris for entire level(without furnitures)
Still 25k for the surroundings

level is on the plane 500 m x 500 m

Base uvw map added.. now i matching stairway and elevator shafts, but before I add them tell me what You think(underground garage not finished at the moment(remember intro scene...i plan something there smile)

Think to do:
-BNV
-Ghost quads
-scripts
-enemys.
-surroundings(cars, lamps, other buildings(low ploy), etc- construction site for another wing- ???)

Better uvw and textures for furnitures(now its only a base)

Tell me what you think. Maybe some suggestions?

Last edited by ltemplar (17/9/12 11:42)

Offline

#68 17/9/12 12:18

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

In theory .. Great. But as Edt said u really should do a test in oni NOW!. What if it doesn't work in oni ? What if there's something major u have to change .. So test what u have now, before u put any more time into it.

also why so many white apartments .. Will u have to explore all of them ? That may get borring and time consuming .. I'd rather that some of the apartments that have nothing be closed and cant be entered as this will be very confusing for the player to know which apartment to enter .. And i think that the ones right next to konoko's be green .. And it's a bit too big more than we'll need so maybe remove some of the lower floors ? Cz as i said will be really time consuming and confusing to go thru all of these...
14 floors with 2 aprtments each then the opposite side that's 56 apartments ! Too much.
a 10 floor building with eiher no opposite apartments or no side apartment is more than enough.

Last edited by Samer (17/9/12 12:47)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#69 17/9/12 12:31

uroboros
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

this building is really big!
suggestions? hmm it looks good but it may be not futuristic enough for Oni.

Offline

#70 17/9/12 12:57

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Well.. i tested apartment:

1- Only walls floors etc
2- witch furniture(some minor changes)
3-witch doors open
4-witch consoles

alone and was working fine..So i decide to make proper level

EdT wrote that maximum for the level is 80k without furnitures.55 is close but still far

Still thinking that removing some walls in unused apartments will reduce this even to 20k so this is small number for the level.
For comparison the Regional State Building level... have something around 37k witch all furnitures etc.

About futuristic look.. not all components are added. I still haven't decided yet ..if everything should be explorable(the entire building have 84 apartments(on both sides)) 8 will be explorable(for now).. when I finish it it will be more futuristic..but I will take your suggestion in to consideration.

Samer.. you are right.. But tell me how i will suppose to explore it without a stairs?

EDIT 1

orginallevelwireframe.jpg

EdT ..Maybe I simply not getting all what you wrote in your tutorial , but look at thous wire frame of the regional state building level...Especial look closer to the street surrounding RSB. The single polygon ass the component of the street is a lot larger than yours showed as sample in tutorial. but wider...Maybe the problem with failing under ground witch huge quads is not rely the mater of dimensions but the field of the quad in general?

Another question.. what are thous red boxes around furnitures, cars, etc..because in game there are not shown.. Some kind of collision box..or something else? If yes.. could you add something like that for your tress in china level to avoid failing under ground effect?

EDIT 2

Samer..

White apartments are not explorable - probably i will close them for god removing all existing walls and reduce the polygon usage, and leave only few for play as abandoned or waiting for new occupants. I will also add the garage..so you can be right that 14 floors is a big number.
But look at the buildings in the original levels.. there are huge(seen afar btw.).

Last edited by ltemplar (17/9/12 13:57)

Offline

#71 17/9/12 13:52

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Use developer mode .. Press f1 then x then f1 then enter twice then use the number pad to move camera around u can explore the whole thing this way and press end u'll teleport instantly into where the camera is showing .. If that's what u mean ..

Aren't u going to have the abandoned warehouse is same level ? U should account for how much that will take.

and about the apartments number will u consider lowering it a bit .. ? 84 yikes !! While only 8 are explorable is overkill in my opinion and if more than 8 are explorable it will take too long while i think this was meant for a quick stop, the real discovery will be in the abandoned warehouse and then the bgi building... Remove some floors, u'll be saving tris for the warehouse and not exceeding more than u need and not making it confusing .. Cz let's say a player wanted to go down to the lower levels .. How will he know that only 8 are explorable or which 8 to explore he might try all of them imagine how frustrating that will get for the player ..unless u completely block the stairs to the lower levels ..


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#72 17/9/12 14:08

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

Hmm.... Yes this could be somehow frustrating....But I also want players to think a lite bit.
I will then recreate some things(like stairways) then i will decide with floors should be explorable and with shouldn't- then close the unused and remove polygons from there. I will leave only few for exploration on upper floors...then i will create garage area...
The abandoned warehouse.. will be small (on the ground level) the underground will be bigger(some part s will be directly under apartment(but player will not be able to see this) .And if you think this will be annoying then yo will be relay piss of in the underground(nothing will be known )
And one note for passing apartment level you will have only 10 minutes(until BGI VTOL escape after fight witch Sarai. To this time you can explore as much as you want)).. for underground to escape only 5...

Last edited by ltemplar (18/9/12 10:27)

Offline

#73 17/9/12 14:55

EdT
Moderator

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

I wrote the tutorial based on my experience in making a level model with Sketchup.  For example the Old China mod, when tested on a PC, player will bounce up and down and characters will fall through the ground if the polygon is too large.  So in many locations I had to make the polygons smaller.  I suspect it may be related to the shape of the triangles, if they are long and narrow.  For some unknown reason, when I export from Sketchup as quads, I get problems importing into Oni.

Since you are able to export as quads, you probably won't have that issue.

So take my tutorials as a guideline, not absolute truth smile

Those are boxes with a collision texture that are invisible in the game.  Look at the file env_markers from an extracted level to see how they are used.

Offline

#74 17/9/12 15:10

Samer
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

ouh i so hate timed levels tongue ! there won't be time for sneaking and collecting stuff to use against sarai  and activating the robot and going thru balcony and pushing fridge and all that :\ sad maybe only activate timer once u make it out of konoko's apartment .. and reaching upper floors not before

Last edited by Samer (17/9/12 15:11)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#75 17/9/12 15:24

ltemplar
Member

Re: BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

No no no.. we don't understand itch other.I don't say that i can import quads, but that exported levels  doesn't have all things triangulated.
When exporting from XSI almost everything should be in Tris(not quads) or bad things hepen.. but this finding can be helpful in understand how this works.Another thing is the BNV itself. When i explore the bnv from original level i notice that furnitures or addition parts are also taken in consideration when BNV for the level is created. From your tutorial I understand that the BNV is a part of the environment only, and furnitures are not included in creating process. But theirs(original) levels have them.. So mz question is how i can mimic this effect?

"Those are boxes with a collision texture that are invisible in the game.  Look at the file env_markers from an extracted level to see how they are used."
So this is exactly what I suspect.Simple collision box..So my suggestion to create something like that for a trees in your china mod is not a bad idea after all..Probably this is the cause of that, when glass mode is active in game you can destroy the object, but still can't pass it.

BTW. EdT in your china beta mod on the corners of the map(when you fight witch tctf), character still have tendency to bounce up and down.I don't know if you are aware of this error.

"(until BGI VTOL escape after fight witch Sarai. To this time you can explore as much as you want))"
Samer.. please read cautiously what i wrote. The timer will be seated up after you fight Sarai not sooner.

Last edited by ltemplar (18/9/12 10:27)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB