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#1 18/11/09 5:34

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

I am part of the Myth community and tonight an old myther showed up, and we started talking about Take 2, and he told me a bunch of stuff I had never heard before. I thought I'd share it here.


Jon God: because (Myther, name withheld) knew someone from Take2.
Jon God: And was talking to them about buying the Myth rights, or at least getting it redistributed.
Jon God: But life is filling his time as of late.
-Unnamed-: the email is to a dead domain, but I do have a name
-Unnamed-: (Name withheld)
-Unnamed-: btw, this may be the 10000th time that has been suggested
-Unnamed-: I was actually in a 3 way chat with a t2 guy regarding that
-Unnamed-: it's nearly impossible for us to have a chance to develop another game, but even that is infinitely more likely than them selling the game
Jon God: This is, however, quite some time later.
-Unnamed-: don't wanna burst your bubble
Jon God: from what (Previous unnamed Myther) said, they didn't even know they owned the rights.
Jon God: It took them 2 weeks to dig up documents I think.
-Unnamed-: more like no one did anything for 2 weeks
-Unnamed-: lemme put it this way
-Unnamed-: when m3 was released
-Unnamed-: take2 was cooking the books
-Unnamed-: it got cut 3 months short, because mumbo jumbo was skimming, and t2 was cooking and if it didn't go out in the Q4, they might have been discovered
-Unnamed-: look up "ron dimant"
-Unnamed-: so the chance of the full myth series being sold *ever* is pretty much 0
-Unnamed-: the rights to make 1 game might be doable
-Unnamed-: *maybe*
-Unnamed-: and like I said, this is well covered ground
-Unnamed-: so take2 was counting shipped units as sales
-Unnamed-: so in order to give themselves their bonuses and make the shareholders happy
-Unnamed-: they released an unfinished game so it went on the books for that quarter
-Unnamed-: then counted every unit shipped as a sale, even if it came back as a return
-Unnamed-: they eventually got caught doing it
Jon God: What happened?
-Unnamed-: dunno, I know they got in trouble with the SEC, but I dunno how it turned out
-Unnamed-: but at this point giving away the books on myth would not be a smart move for t2 execs
-Unnamed-: not to mention, due to rockstar fucking up Oni, myth was the only thing they got out of loosing bungie's distro deal
Jon God: Poor Oni
Jon God: I wonder what the rights to that would cost.
-Unnamed-: well, it lives on now as GTA
Jon God: huh?
-Unnamed-: didn't know that, huh?
-Unnamed-:
Jon God: What exactly happened?
-Unnamed-: they spent 2 years porting oni to playstation
-Unnamed-: bungie just ran out of money in the interim
-Unnamed-: they totally failed to port the multiplayer
-Unnamed-: which is why it had no multi (bungie's version originally had 16 player multi and played like a fighting game)
Jon God: I know that much.
Jon God: But it was pulled because of the PS2 version?
-Unnamed-: yes
Jon God: I never knew that.
-Unnamed-: the deal was feature parity
-Unnamed-: what's funny
Jon God: I own both the mac and PS2 versions of the game.
-Unnamed-: is their inability to make that network code work is why GTA 3 had no multi
-Unnamed-: ironic, huh?
Jon God: Man
Jon God: How did you find all this stuff out?
-Unnamed-: I spent my time talking to mythers instead of playing the game
-Unnamed-: plus I talked with over 50% of the m3 team
Jon God: That is incredible
Jon God: Like.
Jon God: I am a total video game historian, and this is awesome.

Things shifted from there, but I thought you guys might be interested. If you want, I can ask him more later on. If he reshows up, that is.

I dunno if I should be surprised, or not, it's Take 2 after all...


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#2 18/11/09 6:39

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

Hmm, interesting.  I don't know how much of it I can buy into, because a reliable report about Oni's MP when it was being shown publicly said that the gameplay started falling apart when a few players got going.  And it was always thought that Oni's MP was cut due to (1) a lack of time, once Bungie signed the papers with MS and had to finish up Oni and move to Redmond, and (2) the lack of broadband penetration at the time.  If Oni couldn't get MP working over the Internet, then GTA probably wouldn't work at the time either, even if the games had nothing to do with each other.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#3 18/11/09 6:43

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

I'm going to have to verify a few things before I comment on this topic more. I would appreciate if you could PM me the withheld name of the T2 employee.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#4 18/11/09 8:58

Stevinlewis
Member
From: Singapore
Registered: 25/3/09

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

I dont understand. Can some1 explain to me? maybe a PM or tell every1 here to share to every1 who is as confused as me

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#5 20/11/09 16:49

Seventeen Seconds
Member
Registered: 30/9/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

Interesting post Jon God.  I've always been interested in Oni's twisted development saga.  I'm pretty sure most of the older community has their own opinions of Take 2, we know Oni was a labor of love and it shows through despite the flaws of the game's release.

There is a lot of fun points to note in that chat log:
1) Oni + origins of GTA 3(!)  If Oni was the core for GTA3, it's understandable why there was never any return from T2 regarding doing a NDA for the source.
2) A game with a dark future vision sabotaged in reality by corporate fraud.  Especially poignant given the recession in America ATM.
3) The story comes out from within the organization, by a dude interested in setting things straight.  Useless systems + good individuals.

Thanks to your inside man for the info.  If you get the chance to talk to him again Jon God, you should ask if it's a pipe dream that T2 will ever sell or set Oni free, or give it to the community to take the lead.  If not, maybe the coders and artists here would be better off trying to start some kind of independent online studio, so the spirit of the game lives on and we finally have the game Oni was meant to be.  Maybe even some of the old Bungie West crew would be interested in lending a hand or some guidance.

Much love to the Myth community from all the old school over here.

Last edited by Seventeen Seconds (20/11/09 16:50)

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#6 20/11/09 17:19

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

What corporate fraud?

---

Anyways, I have confirmed that Bungie was running low on money around the year 2000, waiting for the PS2 version to be ported. They really did need that MS deal.

On the networking issue: apparently the engine wasn't built around the game being multiplayer. The network code was added almost on top of everything else, so it was tough.

On GTA3: Hard to say. It is plausible, at the very least.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#7 20/11/09 18:33

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

17secs was referring to the allegations of cooked books, Gumby.  Personally, I'm thinking:

•Cooked books: No evidence for this; the SEC troubles were related to stock options being handed out under the table.
•Rushing MIII to make a fiscal quarter look good: Quite believable, but a common practice in the business world.

•Building GTA3 on Oni (plus a racing game, supposedly): Plausible, as Gumby says.
•Cooked books/re-used source being the reason T2 won't consider an NDA: It's more likely that T2 just doesn't see the profit in dealing with us....

•Rockstar failing to get MP working: Likely, but then again BW failed too, by some accounts.  A former BW staffer told us that they would have needed to lay a better foundation for MP from the start of the project, and probably hire another network programmer, to have had a better chance of pulling off MP.
•T2 killing MP because Rockstar couldn't get it working for the PS2: Possible, but according to some reports, BW's multiplayer wasn't exactly flawless on the PC.  Also, they probably ran out of time to produce any real MP content beyond those little arenas they were running around in and taking screenshots of.  Multiplayer requires a decent amount of work, and like the Iron Demon, it was a casualty of their deadline, which had more to do with joining MS than T2 being nefarious.

Just my two cents.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#8 20/11/09 21:01

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

Us ps2 owners got screwed over


Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!

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#9 20/11/09 22:22

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

The person I was talking to is not a part of Take 2, but seems to have known quite a few of bungie and MumboJumbo people at the very least, back in the day. I don't know what kind of connections he has now, but I can ask him later.

I asked more about about the GTAII link I got this:

Jon God: Hey, got a second?
Jon God: Well, let me know if you do, I got one question.
-Unnamed-: I don't have much time, but gimme the question and I'll get to it
Jon God: You mentioned Oni 'living on in GTA' I didn't quite get that, what exactly did you mean?
-Unnamed-: rockstar combined a racing game and parts of the oni engine to make gta3
Jon God: Any idea what parts?
-Unnamed-: nope, but I'm pretty sure it was the character view and projectile interactions
-Unnamed-: most everything but driving, basically
Jon God: Ah.
Jon God: I haven't played GTA in a while, but it didn't feel much like Oni, IIRC, so it's kinda surprising.
Jon God: At the same time though, Mirror's Edge doesn't feel like Gears of War, and they use the same engine.
-Unnamed-: feel?
Jon God: Well, seem.
-Unnamed-: it's not like they reused any art
-Unnamed-: look at gta2
-Unnamed-: then look at oni
-Unnamed-: then look how fast gta3 came out after rockstar finished Oni vs how long it took them to develop oni
-Unnamed-: err
-Unnamed-: port, not develop
Jon God: Yeah, that does make sense.

So yeah, I'm glad to have been any type of help, this was mostly posted because I thought it was interesting history.

I can ask other things if you want to leave me some questions.


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#10 20/11/09 22:28

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

oxe161 wrote:

Us ps2 owners got screwed over

How exactly? You got the same content as PC\Mac users, and on top of it all, Bungie wouldn't release any versions until the PS2 version was done.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#11 21/11/09 3:17

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

Gumby wrote:
oxe161 wrote:

Us ps2 owners got screwed over

How exactly? You got the same content as PC\Mac users, and on top of it all, Bungie wouldn't release any versions until the PS2 version was done.

Heh.

Perhaps not in the sense of content, but in quality, yes. The PS2 port of the game was quite awful, with slow down, long load times, load times between deaths, muddy washed out graphics, lower resolution, awkward controls, and strange aiming sensitivity.


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#12 22/11/09 21:07

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

Gumby wrote:
oxe161 wrote:

Us ps2 owners got screwed over

How exactly? You got the same content as PC\Mac users, and on top of it all, Bungie wouldn't release any versions until the PS2 version was done.

slow load times, bad lag, dark controls, sloppy camera, awful aiming, no Anniversary collection, dark at laces, sloppy dashing, and altered ending credits, whic used a horrible song


Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!

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#13 23/11/09 5:26

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

oxe161 wrote:
Gumby wrote:
oxe161 wrote:

Us ps2 owners got screwed over

How exactly? You got the same content as PC\Mac users, and on top of it all, Bungie wouldn't release any versions until the PS2 version was done.

slow load times, bad lag, dark controls, sloppy camera, awful aiming, no Anniversary collection, dark at laces, sloppy dashing, and altered ending credits, whic used a horrible song

I didn't even remember that it used a different ending song, now I am curious.


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#14 23/11/09 5:58

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

I might be able to rip the audio off of the PS2 disk and see.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#15 23/11/09 14:19

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

I am really angry if mac and pc don't have multiplayer just because the console port.  mad

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#16 23/11/09 15:05

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

No, there were other reasons, too. The engine just wasn't cut out for it, and there wasn't time enough to finish it.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#17 24/11/09 20:31

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

yea i have an oni music disc, and in the credits song, it has the techno theme followed by dialougue like "Oh please not in the face, good thinking. So how does this is end? U LOSE!"
It has some weird techno song, it has to be altered because of the additional rockstar people

Last edited by Lithium (24/11/09 20:31)


Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!

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#18 25/11/09 8:14

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

I'll have to replay it and see... Meh.


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#19 25/11/09 17:04

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

just put in the cheat to skip teh levels, then just use 1 hit kills to save time and see the credits


Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!

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#20 28/11/09 7:34

guido
Member
From: Milan, Italy
Registered: 25/4/07
Website

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

That reminds me of the old good talk Geyser and I had some two years and half ago. Back then I hinted him to get in touch with the guys at projectmagma.net, since they somehow had managed to get the myth2 sourcecode from T2.

@jon_god : I just love your sig (beyond dark castle and myth2 are the only games still running on my comp)


What if this is as good as it gets?

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#21 28/11/09 17:21

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

guido wrote:

That reminds me of the old good talk Geyser and I had some two years and half ago. Back then I hinted him to get in touch with the guys at projectmagma.net, since they somehow had managed to get the myth2 sourcecode from T2.

@jon_god : I just love your sig (beyond dark castle and myth2 are the only games still running on my comp)


I am in good contact with most of the Myth community, let me know if you want to talk to anyone. smile

Ah yes, Return to Dark Castle and Myth II, along with Oni two of my favorite games ever. smile

If you haven't tried Return to Dark Castle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az6ispvk_WM


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#22 9/4/10 11:59

edddeduck
Member
Registered: 4/2/09

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

Jon God wrote:

The person I was talking to is not a part of Take 2, but seems to have known quite a few of bungie and MumboJumbo people at the very least, back in the day. I don't know what kind of connections he has now, but I can ask him later.

I asked more about about the GTAII link I got this:

Jon God: Hey, got a second?
Jon God: Well, let me know if you do, I got one question.
-Unnamed-: I don't have much time, but gimme the question and I'll get to it
Jon God: You mentioned Oni 'living on in GTA' I didn't quite get that, what exactly did you mean?
-Unnamed-: rockstar combined a racing game and parts of the oni engine to make gta3
Jon God: Any idea what parts?
-Unnamed-: nope, but I'm pretty sure it was the character view and projectile interactions
-Unnamed-: most everything but driving, basically
Jon God: Ah.
Jon God: I haven't played GTA in a while, but it didn't feel much like Oni, IIRC, so it's kinda surprising.
Jon God: At the same time though, Mirror's Edge doesn't feel like Gears of War, and they use the same engine.
-Unnamed-: feel?
Jon God: Well, seem.
-Unnamed-: it's not like they reused any art
-Unnamed-: look at gta2
-Unnamed-: then look at oni
-Unnamed-: then look how fast gta3 came out after rockstar finished Oni vs how long it took them to develop oni
-Unnamed-: err
-Unnamed-: port, not develop
Jon God: Yeah, that does make sense.

So yeah, I'm glad to have been any type of help, this was mostly posted because I thought it was interesting history.

I can ask other things if you want to leave me some questions.

Having seen the Oni source and also being part of the GTA3 development I can hand on heart say I don't think they are related. The GTA3 engine is heavily based on a Render-ware engine (this is credited in the GTA3 manual so I am not breaking any secrets here).

The character/camera view code was written by one of the team at DMA (Now Rockstar North) don't know about the projectile code but I am pretty sure that was the Renderware engine (which used a basic version of Havok 1.0 physics at the time as I recall).

I am not saying that the GTA team could not have seen/use the Oni code but as I have have seen/worked on both projects I think the link between the projects is not much more than the Rockstar logo. Then again I was pretty junior at the time at Rockstar (so it could be a super secret) but when asking my friends who worked there they also don't know anything about Oni code in GTA3 so I think this is a chinese whisper with a small amount of truth.

Edwin

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#23 9/4/10 13:19

TOCS
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 4/4/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

It would be cool if we could somehow retrieve the Oni source, it would difinitely open new possibilities.

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#24 9/4/10 17:16

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

TOCS wrote:

It would be cool if we could somehow retrieve the Oni source, it would difinitely open new possibilities.

We are doing the best we can without it. ;_;


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#25 9/4/10 17:18

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: Wow.. I uncovered some behind the scenes Oni History.

Gumby wrote:
TOCS wrote:

It would be cool if we could somehow retrieve the Oni source, it would difinitely open new possibilities.

We are doing the best we can without it. ;_;

aw, poor Gumby.

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