IP Mothball Redux - If it Works

Skrylar · 07/22/08 13:07

As Gumby pointed out in the IP Mothball thread, there's a couple decisions that will have to be made regarding sequel development. This is assuming we have the license to the old stuff.

Sequel or Remake?
Developing an entirely new sequel would take money if we wanted to do a full dev job on it. It would theoretically be possible to take the old game and jazz it up bringing it a little closer to how it should've been. This does leave us with the same issue we have now in that we technically haven't made a sequel, just a newer version of what we had. The benefit of this is we'd have most of what we needed done, throw in an Oni 2 engine to run the old one and we basically have Half-Life: Source going. It'd likely just involve buffing up the levels (maybe integrating something like Bullet to give us physics) so the old levels would still be the old levels but would be a bit more lively (actually having boxes in the warehouse you could throw syndicate in to for instance). Voices are already done, and there's some un-used ones hacked out that might be usable (and maybe more, not sure if Take2 has the files for the unpublished audio that could be wired in). I don't know if they recorded the audio for the iron demon or not, since it was cut so early on (it has the texture and model, or at least there are screenshots of it) but it would be a bit off without the commentary.

Since most of the complaints regarding Oni were the sparse levels and a brick-wall shaped difficulty curve... Fixing these two could work out enough to make a Century Edition or somesuch. Valve convinced everyone to buy Counter-Strike all over again for nothing more than a graphics update, so who knows.

Another answer would be to use the Oni 2 engine to write a multiplayer game. We'd have to come up with some modes other than the normal DM, TDM, CTF modes but it'd also be the first game to actually handle both guns and melee properly in a multiplayer environment (The Specialists mod does not count, kung fu in that game is pathetic). This could be sold for maybe 10-15$ which would help get some seed money to make a proper sequel, and might help to bring some of the interest back.

Commercial as in wha?
Going for free is possible but then we'd have to put up a donation box if anybody wanted things like voice acting There's the donationware route, the stairstep, and episodic. There's been some dabbling in episode based games but I think it would fit fairly well for us. The bonus is that it doesn't lock up a professional team for 4 years (which is even longer for a group like us) and it gives you more feedback in development. If a part of the story is unclear or a level had to get cut due to bugs, you can put it in the next episode instead of just having to remove it completely.

Personally, I don't know. I've been trying to figure out how to handle it since I first contacted Take2. Seeding it with a remake of the original is.. eh. We'd only be able to add things Take2 still had lying around on the source discs and just sprucing up the levels. It's also a lot of work for planting us back in the same boat as we're already in. The multiplayer idea may work if we can pull it off (connections are faster than they were in 2001, compression is better, if an MMO can make giant dungeons work we can make groups of ~24 players work). It also gives everyone something to play (and helps tweak out new melee moves and the like) during development, which means people would be looking at us the whole time instead of throwing it in the void of a bookmarks menu never to return

The net code could also be recycled in to co-op when the story starts getting worked on, which would make buying episodes even more appealing (new stuff to play with friends).

Loser · 07/22/08 13:07

Hi,
Since I am just modder, not lawyer, I will react on your gameplay questions.
Multiplayer modes:
1) Siege. Two teams where one team finishies various objectives to finish to round, other team defenses for set time limit, then roles switch. You can join as one of a few classes and "buy" some equipment for it (faster reinforcement, guns, powerups), either based on your personal success in previous game or on some pre-defined amount of points. Each side has "hero", powerful class (Mukade, Muro, Barabus, Konoko) which can be only one in one game (other classes can be more times). Hero is controlled by each player one-after-one. When one player dies with hero, another one (acoording to some fix order) plays with it. After this player dies as well, he returns back to his previous class. Etc etc..., details can be changed, no problems.
Possible missions:

Syndicate raid in TCTF HQ - Syndicate attack, TCTF defense

1) Get access into TCTF building
possibilities: hack entry terminal in parking lot entry (must be Comguy to have ability to hack) || blast off front cover of main door by van (yeah, I assume driveable vehicles), any class || sneak into building (usage of cloak) and open it from inside (any class)
Spawn area: Syndicate on street, roughly where Konoko stops with motorcycle in first level 8 cutscene || TCTF inside building near main gate
Special quest items: one van on Syndicate side, lots of cars from parking lot on TCTF side

2) Get access to higher floors
- simply activate three consoles on three stories. Kinda like in the regular mission
possibilities: TCTF engineer (some civillian class) can encrypt consoles (15-30 secs activity) so it takes longer for Syndicate to activate them (2x longer for regular classes, "normal" speed for comguys). Syndicate comguys can use unencrypted consoles 2x faster than other classes. Once used, console is decrypted (if it was crypted) and can be used in normal speed. Both teams (any class) can turn console on and off (more challenge). In case of less than 3 players on attack side, consoles cannot be turned off by TCTF. To finish objective all three consoles must be on + someone from Syndicate must enter upper floors ( last door before 2nd savepoint).
Spawn area: Syndicate near the end of the garage (where two strikers come out if you run directly at the beginning of the mission) || TCTF on the 2nd floor in main hall.

3) Get elevator access
possibilities: steal keycard from TCTF - 1/2 of TCTFs are given LSI keycard at spawn. Odd number of players=less are given keycard. When TCTF with this item is killed, he/she drops it. It can be picked up by Syndicate or (in order to save it) by other TCTF which DOES NOT have LSI yet. With keycard, this Syndicate must travel to where elevator entrance is (needs to remodel level structure a bit, if you noticed, there is no elevator entrance in 2nd savepoint ^_^, only broken glass for Konoko to use laser torch) and use elevator to get up.
Spawn area: Syndicate where 2nd savepoint is || TCTF on middle level of the area, where strikers are in normal game, shooting down at TCTFs

4) Capture Shinatama and move to the roof
possibilities: Shinatama is sitting in her chair. Syndicate must come close to the chair and hold "pickup" for some short time (4-5 secs). Elites and Barabus can hold pickup for 1/2 time of other classes's time. Once "picked", Shinatama is carried by the one who picked her up. This Syndicate cannot melee, he/she can only shoot. There is no damage to Shinatama, she is taken as object, not as char. If the one who carries her dies, TCTF can pick her up (same combat restrictions as for Syndicate) and carry her back. From the ground, picking up Shinatama is very quick (just press pickup, can be done from slide, simply as powerup), so it is good idea to carry her back to the chair (where it takes time to unplug her). Plugging back is instanteous, no waiting time. Sprinting is disabled as well with Shinatama over your shoulder. Goal is to carry Shinnie to the roof, where helicopter is.
Spawn area: Syndicate where 3rd savepoint is || TCTF on the highest floor of the area

5) Defend helicopter as it takes off
possibilities: Now Syndicates must defend helicopter. It will be landed on roof so it needs pilot (some player from Syndicate) and a few time to take off. Shinatama is locked niside and CANNOT be rescued, but pilots can be killed so helicopter cannot fly away. If player gets inside, he cannot fight or shoot, he can only hold use key and hope for his teammates. Or get out, if things are becaming too dangerous. From outside, piloting char can be dragged out from cockpit by TCTF char ( simply press use ) or he/she can be killed by weapons. If player inside manages to hold use for 10-15 seconds, helicopter will turn in air (so he cannot be harmed) and fly away and Syndicate wins. If he dies/gets out/is dragged, helicopter keeps rotating blades, only it will descend back to the ground. TCTF CANNOT get into helicopter.
Spawn area: Syndicate on roof around helicopter || TCTF inside building near glass panels (where elite TCTFs are when you are playing TCTF redux)

This is example of specific multiplayer game. There can be more of this ( Syndicate attack on atmospheric converters, TCTF raid in manplant/warehouse/compound etc.) This is what I have always wanted to be in this game.
Loser

Last edited by Loser (07/22/08 14:07)

Iritscen · 07/22/08 13:07

Well, assuming that we get the rights (and that's a big assume), I am not saying we should give it away. Although figuring out profit sharing would be tricky, it could be done by signing agreements beforehand.

But I am not sure I agree with the basic notion that development requires money. What it requires is time. The question is whether the community will find the time, without the incentive of money. I think it would find the time, although getting paid for the work would likely make it go somewhat faster. But most of us are working adults anyway, and don't have the time for a full-on second job even if it does pay. So I think that, just as modding up till now has proceeded in dribs and drabs based on what free time we can spare, so would go the work on Oni 2. So why involve money? We already have coders, binary modders and artists who have done work for free. An Oni 2 project would just be a matter of directing their efforts towards a common goal, which should motivate them more than before.

It's true that we have not attempted to do any voice acting, but I think we could scrounge up the talent for that too from the existing community. I don't have any training in acting, but I have informally studied voice acting for years, and could easily handle the role of voice director. With a director who knows what he's looking for, a decent performance can be coaxed out of anyone. And the actual tools we would need for development are either (a) already developed by the community, (b) cheap (such as microphones and entry-level software) and within a price range we would be willing to spend to further the work, or (c) expensive (such as 3dmax) but already possessed by some members of the community. So who needs money? :-)

Iritscen · 07/22/08 13:07

Also, if we don't go the route of trying to sell anything, there is a lot less of a burden on the community. Some of us have stressful jobs, at least at times, and don't need a commercial project hanging over us all the while. Making a less official, free sequel (hopefully while holding the rights, but even if not) would allow us to submit what we have when we have it. Any of us could come up with a laundry list of ideas to put into Oni 2, but when a commercial project is started it's really supposed to have a deadline (not that it has to be set in stone, but eventually, if money is involved, and especially a publisher, they are going to want to see something for their investment). How many features could be implemented before that deadline? Whereas, producing iterative releases ("This one has multiplayer", "Now it has driveable vehicles", etc.) allows us to continue to view this as a fun, casual use of free time.

Skrylar · 07/22/08 14:07

The only reason we would even have a deadline is if we had outside investment. Self-published (buy & download, or ship burned CDs at first like Introversion) coupled with something like Stardock Impulse would pretty much mean our publisher wouldn't ask anything of us. So if we built a seed project like the multiplayer game, we would essentially be setting our own timeframes. Episode releases are pretty much the same as iterative releases (that's what they are, in a sense).

Such is the great thing of independence, you get to choose the path you take. Just remember to bring enough cheetos

EdT · 07/22/08 15:07

If Oni was to go open source or got permission to actively develop the game, I wouldn't be surprised if the former programmers of Oni would release artwork, code, animations that did not get into the original game. So we would have enough data to add and improve the current game.

Also, we have some very smart and devoted programmers working in the background that understand the Oni application, they could release an improved Oni engine if we had the legal rights to do so.

I think that as a community there is great potential for the future Oni, but only if...

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IP Mothball Redux - If it Works

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