meele ai

Melodyman · 03/06/08 08:03

How this coud be that TCTF_swat_blackops don't have kick_fw or punch_fw attack move in meele profile, but he uses it wery seldomly? Can somebody explain that? and when he uses super attacks it traks th enemy down with it. why other attaks don't track enemy?

geyser · 03/06/08 12:03

What do you mean by "tracking the enemy down"? Also, I wouldn't really call Lion Axe and Lion Fist "super" attacks - they're just a forward kick and a forward punch after all, not the equivalents of the Devil Spin Kick and Rising Fury or whatever.

One reason for your observation (Lion Axe and Lion Fist used by Black Ops SWAT) can be that not all Black Ops SWAT use the MELE profile intended for Black Ops SWAT. There's always a chance for a lookup glitch, but it's impossible (not very likely).

Melodyman · 03/06/08 16:03

There is 2 profiles for swat troopers. 0c is for swat_blackops and 0d is for swat. It's in character file. some blackops use swat profile i know. but 0c profile uses these moves punch_fw and kick_fw but don't have them in meele profile...
trak down i mean that when it uses move it follows the enemy. for example if you give barabas other character it will track down enemy with it's super kick(earthquaker)

geyser · 03/06/08 19:03

"trak down i mean that when it uses move it follows the enemy." And what does that mean? I don't understand it either way.

Melodyman · 03/07/08 09:03

argh! try to do it yourself! give barabas other class for ecapmple TCTF_swat_1 and fight him! you vill see that he traks down you with super kick!
still can't explain why swat_blackops do moves wich is not in meele list? i think it is AI bug.

Melodyman · 03/10/08 08:03

So did you do that?

geyser · 03/10/08 09:03

"I don't have time for this." And, frankly, I am not the best person to ask.
Please cope with me if I ask you to explain when I could "go hack myself"
I just don't feel like I'm helping you if the whole investigation is mine...
Accurately describing what you see may guide you to find the answers.
You have the capacity of understanding the melee engine by yourself.

So, no, I haven't tried to "give barabas other class for ecapmple TCTF_swat_1 and fight him!"
However, it is clear that Barabas (and Ninjas and Mutant Muro) use the super kick differently.
They all use "Maneuver::Barabbas Wave", whereas all the others use "Attack::CS-K" instead.
Probably the "Maneuver::Barabbas Wave" thing adds a continuous realignment on the enemy.

As for the Black Ops SWAT, yes, it could be a "bug", but we can't know for sure.
We could know better if you pointed out a single Black Ops SWAT as an example.
Again, I'm sorry, but I don't feel like investigating if you're not systematic as well.

Last edited by geyser (03/10/08 09:03)

Iritscen · 03/10/08 11:03

Short answer: Post a vid, Melodyman. Loser makes videos all the time to demonstrate something he wants to show us, like the projectile dodging issue.

Edit: Like this: http://loser.oni2.net/Videos/Projectile_dodge_issue.wmv

Last edited by Iritscen (03/10/08 11:03)

geyser · 03/10/08 16:03

Heh, videos help to concentrate on the facts, but they are not equivalent to an investigation.
Sigh... The "tracking" thing I already detailed above. It has to do with the "Barabbas Wave".
Barabas, Mutant Muro and the Ninja use a special Maneuver as part of their Super Kick move.
The other characters use a regular move, namely Attack::CS-K, for which aiming is disabled.

As for the SWAT (sigh), I went and played through all the levels where they appear...
None of the Black Ops SWAT I saw use the Lion Axe or Lion Fist, except for these few:
L14: CS_ScanOps01; L18: C_Sbo{44|52|56|61|63|64} and D_Sbo{71|72|75|86|93}.
And these 12 "renegades" all use the MELE with ID 13 (TCTF_Swat), not surprisingly.

So, Melodyman, no offense meant, but please get your story straight next time...

Last edited by geyser (03/10/08 16:03)

Melodyman · 03/11/08 21:03

Pitty you did't saw swat_blackops doin lion_axe becouse they do! ofcourse you must see him in action for some time! 5 min for example. make a duel:
spawn some swat_blackops mayby in final level GrifOps01 and some other guy(striker, elite whatever) and give both lot of health! Be patent he will use lion_axe(not lion_fist)! So how i can give this Barabbas Wave to other moves so they can direct thay attacks! I am tired to see opponents attacking air when i already doddged and standing bihind him...

geyser · 03/11/08 23:03

Pitty you did't saw swat_blackops doin lion_axe becouse they do! ofcourse you must see him in action for some time! 5 min for example. make a duel:
spawn some swat_blackops mayby in final level GrifOps01 and some other guy(striker, elite whatever) and give both lot of health! Be patent he will use lion_axe(not lion_fist)!

I'm at the limits of my patience, but I did set up a duel as you suggested.
Indeed I witnessed rare Lion Axe kicks (had to wait for about 3 minutes).

First, as far as I'm concerned, "once in 3 minutes" is the same as "never".
Second, this is probably due to a conflict with indirect animation lookups.
The Lion Axe is probably either a kick or a Running Knee "gone wrong"...
I've seen MELE techniques override each other before (not like I care why).
The Lion Axe thing seems a bit more exotic, and you're the first to report it.
But because of your aggressive tone I don't even feel like thanking you
Anyway, don't expect me to investigate that bug and make it into a feature.

So how i can give this Barabbas Wave to other moves so they can direct thay attacks! I am tired to see opponents attacking air when i already doddged and standing bihind him...

Opponents who never expose their backs are not necessarily a good idea.
You don't want the game to become unplayable with a few extra enemies.

Barabbas Wave will only work for "super kicks" unless we hack the engine.
There is little chance that we'll hack this part of the engine any time soon.

General rant:
You should really consider carrying out a private investigation at this point.
You have good observation skills, and you have mastered the basics of hex.
So there's no reason why you shouldn't develop solutions on your own now.
Kinda like Loser. You're very much like Loser except you bug me a lot more.

Melodyman · 03/12/08 13:03

Ok i am pleased you saw this ai bug too. i was thinkong the same about runing knee move but in this case swat is not runing but walking to there comes lion_axe! Thanks about my skills! you gues had tought me a lot so i can continue what yous started! at first it was annoing but now start to get interesting! pitty about that tracking super_kick. maybe some day it will be me who will hack it! I just don't know with what program the engine can be hacked...
Jea Loser maybe we can manage that hack together?!

Melodyman · 03/12/08 13:03

And sorry about the tone it was not ment like aggresive!

geyser · 03/12/08 13:03

Oh, Melodyman, if you're so good that you're bored by enemies charging straight ahead, maybe you can post some kick-ass gameplay videos?

Melodyman · 03/13/08 20:03

Well maybe! but i have a problem with dev mode so i can 't record my gameplay. may will give a hand? i modifided the persist but when i tipe thedayismine nothing happens... ofcourse i can use other program to record...

geyser · 03/13/08 21:03

You can't record actual footage from within Oni, so you have to use other apps like Fraps, Taksi, CamStudio...

Loser · 03/17/08 07:03

Melodyman,
Really nice observation, respect.
For your information, there are more bugs similar to "yours", such as 02 (brown striker)MELE character doing super kick move (headbutt dash for strikers), Ninja MELE powered characters spamming P_P_K_K_K_K_K combo (they either interrupt the combo and do other attacks or interrupt the combo and start it again) or Elites ocasionally performing a roll forward instead of their slide attack.

All of this is linked with the system which is used to make AIs do the moves. It is only my theory, but I think that it works this style:
MELE has crouch_forward_kick, which is listed as attack-type TECHNIQUE. Engine checks probability of usage of this technique according to:
-specifications declared in the MELE header (chance of changing the stance(crouch/stand), chance of using some technique even tough enemy is now in state that he/she will block this one etc.)
-technique's WEIGHT, REPEAT DELAY (and maybe its options)
-AI's ANIMATION STATE
-AI's position to enemy it is focused on (declared in the MOVES part of the technique), MOVEs position part (usually the first block of the MOVEs) is not required; if it is missing or corrupted, AI will use first move's danger ranges for positioning

So back to the crouch_forward_kick example:
AI is near its enemy, within the range specified in position part of the MOVEs part. Enemy is standing, thus his lower body is unblocked. Crouch_forward_kick isn't now in repeat delay pause. Animation state of the AI is either standing or crouching.
Now engine randomly picks from all suitable attacks. It chooses our crouch_forward_kick move. AI makes final position adjustment (makes character crouch) and then crouch_forward_kick command is sent to character to do that animation, as if player pressed a button (AI command is directly ANIMATION TYPE number of the required animation, but executing engine interprets it as virtual button presses).
After moves from MOVE part are finished, technique ends(it can be terminated in the middle, but that is another story). Repeat delay is applied on this technique, so random selector ignores it for specified amount of time.

That is just my opinion on how it works. Using this theory, I explain bugs in moves as sudden mess in conditions for the technique, so moves are executed, but in different conditions. For example Elite's slide attack bug is in fact slide that is executed (chosen to do) too close to the enemy, so character can't run, can't be in running ANIMATION STATE. So virtual button presses are applied onto character, and because slide command is similar to forward roll (press crouch) and AI "holds forward key" almost all the time in MELE, it performs standing animation state crouch+forward move. Which is roll forward ^_^.
With big thanks for your attitude,

Loser

Last edited by Loser (03/17/08 07:03)

Melodyman · 03/17/08 12:03

Wau! That was realy good explanation! Thanks Loser! but why ninjas interrupt the P_P_K_K_K_K_K combo but super_ninja doesn't?

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