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#26 8/4/19 9:49

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:
RazdByBearz wrote:

Yes - the pulse was fatal. The surge solved a number of problems for us. It made the fight harder by removing the extra help in the stage, as well as wrapping up the branching storyline in which Griffin was left alive.

Aw well smile  You win some, you lose some.  I didn't really see a need to have Griffin in an Oni 2 anyway — it feels like his story is complete enough by the time Oni ends.

Technically you didn't lose. The fact is that the pulse sometimes didn't do enough damage to kill off all the helpers in the battle, so they could occasionally be seen still running around on screen! I'm just trying to speak to the intentions.

I'm surprised to hear that the BWest team stuck together at all post-Oni.  My impression of the timeline was that BWest members were finishing their work on Oni and then either moving to Redmond or leaving the company, until there was just one guy left working on Oni (the contractor, Stefan Sinclair), and that anyone who had moved to Bungie's new office was immediately caught up in the work on Halo.

Interesting to hear your ideas for the next project — that wasn't the cancelled "Phoenix", right?  I think that was Bungie HQ's next project, not BWest's.  It sounds like you had an idea that was similar to, but predated, Shadow of the Colossus.  I never got to play that one, but I did really enjoy being big in the Ratchet & Clank games, whenever Clank would become super-sized for short gameplay segments.

And yes, it would have been great to see Konoko battling mutant/Daodan-powered enemies with crazy abilities.  I have a lot of ideas on paper about that myself.  You mentioned on our old forum that you also wanted to develop on the notion of the Screaming Cells which come from 'beyond the phase veil'.

Our time together as the Bungie West team didn't last very long. As I recall, it was only a month or two before we all got sucked into HALO. Interestingly, many of the team members from Bungie West became leads on HALO. I was always very proud of that fact - our time together on ONI taught us a lot of important lessons in development.

One funny tidbit about that time - as we were discussing what our next project should be, Chris Butcher suggested we could make a game called Boy Band. While he was initially shouted down by everybody, the concept kept coming up in conversation. To this day, I try to imagine what might have happened if we had created Boy Band and been the first team to come up with one of those music tapping games.


Thanks so much for stopping by and providing so much information!  I've already edited parts of our wiki to take this thread into account smile
I have a few more questions, if you don't mind:

I'm flattered that you all are still enjoying our work. I'm happy to answer questions, but I kind of feel bad because it sounds a bit like debating and discussing this stuff is part of the fun for you guys. I hate to crush discussion by adding my own opinions! I hope you will all remember that at this point, that's all I'm doing  - sharing my own opinions on the game and the story. Oni belongs to all of us, and your perceptions are just as valid as mine.

- If Griffin is not spared by Konoko and doesn't come to your aid in the final fight, Muro undergoes a monstrous transformation.  Was there a reason why Muro only transforms in the Griffin-less scenario, and not in a fight where he also has to deal with Griffin and his Black Ops backup?

We wanted there to be a tangible difference for the player, depending on the moral choice that you made earlier in the story. Given limited time and resources, changing the complexion of the boss battle at the end seemed like a good way to create that difference.

- Is Mukade definitely intended to be dead after his fight with Konoko, or could he have survived thanks to his Daodan powers?  Lots of fans have imagined him playing a role in an Oni 2.

Oh hell no! I love that he's become such a fan favorite, so I defeinitely would have found a way to bring him back - more dangerous than ever! That's part of the danger of Daodan mutates after all...

- Did you have any specific ideas for Oni multiplayer before it had to be cut, in terms of gameplay modes, etc.?  After all, you were the MP designer for Halo.  I just don't know if you had time to think much about MP in Oni with everything else that was going on.

Honestly, no - I didn't. Multiplayer was really only in the proof of technology stages of development when I joined the team, and by the time I'd finished the single-player design we had so much work ahead of us that the only sensible decision was to cut it entirely. Fun fact - for years afterwards, I developed a kind of a mental design for the multiplayer-only spiritual sequel to Oni that I called KFN. I used to spend hours talking to Chris Butcher about it. it would have been really fun to make!

Last edited by RazdByBearz (8/4/19 10:09)

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#27 8/4/19 17:57

TOCS
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 4/4/07

Re: I'm new here!

Speaking of Oni-style multiplayer games, I find it peculiar that nothing sensible has been developed in the direction of Oni's style. I mean, in this golden age of online gaming, it would seem obvious to make a Kung Fu simulator with interesting and varied gunplay?

Even if Oni as a brand is fairly unknown today, the core of its game design; the HTH combat and gunplay mixed together is extremely unique. The way the game controls and feels mechanically is not something I've seen before. The original Fighting Force game has a similar style with a much more arcady design and feel. That style of action game is all I can think about when looking at Oni.

I'm convinced an online multiplayer game in the style of Oni could succeed and perhaps get a fair chance on funding platforms. Maybe developing a tech demo with all gameplay related mechanics and systems refined to the core. Almost like a proof of concept. No need for lots of content showcasing. It could probably hit big. Through streaming it would sky rocket. The actual design if developed and balanced well could have a very interesting learning curve for competitive players.

Should the game get released, be a piece of crap, but with great design and mechanics, it will at least have sparked some new interest in this crazily overlooked game design for the future.

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#28 9/4/19 13:13

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

RazdByBearz wrote:

I'm flattered that you all are still enjoying our work. I'm happy to answer questions, but I kind of feel bad because it sounds a bit like debating and discussing this stuff is part of the fun for you guys. I hate to crush discussion by adding my own opinions! I hope you will all remember that at this point, that's all I'm doing  - sharing my own opinions on the game and the story. Oni belongs to all of us, and your perceptions are just as valid as mine.

I think that probably fans will continue letting their imaginations run wild no matter what, so I wouldn't worry about discouraging them too much smile  Personally I am always super-interested to know what the original creator of a story had in mind.  Even despite that, I probably wouldn't let that stop me from coming up with different explanations for some things if I was writing fan fiction.*  It's just that I've also taken it upon myself to be a sort of historian for the game, documenting my findings on the wiki, which is why the intent of the creators matters so much to me.

*For instance, in my fan writing, the Daodan organism isn't Hasegawa's invention (only the Chrysalis is), and comes from "beyond the phase veil", among other twists to the normal interpretations that a player might have of certain plot elements.

Is Mukade definitely intended to be dead after his fight with Konoko, or could he have survived thanks to his Daodan powers?  Lots of fans have imagined him playing a role in an Oni 2.

Oh hell no! I love that he's become such a fan favorite, so I defeinitely would have found a way to bring him back - more dangerous than ever! That's part of the danger of Daodan mutates after all...

Glad to hear it smile

Fun fact - for years afterwards, I developed a kind of a mental design for the multiplayer-only spiritual sequel to Oni that I called KFN. I used to spend hours talking to Chris Butcher about it. it would have been really fun to make!

Sounds interesting!  Feel free to expand on this if want.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#29 10/4/19 15:42

guido
Member
From: Milan, Italy
Registered: 25/4/07
Website

Re: I'm new here!

RazdByBearz wrote:

- Is Mukade definitely intended to be dead after his fight with Konoko, or could he have survived thanks to his Daodan powers?  Lots of fans have imagined him playing a role in an Oni 2.

Oh hell no! I love that he's become such a fan favorite, so I defeinitely would have found a way to bring him back - more dangerous than ever! That's part of the danger of Daodan mutates after all...

YES! That's exactly the kind of stuff that fires up my imagination (and motivation)!


What if this is as good as it gets?

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#30 10/4/19 15:56

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

Hey there guido, long time no see!  Feeling fired up?  Me too :-)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#31 27/7/19 15:42

Delano762
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 29/12/10
Website

Re: I'm new here!

Hey Hardy,
First of all, thank you for taking part in making my favorite game of all time big_smile

Second, if you're still there, I've got questions too - I've been making some new animations for Oni recently, and the more I did that, the more I realised that both Konoko and Muro seem to have a knack for breaking people's necks, legs, arms etc. Konoko has the Running Lariat, Backbreaker, and she also finished Mukade off in a very memorable way. Muro on the other hand, has his Leg Breaker, Running Neck/Arm Breaker, and his back Neck Snap.
Is this tendency to break bones a coincidence, or is this intended? Some sort of Hasegawa family thing, like Tekken's Mishimas have a thing for throwing each other off cliffs? Or maybe it's a hint, that Konoko and Muro have more in common than they'd like or think?

And thirdly, going along this line of thought and on the account that you'd bring Mukade back if that was possible:

RazdByBears wrote:

Oh hell no! I love that he's become such a fan favorite, so I defeinitely would have found a way to bring him back - more dangerous than ever! That's part of the danger of Daodan mutates after all...

Is Muro definitely dead after his fight with Konoko?
He's quite the villain and a character - Poisoning the entire planet to enslave those who could afford the means to survive was beyond evil and cunning.
Plus, Muro and Konoko would be quite a duo when working together, as not only they would be completely unstoppable, but also they seem to shine the most when doing outrageous and insane things (poisoning the planet in Muro's case, in case of Konoko - cutting elevator cables to ride on them upstairs or jumping off a plane with no parachute while on a Daodan overcharge).

Last edited by Delano762 (27/7/19 15:42)


Circus Afro, Circus Afro, Polka Dot, Polka Dot!

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#32 3/8/19 12:12

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Delano762 wrote:

Hey Hardy,
First of all, thank you for taking part in making my favorite game of all time big_smile

Thank you - I'm deeply honored and gratified that so many people love Oni.

Delano762 wrote:

Second, if you're still there, I've got questions too - I've been making some new animations for Oni recently, and the more I did that, the more I realised that both Konoko and Muro seem to have a knack for breaking people's necks, legs, arms etc. Konoko has the Running Lariat, Backbreaker, and she also finished Mukade off in a very memorable way. Muro on the other hand, has his Leg Breaker, Running Neck/Arm Breaker, and his back Neck Snap.
Is this tendency to break bones a coincidence, or is this intended? Some sort of Hasegawa family thing, like Tekken's Mishimas have a thing for throwing each other off cliffs? Or maybe it's a hint, that Konoko and Muro have more in common than they'd like or think?

I'm still here ;-)

Yes - Kononko and Muro have similar styles - they are brother and sister after all! The similarities are due to the fact that they both practice their family's unique style of martial arts. Both were (virtually) trained by their father from a very young age - almost since 'birth' (see below).

Delano762 wrote:

Is Muro definitely dead after his fight with Konoko?
He's quite the villain and a character - Poisoning the entire planet to enslave those who could afford the means to survive was beyond evil and cunning.
Plus, Muro and Konoko would be quite a duo when working together, as not only they would be completely unstoppable, but also they seem to shine the most when doing outrageous and insane things (poisoning the planet in Muro's case, in case of Konoko - cutting elevator cables to ride on them upstairs or jumping off a plane with no parachute while on a Daodan overcharge).

Well, in my version of the story in the second game of the trilogy, we discover that Konoko and Muro were both cloned - repeatedly - while Hasegawa adjusted their biology to make them perfect hosts for the Daodan Chrysalis. So really, there could theoretically be a bunch of "less perfect" Muros stored in stasis chambers somewhere (hint hint). And of course, there could be less perfect (read: monstrous) versions of Konoko herself!

But if Konoko and Muro are both clones... are the actual human children alive somewhere!?

I guess we'll never know!

Last edited by RazdByBearz (3/8/19 12:13)

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#33 4/8/19 15:20

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

Intriguing stuff!  I guess Kerr wasn't aware of what Hasegawa was really up to, since he tells Mai that the Chrysalis prototypes were not intended to be implanted in humans.  Or else he was hiding the unpleasant truth from her?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#34 6/8/19 0:49

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

He was hiding the unpleasant truth from her. That is also why Shinatama tells Konoko in the very first act that heath-ups will react differently to her than to "other people."

Somewhere down the road, I imagine there might have been an interesting scene where mutate/clone Konoko meets human Mai  - the Demon meeting the Girl.

What might happen at that point - I don't know. But I suspect that once the full truth was out in the open, only one of them could survive.

Last edited by RazdByBearz (6/8/19 0:51)

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#35 6/8/19 6:46

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: I'm new here!

Thinking about it this clone stuff actually kinda makes some sense. I guess this would also be a reason why Konoko has no memories of her past (parents etc).

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#36 6/8/19 10:51

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

It also gives new meaning to Konoko's code name meaning "this girl"!  I think geyser would like this concept, or find it intriguing at least.  He had a lot of "Oni 2"-related ideas about Mai's alienation from others and from herself due to the Chrysalis developing inside of her.  It would be interesting to externalize that conflict into a literal Mai vs. Konoko scenario (like Dream Lab, except real, and an ongoing storyline instead of a short fight).

Hardy, maybe you can settle another debate for us.  It's not about explaining a mysterious story element, but rather what seems to be a conflict in the story material.  The manual opens by clearly stating that the year is 2032, but then it says this about the WCG: "On January 12th, 2032 the newborn World Coalition Government annexed 80% of the countries of the world. The holdouts either reconsidered and signed treaties or were 'dissolved' in a matter of months."  Is that date really supposed to be in the same year that Oni takes place?  That would mean that this big authoritarian gov't literally just came into existence, whereas Konoko has been training at (and growing up in) the TCTF since childhood.

I have a pet theory, which is that it's a typo for "2012", because the description for the PSP says "This device is a miniaturized version of the vehicle-mounted phase projectors deployed during the Freedom Riots of 2012."  Why were there Freedom Riots 20 years before the WCG took over, unless they really started annexing countries in 2012, not 2032?  This would also give the WCG plenty of time to establish itself as Big Brother by the time Konoko starts working for the TCTF as an agent.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#37 10/8/19 15:24

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:

It also gives new meaning to Konoko's code name meaning "this girl"!  I think geyser would like this concept, or find it intriguing at least.  He had a lot of "Oni 2"-related ideas about Mai's alienation from others and from herself due to the Chrysalis developing inside of her.  It would be interesting to externalize that conflict into a literal Mai vs. Konoko scenario (like Dream Lab, except real, and an ongoing storyline instead of a short fight).

Hardy, maybe you can settle another debate for us.  It's not about explaining a mysterious story element, but rather what seems to be a conflict in the story material.  The manual opens by clearly stating that the year is 2032, but then it says this about the WCG: "On January 12th, 2032 the newborn World Coalition Government annexed 80% of the countries of the world. The holdouts either reconsidered and signed treaties or were 'dissolved' in a matter of months."  Is that date really supposed to be in the same year that Oni takes place?  That would mean that this big authoritarian gov't literally just came into existence, whereas Konoko has been training at (and growing up in) the TCTF since childhood.

I have a pet theory, which is that it's a typo for "2012", because the description for the PSP says "This device is a miniaturized version of the vehicle-mounted phase projectors deployed during the Freedom Riots of 2012."  Why were there Freedom Riots 20 years before the WCG took over, unless they really started annexing countries in 2012, not 2032?  This would also give the WCG plenty of time to establish itself as Big Brother by the time Konoko starts working for the TCTF as an agent.

Yes - you are correct - it's a typo. The error was, unfortunately, all mine. I was responsible for typing all that stuff up, and I probably fat-fingered the keys while typing it up. The manual should have listed the formation of the WCG around or in the year 2012-2015. Heck, it could even be 2019, just to make it current!

Yeah - the Freedom Riots were the uprisings against the formation of the WCG, and the last gasp of ordinary citizens trying to publicize the extent of ecological damage being done to the environment.

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#38 10/8/19 15:30

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

When I say "only one of them could survive" I mean from a thematic standpoint. I don't think that they would have to be enemies - I just think the story is better, and more interesting if one or the other of them dies.

Imagine a scenario where Konoko meets Mai, and they are faced with an overwhelming threat - a danger that could destroy what little hope the world has left, and Konoko volunteers to sacrifice herself to thwart it... but before she heads out to her death, she kisses Mai and implants her with a tiny fragment of her chrysalis...

Then Mai begins the process of adaptation herself. Only she can survive it (as a human) because of all that Konoko endured as a mutate, becoming the new alpha-predator.

Hell yes - that's what I'd want to see/play.

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#39 10/8/19 15:31

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

s10k wrote:

Thinking about it this clone stuff actually kinda makes some sense. I guess this would also be a reason why Konoko has no memories of her past (parents etc).

Exactly correct! ;-)

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#40 10/8/19 15:42

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

RazdByBearz wrote:

Yes - you are correct - it's a typo. The error was, unfortunately, all mine. I was responsible for typing all that stuff up, and I probably fat-fingered the keys while typing it up. The manual should have listed the formation of the WCG around or in the year 2012-2015. Heck, it could even be 2019, just to make it current!

Yeah - the Freedom Riots were the uprisings against the formation of the WCG, and the last gasp of ordinary citizens trying to publicize the extent of ecological damage being done to the environment.

Interesting, thanks for confirming.  I have to say, Oni's textual elements are practically flawless.  I usually see more typos in games, but it's hard to think of any other mistakes in Oni.  I can tell that you put a lot of care into the game's writing.

Re: Oni's timeline meshing with ours, I prefer to think that Oni takes place in an alternate history.  The divergence point could be placed in the '90s or earlier.  That way we don't have to worry about the fact that the WCG doesn't exist yet, or that the BioCrisis hasn't started (as far as we know...).  Or that Mai would be a little girl living in Japan right now!  If the story is thought of as a formal alternate history, then we don't need to be concerned with the fact that the year of the game's setting is a lot closer than it used to be when it came out.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#41 19/8/19 18:00

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:

Re: Oni's timeline meshing with ours, I prefer to think that Oni takes place in an alternate history.  The divergence point could be placed in the '90s or earlier.  That way we don't have to worry about the fact that the WCG doesn't exist yet, or that the BioCrisis hasn't started (as far as we know...).  Or that Mai would be a little girl living in Japan right now!  If the story is thought of as a formal alternate history, then we don't need to be concerned with the fact that the year of the game's setting is a lot closer than it used to be when it came out.

Yes, definitely.

It is unintended irony however that - according to some, the world is, in fact, facing a Bio Crisis of sorts in the form of anthropogenic climate change. It's equally interesting that just as many people feel that we're living in a time when "the truth" is often withheld from the public by the powers that be - government or otherwise.

I wasn't trying to be prophetic with the story at the time. It just happened that, as I was trying to make the story pieces fit together into a cohesive whole, the nature and motivations of the bad guys kind of came to me. I wish today's headlines sound like the opening chorus of the kind of societal collapse that the Oni story presages.

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#42 27/8/19 18:20

auggie
Member
Registered: 17/8/19

Re: I'm new here!

Silly question, but what's the meaning of the game's title, Oni?

Last edited by auggie (27/8/19 18:20)

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#43 7/9/19 14:47

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

auggie wrote:

Silly question, but what's the meaning of the game's title, Oni?

Oni is the Japanese word for a demon, or devil.

Brent Pease picked that word when he created the project in the first place, but he misunderstood the meaning. He thought it meant "ghost", and he chose it specifically because he wanted to reference Ghost in the Shell, which was part of his inspiration for the project.

When I was writing the story, part of my goal was to try and find a way to make the word "demon" be significant in the symbolism of the game.

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