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#51 29/8/17 4:02

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Oni remake

I agree with ltemplar.

The weapons in oni are "weak" in purpose. The devs wanted to focus the gameplay to hand combat, not shooting. Look at the guns as a bonus.

Also I agree that using back button as block is a bad idea, it looks even worse than auto block. You should use a dedicated button for blocking like "C" (close to WASD) for instance.

I also love the (futuristic) design of the last image that you have put. Reminds me of mukade actually.

Last edited by s10k (29/8/17 4:02)

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#52 29/8/17 4:29

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Oni remake

Stealth can be mixed in from time to time. Deus Ex Human Revolution was fun to play with all its different possibilities. So, it could be done. (Generally I don't see a problem in any feature but it would be too time consuming to add just everything that comes to mind and then even balancing these. Though stealth should be more easier than other stuff.)

I agree with Ltemplar and Script, more powerful weapon would be a problem to the balance unless you retouch the h2h as well.
For example you could provide possibilities to enhance your protection. Either use and upgrade armor and shields or USE YOUR FREAKING DAODAN smile

Primary Daodan traits
- Power (either throwing or using heavy objects and enemies as weapons (e.g. using a skriker as Nunchaku with maxed out power))
- Speed (running, combat speed, reflexes (dodging, counters))
- Healing (stopping a heavy bleeding and recovery speed)
- Adapting (mutation speed (biological computing by means of "Oni cluster" cells))
- Mechanical resistance (adaptions to pressure and kinetic damage (e.g. graphene enhanced cells))
- Physical resistance (VDG, plasma, phase stream projectors (electric isolation))
- Chemical resistance (acid, poison (lead bullets, mercury bow bullets))
- Biological resistance (screamer cells, infections by untreated wounds)
- Nuclear resistance (Oni 2 scenarios)
Basically you can "tank up" against weapons and don't need to worry about ammo.

Secondary Daodan traits
- Your daodan abilities depend on daodan biomass which means you can either unlock new abilities or enhance existing ones. And there's a limit to your abilities, because your cell count is limited.
- There should be one or two "ultimates" in Imago stage that depend on your evolution.
- Your number of daodan cells depend on taken damage and recovery that happen in the last level.
- But too much damage can cause too high growth rates (temporary sudden pain and fever resulting in moments of reduced vision, shooting accuracy, "getting blocked" rate) or it simply kills you because you exceeded the maximal healing capacity of the daodan.
- Sytropin can help you in lowering growth rates. Be aware of increasing drug resistance as the game progresses.
- Reverting an existing mutation takes more "work" than establishing a new one. Basically your course of action is directed evolution.

Last edited by paradox-01 (29/8/17 6:47)

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#53 29/8/17 4:42

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Oni remake

Yup exactly.

The idea is to make weapons to be kings on the long/medium range but in close quarters combat it should be the H2H time to shine.In short weapons take more time to eliminate a mob like character(especially armored one) , but if player use melee he should be able to kill him relatively quickly(especially in on on one scenario -exception bosses).
So according to this  :
Weapons that are self repeating (ale types of Machine guns)- plenty of ammo but low dmg.
Weapons that are medium to short range (pistols , shotgun, smg) more dmg less ammo
Short range/CQC: the melee + weapons like swords daggers etc.- The most dmg dealt compared to all thus 3.
The only exception to this rule are : sniper rifles and rocket lunchers /heavy guns.
-The sniper should have long time to aim at enemy(to gave him time to duck take cover laser indicator is the perfect example for this)
-The heavy guns should deal astronomic amount of dmg(because You know they are heavy), but on the other hand should be relatively easily to dodge/evade.

EDIT:
The other approach to the problem could be that if player/AI is sprinting(a.k.a. dash)the bullet transparency could be set to 50% , while doging/evading to 75% and when in H2H combat state/moves to 100%(or whatever numbers you will set). That way you are relatively. safe from the shooters while in h2h combat and you have the chance to get close without being shoot to death.
The bullet transparency mechanic means that you have x% chance that passing bullet will fly trough your character hit box.


Ltemplar.

Last edited by ltemplar (29/8/17 4:59)

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#54 29/8/17 7:06

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Oni remake

I think I can go with the first part but adding bullet transparency sounds like some sort of cheating. I would want to see how Konoko survives with what she got: as very valued property to the TCTF she could be given a red shield (a.k.a. boss shield). You could recharge it with energy cells and while it's active, bullets do damage more similar to punches and kicks as the bullet isn't fully blocked but only massively slowed down before impact. It's like wearing bullet proof vests: you might not get killed, but you definitively take damage and it hurts a lot.

Last edited by paradox-01 (29/8/17 7:23)

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#55 29/8/17 8:27

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Oni remake

And what happen if you run out from the energy cells to energize your bullet prof shield?Restart?
That's the main problem.
But I will go even further. How You plan to increase chances of survival for the non player characters controlled by AI in the gun fight if the same rules will be applied to them as well?Everybody with shield?
That may work to some degree but where is then this rarity of Hi tech equipment You mentioned earlier.

BTW. bullet transparency as mechanic , is present in many games ...but players will probably never be able to spot them(if appalled right).I'm not the biggest fan of it too , but if he plan to do smoothing more realistic and having the H2H as option then this will probably be the best middle ground between shooting and fighting. But even then CQC with mobs should be really fast to avoid frustration.

The first option from the other hand gave the best control over the character types(this one is better armoured and this one is faster and more agile),  is more appropriate for the AI controlled characters(higher survivability rate) , and much easier to implement in general.
Choices....choices.

Ltemplar.

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#56 29/8/17 9:23

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Oni remake

> "And what happen if you run out from the energy cells to energize your bullet prof shield?"

It's not totally bullet proof... Also you would have to use your brain a bit, use your Daodan skills, too. If you don't you die of course. I guess there will be a learning curve like in Oni 1. When I played the game the first time I found it freaking challenging.
Actually I think the device should stop working at some point for various reasons. When Konoko becomes a renegade the shield can't be maintained/repaired by your TCTF techies anymore. The many fights will make it burn out eventually. It sets more focus on your Daodan which is a very important element of the story - or at least it should be. It would be a shame not use it. If you had the choice between an Iron Demon and a Daodan, what would be take? Think in long terms.

As for the AI. Not everybody would wear a weapon. Those who don't would call for help and try to lock you up waiting for reinforcement or kill you with a vehicle. Or they engage you don't a have a weapon or ammo anymore. Those who do wear weapons would be more likely to have armor, too.

On the other hand the player needs to be stronger to save him against the evil mob - justified by his importance or whatever.
You are fighting multiple enemies, either in series, or by more than one at once. If there's no advantage at all the player would be dead in a pretty short time. Imaging, the first thug in Oni 1 A_t48 would have the same movement set, health, overpower and weapon and you wouldn't have hypos - that would be very frustrating and that would have only be the beginning.

I'm not really keen of discussing the influence of weapons and countermeasures (smoke bomb, EMP, disarming, stealth, human shields, and what not). This better to be tested in a dev env - which we don't have anyway. In any case I think making weapons more dangerous will complicate the game - not necessary bad if you look at Metal Gear Solid series - but I doubt you would want the workload behind it.

You can favor whatever you want, I'm just not the same opinion with you here. Don't get mad about it. smile

Last edited by paradox-01 (29/8/17 10:16)

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#57 29/8/17 9:37

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Oni remake

I haven't said much in this thread so far just because I think we're putting the cart before the horse.  Pierre did a ton of work before he started releasing builds of Konoko Payne.  (And by the way, he abandoned the project because he realized he couldn't keep up with modern game engines singlehandedly, and wanted to move on to other interests in life.)

In this case, we just have a screenshot with a mockup of a Konoko model and some boxes, and then you say "it's not difficult to add physics and logic to this".  I'm not sure if you realize what you're getting into here.  What sort of coding experience do you have?  Have you scripted even a simple game in Blender?  It's going to be hard to garner much interest by just talking about game design and posting screenshots of boxes.  How do people know if it's worth their time to comment until you've done some preliminary work on your own?

On the subject of game design, anything that I would have said has already been said by ltemplar.  However I don't understand why any fans are negative about the auto-block feature.  Have none of you played Street Fighter, where that feature comes from?  In Oni you have to also make sure you're facing your opponent before blocking will work, adding a dimension to its usage.  This is called simplicity in control design, and it's a good thing.  Adding a button to do something you can already do without a button has always been something that I'm 100% opposed to, as Oni was intended to be easily picked up and played without having to memorize a lot of keys.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#58 29/8/17 10:10

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

guys, i already thought about the weapon balance bro. there is real reason i'm changing the weapon balance. the game will be way more fun once u see how i balance it.  i just didn't have the time to explain it. since u guys asked it, i will explain it.

main issues is weapons aren't a threat in Oni. u can literally run up to anybody with a heavy assault weapon and dispatch them. this makes weapon pointless. in fact, u can get through Oni without weapons at all easily. weapon don't have any strategic advantage cause they pose no real threat. that's makes Oni really dumbed down.

the whole point of making a sequel is it does something completely different and be better.

u automatically think u have to balance it one way or another. it's not true. i already thought long and hard about this.

it's not realistic that konoko can take direct hits from a plasma rifle and survive. that weapon could probably melt through steel. in no conceivable reality can a real person take a direct hit of those at close weapon. that's a heavy assault weapon of war, not really a 1 v 1 weapon for mall security guys . a mercury bow probably can pierce armor on a tank for how much tech that weapon has. in fact, that weapon should have a x-ray scope on it. it's designed to go through building and hit their target. that's how powerful that weapon is.

standard pistol should only have about 5 or six round.  a head shot from that will kill anybody. konoko, 2 shots cause she is super strong. but it's very difficult for an enemy to head shot you.

inexperienced enemy will have less accuracy, plus, you will be moving. ur dumb if you run directly toward a enemy without stealth anyway. u deserve to die. for inexperienced guards, you probably can avoid the weapon by strafing and close in for an disarm.

1. ammo scarcity

here is how it will be balance. early ware house level, ammo scarcity is one way. just like the a police don't carry fucken five clips on him, the first level is lightly guarded.  it's dumb that the enemies have infinite ammo as it seems.  factory works aren't armed. they may have melee weapons like torches or crow bars. that's it. they may try to pick up a gun that's dropped, but that's rare.

there will be people with pistols, but they may carry five rounds and maybe 1 extra clip top. it's not till the later level do the enemy get more serious and maybe have 4 clips on him.

2. finger print id

now this is future, most of these guns are probably going to have finger print identification on it. u can perform disarm moves on those weapons but u have to have a finger print to actually fire them. back these can be hacked to gain access. obviously, i design the level around which guns can be hacked.

3. weapon unavability

certain section of level, u would not have access to a weapon. this forces you to uses had to hand combat.

4. enemy discovery punishment

u may be in a facility where you compromise your stealth by doing firing a shot.  this will be lethal cause you may have 5 enemies with guns. well, u will heavily punished for this.

6. level augmentation

level augmentation is designing the complete level using those 4 methods to where it seemlessly transition between weapon scarcity, stealth, and identification.

7. weapon carry limits

you may only be allowed to carry 1 weapon early on. it's only later u get the tactical gear to like carry a mercury bow on your back and maybe 1 pistol. but this is only during certain segment of the level.

u can't spam weapons cause of ammo scarcity so u have to strategically use them.

so the first level for example may have two guards with guns. they gona carry no extra clip.  they may have 4 rounds in the chamber. so you may only be able to carry 4 rounds because u can only carry 1 gun. with 4 rounds, you can only kill 2 enemies with it.

so i don't even have to use the other methods.

see wat i'm saying.


the back block button is wat i am having issue with. there has to be a dedicated block button for good reason. auto block is too dumbed down.

want u to do a simple experiment. go to a striker and face him on airport level. go take piss. u will still be alive afterwards with more than half your health. that's why auto block is dumb

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 10:21)

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#59 29/8/17 10:19

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Oni remake

Paradox I'm not mad at You at all. I only pointed out that game balancing h2h versus weapon is not as easy as adding magical shields and this alone will make wonders. Hence even adding special daodan features will not resolve it. I was referring to the part where player will have the backup of AI controlled companions- if they be death in 5 seconds after the entrance on stage, then this will not be the most brilliant mechanic don't you agree?

To irytscen. Probably his still under charm of the logic bricks that are basic programming tool in blender which are easy to use for simple tasks such as movement etc, but when it comes to programming something more complex (AI for example) ..well that's another story. If his knowledge abut python is not above average level he will probably will not goes to far with this project anyway. But Hey... lets wait and see.

Ltemplar.

Last edited by ltemplar (29/8/17 10:32)

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#60 29/8/17 10:39

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

it's not a screen shot of konoko with some boxes. that's a screen shot of the game engine actually running. if you were playing the game, that's how it will look exactly. that says something.

probably won't use logic bricks at all. i admit AI is more tricky, but for how long i have programmed, not gona be that much of an issue.

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#61 29/8/17 10:50

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Oni remake

I don't believe in magic. Thank you, I heard enough.

You can't use the argument of adding more realism and then say bullet transparency fits to it.

Last edited by paradox-01 (29/8/17 11:02)

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#62 29/8/17 11:19

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

don't know what bullet transparency means but i am assuming.

weapon scarcity and carry capacity is used to balance h2h

factory level, only three arm guards with pistols. 4 rounds in the chamber.

2 shot will kill a easy enemy. shot to head auto kills a easy enemy.

u allowed only to carry 1 gun at first. no guards will drop extra magazines. we assume they are lightly armed.

how is that not real. u see any police officer carrying 10 mags and dual wield a pistol. they may carry 2 extra mags and have some extra mags in the car. but infinite ammo is dumb.

realism means correct balance too.

so if u stealth kill one guard and take his weapon. you will have 4 rounds in the chamber.

technically, you can kill 4 people with it if you correctly head shot somebody at close distance. accuracy of pistol probably diminishes at long range at the risk of probably compromising your stealth.

but i just gave you game knowledge. here though, usually, it takes experience to learn this but i'm giving u some info here.

torso shot does less, but 2 shot to kill.

u can't really spam weapon cause it's scarce. so u are forced to conserve ammo for vital situations.

finger print ID is only for certain situations. very rare i use this method as balance. this may be used for more advance weapons like the mercury bow where u have to obtain access code.

a direct hit from a mercury bow will kill you because this weapon is designed to pierce through tanks. but u limited two two rounds a mag. mag are scarce for this weapon obviously.

weapon segment. there can be a segment where you have to rely on weapons. where hand to hand just won't cut it off. again, accordance with realism. but the enemy will have weapons too. so your weapon skills are tested purely.

much like real life, u learn H2H to deal with situation without weapons. doesn't mean H2H is underpowered. just means u are prepared for all situations.

so everything is situational. u may be in a situation where all you have is 4 round in a chamber and 5 arm guards.  but the game designer get to dictate wat situation is.

in fact, the optimum strategy would be to conserve ammo in this game cause u may run into a situation where u need to use a gun but don't have a ranged weapon.


this game is actually gona be way harder than the original Oni because u have to use alot of strategy. anybody remember the 3rd level where u have to make your way to the top of that building.

that was the most exciting level in the game cause all the guards had automatic assault weapons. where u have to use a combination of hand to hand and stealth to win.

but ruined that level is eventually, your hand to hand to hand get so good where u just spam H2H. i'm making a sequel where u can't do that. where you have to be strategic and just camp jump kick some dude with a uzi

most of you guys discount planning when planning is everything. if i typed out a detailed version of my plans, this would be 10 pages. in fact, most of my time was spend planning the game. don't know why planning is discounted.

in fact, most people jump into game making with no real vision. that's why there are so many games but so few good ones.

it's hard to do a remake for Oni cause oni set the bar so high. that's why the plan has to be this detailed and thought out. cause i'm focused on toping the original.

ai is definitely tricky. also, making the animation feel organic and have it have the freedom like the original but at the same time improving it is tricky.

it's not so much as do i have the program skills. that's just one part. it's really knowing wat you trying to achieve. no way i would go into a remake with veterans players of oni without real ideas.

rite now, i 'm trying to come up with an exact first level and possibility a training level to before it. everything is pretty much figured out. now, i got figure how exactly the ware house is laid out, the puzzle, and the story which is all connected.

i'm starting out with basic climb moves, the most fundamental. obvious, konoko can jump on boxes. she can grab on ledge and get up from it. she can side shimmer ledges like tomb raider. but it's not gona feel like tomb raider, it's gona feel like ONi. i may do ladders later.

don't want to spoil too much on the first level but if u guys put everything i have said together, u probably have a general idea of how the first ware house level is gona be.

now the story line is actually the hard part because we have to know why she is infiltrating the warehouse and wat exactly she is sent to do. really haven't figured out this part yet for some reason. i feel like the story is the hardest.

i'm gona say she is sent to investigate wat's happening in the warehouse. but the game is gona u have to start from the outside and work your way in. but u going to find out the ware house is used to smuggle weapons for the syndicate. however, there has to be a clear objective though. not too sure wat to do here.

so i can do like this. the front part of the ware house is regular, nothing out of the ordinary, but as u investigate you find out what the syndicate are doing in the warehouse. the level will end once u figured out wat the ware house is used for. obviously, "figuring out" is not a triggered event to end the level. the level ends when u reach a specific point of level. talking level design here. i'm really rushing to make exact plans for the first level, but at the same time, i don't want to give away too much.

wat  you will be able to expect first level, new feature

1. more detailed konoko, high poly as shown in concept art.
2. more detailed level design and creative puzzles
3. climbing
4. vehicles (don't know if i can do this part in the first level though)

these are my objective.

the whole point of this project is to show a remake is better, and it offers improvements and everybody shouldn't be stuck playing an old game.

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 12:39)

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#63 29/8/17 12:43

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Oni remake

> most of you guys discount planning when planning is everything. if i typed out a detailed version of my plans, this would be 10 pages.

If you take yourself serious you have now to type these 10 pages.

Last edited by paradox-01 (29/8/17 12:43)

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#64 29/8/17 13:06

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

it's better if i just work on the first level and have a playable demo integrating all the concepts i discussed. everyone seem jaded with talk and want to see some work.

that hd mod of konoko looked cold. i mite go with that look. if so, the game is going to be closer to a pierre look. so almost like a classic remake.

as for the block thing, not gona worry about it until i actually have some combat to test it out.

that's why i was looking for input. i may just have "F" be block. everything else would work normal.

i am shadow testing with the actual game and "F" seem to work. that will appease the fans.

its actually harder now, if i go that route, you would have to be facing the enemy and be pressing "F" to block.

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 16:29)

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#65 29/8/17 16:53

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

i'm thinking about going with this look. some on the forum did this. i think. i'm gona copy the look.

SNAG-0191.jpg

the model i do in blender is going to be geometrically the same, but i don't know if i have time to do the fading on the suit. that's pretty intricate.

if someone could provide the face and suit texture in any image format for me, be great. just make easier for me. i can work around it. but i want to stay faithful to the look, that's why i'm asking.

there is really great talent on the mod team, people needs to show case it.

u guys haven't even seen wat i can do yet. that's why this project is going to be fun.

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 17:15)

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#66 29/8/17 17:36

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

toying with the idea of modeling konoko so i have an asset to play with animate watever.

sidebyside.png

this was a base mesh i did along time ago, i trying to retool for it for this high poly look.

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#67 29/8/17 19:00

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

this is actually way more fun than i thought it was. u get to decide every detail of the level design. i will post more pics once i do more.

feel like the original overhead for pierre project was having to code a custom engine. also with the original game too.  as with this approach here, u just have to add animation and logic. i have to do some modeling but it's not too bad cause blender has a built in modeler.

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 19:10)

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#68 29/8/17 19:26

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Oni remake

@semicloud You can find the Black Ops textures in this package: http://mods.oni2.net/node/215

Here is how Konoko looks in Blender (The bones structure was for Overgrowth animal characters, so there are extra bones for ears and tail)

Konoko_Blend.png

If you want to look at the Blender file:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xec8ltmij4i0c … .zip?raw=1

This has the file exported as .obj with texture files (Again this was for Overgrowth):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj5s51xc5v695 … .zip?raw=1

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#69 29/8/17 19:36

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

i need it in a jpeg or any standard image format. how do i extract it. how do i extract .cfg and .oni files

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 19:45)

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#70 29/8/17 19:43

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Oni remake

Sorry, I forgot the textures were in .dds format for Overgrowth.

Here are the original textures in .tga format. I believe Blender should be able to import them: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5st7v80sifcc … .zip?raw=1

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#71 29/8/17 19:55

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

hey thanks, i will note u in the credits if i use them. mostly likely i will.

u have the black op texture on download by any chance.  i may go for that look.

not vibing with the model, i probably gona redo the model to look more like the screen shot using my own base mesh.

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 19:57)

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#72 29/8/17 20:48

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

trying to pace myself and have fun with this project.

i look at some comments on pierre project. some people were complaining about how it didn't have the feel of the original. this game here i'm trying to avoid all the pit falls of remake. because i'm adding new gameplay, i pay utomst attention to perserving the feel. meaning i will have to match the animation and perserve the feel. it's interesting to see how close i can get it.

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#73 29/8/17 21:06

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Oni remake

Here are the Blackops textures in tga format: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwfmj1q6xuf9l … .zip?raw=1

Note these are individual textures as used in Oni.  You will need to group them into a single texture to use in Blender, just like the textures I linked to earlier.

That's the most important thing with a project, have fun doing it!

One thing I appreciate with this forum is that we share information/knowledge on our projects.  There are a number of tutorials on how to accomplish some modding task. There is even a wiki: http://wiki.oni2.net/Main_Page

So I hope that as you progress in your project, you can share how you accomplished things in Blender.  That may encourage others to give it a try or at least the knowledge is preserved for reference.

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#74 29/8/17 21:09

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

i'm kinda playing with the level design. here

leveldesign.png

that left wall actually represent a fence, and those long concrete protruding from the wall represent trucks docking at ware house. now, i haven't textured the scene yet but the graphic is going to be similar to pierre's and the original by how much detail i'm putting in the level design.

however, a key difference is she will be able to get on top of those trucks by jumping on a ledge.

that konoko in the scene very small is in scale but it's an older model i did. i'm not gona use that one. i'm working on one that looks more like the black op mod in level of detail and feel.

for the first level, i'm not going to spend that much time on the detail of level.

now, this game can be easily modded as you can see. u can actually open up all my project files with blender. it will be easy to mod.

i'm going to share up all my project files for anyone wishing to mod it. right now, it's too early of course cause i don't have any logic or physics to it but i'm just pointing things out as we go.

Last edited by semicloud (29/8/17 21:14)

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#75 29/8/17 23:43

semicloud
Member
Registered: 25/7/07

Re: Oni remake

thanks edt for the texture. i'll put them to good use.

i'll definitely share the project files once i make more progress on it, and if people respond positively to it.

Last edited by semicloud (30/8/17 0:21)

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