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#26 29/1/08 11:22

Mukade's_Finest
Member
Registered: 29/1/08

Re: Mukade Speculation

"Anyway, having Mukade being Muro's bitch is not the only way to keep him from being Muro's rival. My preference so far is that he's Muro's peer. Muro's rise to power is a little miracle: it's near-impossible for a teenager to break down the old hierarchy and build a new one on charisma alone."
*I really do like to believe that Mukade is Bertram Navarre. If you don't know about that, it's in the info console near the bottom of the elevator shaft on TCTF HQ. His research involved advanced froms of cloning, which is exactly the kind of thing Muro needs to create more chrysali. he also had heavy syndicate ties, as he was purchasing experimental subjects from them. Even though he was presumed dead by the TCTF, his body was never found, so he probably was able to escape and survive with Muro's help, hence his role as a "junkie bitch" smile. Muro probably needed him to gain influence in the syndicate. In this theory, they are partners with mutal respect.

And yes, I believe that Muro is stronger than Mai. She won because she had Love and Peace on her side smile

Mukade was in Mai's head, so it's possible they have a psychic connection through the chrysalis, which is why I believe Mai was correct in believing that Mukade was a cornered animal.

I think that there is evidence to support Mukade's Nihilism in statements such as "let the bliss of oblivion free you..."

Mai herself is a good person who believes in saving the world etc. but the chrysalis can have uncontrollable effects, as described in one of the TCTF HQ data consoles (I think it's in a room near shinatama's chair). It said that if her latency spikes due to intense action or emotional stress, she could go berserk, which might have been something Muron wanted to invoke through manipulating her with the data stolen from the Sate Building. You know, like a Luke Skywalker and the Emperor kind of thing.

I'm surprised that they use discs even though they have plasma rifles, personal force fields, and drugs that instantly heal bullet wounds.

Another thing, what does he really mean by "All you have done by hunting me is force me to fight. You should have let me go."? He obviously really didn't want to fight Mai, but why exactly? I don't think he thinks he can defeat Mai, but then why did he corner himself? He could've just ran down the street, but he had to go to the tallest building in the city. And was he really running away? Syndicate troops were everywhere, somehow unnoticed by the authorities, surrounding the State Building. Were they there to cover Mukade's escape, Eliminate Mai, or provide the illusion that Mai had to fight her way into what was really a trap? Based on his statement, it seems like Mukade's mission was to actually get away with the data. I think Muro might have been hoping she would be captured by the TCTF, so he could come to the rescue with all the answers behind the lies the TCTF has told her to somehow bring her to his side.

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#27 29/1/08 11:24

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

@ geyser: Okay, just checking.  On both counts. smile

It would have been interesting if the CD Mukade was holding all that time just turns out to be a mix CD he was working on.  Mai starts using it, and she's like, "What the frack?  Nine Inch Nails?  Rage Against the Machine?  What is this?"

Last edited by Iritscen (29/1/08 11:24)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#28 29/1/08 19:16

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

"I really do like to believe that Mukade is Bertram Navarre." That's a fair enough possibility, but there are other ways to reintroduce Navarre into Oni's plot (e.g., as Barabas), just as there are other important characters whose death is not accounted for (e.g., Hasegawa).

"Muro probably needed him to gain influence in the syndicate. In this theory, they are partners with mutual respect." I am not sure "respect" is the right word here, as you are basically talking about 2 maniac scientists working on a mad project together.
You don't make it clear (to say the least) as for who needed whom in the first place. Muro couldn't have Navarre rescued from Picasso Island unless he (Muro) was already in power, and if the initiative is Navarre's, just when did he become Muro's slave?
As for the mutual respect, I'm convinced (with all due subjectivity) that it can only occur if there's some sort of family bond between the two. Muro won't respect or tolerate anyone who isn't either a (surrogate) son for him, or a (surrogate) father. IMO.

Anyhow, it sounds like a good starting point to assume that the presumably dead Navarre either escaped or was collected, and ended up at the Syndicate: his skills were still needed, but on a 100% different project than what he had worked on until then.
Then, I wouldn't provide any definite proof of Navarre having become Mukade, or Barabas, just as I wouldn't resolve Hasegawa's fate. We are helped by the fact that Barabas and Mukade are largely alienated, and thus faceless and "past-less".

"I think Muro might have been hoping she would be captured by the TCTF, so he could come to the rescue with all the answers behind the lies the TCTF has told her to somehow bring her to his side."
Very interesting move, and it would be nice to develop it some further, e.g., as a side story or an alternate ending to Oni. If everything else fails, any such possibility can be explored by means of "what if?" Daodan Dreams.

"I think that there is evidence to support Mukade's Nihilism in statements such as "let the bliss of oblivion free you..." "
Nihilism is an interesting trait of Muro's Strikers I would like to explore, but I wouldn't say it's at its most blatant in Mukade's tirades.
My impression is that the Strikers running amok on the civilians, or the "doomed" suicide bombers are much more dramatic nihilists.
It would seem to me that most of Muro's troops do not hope for a Chrysalis, and are OK with dying for Muro, for STURMANDERUNG.
Note, then, that their sadistic attitude for civilians is not really disgust for the human race. It's more like an elaborate kind of pity smile
Since "we are all doomed" anyway, aren't those Strikers acting along the lines of Hasegawa's "religion" (that pollution is forever)?

"It said that if her latency spikes due to intense action or emotional stress, she could go berserk, which might have been something Muro wanted to invoke through manipulating her with the data stolen from the State Building. You know, like a Luke Skywalker and the Emperor kind of thing."
Again, not a bad point, although I don't feel comfortable with Star Wars good/evil clichés. Mai is prone to violence even though she's a good person, and especially since she's Daodan-enhanced she's becoming an angel of death. I'm not sure what means Muro has to convert Mai to the "dark side", but he can certainly tease her about how her so-called righteousness contrasts with her killer instincts.

"I'm surprised that they use discs even though they have plasma rifles, personal force fields, and drugs that instantly heal bullet wounds."
The disc in the .MISSION COMPLETE screen looks weird, but apart from that it looks like one of our Blu-Ray-somethings, and it's OK, really.

"Mai starts using it, and she's like, "What the frack?  Nine Inch Nails?  Rage Against the Machine?  What is this?""
I had no plans for RATM, but you hit the nail on the head with NIN, pardon the pun. Can you guess the track?
(it's an AMV project: she sits down in the lab, loads the CD into the laptop, and that NIN track starts playing)

Another thing, what does he really mean by "All you have done by hunting me is force me to fight. You should have let me go."? He obviously really didn't want to fight Mai, but why exactly? I don't think he thinks he can defeat Mai, but then why did he corner himself? He could've just ran down the street, but he had to go to the tallest building in the city. And was he really running away? Syndicate troops were everywhere, somehow unnoticed by the authorities, surrounding the State Building. Were they there to cover Mukade's escape, Eliminate Mai, or provide the illusion that Mai had to fight her way into what was really a trap? Based on his statement, it seems like Mukade's mission was to actually get away with the data. I think Muro might have been hoping she would be captured by the TCTF, so he could come to the rescue with all the answers behind the lies the TCTF has told her to somehow bring her to his side.

Hm, that's a rather confused piece. You seem to be freely drifting from one theory to another between sentences. Rather elusive, I'd say. Maybe you were born to be a ninja? smile
First of all, it's a bad idea to pose anything at all as "obvious" when it comes to Oni's plot: why is it obvious that Mukade didn't want to fight Mai? Because he says so? Because Mai feels so? "Who can you trust?"
If his goal was to escape, then why didn't he use the many chances he had to do so? Why did he do everything exactly as if it was his goal to meet her face to face, far away from the TCTF or his own troops?


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#29 30/1/08 2:25

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

>>G:
A little place called Marathon.
Watch out for Them. They're everywhere.

>>I:
That post has made me laugh. You win 5 internets.

>>general:

Thing is, with Nevarre -- He's a scientist. A nerd. A labcoat.
While the Daodan gives you strength, endurance, speed, etc. it doesn't give you TRAINING. Wich Mukade and Barabas seem to have to some degree.

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#30 30/1/08 8:47

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

"A little place called Marathon." Oh, you mean this? http://home.comcast.net/~chrismb/marathon1.html

Thing is, with Nevarre -- He's a scientist. A nerd. A labcoat.
While the Daodan gives you strength, endurance, speed, etc. it doesn't give you TRAINING.
Which Mukade and Barabas seem to have to some degree.

The Daodan can help the host assimilate 3rd-party brain engrams, which normally only works for babies or SLDs.
Another point is that reflexes are delocalized in a totipotent biomass, so that works even if the brain stays human.
(say, if Navarre is Barabas, then his brain is still that of a nerd, and only the rest of his body knows how to fight)
Coming back to Mukade, it has been suggested that he may be wearing a power suit that assists him in combat.
(exoskeleton or implants, possibly similar to the frame of the other ninja; same thing as massive cyborgization)
Personally, I'm rather keen on brain engrams, because they redefine the host's identity: good for "ambiguation".


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#31 30/1/08 9:44

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

lol at the Marathon story in 5 minutes.

"It said that if her latency spikes due to intense action or emotional stress, she could go berserk, which might have been something Muro wanted to invoke through manipulating her with the data stolen from the State Building. You know, like a Luke Skywalker and the Emperor kind of thing."
Again, not a bad point, although I don't feel comfortable with Star Wars good/evil clichés. Mai is prone to violence even though she's a good person, and especially since she's Daodan-enhanced she's becoming an angel of death. I'm not sure what means Muro has to convert Mai to the "dark side", but he can certainly tease her about how her so-called righteousness contrasts with her killer instincts.

You could make the same comparison to Luke in Star Wars.  He's using a weapon which is best suited for killing, but he's trying to be a good person.  Star Wars doesn't really adhere to traditional good/evil mores, or else the Jedi would all be pacifists.  The fact that at least some are, according to the prequel, scary sword-swinging warriors would seem to contradict the notion that they're purely good.  You can in fact see the Jedi becoming more warlike in response to the rise of the Dark Side in Ep.s I-III, just as Mai is led to greater acts of violence through fighting against Muro's schemes.

And the dark side is largely about the same things that Muro is about: holding ruthless power over others, disdain for life.  Muro is even hideously transformed by his power, like the Emperor and Darth Vader (yes, Darth Vader was "transformed" by a pit of lava, but the point is, his move to the Dark Side was responsible, which is what Lucas wanted us to take away from it).  But I'll stop here before my Star Wars nerd cup runneth over.

The disc in the .MISSION COMPLETE screen looks weird, but apart from that it looks like one of our Blu-Ray-somethings, and it's OK, really.

It's bigger than normal CDs/DVDs, isn't it?  I think they just goofed on the scale, but it's true that it's not that important.

I had no plans for RATM, but you hit the nail on the head with NIN, pardon the pun. Can you guess the track?
(it's an AMV project: she sits down in the lab, loads the CD into the laptop, and that NIN track starts playing)

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with NIN.  I was just trying to think of something that Mukade would listen to.  I was thinking dark, nihilistic.

Another thing, what does he really mean by "All you have done by hunting me is force me to fight. You should have let me go."? He obviously really didn't want to fight Mai, but why exactly? I don't think he thinks he can defeat Mai, but then why did he corner himself? He could've just ran down the street, but he had to go to the tallest building in the city.

Actually, I kind of wondered why Mukade couldn't just teleport to another rooftop.  (Didn't someone actually get him to do that in Oni?)  I mean, you can never "corner" someone who can teleport.  So this supports geyser's notion that he wanted to encounter Mai.  Why there?  Well, she's gotten past/outrun all his cronies.  So they're all alone.  It's an interesting thought.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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