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#26 7/2/07 12:41

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

Well, I thought she'd look like that. Sexy enough, if you ask me.
The face is actually a blend of Mai's and Mutant Muro's face textures.
Shoulders and hands are Mutant Muro's: I kept Mai's textures for those.
I've never seen an angel of death/destruction myself, so I have no idea.
Maybe they're more scary than Mutant Muro, who knows.
Besides, wings suck. Telekinesis and levitation, maybe.

EDIT: woot, second page!

Last edited by geyser (7/2/07 12:42)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#27 7/2/07 20:11

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

You know, one question that occurred to me is this: would cyborgs be a possibility in the new human society?  I mean, you could have humans who transfer their brains into robot bodies equipped with air filters in order to survive the poisonous atmosphere.  When you consider that cyborgs never appeared in Oni, it might make you wonder if there is a reason why they should not appear afterwards.  Personally, I think it would make sense if the survivors tried a variety of ways to survive the poisonous environment, and not just one way.  wink

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#28 8/2/07 8:59

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

wink With no centralized regulation, anything goes. And cyborgization is no high-end technology, so why not, indeed?
Especially since cyborgs pose no ethical dilemma until you push the same limit as in Ghost in the Shell. As for Oni...
The Deadly Brain is an extreme example of cyborgization. Barabas, too, looks like he's part Imago, part cyborg.
Note that originally, Konoko was supposed to be either a "legal Tanker" (combat SLD) or a cyborg à la Kusanagi.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#29 8/2/07 18:48

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

Really?  Well, I do remember seeing a web site on Oni somewhere that was speculating whether she was a human, a robot, or a cyborg.  At least, that's what I think it going on about there. 

You know, I heard claims about how the game Oni is supposed to be based off of Ghost in the Shell, but that never made sense to me.  I actually saw several parts of the first movie on satellite, and looked enough on the Internet to know that Oni doesn't seem to have that much in common with Ghost in the Shell.  Of course, after what you said there, I think I'm beginning to understand why there are claims like that.  smile

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#30 9/2/07 5:31

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

Have a look at the first trailer and the related talk on marathon.bungie.org
Also have a look at the pre-Lorraine prom art (at least I don't think it was Lorraine who drew the cyborg Konoko).
I'll put up a collection of old prom art unless Harry does it first; as compared to his, mine is probably incomplete...
Basically, she has hypertrophiated muscles, and little steel plates under her eyes (like Shinatama and Tankers).
On the whole, one could say the original Konoko was very much like Motoko smile  Maybe they got their ass sued?


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#31 9/2/07 9:22

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

Well, I had a look at the trailer, but the picture was too small, so I couldn't really get a good look.  sad  I guess I'll just have find a way to adjust the size.  I did take a look at the other stuff, though, and you sure weren't kidding about the steel plates under her eyes.  That does seem similar to Shinatama, and I'm frankly glad that the steel plates were taken off Mai in the end.  big_smile

Now that I think about it, I think the final version of Konoko is a mix of Kusanagi (At least in terms of looks) and Wolverine (At least in terms of personality).  The results are interesting, to say the least.  smile

Last edited by stripeytiger (9/2/07 9:28)

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#32 9/2/07 15:59

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

Oh yes this trailer .. it hurts me .. all this cut stuff. (Not to mentioned this nice back-over-back-roll-attack.. sad )

But back to human society.. There was a little conservation on Oni Galore that would grow out of limit. Topical it's all connected so let us place it here. Please note full italic phrases as quotes.
(If I do it wrong then geyser say something and I will delete it by editing to blank.)

Order of talk fragments:

1)
It sounds like Konoko doesn't feel that it was her fault. This passive construction include her person in a way but lets place for speculation...

3)
Hm, I didn’t concentrate on “now”, “but” and “problem” so far. Let me speculate a bit (... adding value for a fictional text ^^ ) In aspect of translation: “now” is just an additional signal word for present time, in exist also in German but isn’t that much used. It missing shouldn’t be a “problem” like Konoko’s passive. (Well, how you said: it’s free translation, so let us just forget it.)
    Key word “problem”... I think it refer to catastrophe’s cause. Dead people = problem; toxic air = cause. After that everyone will ask the cause’s cause... toxic air <= exploded AACs <= Syndicate’s and Konoko’s actions <= and in the end (if the mad mob wants to know – hey, right now this made it impossible...) they ask about WCG non-doing of preventing more toxins. Here goes some manual sentence:
        TECH NOTE 1
        The World Coalition Government realizes the extent of the ecological damage and has the ability to reverse a lot of it but has decided not to.
        It is in their best interest to maintain the centralization of wealth so the large population centers are preserved while "third world" regions are  not.
        As a bonus the mounting death toll solves some of their overpopulation problems.

Anarchy as well (with or without Muro) -- it’s not even propaganda, it’s the truth:

1. WCG is blamed for “let air becoming toxic”.
2. Syndicate is blamed for “made increasing this shit”.

Result: chaos. The truth helps nobody, how ironic.
In facing of that threat there are two possibilities:

1. Syndicate could make an abstract PR show, blaming Konoko for everything. “She was ordered (by WCG!) to conserve status quo by blowing new poison into air.” (Remember Tech Hint 1 ... it’s non-sense but perhaps effective in front of a mad mob.)
2. Or they come to an agreement; you call it META already, right?

Maybe they will do both: first hunting(*) Konoko and stuff, then get to fusion with WCG.
(*)could be easy reason for getting Oni 2 melees.
More possibilities depend on Daodan interpretation (more “human-sized” ... but not now.)
I hope you I was able to filled your curiosity.^^

5)
Quote from ASFO2 page 6: Mr. Alloc, [...] just kill Muro and listen to the cinematic : "When I blew the Processors...".
Isn't he German too? who cares what the translators were smoking? For Oni 2 we should care^^

        I don't like the idea of setting a whole sequel in a post- apocalyptic environment
I will work on more background theories..

        That she turned a world-wide ultimatum in world-wide desolation. They'll "help her understand" just what her action has made her in the eyes of the public, that she couldn't have harmed the world's population more or helped the Syndicate in a more direct way than by doing what she did.

You mentioned ultimatum, so Muro didn't wanted an apocalypse. You thought in a "human-sized" way.^^ That would be a crossing point for my own stuff.
    She ignored WCG - yes because the first cause is the toxic air (you mentioned here, I did in forum). The Chaining is more out of a neutral one's view and out of her view. She don't care about past (general pollution) and future (desolation), she wanted to rescue the word by killing Muro only -- now your They'll "help her understand" from above comes again.

        (From ASFO2-thread (page 7)) : I don't want do diabolize the Daodan(*)
        (New quote) : How much of Mai's wishful thinking will actually come true?
Hm, after all that talk in "Strange things about Oni's plotline" thread.. - What is then about Muro's poetry..?

        Mai=scapegoat [...] Thus nothing stands in the way of fusion. + As for Mai, what would happen if she becomes the public enemy is, in short, a nightmare ^^
Absolute, in a first view Oni 2 gameplay would become mostly impossible. We need massive constructions .. erm, discussions how to..^^

Last edited by paradox-01 (9/2/07 16:15)

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#33 12/2/07 11:41

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Human society after the events in Oni

Well, I had a look at the trailer, but the picture was too small, so I couldn't really get a good look.

UPDATED. BTW, both QT and WM players should let you switch to fullscreen smile

Oh yes this trailer .. it hurts me .. all this cut stuff. (Not to mentioned this nice back-over-back-roll-attack.. smile )

It was authored from A to Z in a 3D modeler... nothing to do with ingame, so none of it was actually "cut".
A little of the combat choreography made it into the final game, though: Running Lariat, Tanker stuff...

But back to human society.. There was a little conservation on Oni Galore that would grow out of limit. Topical it's all connected so let us place it here. Please note full italic phrases as quotes.
(If I do it wrong then geyser say something and I will delete it by editing to blank.)

OK, I'll try and make a tidier version. With proper quotes smile

It all started with paradox nitpicking at the "deviations" between the original English version of Oni's voiceovers/subtitles and the German translation. you can find the full story HERE (we might delete it at some point, but there's no hurry)

Specifically, we looked at Konoko's final tirade (originally only at the part I put in bold):

When I blew the processors I bought us some time, but at a horrible cost. The dead and the dying now line the streets but it is impossible to deny the problem any longer. My father's work may prove to be the salvation of the afflicted after all. Mankind as we knew it is doomed: the Chrysalis will change us all. Let's hope it's for the better.

I wasn't too interested in the "deviation" pointed out by paradox (the passive construction "Die Sprengung der Prozessoren hat uns ein bisschen Zeit gebracht"), and eventually asked him what he thought about the actual meaning of the second sentence:

The dead and the dying now line the streets but it is impossible to deny the problem any longer.

The discussion went as follows:

geyser wrote:

I'm curious what you think about the "but"/"doch" (what is she "but"ting?), and about the Problem (what problem could she mean?).

paradox wrote:

Key word &#8220;problem&#8221;... I think it refer to catastrophe&#8217;s cause. Dead people = problem; toxic air = cause. After that everyone will ask the cause&#8217;s cause... toxic air <= exploded AACs <= Syndicate&#8217;s and Konoko&#8217;s actions <= and in the end (if the mad mob wants to know &#8211; hey, right now this made it impossible...) they ask about WCG non-doing of preventing more toxins. Here goes some manual sentence:

TECH NOTE 1
The World Coalition Government realizes the extent of the ecological damage and has the ability to reverse a lot of it but has decided not to. It is in their best interest to maintain the centralization of wealth so the large population centers are preserved while "third world" regions are not. As a bonus the mounting death toll solves some of their overpopulation problems.

Anarchy as well (with or without Muro) -- it&#8217;s not even propaganda, it&#8217;s the truth:
     1. WCG is blamed for &#8220;let air becoming toxic&#8221;.
     2. Syndicate is blamed for &#8220;made increasing this shit&#8221;.
Result: chaos. The truth helps nobody, how ironic.
In facing of that threat there are two possibilities:
     1. Syndicate could make an abstract PR show, blaming Konoko for everything. &#8220;She was ordered (by WCG!) to conserve status quo by blowing new poison into air.&#8221; (Remember Tech Hint 1 ... it&#8217;s non-sense but perhaps effective in front of a mad mob.)
     2. Or they come to an agreement; you call it META already, right?
Maybe they will do both: first hunting(*) Konoko and stuff, then get to fusion with WCG.
(*)could be easy reason for getting Oni 2 melees.
More possibilities depend on Daodan interpretation (more &#8220;human-sized&#8221; ... but not now.)
I hope you I was able to filled your curiosity.^^

geyser wrote:

My own (rather ancient) inquisition can be found HERE (end of post).
You didn't address the "but". As for the "problem", the "cause of the cause of the cause" is a bit far-fetched, but indeed nothing else seems to make sense. Or rather...
My current impression is that the WCG is completely ignored by Mai in her final statement.
Her final words are about Hasegawa's "dream" coming true: the Chrysalis becoming the only way to save the world from "the nightmare that killed [Jamie]".
The "problem" seems to be that "mankind as we knew it is doomed". Pollution taken as such, regardless the causes and responsibilities and possible "soft" solutions. "The world [...] is poisonous".
Whether the WCG could/can do something about it is not the point. Mai's and Hasegawa's (and Muro's) "point" is that fighting pollution is a no-way. You have to "adapt to the new world", and that's what everybody's been "denying". (note that it's their POV, not mine)
The "but" then also makes sense. Sure, pollution is killing millions/billions worldwide, but at least it's clear that we're all doomed unless...
In this catastrophic situation, the Chrysalis gets a chance to actually prove its worth: "the salvation of the afflicted". "After all" because without the catastrophe it didn't stand a chance (regulation, scientific approach, unbiased ethics, etc).
So, now that the closing tirade is clear, the question is: in how far is it realistic? How much of Mai's wishful thinking will actually come true?
I'll be moving these considerations somewhere (maybe posting them on Oni Central Forum), obviously.
Maybe onto stripey's "Human society after..." thread? How about posting your stuff first?

As for the Mai=scapegoat thing, obviously if neither the WCG nor the beheaded Syndicate are interested in chaos, they will both blame everything on Mai/Muro/Hasegawa.
In very many ways, Hasegawa is a mad scientist, overreacting to his wife's death, and dedicating his life to a revolution of mankind and society.
Muro was acting in that direction, and at the end of Oni, Mai is no better: she really feels like preaching that "Mankind as we knew it is doomed. The Chrysalis will change us all".
It's really nice how this connects to Sturm & Drang (Loser was the first one who pointed it out).
Blaming everything on the Hasegawas is not only convenient; it's actually fair. So there's no reason for the Syndicate or the WCG to blame anything on each other. Thus nothing stands in the way of fusion.
As for Mai, what would happen if she becomes the public enemy is, in short, a nightmare ^^

paradox wrote:

Quote from ASFO2 page 6:

Mr. Alloc, [...] just kill Muro and listen to the cinematic : "When I blew the Processors...".

Isn't he German too?

who cares what the translators were smoking?

For Oni 2 we should care^^

I don't like the idea of setting a whole sequel in a post- apocalyptic environment

I will work on more background theories..

That she turned a world-wide ultimatum in world-wide desolation. They'll "help her understand" just what her action has made her in the eyes of the public, that she couldn't have harmed the world's population more or helped the Syndicate in a more direct way than by doing what she did.

You mentioned "ultimatum", so Muro didn't wanted an apocalypse. You thought in a "human-sized" way.^^ That would be a crossing point for my own stuff.
She ignored WCG - yes because the first cause is the toxic air (you mentioned here, I did in forum). The Chaining is more out of a neutral one's view and out of her view. She don't care about past (general pollution) and future (desolation), she wanted to rescue the word by killing Muro only -- now your "They'll "help her understand" " from above comes again.
From ASFO2-thread (page 7 again): "I don't want do diabolize the Daodan(*) "

How much of Mai's wishful thinking will actually come true?

Hm, after all that talk in "Strange things about Oni's plotline" thread.. - What is then about Muro's poetry..?

Mai=scapegoat [...] Thus nothing stands in the way of fusion. + As for Mai, what would happen if she becomes the public enemy is, in short, a nightmare ^^

Absolute, in a first view Oni 2 gameplay would become mostly impossible. We need massive constructions .. erm, discussions how to..^^

So far I merely replicated the exchange. I didn't reply to paradox yet. Doing so now.

Alloc is German too, yeah. Apparently Germans are too eager to kick Muro's ass and don't pay attention to the plotwise meaning of the previous objective smile
I still don't care what exactly the translators were smoking or drinking smile  All we want is to account for discrepancies.
The German "deviations" so far are minor IMO: the Italian thing was much worse.
But now that you mention Alloc's surprise, I agree that the passive construction in the German outro should be accounted for. Thanks smile

As for the "nightmare": I was more or less referring to CAVE (Oni 2's intro and training course as suggested by myself) (just an idea, of course) smile
The "nightmare" itself comes right before you wake up in the "Cave". It's a kaleidoscope-like flashback to what happened in the immediate aftermath. I sketched that thing HERE. (in the very same post where I rant on Mr. Alloc) (also just an idea, of course)
(the most tricky/polemical/non-pluralistic thing about Cave And The Nightmare Before is that Mai would "have to be" amnesiac)

"What about Muro's poetry?" Yeah, what about it? You mean he thought in "human-sized" categories and wasn't the fanatic/maniac/messiah we said he was?
Maybe. Pluralism, after all. Who knows what he "actually thought"? Even the facts are distorted when (mis)interpreted by different characters, so...
My most "human-sized" theory ever is what I labeled SOMETHING COMPLETELY (100%) DIFFERENT.
(just an idea, and most probably just an elaborate misconception) (heh)

There. paradox: if you want different typesetting for your stuff (italics etc), just drop me a PM.
I didn't link to META because paradox originally didn't.
As for the other entities (WCG and Syndicate, but also TCTF, BGI, and even Oni), HERE is where it's at.

Last edited by geyser (12/2/07 18:14)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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