Oni Central Forum

A forum for the Oni community

You are not logged in.

#51 14/1/08 21:10

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Unless the Daodan says: "Hmmm. Evil. Horns." or "Hmm. Good. Fluffy wings."

lol   There might actually be a fluffy "angel" in the Edition wink

Actually, I always thought horns were just an expression of a symbiote's instability.
"Stable" means the Daodan preserves the original shape/behaviour/etc of the host.
"Unstable" means it reinforces or replaces more than needed, hence hypertrophy smile
I also thought that Mai would have looked just as ugly as the two Imagoes we know.
http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/screenshots/MutKon/
Imago is a "failure of a success", because you willingly leave human nature behind.
So it's only fair that you become "some kind of monster", forget how to speak, etc.

"It does tie into Sturmdamerung -- Muro seems to have planned on mass distribution of the Daodan."
No, that's more like Mai's plan at the end. Muro wanted to set up a Noah's Ark of sorts, for a happy few.

"Maybe Barabas was an attempt at trying to fit people with a universally acceptable chrysalis?"
I see him more as a "harnessed Imago". His armor is a straitjacket for a pending Barzilla smile
BTW, while we're at it, feel free to read/write this: http://wiki.oni2.net/Barabas

Last edited by geyser (14/1/08 21:12)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#52 15/1/08 1:58

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

Read that, otherwise I'd never have seen Barabas as a guinea pig of some kind.

Edition? Perhaps, indeed, I should have gotten the mac version.

And when does he state he wants an Ark scenario? I'll admit Mai may jump to conclusions with the inner monologue.
He says hes accomplished what Hasegawa dreamed (why the past tense?) of doing. Sounds like immunizing humanity against the toxic world. Though their is enough wiggle room.

The harnessed Imago makes sense, though I would imagine it wouldn't be very cost effective for mass production. Certain parts would have to be cybernetically replaced or shut off -- like a high-tech jar for Barabas' brain. That would, I imagine, even kill Barabas.
With my hypothesis, however, he can still be Imago -- but he is nowhere near the potential of fully tuned Daodans like Mai or Muro.

If Barabas is carrying around what is, in a way, a piece of Muro in him ... that is interesting. It may explain a part of his loyalty -- a literal biological connection. And given the Daodan's apparent empathic capacity for fellow Doadans (if we are to believe the Mukade chase monologues), you know that'll open up a strange can o' worms.

Offline

#53 15/1/08 6:15

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"Read that, otherwise I'd never have seen Barabas as a guinea pig of some kind."
Well, as you say, he's not just Muro's pet, but also a son for Muro, maybe literally.

"Edition? Perhaps, indeed, I should have gotten the mac version." They're the same.
I haven't added the Angel yet, I only said I might, in time for the actual Anniversary.

"He says hes accomplished what Hasegawa dreamed (why the past tense?) of doing."
I'm tempted to say "because Mukade is dead" wink  Anyway, Hasegawa is "gone" now.
Either killed or exiled or comatose or somehow unavailable. We don't have to know.

"Sounds like immunizing humanity against the toxic world. Though there is enough wiggle room."
Hasegawa presented hyperevolution as the salvation of mankind, but just what is evolution, again?
It's the survival of the fittest. Upgrading every last lamer out there would be 100% anti-evolutionary.
You know how mankind killed biological evolution in the first place: "equal chances" and all that jazz.
Hyperevolution takes mankind to a new level, and Muro is OK with leaving most people behind. Ark.
"This is the future. Join me or die like all the others..." he says, as if announcing an impending Flood.

It's also interesting how the Strikers relate to this. Maybe most of them are nihilistic, suicidal maniacs?
The extreme case is of course that of the bombers ("We're all doomed!"), but what about the others?
I think the reason why they kill people gratuitously is, again, because "we're all doomed" to die soon.
The Strikers firmly believe that Daodan is the way to go, but they know only few of them will make it.
So they serve the plan as best they can, and the apparent sadism is then just a foretaste of the Flood.

"Certain parts would have to be cybernetically replaced or shut off -- like a high-tech jar for Barabas' brain." That's quite feasible.
In Oni's world, brain surgery is apparently quite common (neuro-links, Deadly Brains, Flatline Zombies), and mostly reliable, too.
The cybernetic implants would require minor maintenance and monitoring per se, at least as compared to monitoring a Chrysalis.
Also, if the implants are guaranteed to keep the transformation incomplete, this stabilizes the host and saves on monitoring, too.

"With my hypothesis, however, he can still be Imago -- but he is nowhere near the potential of fully tuned Daodans like Mai or Muro."
I don't like the idea of generic Imagoes or non-individual Chrysalises. They would trivialize the concept, almost irredeemably. IMO.
But where we do agree is that Barabas is a "release candidate" that has remained mostly human even after his "transformation".
We can't be certain as for what limits Barabas's potential. So far I think the cybernetic theory is "better" than the "generic" one.

"If Barabas is carrying around what is, in a way, a piece of Muro in him ... that is interesting."
Rather than an extension of the Hasegawa bloodline, maybe think of something more exotic.
Like Muro's brain engrams being impressed on Barabas's Daodan biomass (not on the brain).
Then it's a bit as if Barabas's body had an identity of its own, largely influenced by Muro's.
And the 100% human brain would still be that of the individual that Barabas used to be smile
This would indeed allow for some rather non-trivial empathy between Barabas and Muro.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#54 15/1/08 10:06

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

Ignore my previous comments, they're not worth even explaining.

VidBoi7 wrote:

Unless the Daodan says: "Hmmm. Evil. Horns." or "Hmm. Good. Fluffy wings."

I think that's exactly what it does.  You could argue that's not very realistic, but it is anime-like.  Bad guys always transform into a more monstrous form in the end.  It's intriguing to wonder what Konoko's Imago state would look like.  Keep in mind she can be brutal and brash, so I doubt she would be all-out angelic in apperance.

Muro seems to have planned on mass distribution of the Daodan. However, doing that on a massive scale when you have to custom grow a symbiote for each person might be a bit cumbersome.  Maybe Barabas was an attempt at trying to fit people with a universally acceptable chrysalis?

I like that idea.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what Bungie was thinking too, even though admittedly they didn't fill in his background at all.  He seems to exist in a half-successful Imago state.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#55 15/1/08 11:13

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

@ anime clichés: "It's intriguing to wonder what Konoko's Imago state would look like."
Someone doesn't believe in links, eh? http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/screenshots/MutKon/

@ Barabas: "He seems to exist in a half-successful Imago state."
Yup, and that's enough out of him. It's not like there is a Tru7h wink

Last edited by geyser (15/1/08 11:14)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#56 15/1/08 11:22

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

>>G

I wouldn't so much say 'generic' chrysali. More accurately, its Muro's (or somebody elses DNA) symbiote, trying to interface as best it can with a body it isn't meant to be in.
If anything, it reaffirms that the true power of the Daodan cannot be manufactured. Sure, you can get a lot of Barabas', but any fully tuned Daodan user could wipe the floor with him. To achieve the maximum benefit from it, one needs to embrace it as fully as possible.

Then again, if an Ark scenario was Muro's intent, I doubt he'd need to implant people with a mass produced Daodan. He could, in that case, take time enough to sample DNA and engineer fresh chrysali.

>>I

It would keep with the anime aesthetic. Reminds me of some alignment specific options in NWN...
Though the way she 'sees' her chrysalis might not be so positive. I wonder if thats where Bungie got the name...

Offline

#57 15/1/08 11:59

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

geyser wrote:

@ anime clichés: "It's intriguing to wonder what Konoko's Imago state would look like."
Someone doesn't believe in links, eh? http://geyser.oni2.net/pics/screenshots/MutKon/

Uhhh... where did you find that model???  This is another thing that shows my newness to the Oni community, because I have no idea of where that came from.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#58 15/1/08 12:07

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"This is another thing that shows my newness to the Oni community, because I have no idea of where that came from."
Heh, initially it was another member fooling around with body sets, and then I actually sat down and did the textures smile
The meshes for the shoulders and the hands are Mutant Muro's, and the head texture is merged from the obvious two.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#59 15/1/08 12:25

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

That's it, I'm inspired now to design Imago Konoko so you can see my conception of what she might look like.  You'll see some rough sketches in a few days.

Edit: Did a conceptual sketch last night that I really like.  Will polish and upload next week.

Last edited by Iritscen (16/1/08 9:28)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#60 17/1/08 0:51

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 1/9/07

Re: Muro speculation

i would imagine that how the imago looks isn't in how bad or good a person is, but in the want of power and stuff. Because Muro wants power and strength, so his Imago is bloated and mishappen, but exceptionally powerful.
Barabas - as you guys say - isn't fully "Imago-ed" so it is hard to visulise his, probably similar to Muro's but perhaps not as disfigured (that is dependent on the pre-existing condition of his body though - maybe a man/machine interface before being "Daoden-ed")
Mai is seemingly reluctant to except her fate as not being human and doesn't really lust for power, so perhaps her Imago form would be the most human looking of all, even if her Daoden strength has got more potential then Muro's.

So really, is Muro's body in the last level reflecting his mind, ready to sacrifice his humanity for strength?

just a thought...

Offline

#61 17/1/08 1:32

Your_Mom
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 31/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Indeed. If you're willing to believe what Kerr says, then that would be a very logical explanation - that Muro was willing to forsake humanity for power.


droid803sig.jpg

Offline

#62 17/1/08 9:03

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

LastmanSAC wrote:

Mai is seemingly reluctant to except her fate as not being human and doesn't really lust for power, so perhaps her Imago form would be the most human looking of all, even if her Daoden strength has got more potential then Muro's.

Yes, that's exactly where I'm going with my Imago design for her.  It's going to be a little freaky, but not in the way that Mutant Muro is freaky.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#63 17/1/08 14:41

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

Imago Konoko is in Oni already. Press F1, then type chenille, behemoth, and moonshadow. ^_^


Work in progress...

Offline

#64 17/1/08 18:24

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Muro speculation


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

Offline

#65 19/1/08 13:41

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Gumby wrote:

Not plotwise, but as a bonus F8 character, maybe.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#66 22/1/08 12:55

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

Just an update: I did a rough conceptual of her face in Imago state.

http://iritscen.oni2.net/forum/2008/KonokoImago.png

It's not done, obviously, but to come up with it, I factored in a few things:

- Her original face (duh)
- The nature of the transformation in Barabus and Imago Muro, i.e., bluish purple veins emanating from third eye location, horns, and skin color change
- The possibility that Konoko's less violent personality leads to less of an overall change, as opposed to Muro's monstrous form
- What the Chrysalis would do to Konoko to adapt her to the life she's led
- General transformations in anime, such as the ones coming from Orochimaru's curse mark (2nd stage) in Naruto

My thoughts on the last item: Konoko needs darker skin for sneaking through the shadows, and her hair has dulled and reddened as well.  Also, her overall approach is more stealthy than brutish (somewhat depending on how you play, of course), but it got me thinking of big cats, so I factored that into her appearance as well.  This form gives her superior vision and other senses.  The stripes on the lips are a reference to serpents and gives her appearance a sense of imminent violence.  Her hair stands up more, but generally is the same in shape; however, the bangs have been kinked up to look more dangerous, and the Daodan veins (not done) are running through her hair, changing the color in streaks up towards the two peaks.  I tried to balance savagery and a little of Konoko's basic attractiveness.  Her body size is unchanged, and her strength is obviously greater, but her legs are particularly strong, and she runs super-fast and low to the ground.  Her nails are elongated -- not unlike Muro's -- and can tear through flesh easily.

That's my take anyway. :-)  I will finish this up at some point.

Last edited by Iritscen (23/7/17 9:57)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#67 22/1/08 14:44

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Maybe this deserves a new topic. Looks like a promising terrain for speculation, concept art, gameplay considerations etc.

"My thoughts on the last item:" Sounds/looks a whole lot like Mystique from X-Men. Then again, Mai is not unlike Wolverine.

"bluish purple veins emanating from third eye location" I like how you gave them a butterfly shape (perhaps unintendedly).

You didn't mention the eyes too much. I was thinking "pupilless" eyes rather than catlike, vertical pupils (which are cliché).
I picture her eyes as mostly human, but either with a very tiny pupil or, conversely, a huge one, with "dynamic glaucoma".

Last edited by geyser (22/1/08 14:51)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#68 22/1/08 15:18

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

I wasn't too sure about what I did with her eyes -- obviously I was going for a catlike thing (I actually color-referenced photos of cats' eyes).  But cat's eyes are actually round-irised and only the pupils are slitlike, so I may very well change that.  The additional danger, as far as character design goes, is that as a general rule narrowed irises/pupils make a character less human-looking.  I didn't want to go overboard in that respect, like, "OMG, she's a monster!!1!".

I didn't think of the veins as butterfly-like, although that's interesting.  I was actually thinking of gnarled fingers when I drew them.  There were originally five "fingers", but I added the inside ones last-minute -- before that, they actually looked more butterfly-like, in fact, but it looked too artificial, and I wanted something organic.

I have to fix up the veins so they actually conform to her face, and I may alter the eyelashes; I got a cool idea after I was done for the night.

Also, if you really want to find this face scary, imagine her smiling with her eyes narrowed and her head lowered, in the shadows.  This neutral expression was easiest from a design perspective but I would like to draw her in a more "moody" style at some point.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB