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#26 23/6/10 12:44

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Paff wrote:
Mukade wrote:

Maybe... in singleplayer, how you play the game is your business, but in MP we need to make sure the playing level is even

Even in what sense?

well no spamming, oni to me is more emphasis on fighting than guns, so spamming gets annoying when it comes to fighting. From hadoukens(Ryu) to Eddy Gordo's(Tekken) capoeria attacks. Whether it be Fox's (Brawl) karate kicks to Dudley's(SF 3rd strike) cross counter.


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#27 23/6/10 22:04

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Jon God wrote:

Out of complete curiosity, and honesty, how often/how many games have you played online?

I assume you mean "playing online with lots of strangers"? In which case, I've played lots and lots and lots of DotA on Battle.net, and not much else. I've also played quite a lot of Smash with strangers in person, which is similar in terms of playing with people who can use exploits and such.

love_Oni wrote:

Sorry if I interrupt you, I just think that: How about listing the bugs/issues that you thought of, making a poll, then asking people which bugs they want to be fixed, which bugs they don't want to? Maybe that will make the discussion more clear, and we can know what everybody is thinking?

I think this is a good idea. I'll start a bug-list topic.

Mukade wrote:

Even as in all players have an equal fighting chance, no one can get the upper hand by exploiting bugs that others aren't aware of or can't execute themselves

Alright. Do you think it should be specific only to bugs, or should it also extend to things like the special moves that are difficult to perform, and to other non-bug techniques that not everyone knows about?

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#28 23/6/10 22:56

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

At that point there isn't anything we can do... the player needs to master those moves themselves.

As for bugs, to be honest, this topic is really blown out of proportion... there are only 2 bugs I can think of that would affect the balance of multiplayer combat, cooldown cancel, and backbreaker glitch. Other than that, there are maybe a few animation glitches and other trivial glitches that go with the territory of a rushed game, but nothing that would give anyone an advantage


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#29 24/6/10 17:41

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Paff wrote:
Jon God wrote:

Out of complete curiosity, and honesty, how often/how many games have you played online?

I assume you mean "playing online with lots of strangers"? In which case, I've played lots and lots and lots of DotA on Battle.net, and not much else. I've also played quite a lot of Smash with strangers in person, which is similar in terms of playing with people who can use exploits and such.

love_Oni wrote:

Sorry if I interrupt you, I just think that: How about listing the bugs/issues that you thought of, making a poll, then asking people which bugs they want to be fixed, which bugs they don't want to? Maybe that will make the discussion more clear, and we can know what everybody is thinking?

I think this is a good idea. I'll start a bug-list topic.

Mukade wrote:

Even as in all players have an equal fighting chance, no one can get the upper hand by exploiting bugs that others aren't aware of or can't execute themselves

Alright. Do you think it should be specific only to bugs, or should it also extend to things like the special moves that are difficult to perform, and to other non-bug techniques that not everyone knows about?

So you've not played many FPS, or TPSs online? (Not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking)


Also, the journal details all the moves Konoko can use, so the special moves for _her_ are talked about, I don't know all the special moves of the other people nearly at all. So, I propose we have movesets for the chosen character shown during loading screens, as well as via the in game journal, if possible.


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#30 24/6/10 20:07

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Mukade wrote:

At that point there isn't anything we can do... the player needs to master those moves themselves.

If some people can't perform the special moves, and other people can, would you not consider that "uneven"? If you wouldn't, what is the difference between that situation and one where some people can/cannot perform the exploits?

Mukade wrote:

As for bugs, to be honest, this topic is really blown out of proportion... there are only 2 bugs I can think of that would affect the balance of multiplayer combat, cooldown cancel, and backbreaker glitch. Other than that, there are maybe a few animation glitches and other trivial glitches that go with the territory of a rushed game, but nothing that would give anyone an advantage

Getting this decision right or wrong isn't going to mean the end of the world or anything, but I think it's good to discuss everyone's reasoning on it so that we can make better decisions in general. That'll be particularly important given how precarious a situation Oni is in, and how much power we have to change it.

Jon God wrote:

So you've not played many FPS, or TPSs online? (Not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking)

Indeed. I don't think I've ever played a shooter online.

Jon God wrote:

Also, the journal details all the moves Konoko can use, so the special moves for _her_ are talked about, I don't know all the special moves of the other people nearly at all. So, I propose we have movesets for the chosen character shown during loading screens, as well as via the in game journal, if possible.

I think that's a very good idea.

Last edited by Paff (24/6/10 20:09)

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#31 25/6/10 15:03

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Paff wrote:
Mukade wrote:

At that point there isn't anything we can do... the player needs to master those moves themselves.

If some people can't perform the special moves, and other people can, would you not consider that "uneven"? If you wouldn't, what is the difference between that situation and one where some people can/cannot perform the exploits?

Mukade wrote:

As for bugs, to be honest, this topic is really blown out of proportion... there are only 2 bugs I can think of that would affect the balance of multiplayer combat, cooldown cancel, and backbreaker glitch. Other than that, there are maybe a few animation glitches and other trivial glitches that go with the territory of a rushed game, but nothing that would give anyone an advantage

Getting this decision right or wrong isn't going to mean the end of the world or anything, but I think it's good to discuss everyone's reasoning on it so that we can make better decisions in general. That'll be particularly important given how precarious a situation Oni is in, and how much power we have to change it.

Jon God wrote:

So you've not played many FPS, or TPSs online? (Not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking)

Indeed. I don't think I've ever played a shooter online.

Jon God wrote:

Also, the journal details all the moves Konoko can use, so the special moves for _her_ are talked about, I don't know all the special moves of the other people nearly at all. So, I propose we have movesets for the chosen character shown during loading screens, as well as via the in game journal, if possible.

I think that's a very good idea.


The kind of people shooters attract is usually much different then other online competitive game crowds. tongue

I think, if we leave this in, I figure 40% - 60% would find an abuse it, and ruin it for he rest of the players, again, something that turns new players off, or heck, even normal players. I know personally, if there is a glitch to abuse, I will avoid it, and just try to be good enough to beat someone using it, but I never feel it's fair.


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#32 25/6/10 19:58

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Jon God wrote:

The kind of people shooters attract is usually much different then other online competitive game crowds. tongue

I think, if we leave this in, I figure 40% - 60% would find an abuse it, and ruin it for he rest of the players, again, something that turns new players off, or heck, even normal players. I know personally, if there is a glitch to abuse, I will avoid it, and just try to be good enough to beat someone using it, but I never feel it's fair.

Ah. I imagine there'll be a lot of fighting game players interested as well, but they'll also be willing to exploit bugs.

In cases where your opponent is willing to use an exploit and you aren't, it definitely is unfair in that regard. You can still win of course, by playing better than them in other ways, but if they're just as good as you in every other way, they'll tend to win.

Personally, I'm 100% fine with both me and my opponent using the sorts of exploits listed as "good" or "neutral" in the OP, and don't like when "bad" exploits are used. (And in the case of "good" bugs, I actually prefer it when everybody's using them.)

So, I definitely think we should fix the "bad" bugs, because players will exploit them and ruin things for people. But I don't think the other types of bugs will ruin it for people. (Although if lots of players don't want any bugs to be used whatsoever, then of course they'll be a bit hosed, and if a large percentage of potential new Oni players fall into that group, it'll hurt Oni's growth, and so on.)

Last edited by Paff (25/6/10 20:04)

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#33 26/6/10 2:28

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Paff wrote:
Jon God wrote:

The kind of people shooters attract is usually much different then other online competitive game crowds. tongue

I think, if we leave this in, I figure 40% - 60% would find an abuse it, and ruin it for he rest of the players, again, something that turns new players off, or heck, even normal players. I know personally, if there is a glitch to abuse, I will avoid it, and just try to be good enough to beat someone using it, but I never feel it's fair.

Ah. I imagine there'll be a lot of fighting game players interested as well, but they'll also be willing to exploit bugs.

In cases where your opponent is willing to use an exploit and you aren't, it definitely is unfair in that regard. You can still win of course, by playing better than them in other ways, but if they're just as good as you in every other way, they'll tend to win.

Personally, I'm 100% fine with both me and my opponent using the sorts of exploits listed as "good" or "neutral" in the OP, and don't like when "bad" exploits are used. (And in the case of "good" bugs, I actually prefer it when everybody's using them.)

So, I definitely think we should fix the "bad" bugs, because players will exploit them and ruin things for people. But I don't think the other types of bugs will ruin it for people. (Although if lots of players don't want any bugs to be used whatsoever, then of course they'll be a bit hosed, and if a large percentage of potential new Oni players fall into that group, it'll hurt Oni's growth, and so on.)

I would say Cooldown exploit and backbreaker warp are 'bad' glitches.


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#34 26/6/10 11:27

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Agreed


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#35 27/6/10 19:45

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

What do you guys find bad about them? (To me, the teleport throws seem pretty neutral, and cooldown cancelling seems good.)

Also, Mukade: If some people can't perform the special moves, and other people can, would you not consider that "uneven"? If you wouldn't, what is the difference between that situation and one where some people can/cannot perform the exploits?

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#36 27/6/10 19:52

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

The thing that's "bad" about them is that they affect gameplay and the balance I assume that the developpers wanted to have... if they had wanted you to have no gun cooldown, would they not have done it that way? I base my point on the fact that, again, I want to play how the developpers wanted it to be played because they have a reason for adding that cooldown.

They're "bad" because they affect the gameplay in a noticeable way.

And i'll concede your point there Paff, it's no different than if we can preform a special combo someone else can't, but picture this:

You're in combat with an opponent, you manage to dodge behind them duing one of their combos, leacing what should be an open hit, when suddenly that opening becomes your demise...

It's not so much the fact that you can't preform it as others can, it's the fact that having it done negatively affects combat.


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#37 27/6/10 20:24

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Yeah, we definitely have different taste/values on developer intent, and I guess that's the only reason we disagree on which bugs are bad or not. And again, I agree that if having the bugs in will turn away a significant amount of players, it's probably worth fixing them if possible. It'd be ideal if everyone was okay with using bugs and we could leave the good ones in, though. tongue

And yeah, the teleport backbreakers have the potential to be frustrating, but they also have the potential to be extremely exciting.

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#38 27/6/10 20:49

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Yeah, and don't think that I'm closed minded, I do see your side of the arguement, and I tend to agree with you on a certain level, I just don't think it's for the best


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#39 27/6/10 22:17

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Paff wrote:

What do you guys find bad about them? (To me, the teleport throws seem pretty neutral, and cooldown cancelling seems good.)

Also, Mukade: If some people can't perform the special moves, and other people can, would you not consider that "uneven"? If you wouldn't, what is the difference between that situation and one where some people can/cannot perform the exploits?

What I find bad: Doesn't make sense, annoying, not what was originally intended, and is not taught throughout the solo campaign.

Also, I explained this above: You are not told these, you do not get good at it over the course of the game, unless you have someone else tell you.

Lastly. I and many other people do not like learning bugs to play a game online. Bungie has fixed a lot of bugs in Halo's multiplayer, and look at the amount of people that play it to this day.

What about all the people that played through Oni for years not using any glitches? If they went online for the first time, they would have their asses handed to them, but NOT for a lack of skill. Sounds like a real turn off to me.


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#40 29/6/10 19:39

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Yeah, I guess now my mind has been changed: I'm tentatively in support of removing the bugs and attempting to make up for the lost complexity via adding features such as throw escapes. If Flatline was just being made for me, I'd definitely prefer to leave the bugs in, but in terms of making sure as many people enjoy it as possible, it's probably worth it to remove the bugs.

Now I'm wondering why there's such a seemingly large disparity between the typical tastes of Smash and fighting game players versus other gamers. For my own part, I've never been bothered by non-"bad" bugs in games, but I wonder if other Smashers have come to accept bugs after initially disliking them, and if so, how people typically make that transition.

I suppose it's possible that playing in a competetive atmosphere lends itself to different mindsets. Or perhaps the Smash/fighting game communities came to accept bugs early and people who disliked bugs just never joined them.

Last edited by Paff (29/6/10 19:44)

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#41 30/6/10 5:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Well, keep in mind too that most fans of a certain game have no control over whether it has bugs or not, especially if it's a console or arcade game.  Even if they can patch a bug, most players will still be buying and playing the vanilla version of the game, so they can't really stomp out the bugs.  On the other hand, we are in something of an unofficial position of stewardship for Oni.  Not only can we patch bugs, but the only version of the game application that people play is the one we release.  So we actually have a choice as to whether to accept the presence of bugs or to eliminate them.  It's a special responsibility and it also means that we never have to just accept something the way it is.  I think that's the reason for our different mindset.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#42 30/6/10 10:08

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Well said  smile


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#43 30/6/10 13:14

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Iritscen made the point I failed at getting across before. smile


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#44 30/6/10 23:06

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Heh, sorry to nitpick, but:

Iritscen wrote:

Well, keep in mind too that most fans of a certain game have no control over whether it has bugs or not, especially if it's a console or arcade game.  Even if they can patch a bug, most players will still be buying and playing the vanilla version of the game, so they can't really stomp out the bugs.  ...  Not only can we patch bugs, but the only version of the game application that people play is the one we release.

I'm not so sure about this part. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who start playing vanilla Oni without AE/Flatline. (Personally, I only found OCF after deciding to make a very serious search for an online Oni community.) And again, I think there'll be a number of people who played vanilla Oni in the past who will become re-interested in the game after hearing of Flatline's existence.

But yeah, all/nearly all online play will be done with the "standard" AE build. And probably a larger percentage of people will be happier if that build has as few bugs as possible.

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#45 1/7/10 0:18

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

I expect though, that anyone who wants to play flatline will need latest version of AE to be compatible


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#46 1/7/10 5:13

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

Not only can we patch bugs, but the only version of the game application that people play is the one we release.

I'm not so sure about this part. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who start playing vanilla Oni without AE/Flatline.

Mukade is right, I mainly meant that no one would be playing MP except through us, so we have full control over bugs in MP mode, even if not SP mode.

Beyond that, though, vanilla Oni tends not to work on modern computers without some kind of patch.  So when people come looking for a patch, they get our version of the app.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#47 1/7/10 19:25

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Bug Philosophy (And Competitive Gaming)

Ah yeah, good point.

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