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#1 18/9/08 14:54

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

AE:Level Changes

This is just a thread to discuss changes\additions\whatever to levels.

When we get some concrete ideas, we can transfer over to a wiki page.

So...I need to go play through all the levels again to get some ideas. smile I'll have ideas tonight\tomorrow.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#2 23/9/08 6:28

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: AE:Level Changes

How is it going, Gumby?


The Boy Who Knew Too Much tongue

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#3 21/12/08 7:48

A8D
Member
Registered: 6/12/08

Re: AE:Level Changes

I was thinking about something... would it be possible to add stairs to climb into the lookout towers at the beginning of the last level ? I had noticed a long time ago that there are some items inside, and wondered why since you cannot reach them.

Oh and this not directly related, but why in AE can Konoko jump much higher than normal in the last level ?


Where there's a will for Oni II, there's a way !

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#4 21/12/08 14:47

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

Heh. I am way behind on checking threads. Sorry love_Oni. Was busy at the time.

@A8D: Not until we get pathfinding autogeneration done. No idea when that will happen.
And Konoko jumps like that because geyser thought it would be a good idea. smile


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#5 21/12/08 15:28

A8D
Member
Registered: 6/12/08

Re: AE:Level Changes

Ok. What exactly is pathfinding autogeneration ? Does it have something to do with the AI ?


Where there's a will for Oni II, there's a way !

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#6 21/12/08 15:48

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

A8D wrote:

Oh and this not directly related, but why in AE can Konoko jump much higher than normal in the last level ?

Oh, but it is directly related!  Or did you think it was a coincidence that Konoko's new jump height is exactly enough to take her over the edge of the sniper towers with a jump-flip? wink

The answer in-game is that her Chrysalis is giving her new levels of strength.  Granted, it doesn't really make sense for all the strength to suddenly show up in the last Chapter, which is something we hope to fix in later releases, but this is the same woman who just dropped hundreds of feet from a plane onto tarmac without getting a scratch, so I think the basic idea is a good one.

A8D wrote:

What exactly is pathfinding autogeneration? Does it have something to do with the AI ?

Basically, yes.  Oni uses pre-made grids, attached invisibly to the geometry of a level, that help the AI path-find (saves CPU time in-game).  Current level imports do not have the pathfinding grid auto-generated, which limits pathfinding -- to some degree.  Apparently the AI can still move around on a flat floor, but I don't think they can figure out how to traverse stairs/ramps, step over curbs, etc.  So Gumby was saying that if we added something like that to a level, it wouldn't work right.  Not yet, anyway; importing levels is still a very new thing for us -- the cutting edge of Oni modding, as it were.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#7 22/12/08 16:36

ItemfinderDeluxe
Member
From: Canberra, Australia
Registered: 12/11/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

How about adding door designs to both sides of some doors (ie. the door directly behind you when you start the TCTF Science Prison)? I always found it strange that a door on one side is a giant black wall on the other.


TCTF SWAT: Striker, you're under arrest.
Striker: H4h, y0u c4n'7 570p m3!!!
TCTF SWAT: Damn it, learn to spell!!!
CURRENT PROJECT - 'Nemesis' V1.0 Released

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#8 22/12/08 17:29

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

Basically, yes.  Oni uses pre-made grids, attached invisibly to the geometry of a level, that help the AI path-find (saves CPU time in-game).  Current level imports do not have the pathfinding grid auto-generated, which limits pathfinding -- to some degree.  Apparently the AI can still move around on a flat floor, but I don't think they can figure out how to traverse stairs/ramps, step over curbs, etc.  So Gumby was saying that if we added something like that to a level, it wouldn't work right.  Not yet, anyway; importing levels is still a very new thing for us -- the cutting edge of Oni modding, as it were.

No, that is a different problem. Currently the AI cannot traverse ANY surfaces in new maps unless they are in combat mode.

The problem you are thinking of has to do with quads being flagged as stairs so that characters can walk over them.


And can you get me a screenshot of the science prison door?


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#9 22/12/08 17:29

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

I don't know, if Musashi had to make doors that were painted on both sides they might not still make a profit.

J/k, yeah, that would make sense in many cases (unless we thought that the building's designers wouldn't want the door to show any symbols on the street side).  You'd have to list some examples so I could see which ones you mean.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#10 22/12/08 18:43

MysTryUssX
Member
Registered: 20/12/08

Re: AE:Level Changes

I have an idea,
Maybe there could be a special new menu in witch you can turn options on and of whenever you want, i can understand that he high jumping is cool ( i think so to:D ) but maybe there are people wo want it of, and there are loads of other options people might want to turn on and of whenever they want to. This is alot of modding work but if it works oni could really be a much cooler game then it alreaddy is! There are loads of possibilities here, and im realyl glad the modders on this forum are doing somehting with it big_smile!!!

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#11 22/12/08 19:25

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

Are you in Windows?  If so, be sure to use the Daodan DLL (see wiki), which gives you the Options menu at all times, not just before loading a game.

We do hope to make some of the AE's changes optional -- the jumping in the last level might not be one of them, but it's going to change anyway.  How exactly, I can't say, but I think it will be part of a more logical and gradual approach to having Konoko power up as the game progresses.  And I don't think it would be too hard to make it optional, in addition.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#12 22/12/08 19:57

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

The Daodan DLL has the "kangaroo" cheat which does the same thing, yes.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#13 24/12/08 9:04

MysTryUssX
Member
Registered: 20/12/08

Re: AE:Level Changes

uhm im sorry, but what exatly is the daodan DLL?

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#14 24/12/08 9:48

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

It's a patch for Windows Oni that can fix problems and make magic happen.  It's linked to from the front page of the wiki (see the link to the wiki in the top bar of the forum?).


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#15 26/12/08 10:50

MysTryUssX
Member
Registered: 20/12/08

Re: AE:Level Changes

ah yes i see:) tnx!

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#16 29/1/09 6:48

cr08
Member
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: 27/1/09

Re: AE:Level Changes

Taking everything into consideration, I think the biggest thing would be to take ideas from the levels as they were seen in pre-beta and attempt to 'revert' the levels to that amount of detail and complexity and add onto that in likewise fashion as far as the game engine will allow (I'm not all up on the details right now so don't know if the engine has any poly limits or such with levels).

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#17 29/1/09 9:50

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

As far as I've seen, a lot of the "pre-beta look" had to do with cooler textures, not necessarily more detail.  An exception would be furniture such as the desk in the '99 trailer with stuff on it.  Also, monitors tended to have animated textures.  But yeah, as you must have noticed on the wiki, that's one potential area of work for us.

I am pretty sure the levels are not close to any poly limit in the engine, but I would have to check with our resident expert on the engine to be sure.  It's more likely that they are (or were) close to a limit that had to do with reasonable performance.  Unfortunately, since the engine makes poor use of graphics cards, even now the game can't handle a great deal more polys without slowing down, to the best of my knowledge.  So the work wouldn't involve adding a lot of polys, but rather swapping out textures, mainly.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#18 29/1/09 15:44

cr08
Member
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: 27/1/09

Re: AE:Level Changes

Well, it's fully understood on the need for high resolution textures. But even given the unoptimized nature of the engine, even adding a dozen or two polys in a single level in strategic spots to where the changes are noticable would be nice and shouldn't put too much more load on the system. Or even something simplistic like changing up level layouts a bit to where they aren't as 'painfully simple' to navigate as they are now. Getting most of the levels close to the complexity of the airport level comes to mind.

Granted, doing something that drastic would take tons of work. Between of getting the AI pathfinding updated just for starters and such like that. Essentially, get it to a point that someone will play and go 'Wow. That's new. I like it.'. High resolution texture updates are definitely a good starting block. And if it can be managed to change the level model either by adding little additions here and there, some side rooms, or drastic changes, all without a) adding too much extra overhead to the existing system load and b) adding more work to other areas like re-scripting the AI, changing story-based trigger points, etc..

Again, this is mostly just tossing out ideas. I've been reading over things slowly and am starting to understand some workings of the game and the existing modding tools/procedures, but some I still haven't the slightest clue on so bear with me as I may be totally off-base on how some of this plays out. wink

As far as the pre-beta look, there are definitely some bits where the levels had some drastic changes going on. Some more obvious than others.

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#19 29/1/09 16:13

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: AE:Level Changes

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the engine could handle some more polygons in its levels.  It would be nice to "dress up" the levels a bit more.  One more gameplay-oriented idea we've been floating around is to make the levels less linear by adding alternate paths.

As far as pathfinding goes, we're hoping that will be updated automatically upon importing the level with OniSplit.

As far as the subject of texturing goes, yes, at some point we will need someone (or a few someones) to volunteer to make high-res textures.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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