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#26 28/8/08 12:41

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Some of the things I thought were weird are really more funny than weird:

1. Somebody is trying a new dance move in the background.

2. Someone else is attempting a handstand.

3. Griffin seems to be missing something important... (no one noticed this?!!)

4. And then, yes, you guys noticed the can't-throw bug...

5. ...and the flash bug.  And I did used to see those errors in original Oni, paradox, but I've always wanted to ask what caused that and whether it could be fixed.  Will your flash fixes actually change anything in terms of appearance or behavior or do they just stop the debugging messages from appearing?

Anyway, the reason I posted it in this thread is #4.  love_Oni described the problem already, so I'll just ask, Is this something that needs to be fixed in Loser's TRAMs, or is it an original Oni bug?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#27 28/8/08 14:54

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

@ #1 #2 #4 I'm not sure what's going on there.

@ #3 Griffin seems to miss a piece near the ear. Do you mean that?

@ #5 The flash fixes doesn't change any behavior but release particle on impact how it should be (code-wise*). This stops the debugging messages.

* On the other hand: too many colorful flashes might leave a strange feeling at someone who expect playing an near-apocalypse game. "Oh what cute flashs these Strikers of death always have .. WTF??" Maybe Bungie reduced/disabled them again to match this expectancy. Or this is just my wish-thinking and they hadn't enough time to finish it.

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#28 28/8/08 15:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

#1 and #2 were just me pointing out something silly.  It does look pretty strange, doesn't it?  Esp. #1.

But #3... lol.  I didn't notice the part near the ear.  Doesn't it look like he has no legs?

@#5, now I'm curious to see how it looks with the flashes, I will definitely try out your fixes.

Last edited by Iritscen (28/8/08 15:10)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#29 28/8/08 16:12

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

@ #3 Well then, it's like one of those optical illusion where people look at one shape and there minds interpret it differently.
   http://www.psdtuts.de/tutorials/tunnel% … fertig.jpg
   Is it a pyramid or a tunnel ?
You see a leg-less griffin stuck in the ground and I see him just sitting.

@ #5 Sarcasm. True core but exaggerated/taunting. I mean .. come on, who of us fear strikers?
Just imagine OTA with flash fixes plus OniRulz' mods...

Last edited by paradox-01 (28/8/08 16:22)

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#30 28/8/08 16:31

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

It's definitely a tunnel smile

I'm afraid that we got off-topic (totally my fault), so I'll just reiterate this question of mine that was the reason for posting the pic in the first place:

Is Griffin being unable to throw an enemy in that screenshot a new bug or a classic Oni bug?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#31 28/8/08 17:11

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

love_Oni wrote:

I think the unable-to-throw bug is caused by some techniques in the characters' Melee profiles. For example: Striker's throws and Muro's front-throw are easy to be perform but if you shapeshift them into Konoko class, then that bug can be appear many times because Konoko's front-punch-throw and back-punch-throw are harder to be perform than theirs. That bug also can be appear if the value of min and max 'distance inst' in the technique command were set a bit high. (I'm not sure)

The second bug: Did you use ONIrules's particle TRAMs hack? That bug usually appear after I used his TRAMs.

This.

The AI is supposed to be throwing, but is out of range. Loser decreased some of the throw ranges, so that would appear to be the problem.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#32 28/8/08 17:21

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Ahh, see, that was the missing piece for me, Gumby, thank you.  I forgot Loser decreased the throw ranges.  Now that I think about it, I seem to recall Loser saying he wanted to make some throws less "magical" because he felt they reached too far... so wait, why is that causing an error?  Doesn't the AI know it can't reach as far as it used to?  Is some piece of information not updated in the AI?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#33 28/8/08 17:41

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Hmm. You would expect it to be in the MELE. I guess not.  I'm not an expert on that stuff. I guess it is specified in the TRAM, and the AI gets the info from there. I don't know how the engine selects when to use a technique (group of moves).

The other possible option is that the throw target is moving, making it impossible to throw. smile


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#34 28/8/08 18:30

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Yeah, I never used to play with the debugging messages on, so I also don't know if this message used to show up in classic Oni for the reason you give.  If it did, then decreasing the throw range would increase the frequency of the message because the random movements during a melee would be more likely to take character B out of character A's throwing range.  I suppose this isn't really a problem if that's all that's happening.  I was concerned that the throw should have been working and wasn't because something was broken.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#35 29/8/08 5:55

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

@ #4
Yes, I have decreased throw range. But this is NOT bug. At least not mine.

AI2 does not call throw the way player do (close kick/punch forward). AI2s call DIRECTLY for throw if they are in range. But if enemy manages to escape split-second before AI2 calls throw, then AI2 cannot throw because enemy is outside throw distance but call for throw was already done. So it does one basic punch instead (comb_p) and writes that message. Yes, with my mod this message is more often. That is caused by fact that lower range=higher chance to get out of range ^_^.

                                                                                                   Loser
P.S: I think that more often seen debug message is better than unfair (15;20 etc) throw ranges.

Last edited by Loser (29/8/08 5:56)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#36 29/8/08 9:03

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Yeah, I agree, Loser.

That is caused by fact that lower range=higher chance to get out of range

Which is what I just said, but I took a lot longer to say it smile


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#37 17/9/08 17:12

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Loser, did you alter the Striker AI at some point, with regards to the frequency of the forward slide move (which for them is a tackle)?  Because the Strikers are really spamming it now, and I can't remember ever seeing it back in vanilla Oni, but if it was there, it was rarely used.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#38 18/9/08 2:05

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Well, long time ago, in era of HEXeditors (OUP project was starting, we only dreamt about Onisplit etc...), it was my first attempt to modify MELE. They are quite preditable, bugged, ranges for attacks are only guessed and overall it is a bit naive, but as a first try it was OK. And since it was first try, people here on forum thought it is awesome (and I thought as well until I made BrutalKonoko ^_^). So it got into first release of AE.

                                                                                          Loser

P.S.: As for new MELE/CMBT/ONCC profiles: Well, since now I have finished TRAM modifications (I know, there are still some mods to do, but attacks/throws were crucial) I will start this AI2 modding. Well, I want to start at least ^_-. Truth is that September 22nd my winter semester starts and I don't know what will happen during my first time at the university. Most importantly, I don't know if I will get to Oni. Time will show...

Last edited by Loser (18/9/08 2:13)


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#39 18/9/08 2:17

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Loser - because you ignored my PM.

Currently the AI ignores deadly particles while in fight mode. Is there any way to make them more fearful?


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#40 18/9/08 6:05

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

I didn't ignore it, I was trying to find a way. Sadly, there is none as far as I know. BTW, did you read my article on WIKI about AI2 and dangerous particles (that you are saying so surely I ignored you)?

This is only my knowledge, perhaps it is wrong? So far, it looks to me like this:

AI2 system creates "duels", where one character (A) can have definite mode with only one enemy (B). Others (C,D,etc) ARE known by A if A saw (or see) them, but A is in "strong mode" with them. Read WIKI, it is there (info about pursuit modes near the end of page) and I linked it into article about AI2 and dangerous particles.

And (again in article on WIKI) AI2 can dodge only if it has definite mode with owner of particle. So if there is alone some character (A) and bomber (B) then everything should work OK. A kills B, then runs away because A is still in definite mode with B until B gets deleted or until A's hostilethreat definite timer (in ONCC, again I linked it into article about AI2 and dangerous particles on WIKI) runs out. So it looks OK.

But when there are more enemies, chance is that if B gets killed but some enemy is too close (or attack) A, then A gets into definite mode with new enemy. And if A is NOT in definite mode with B, then it ignores B's dangerous particles. That is all, I have really no idea how to work around this limitation. Fix A on B forcefully and A gets killed by other enemies. Fix all of them forcefully and it looks silly.

To be correct, not only enemies but also allies are registered by AI2. Those are taken as friendlythreat. That is why allies of Bomber can notice him and run away. the moment dangerous zone appears (and if no enemy is nearby), allies of Bomber get friendly alerted, so they turn on dead Bomber with central vision field (see ONCC), turning on definite mode with him. Definite mode => dangerous particles work => allies run away. But if enemies are nearby or attack, then allies of Bomber will fight with them, ignoring Bomber and his dangerous particles.

And something to conclude: One AI2 can be in definite mode with only ONE enemy, but MORE AI2s can be in definite mode with ONE enemy.
                                                                       Loser

Last edited by Loser (18/9/08 6:17)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#41 18/9/08 12:04

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Thanks ^_^


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#42 22/9/08 21:44

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

http://iritscen.oni2.net/forum/2009/UnfairJumpKick.mov

Disclaimer: This movie was taken with the latest throw TRAMs installed, but not the attack TRAMs; also, the TRAMs were not installed in a clean Oni install; I haven't gotten to do that yet.  But you would know by seeing this, Loser, if this is how the jump-kick is currently supposed to work.  Pause the movie and see how I was right in the middle of my jump-kick when Evil Konoko laid the hurt on me.  That's not fair, is it?  My apologies is this has in fact been changed.

Last edited by Iritscen (22/7/17 16:04)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#43 26/9/08 8:57

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Just a small question: Some characters don't have the impact particle, such as the female cop. For example, because the female cop doesn't have the 'konflash1' particle, but the 'KONCOMkick_heavy' TRAM uses that, so when she performs the Devil Spinning Kick, the system will say that the particle 'konflash1' can't be found. I want to add the 'konflash1' particle to her, so what should I do?


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#44 26/9/08 10:13

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Extract your wanted ONCC as XML file and search for ONIA part. Now you can add:

<ONIAImpact>
    <Name>konflash1</Name>
    <Type>Kon_Super_Punch</Type>
    <Modifier>Heavy</Modifier>
</ONIAImpact>
<ONIAImpact>
    <Name>konflash2</Name>
    <Type>Kon_Super_Kick</Type>
    <Modifier>Heavy</Modifier>
</ONIAImpact>

Some more particle possibilities. A few might link into nothing (Bar, Gri, Tcl, Thu not checked).
Bar_Super_Kick
Com_Super_Kick
Eli_Super_Kick
Gri_Super_Kick
Kon_Super_Kick
Mur_Super_Kick
Nin_Super_Kick
Red_Super_Kick
Str_Super_Kick
Swt_Super_Kick
Tan_Super_Kick
Tcl_Super_Kick
Thu_Super_Kick

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#45 26/9/08 10:26

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Sound likes interesting big_smile. I'll try that!

To Iritscen (if he can read these lines): I remember you discussed with Loser about the TRAM, asked him that why the Striker's special-punch move can damage many people around, but I don't remember where. I just want to know how Loser could make the Striker's special-punch move can damage 2 times on one person. (Thank you!)


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#46 26/9/08 12:14

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Hi there guys,
Studies began, will be hard as *XYZ*, but will be DEFINITELY very rewarding, maybe even for Oni modding. Now I have found a bit spare time, so....

Iritscen: Well, here you see AI2 power in action. That throw WAS fair. Throw specifications (shortcuts) for Konoko's leg throw say that she can grab enemies who are running. Nothing aganist that, eh? And KONOKOrun_kick has state from "everything" to "running left down".

So what you can see is precisely used running throw. You do it as well, trust me. Aganist strikers, only you usually don't notice that. Never lariatted/muff dived striker as he was starting run punch? Ocasionally I do. And if player can, then AI2 can too. And if you play aganist Brutal Konoko, you have to be prepared to face consequences ^_^.

And just a hint: Jump attacks or slides CANNOT be interrupted by grab. Thanks to shortened throw distances, also some kicks can reach enemy while he cannot throw you.


Love_Oni: Well, it is a bit tricky. You have to add one extra attack part to Striker's punch_heavy. Then set his first attack part (original one) to cause damage during some reasonable number of frames (original number of frames is good enough). Next, second attack part (which was added) must start during first attack part's active window and end together with 1st. They can match (both have same number of frames/start frame). Then you have to add ThrowTarget flag to this animation. Then it should work.

Example of attack parts (framing):

1st attack part - start frame 1, end frame 100

2nd attack part - start frame 50, end frame 100

=> Clear. Both can hurt if ThrowTarget is set.

WARNING: If you set more attack parts than 2 to be executed at the same time and have ThrowTarget bit set, game will crash.

For complete info, see WIKI


                                                                                                   Loser


P.S.: Bug found in Muro's running throw. Should I fix it? Happens only under special conditions. I ask beacuse it will be 2nd time and I will not rename that *rar file again. So after fix, you will have to D/L throws again.

Last edited by Loser (26/9/08 12:29)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#47 26/9/08 12:33

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Hmm, I understand that this was how Oni always worked, but it still doesn't seem fair; just because I can do it too doesn't mean it's a balanced gameplay element.  Even though we are not trying to bring realism to Oni, we are moving a bit in that direction, right?  As long as it doesn't make the game less fun?  Well, how realistic is it that Konoko, flying through the air, can be grabbed and thrown in the opposite direction?  That's pretty far over to the "Impossible" side of the Reality Spectrum.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#48 26/9/08 12:44

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Well, I apologize but I will keep it as it is. Because:
1.) I really don't know how to change it (so you can still do run kick correctly, you can still grab running enemies with run throw but you CANNOT grab run kicking/punching enemies)
2.) it keeps one from run kick spamming
3.) not all AI2s are Brutal Konoko, capable of using that split-second before attack part of run kick begins.

I know (at least I think) why you don't like it. Yes, I get often pinned down by that when I play against BK, too. But just because I am pwned by that attack doesn't mean it is unfair. I have to come up with something to avoid it. Plus I like it. Finally AI2 which can kick one's @$$ reguraly, not only sometimes.

                                                                                    Loser

And I agree it is highly unrealistical, but... ^_^ it is NOT. Ever watched wrestling? I saw one wrester sucesfully pulled hurracanrana (similar to Konoko's run kick) on enemy who springed himself from ropes and tried to run punch him. And with kick it can work exactly the same. In fact it should hurt you even more as you move in opposite direction. I agree it should NOT throw you so far. Give me time and SW:Force unleashed engine and you will have it ^_^

Last edited by Loser (26/9/08 12:46)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#49 26/9/08 12:50

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Loser wrote:

P.S.: Bug found in Muro's running throw. Should I fix it?

Well, this wasn't going to be your final release of TRAMs, was it?  You can save it for a future release.  (BTW, version numbers are a good thing.)  I mean, nothing's final until the Edition comes out with your modded TRAMs, right?  (And even then, of course, you can release patches.)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#50 27/9/08 10:11

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Thank you Loser, one more thing to learn big_smile.

Through there are many OUP-modding tutorials in wiki, I think I should make some OniSplit-modding tutorials then.


The Boy Who Knew Too Much tongue

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