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#1 15/8/08 16:39

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

TRAM Discussion

Wow, I'm not even gonna read THAT thread, if you know which one I mean (hint, it's spam and it has to do with girls and horses).

Anyway, I just wanted to check something: is it the case that the modded TRAMs make Konoko's escape moves more vulnerable?  Because it seems like my cartwheel in this video should have gotten me away, and it feels cheap that it doesn't work with that timing (I notice it a lot): http://drop.io/0tuseug/asset/escapemovefailskonokosmall

If you watch it frame by frame, she's like halfway through the move, barely near him, and it still counts.  He hit her trailing leg, I know, but I think at that point the move should be invincible.

If anyone happens to want to talk about any of the TRAMs that are going in the Edition, we can do it here, although with Loser gone, I don't know if it will do any good.  Anyway, I think most of the TRAMs are great at this point, but this one bothers me.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#2 15/8/08 16:55

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

There were no horses, I clicked it by accident...>_>

I don't know what to say about the TRAM...


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#3 15/8/08 18:34

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Maybe you'd have to be using the cartwheel yourself to judge the fairness of it.  I might even be wrong in thinking that Loser modded that move, maybe it was always that way, but I thought that he did change it.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#4 15/8/08 22:36

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

I remember the cartwheel being changed, but I never had an issue with it.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#5 18/8/08 5:30

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Hey Iritscen, I still have some time ^_^
This is not mine work. Originally, Konoko is the only one who has invulnerable windows at the beginning of escape TRAMs. Other classes do not have. So this is same as in original ONI, not my work at all. That striker who dodged and got blue flash, THAT is my work ^_^. In original ONI, he would have been hit.

Well, you have to understand my concept of escape moves. Since there is no parry/reversal in ONI, I wanted to make some substitution. Escape moves are. Time them corectly and you roll out of opponents reach unharmed, because during his attack you were invulnerable. Invulnerable windows are small, usually about 20 frames. So it is about 1/2 second (a bit smaller) where escape move is invulnerable. But timed correctly, it is very useful because once contact with some attacker happened, either it was hit or block this attack (this TRAM) cannot hurt you again until it is called again (so striker's punch_heavy cannot hurt you more times if you are cornered. It hits you ONCE). There is exception from this rule, but you almost cannot see it in game.

So if you hit striker later in his roll escape move (not just as he starts move), he gets hit as well as you in the later stage of catwheel (as we can see in the video).

BTW. do you like my TRAM chages? Are there any bugs? Note that silly AI2 is NOT bug, MELE profiles need to be changed in order to stop AI2 from getting pummeled.

                                                                    Loser
P.S.: Since I have internet again (had some problems with DHCP) I can start TRAM work again. Looks like ONIrules is out of the game (school business) so I will finish TRAMs. Is that OK with everybody? If not, write, explain.

Last edited by Loser (18/8/08 5:33)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#6 18/8/08 9:58

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Long time no see, Loser.

P.S.: Since I have internet again (had some problems with DHCP) I can start TRAM work again. Looks like ONIrules is out of the game (school business) so I will finish TRAMs. Is that OK with everybody? If not, write, explain.

Oh, yes. I think there are some bugs in many animations. These are just bugs I have found. Maybe there are many other I haven't known yet.

1 - Something wrong in Elite's crouch moves:
First, I want to tell you that: when you press the "Shift" key while controlling any Elite characters (including TCTF SWAT), you will make them crouch and they will play this two animations (in order):

  "STRIKEidle2croucha" (6 frames)
  "STRIKEidle2crouchb" (6 frames)

(or   "ELICOMidle2croucha" (6 frames) and
       "ELICOMidle2crouchb" (6 frames) if the character is in fighting position)

So when you press the "Shift" key to crouch and then press 'punch' while the character is performing the "STRIKEidle2croucha" (or "ELICOMidle2croucha") animation, he will perform the Elite's punch-low move. Anf if you press 'punch' while the character is performing "STRIKEidle2crouchb" (or "ELICOMidle2crouchb") animation, he will perform the Elite's crouch-punch move. That thing is very important because it helps players to choose the move they want to perform quickly and correctly.

But it doesn't look fine with the kick one. Either if you press 'kick' while the "STRIKEidle2croucha" ("ELICOMidle2croucha") animation is performing or press 'kick' while the "STRIKEidle2crouchb" ("ELICOMidle2crouchb") animation is performing, he still only perform the Elite's kick_low move. If you want to make him perform the Elite's crouch-kick (sweep kick) move, you must wait for 12 frames until he finished performing those two animations and press "kick"! It should have only taken you 6 frames to do that.

2 - I don't know if Elite's blocking animations were right:
When you are controlling any Elite characters (including TCTF SWAT) and you're trying to block an attack while you're crouching, your character will play these animations (in order):

"STRCOMcr_block1"        (6 frames) -it starts to block (crouch block)
"STRCOMcr_block1_id"    (6 frames) -has this animation repeat if the attack has block-stun
"STRCOMcr_block1_end" (2 frames) -end blocking

I think after finish playing those moves, the Elite character will play the "STRIKEcrouch_idle" animation to allow me to execute other moves. But... no, it continued playing these animations:

"STRCOMcr_block1"
"STRCOMcr_block1_end"
"STRCOMcr_block1"
"ELICOMidle1"   (96 frames) - playing this animation means it wants to stop the crouch!
"ELICOMidle2croucha" (6 frames) || => playing these two animations means: after canceled
"ELICOMidle2crouchb" (6 frames) ||  the crouch it wants to crouch again!

So all those animations make the character looks very odd. Hope you can fix those bugs...

(Though I have said too many, I'll post the other bugs later)

P.S: My Oni crashs when I play Comguy's front throw and sometimes, Muro tries to leg-break someone but instead of that, he plays Comguy's front throw! Do you have any way to fix that?

Last edited by love_Oni (19/8/08 20:30)


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#7 18/8/08 11:35

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

OK, Love_Oni, keep positng bugs and I will try to fix them.

As for your PS: you are proudly announced to be winner of "Static-fist-to-the-face contest" ^_^ for being probably 100th person posting those two bugs ^_^. So....wait. Since ONIrules is out of business, I will finish TRAM modification myself. This new TRAM modification will be better, more stable and WITHOUT those bugs because after some time, I found solution for both those bugs.
                                                                      Loser ^_^

Pro_Love_Oni.PNG

Last edited by Loser (18/8/08 11:43)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#8 18/8/08 11:46

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

So... that means you have known that 2 bugs? o_O


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#9 19/8/08 12:41

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

We did report those last two bugs to Loser a while ago, love_Oni, but your other reports are very interesting.  I don't do much playing as alternate characters (I should, but I don't), so I'd never catch that stuff.

Anyway, back on the subject of the cartwheel, it's a fast move that covers a lot of ground, so it's useful for backing out of a bad situation.  And when you think about Konoko performing the move, she should be hard to touch while she's spinning around like that.  Instead she's still an open target after those first few frames, so in a situation where she's surrounded, it's hard to use that move successfully.  That movie shows that I began the cartwheel at the same time he began the kick.  I didn't even do that move as a reaction to his attack; it was a pre-emptive escape so that he would attack, miss, and be left open for my counter-attack.  So imagine if I was trying to evade his kick by reaction, not "pre-action".  The move would have just been starting, so I might have been invulnerable.  Is that fair?  It actually punished me for predicting that an attack was coming, but if I was a newbie and was reacting to it after it started I would probably get away with it.*

In short, I wonder if you would want to extend the invulnerability to at least halfway through that move (the point where I was hit).  I don't want to make the cartwheel easy to abuse, just a little more practical.

I can start TRAM work again [...] Is that OK with everybody?

Of course it is! :-)  You're the expert in TRAMs, after all.  And I like your changes overall.  Honestly, though, sometimes I have a hard time keeping track of what you did and what is original to Oni.  Is there a list that you keep anywhere, of your current TRAM modifications (not in technical terms, but in "layman's terms")?

*(Zone of the Enders does the same thing in the two-player VS. mode.  Newbies often beat me, because if you press the Attack button after the enemy begins to attack you, you perform a dodge-and-strike.  The "window" within which you can dodge-and-strike is the average reaction time of someone who doesn't know what they're doing, just mashing the Attack button when they see me attacking because they aren't good with the buttons for dodging or putting up a shield.)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#10 19/8/08 20:46

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Maybe this is a way to do that with the OniUnPacker (I'm not sure):

1 - Read this TRAM tutorial: http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD:TRAM

2 - Notice in the offset '0x180' and '0x181' (they are near the bottom of the table). That is the number of the first "invulnerable" frame and the last "invulnerable" frame which wrote in hexadecimal. Changing it may solve your problem, Iritscen smile.

*There is a thing I want to ask: In the offset '0x040' and'0x044', they show two direct animations which link from the current TRAM to other TRAM files. For example if I want a TRAM file link to the 'KONCOMlt_fw_kick' TRAM file, then which numbers should I type in those offsets?


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#11 19/8/08 21:06

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Thanks for pointing out those invulnerability variables, love_Oni, I can experiment with that at some point.

which numbers should I type in those offsets?

In that table, 0x040 and 0x044 are marked as "unused".  I don't know if that means they are never looked at by Oni, or if they only aren't used for this sample animation (Rising Fury).


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#12 19/8/08 21:12

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

You can type on the ASCII side of things, you know. smile But I don't know anything about that exact situation.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#13 19/8/08 21:21

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

This is how it looks like when I opened Konoko's comb_k_k TRAM file:

OniUnPacker.jpg

In the offset '0x0040', there are numbers. We knew Konoko's kick-kick animation linked to her kick-kick-kick one, so those numbers mean 'this is Konoko's k-k-k TRAM file'. There must be a way to add a linked TRAM file. Of course, her Rising Fury TRAM doesn't link to any other TRAM files.

*In the OUP I didn't see the offset '0x0048'. Where is it?

@Gumby: You're right. But how to do it, we don't know smile.

Last edited by love_Oni (19/8/08 21:23)


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#14 19/8/08 21:51

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Whoops, I have just discovered how to link this TRAM to other TRAM files. o_O

Notice the four offsets in Konoko's comb_k_k TRAM file (in my last post):

  0187 2200 0188 2200

When I opened Konoko's comb_k_k_k TRAM file, I saw the value of the first offset is: 0187, so that means it's the TRAM file ID number. Like that, the value of the first offset in Konoko's comb_k_k_kfw is 0188. So I think the way to add a linked TRAM fle to others is typing these numbers in the offset '0x0040':

  [TRAM file id number1] [2200: maybe this is the 'link' function] [TRAM file id number2]
[2200]

Last edited by love_Oni (19/8/08 21:51)


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#15 20/8/08 1:39

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Just type on the righthand side big_smile (not for that though, for other things)

---

And Loser wins the "Run-from-the-annoyed-community award" for making such a bug in the first place. smile

runloser.jpg
runloser2.jpg


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#16 20/8/08 9:55

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Yes, since I have part time job now and I have night shifts for a whole week, I won't be able to mod. So basically, Gumby has a point. I ran away. ^_^
                                                                Loser

P.S.: And I am Comguy, not Striker. Comguy is smart@$$ and coward. Like me. ^_^

P.S.2: and for Iritscen:
I know it is a bit unfair. Agreed. But if we make invulnerability lager, it will affect gameplay too much. That would make sensless dodging too awarding. In current state it is form of "parry"(you have to be precise with timing) or at least attempt for such an action. No no, if you predict attack, don't escape in line but (as I was taught in Karatedo) escape to the side of attack. That means: Do cartwheel escape and use mouse to turn a bit while performing move. That should help. Once again, I know it is unfair. But it is good way I think. If you predict enemy's move, roll aside and take advantage of his back ^_^.

Last edited by Loser (20/8/08 12:53)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#17 20/8/08 11:16

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Oh good. You were Barabus, but I had to demote you. Comguy works too.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#18 20/8/08 13:36

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

I guess you're right, Loser, and I will try to turn while cartwheeling and see how that works.  I do use the side-rolls too, and they are quite effective, just not in situations where Konoko is surrounded by goons on three sides.  Oh well.

Awesome pics, Gumby. big_smile

love_Oni wrote:

In the OUP I didn't see the offset '0x0048'. Where is it?

It's important to know how to read the hex addresses on the left.  0x040 is the address of the first digit in that row, not for the whole row.  To see what I mean if you didn't figure it out already, count the number of hexadecimal digits in the left area, across one row.  There's 32, right?  Each pair of numbers is counted as one hex entry.  So, there's 16 entries.  0x040 + 16 ('10' in hex) = 0x050, the starting address of the next row.  0x048 is halfway between 0x040 and (0x040 + 0x010).  So, in other words, count down the row that starts with 0x040 until you reach the 17th digit.  Now you're at the address 0x048 (hint: it's where the zeroes start, right after '2200' ends).

(I'm sure someone will catch a mistake in that blurb, it's inevitable ;-)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#19 21/8/08 10:58

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Ah, I understand.

@Gumby: Nice pics! How did you make those pictures?, by photoshop or by changing AIs' names? If you can do that so tell me how to make an AI Tanker in level 1 smile.


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#20 21/8/08 15:24

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

I edited the names myself. That file may or may not be released. ^_^

---

There are two ways to do that...both involve opening up the CHAR file.

0. Before any of this, open up a command prompt with Onisplit ready (make sure it is the newest version!)

0.5 . Backup your edition\Gamedata\level1_Final.dat

1. Go to your level1 folder and find the "BINACJBOCharacter.oni"

1.5 Back up the .oni file

2. (Windows trick here, you pretty much just need the path of the file) Hold shift, and right click the file, and click the option that says "Copy as Path".

3. Go to Onisplit, and type this as your command line arguments:

-extract:xml "PATH OF WHERE YOU WANT THE XML" "PATH OF .ONI FILE"

If you did the copy-path trick, for the path of the .oni file, just right click and hit paste.

4. Press enter  ^_^

5. Open up the xml file with your favorite editing application (Probably Notepad, but some programs have good xml editors)

6. Each character is located betweeen a set of <Object Id="###" Type="CHAR"> and </CHAR> tags. At this point, there are several ways to go about adding a new one. You could either:

A. Copy the tanker file from another file. This will entail extracting another xml file from a different level. If you go this route, make sure you copy the <Position></Position> tags from another character so he spawns somewhere safe\normal.

B. Copy another character from the same level, but change the <Class> tags to tanker_med_1 (or easy or hard). Make sure you change the name to something else too. smile <Name> is what you use to spawn the guy with.

Of these routes, A is probably the safest. B works, but may or may not cause the Tankers to be not as smart fighting, especially they use different sorts of moves (Blockbuster). You would need to copy over the melee id and such from another file, so if you are worried, go with A. smile

7. Go back to Onisplit and use this command

-create "WHERE YOU WANT THE ONI FILE" "THE PATH OF THE XML FILE"

8. Now move the newly created .oni file into your level1 folder (you backed the old one up, right?)

9. Last Onisplit command

-import:nosep "PATH OF LEVEL1 FOLDER" "PATH OF DAT\level1_Final.dat"

10. Now Copy the .dat file to your edition\Gamedata folder and start up ONi (using the .bat of course smile )

11. Enjoy the Tanker smile

Last edited by Gumby (21/8/08 15:25)


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#21 21/8/08 22:38

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

Ah, that's thing is not very hard to understand, but it quite takes a bit long time. I wonder how you could have patient enough just to import many characters and make some funny pictures like that. big_smile

*Fun tip: In game, shapeshift into Mutant Muro and type the 'minime' cheat code two times to turn him into normal height. Give him a Hughes Black Adder and try to fire. Funny thing that he can't shoot anyone but himself.

Last edited by love_Oni (21/8/08 23:03)


The Boy Who Knew Too Much tongue

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#22 22/8/08 2:22

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Well you only have to import\export once. You can add as many characters as you like. Its actually really easy.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#23 27/8/08 15:26

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

Okay, let's play Count The Things That Are Weird Here:

GriffinBug.jpg

I'm curious as to how many you can find.  Then we'll discuss the important ones.

Last edited by Iritscen (22/7/17 14:31)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#24 28/8/08 6:14

love_Oni
Member
From: Da Nang, Vietnam
Registered: 10/5/08

Re: TRAM Discussion

I think the unable-to-throw bug is caused by some techniques in the characters' Melee profiles. For example: Striker's throws and Muro's front-throw are easy to be perform but if you shapeshift them into Konoko class, then that bug can be appear many times because Konoko's front-punch-throw and back-punch-throw are harder to be perform than theirs. That bug also can be appear if the value of min and max 'distance inst' in the technique command were set a bit high. (I'm not sure)

The second bug: Did you use ONIrules's particle TRAMs hack? That bug usually appear after I used his TRAMs.


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#25 28/8/08 6:53

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: TRAM Discussion

The flash bugs are harmless. The impact particle have just a few broken or missing links. They appear that way also in the original version of Oni.
It seems that OniRulz added only colorful contrails or you are using an older version of his release - I'm not that much familiar with his modding history.
(Just in case.. here are some flash fixes I made a while ago. But note that these ONCCs doesn't contain Loser's particle collision mod. Feel free to combine the stuff so that we haven't floating everywhere these puzzle pieces.)

Last edited by paradox-01 (28/8/08 11:28)

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