Learning to make models

Gumby · 08/16/08 00:08

Indeed, reduce your polycount.

And I was just being curious. It would have taken less words to answer than to type out your snappy retort.

ONIrules · 08/16/08 08:08

Reducing the polygons will make the weapon looks a bit wacky.
Loser TRAM improvment: I'm still working on it beacause I have HW from school.

Iritscen · 08/16/08 09:08

I don't want to be annoying, so I'll just say this much and then shut up about it: the weapons you make, no matter how awesome they are, must have as many polygons as the average Oni weapon or it will be very hard to get them included in the Edition.

The pistol (w1tap) is 177 polys and the plasma rifle (w3phr) is 199 polys, for your reference. The rocket launcher and other new weapons can look perfectly good with no more than 250 polygons (that's 1/8th of the polys it uses now). If the program doesn't do a good job of automatically reducing polys (if there is even such a command), then it has to be done manually, by merging polygons, or simply be rebuilt from scratch to look like the existing model.

I know you might be new to 3D modeling, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Please don't be discouraged by this, as I appreciate your work, and we all have to start from a position of being a newbie at something before we learn more. Just so you know, 3D modeling can be time-consuming work, but weapons are easy compared to modeling characters because they're composed of regular geometric shapes. I moved pretty much every one of the 584 points in this model's head (on the left) one at a time, up to several times each, to get it to the stage it's at, and it's still got a ways to go.

I know you have school to think about, so just take your time with your Oni work. Latest word from geyser indicates to me that the Edition is probably delayed to the end of the year (that's not definite, so don't hold me to that, and I will still push for another beta release before then). The point is, we have time. You have time to learn the modeling software and work on TRAMs and I have time to do 1,000 other things I said I'd do

If you need any help, we're here for you, so don't feel overwhelmed.

ONIrules · 08/16/08 15:08

Ok I will focus this later. Now for Loser TRAM hacking.

Iritscen: Maybe that too much polygons even its lower than 2000 polygons will make the flickering thingy come out. I took out the plasma rifle I made and its only 1010 polygons which I think thats the best amount of polygons for the any weapon to import to Oni.

Last edited by ONIrules (08/16/08 19:08)

Iritscen · 08/19/08 12:08

I hope you don't think this emphasis on low poly counts is coming from me. I'm just relaying what I know geyser would say. Ultimately, even if he doesn't include these weapons in the Edition, though, you can still release them on your own. So, hey, it's a free country. Just to make sure you know why we think even 1,010 polys is too many for a weapon, here's the basic question you have to ask yourself: as you decrease the number of polygons in a model, at what point do you start to see the polygons during gameplay? When does the model start to look chunky and not smooth? Will you see the polygons in a gun when it has over 1,000 of them? No. Not unless you purposely take the camera in very close, and even then I'm not sure. Think about how often a gun is actually seen up-close in Oni. When Konoko herself is holding it, you rarely see much of it at all.

The idea here is to be as efficient as possible. If our modern PCs ran Oni flawlessly it would be one thing, but I still barely top 15fps, and scenarios like OTA are practically unplayable, and I have a nearly state-of-the-art laptop that was made almost six years after Oni came out. So the last thing we need is unnecessary polygons.

P.S.: Just as an exercise in curiosity, I extracted your models to DAE (and OBJ to make sure the DAE was correct), and found hundreds upon hundreds of extra vertices. Vertices are at least as important to Oni's engine as faces (polys). If a weapon had 2,049 vertices, for instance, it would crash Oni, and it would crash Oni at 1,025 vertices if we were using cel-shading. So let's look at the w17sap. It has 964 vertices, and when I have Blender remove double vertices it goes down to 393 without removing any faces. I don't know at what point those extra vertices got there and if they're getting carried into Oni. EdT, is there anything you can add to this discussion?

EdT · 08/19/08 20:08

Nothing to add, you know more about 3D than I do. Where is the command in Blender to remove double vertices?

Iritscen · 08/19/08 21:08

Select all points in the object ('A') while in Edit Mode, then choose Mesh->Vertices->Remove Doubles. Or, call up the Specials menu with 'W' and press '6' for the sixth option.

I brought your name up, Ed, because I wasn't sure of the workflow in getting these weapons to the point they're at in this plug-in (what programs, what steps, which people worked on them if not just ONIrules, etc.). I remembered we had duplicate vertices in Motoko too and couldn't remember how that came about.

ONIrules · 09/07/08 19:09

Now I know how to import weapons how can I import aircrafts on Oni. I found a low poly aircraft and I want to replace planes in Chapter 4 and Chapter 14.
Also I want to replace some crates and barrels in the Syndicate Warehouse. I don't want to use OUP because I want to keep the old ones and new ones so everytime I load the level different barrels and crate changes (like have some red striker and black striker in chapter 7)

Speaking of barrels I have 2 ideas. We can make explosive barrels when a projectiles touches it on contact (except the VDG Pistol projectile) and then explodes. The explosion should be the one when the comguy dies.
Not sure if this is even possible. Also have another idea. It will be more interesting when you put toxic barrels next to bio liquid vats.

Last edited by ONIrules (09/07/08 20:09)

Iritscen · 09/07/08 21:09

Believe it or not, I was just thinking of explosive barrels in Oni earlier today. Not sure if it's doable, though.

EdT · 09/07/08 21:09

ONIrules: The aircraft and crates are part of the AKEV http://wiki.oni2.net/AKEV and at present we are not able to modify them. Currently, we can only export the AKEV and look at it with a 3D program, but Neo is working to change that! :-)

If you notice any M3GM that we add to a level has no collision factor, in other words you can walk right through them. So I don't know if you could make an explosive barrel. But then again, smarter people may be able to figure out a way.

Loser · 09/07/08 23:09

ONIrules:

Don't work on attack TRAMs, I finished them. Geyser's request. We are moving on throws. If you have any comment or advice, please write it into your talk page.

General:

So...you want to make explosive barrel? Well, 2 years ago I tried that. Result: EPIC FAIL

Reasons: AKEV is made of quads. Which collision one quad should have is defined by material assigned to them in TMBD.BINA . Level 0 file, Texture Material Binary Data, HERE is link to Wiki.
From all materials (list of materials is HERE) only Clear_Glass, Small_Glass and Tinted_Glass are known to react on incoming projectile that way they disappear (so you can move through that space then) and are replaced with GLASS_SHARD PAR3. Other materials -> I don't know exactly, looks like they call for appropriate sound and effect (bullethole, glasscrack) but no disappearing. So glass is only one which has collision and that is hardcoded thigie (if you mess "glass_shard" name in dat, then you cannot shoot breakable glass panels)

Then we can try PAR3 powered barrel. That way, we could even move it! NO X_x. There is no PAR3 -> PAR3 collision -_-. (BTW that is what prevents us from making particle powered swords. No collision = aggresivity wins. That is bad, so NO swords)

So we can try OBOA powered barrel. But then, OBOAs are broken, so even if they can collide with bullets, there are bugs + you cannot jump onto OBOA object (code bug) which looks weird. Futhermore, again there is no way to force OBOA to "disappear" and play custom PAR3 when hit.

Overall, engine effectively disables us from any good solution. I wanna source. ^_^'

Loser

P.S.: Looked into Oni.exe . Looks like daodanshield_e01, glass_shard and maybe some more are "reserved", hardcoded into engine.

Last edited by Loser (09/08/08 00:09)

Iritscen · 09/08/08 10:09

Bummer, stupid hard-coding. I know that sometimes it's just too hard for a developer to make something resource-dependent, or not worth the time, but I'm surprised that this particular feature would be hard-coded. I wonder if we could add materials to the hard-coded list with some hex editing? Would that mess up the total length of the executeable?

Loser · 09/08/08 11:09

Well, you lead us to interesting idea:

Make new material (Explosive) and set up ONIE entry for it. When collision w1_tap_p01 X Explosive occurs, create effect w5_sbg_p01 (it is capable of living alone, without its emitting gun, so it is good for testing).

Hmmmm......maybe there IS way I overlooked ^_^ ?

Of course this way you cannot make barrel "disappear". At least you can't according to my knowledge. But from what you have said and from some research I quickly done I am starting to have doubts about my theory how collision effects work. What if those "location types" or some of "unknown fields" in particle table (see wiki) is in fact bit for "make quad disappear"?

Question is why it is in particle table then. Maybe because it has to compute number of particles to distribute among whole structure in order to "fill" it? Lots of questions, answers are up to us.

Iritscen, you are awesome. Wanna help me with this research ??
Loser

Last edited by Loser (09/08/08 11:09)

Iritscen · 09/08/08 13:09

I'm not awesome, I just make stuff up as I go along. Maybe I got lucky and said something to inspire you, Loser, but it I really know nothing about the binaries. I don't know what file types do what. I wouldn't mind trying my hand at binary modding, but I don't know where to begin.

Gumby · 09/08/08 14:09

Just make the barrel out of glass.

Also, which particle table are you talking about?

ONIrules · 09/08/08 17:09

Darn!! Editing the level required plus NO import. Maybe I have to wait.

To EdT: Have you made the pallet rifle yet? If not I can help you (just to make sure you did it or not )
Pallet Rifle
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/I … /ID/180387

Last edited by ONIrules (09/08/08 17:09)

EdT · 09/08/08 18:09

ONIrules: I have not, real life has been too busy for me. Go ahead and import the pallet rifle.

Also did you see this page: http://wiki.oni2.net/User:Paradox-01/for_WIP_pages
There is a section for you:

adding colorful trail to TRAM
ONIrules might want to add this.

ONIrules · 09/08/08 18:09

Hm...........................Pretty colors

Since I love making particles, someday I might make more contrails colors. Making MasterChief master colors and even make TCTF Swat flashes for their own instead of the strflash. And pallet rifle it is. Will be making it like today for tomorrow. But I need to complete my science and algebra homework first.

Yay. Its finished!! I like when Konoko says Showtime. So SHOWTIME!

Last edited by ONIrules (09/08/08 19:09)

EdT · 09/08/08 19:09

ONIrules: From your wiki page:

Write a tutorial to modders who wants to add trails and particles on moves

Adding colorful trail to TRAM is reserved for your tutorial :-)

ONIrules · 09/08/08 20:09

Silly me. Oni crashed when I import the pallet rifle. Then checking back to the XML file I put M3GMww34_plr LOL
After editing and importing the rifle looks good.

Still need to make the weapon in the right position though. Plus turn bullets to SILVER BULLETS

Last edited by ONIrules (09/08/08 20:09)

ONIrules · 09/08/08 21:09

Darn!! Teaching modders how to add trails will be hard. First is TRAM can't be turn to XML. Second hex editing is possible, but it can be complicated since contrail can start anywhere. Third OUP is the BEST tool for editing. I need a little time so I can describe clearly on how to add them.

Last edited by ONIrules (09/08/08 21:09)

ONIrules · 09/08/08 22:09

I have done writing the tutorial in my best explantion. Feel free to edit are make the page more "clearer" if I have errors or stuff. http://wiki.oni2.net/User:Paradox-01/for_WIP_pages

paradox-01 · 09/09/08 12:09

Good and bad news: Our fresh tutorials are already outdated. Neo coded xml export and import for TRAM. Looks like we got pwned, ONIrules. ^_^ But I'm thankful for your contribution and won't poke you to write a tutorial about XSI modding since we have a new candy that need to be tasted.

Last edited by paradox-01 (09/09/08 14:09)

Gumby · 09/09/08 14:09

Hmm? How was I pwned?

paradox-01 · 09/09/08 14:09

Did I wrote "Gumby"? I'm a bit nervous because of onisplit right now, so please excuse me.

Last edited by paradox-01 (09/09/08 14:09)

Oni Central Forum

#51 08/16/08 00:08

Re: Learning to make models

#52 08/16/08 08:08

Re: Learning to make models

#53 08/16/08 09:08

Re: Learning to make models

#54 08/16/08 15:08

Re: Learning to make models

#55 08/19/08 12:08

Re: Learning to make models

#56 08/19/08 20:08

Re: Learning to make models

#57 08/19/08 21:08

Re: Learning to make models

#58 09/07/08 19:09

Re: Learning to make models

#59 09/07/08 21:09

Re: Learning to make models

#60 09/07/08 21:09

Re: Learning to make models

#61 09/07/08 23:09

Re: Learning to make models

#62 09/08/08 10:09

Re: Learning to make models

#63 09/08/08 11:09

Re: Learning to make models

#64 09/08/08 13:09

Re: Learning to make models

#65 09/08/08 14:09

Re: Learning to make models

#66 09/08/08 17:09

Re: Learning to make models

#67 09/08/08 18:09

Re: Learning to make models

#68 09/08/08 18:09

Re: Learning to make models

#69 09/08/08 19:09

Re: Learning to make models

#70 09/08/08 20:09

Re: Learning to make models

#71 09/08/08 21:09

Re: Learning to make models

#72 09/08/08 22:09

Re: Learning to make models

#73 09/09/08 12:09

Re: Learning to make models

#74 09/09/08 14:09

Re: Learning to make models

#75 09/09/08 14:09

Re: Learning to make models

Board footer