Oni Central Forum

A forum for the Oni community

You are not logged in.

#1 02/20/08 04:02

Ghalion
Member
Registered: 02/18/08

My own little goal for a mod

Hey guys, I'm very new to this oni modding stuff (haven't made a single mod or a script, and I've never even seen the oni wiki page, or any other page like it prior to this week), but I've taken a fancy to making my own little oni mod. I'm going to list the features I want to do here (I might add more later). If any of you have any feedback or suggestions please feel free to tell me!

First off I like hearing myself type so I'll bore you all by describing my motivations for my mod.

I personally find that oni (yes even on hard) is a bit easy most of the time with a few exceptions. There are plenty of mods that crank up the difficulty in some way, and they are very good, but they aren't EXACTLY what I want, and the best person to do exactly what I want is me...even if I'm not the most qualified for the job.

Oni is such a cool game in my opinion because of the hand to hand combat. I think the guns in the game kinda destroy what makes oni unique. No that there is anything wrong with guns in games, it's just that if I want a shooter game I'm going to play ut. not oni, I play oni for hand to hand combat.

Soooo. removing all the guns (or most at least) form the game is ideal, or at least making them less significant/powerful.

The rest of my mod is to focus on rebalancing the hand to hand combat components of this game.

For example, why is konoko's punch, punch, kick combo stronger than her kick kick kick combo, even though the latter is slower, and harder to connect with? Why does that super-painful looking elite striker backbreaker move do less damage than that afformentioned punch punch kick combo?

ANYWAY.. on to my list of ideal changes:

nerf/remove all guns
Increase health of all enemies somewhat (to compensate the buffing of some of konoko's less useful moves mostly) via the ongs file
decrease konoko's health significantly (to half, or even less, I'm thinking 1/4 actually).
MAYBE, give konoko an elderrune type health regen to componsate for her lack of health.
Maybe give a perma-carousel thingie too, just to promote smart play in combat over boring but effective tactics
Increase the damage of some of konoko's less useful or harder moves. like her kick kick kick combo, her twister kick, her crouch attacks, etc.
Increase the damage of ALL moves which look freakin painful (except konoko's backbreaker.. mostly because it's already overpowered), namely tanker throws, elite striker backbreakers, that crazy innacurate elite tctf kick combo)
Maybe increase the number of enemies. I don't mean titanstyle overwhelming numbers. But just a bit of easier ones here and there just for variety (for example maybe a tanker or two earlier in the game, more civilian type enemies later in the game, etc).

That's probably enough for a newbie (more than enough actually), if I ever become proficient at this I might work on some more advanced stuff that would most likely be impossible if it weren't for geyser's crazy giant mod thingie (I wanna call it anniversary thingie, but that's not out yet, I mean the thing that gets instealled by bigdeal.bat though).

Things like:
Adding new "levels" of certain enemies, like green/black/purple/whatever color enemies of the existing type, with more health/damage than their regular versions.
Adding enemies that have muro's fighting style, but not muro...just for variety

Offline

#2 02/20/08 05:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: My own little goal for a mod

"I wanna call it anniversary thingie, but that's not out yet" You can call it the Edition.
"nerf/remove all guns" The only simple way to take guns away is with chr_inv_reset

"Increase health of all enemies somewhat" Already done in the Edition (ONCC).
"decrease konoko's health significantly" Not done, but perhaps a future option.

"Increase the damage of some of konoko's less useful or harder moves."
"Increase the damage of ALL moves which look freakin painful"
Those two have also been taken care of, perhaps not "your way".

"just a bit of easier ones here and there just for variety" Go ahead.
Reshuffling encounters is one thing the Edition is ultimately about.

elderrune can't be emulated. It and carousel are probably best left in as cheats.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#3 02/20/08 10:02

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: My own little goal for a mod

Yeah, Ghalion, this sounds interesting, but you definitely want to check out the changes that geyser and Loser made to the attack specs so you know where things stand now.  But maybe you have already, and you still think it's too easy.  I do agree that p-p-k should in no way be stronger than k-k-k, but maybe they already fixed that in the Edition (I don't have a grasp of all the changes they made, but they are documented... somewhere...).

That being said, a melee-only mod would be interesting, esp. if it had fistsoflegend-style knockback built in, so it was like a wuxia film smile


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

Offline

#4 02/20/08 17:02

Seventeen Seconds
Member
Registered: 09/30/07

Re: My own little goal for a mod

Ghalion, the original Oni concept was the seamless integration of H+H and weapons.  I'd suggest rather than removing guns entirely (which could always be a player-selected option), there's ways to make the gameplay tighter.  That's adding true parabolic arcs to ballistic weapons, no auto-aim, high recoil (like the Campbell), differentiating armored targets (strikers, yes, civilians, no), stoppages (jammed guns), losing the point of aim while turning, weapons going down near walls (like in SWAT 4), less lethal weapons, whatever else you can think of.  Better integration of melee and H+H would be among my highest priorities --  having to drop a weapon to deal with a close threat is a pain.  Plus there's all the animation possibilities (disarming while holding a weapon).

I think the highest ideal here would be bringing weapons to have an effect on the player in 3d space.  Recoil that can move or knock down the player if not managed properly.  Weapons affect speed and mobility.  Rocket launchers have backblast that can adversely affect the character in small spaces.

If anyone remembers Marathon, the fusion pistol would affect your vision for seconds if you got hit by it.  Little things like that add to immersion.  Basically the point I would make, stay away from the 'point and shoot' model of Counter-Strike and make using weapons a tactical decision with both pros and cons.  That way we stay true to Oni's spirit as the thinking person's action game.

If you've never played ninja-style with zero (killed on blocking) or very little health, you're missing out on the most interesting and challenging gameplay Oni has to offer, which is the asymmetry of facing multiple armed opponents with nothing.  Try from the ACC interior (save point 3) with 5-10 health if you're curious.

Last edited by Seventeen Seconds (02/20/08 18:02)

Offline

#5 02/20/08 19:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: My own little goal for a mod

About "having to drop a weapon to deal with a close threat". I told ya: F (and C) let you do every possible combo.
And if you leave out the Edition's twin-mode weapons, then you just "bind mousebutton3 to punch" and enjoy life.
Also, how come you don't even mention holstering? Do you consider it's "not fair" because the AI never holster?

Recoil animations already move the player along, but it's not so dramatic that it knocks you off ledges and such.
It's painful to define or detect just when recoil is being "managed properly". Would require more engine hooks.
(and the problem with engine hooks is that they'd be pretty much a PC exclusive unless we get a Mac hacker)

The player can already be hurt by his own grenades or even plasma rifle fire (OK, that one may be too subtle).
Temporary blindness is totally feasible (and has even been used in a few mods), but hard to bind to weapons.
The major issue is to detect what we've just been hit with, and since Oni uses generic hit anims for all that...
Still, adding a whiteout effect to the "stunned" animation is quite feasible. Or redout on low health. Or such.

On the issue of overpower, Konoko already packs a harder punch (enemies get knocked back a bit further).
Apart from that, it's already possible (on PC) to make an overpowered Konoko jump higher and run faster.
That'll add to expert overpower tactics such as this: http://zdlo.oni2.net/Movies/tricks/RocketJump.wmv

"true parabolic arcs to ballistic weapons, no auto-aim, high recoil (like the Campbell)"
Auto-aiming is already best disabled because of how the new AI dodge everything smile
I'd have high recoil only for the Campbell and that revolver of yours. For the rest, no.
As for ballistic arcs, huh? What'll be next? realistic (supersonic) projectile velocities?

"differentiating armored targets (strikers, yes, civilians, no)" How exactly? "yes/no"?
Penalties for civilian casualties are quite welcome, but what form would they take?

"stoppages (jammed guns)" No, no, no. We don't want Oni to be annoying, do we?

"losing the point of aim while turning, weapons going down near walls" Probably not. That wouldn't be Oni.
Not to mention that Oni's engine doesn't really allow for the latter at all (new environment interaction? smile )

"less lethal weapons, whatever else you can think of" I thought of "just" making all guns unholsterable.
That spices up melee a lot since you can no longer make the deadly guns "vanish" from a messy fight.
It would force you to drop a weapon to operate consoles, but heh, Konoko needs both her hands then.
I mean to be able to throw people around while holding a grenade launcher, why not? (BTW, you can)
But to hack a console, surely Konoko would drop her gun, even if it makes her doubly vulnerable...

The unholsterable guns are IMO a nice option, but I'm not sure the casual gamers would be enthralled.
Another radical change worth considering is to disable melee auto-aiming for truly full melee freedom.

Last edited by geyser (02/20/08 19:02)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#6 02/20/08 20:02

Seventeen Seconds
Member
Registered: 09/30/07

Re: My own little goal for a mod

It's 1) because a mouse wheel safety is the way to transition between firing and H+H which is easiest for the player to control, and 2) because guns in real life have safeties.  If you hit something hand enough with a gun, they will sometimes go off.  Adds a new twist to H+H, doesn't it?  Same thing with weapons jamming, or overheating (look up 'runaway gun' on google).  It adds levels of complexities to what is otherwise very simple in gaming.  A stoppage is more than annoying at a critical moment -- it presents the player with a choice.  Use Q to transition to a backup weapon, retreat and try and fix the problem, or go hand-to-hand?  But the player shouldn't be dictated the 'correct' key layout anyway, it should be customizable to personal taste (f, c, safety, whatever).  I don't want to holster because it wastes time.

Recoil, think of the terrorist firing HV rounds in the Ghost in the Shell movie.  And I want it dramatic enough that say, a chaingun cannot be controlled while moving or standing, you need to crouch to find an effective stance.  The AT weapon Batou fires can actually knock you over if you don't pause between rounds.  Not every weapon should kick as hard as the Campbell -- which FYI is possible to control.  Fire a full clip at a glass window and pull down hard on the mouse until you start getting a tight grouping. 

Weapons effects don't have to be restricted to the screen either, effects can happen to the HUD.  Namco fighting games actually have different animation effects when taking health off the character, depending on the attack suffered.

Parabolic arcs are noticeable at around 300 meters, same with the delay in the time it takes a round to reach the target.  Normal bullets are supersonic, so well, yes.  Having to lead a target in Oni with a regular weapon and making a difficult shot would be satisfying.  Not every weapon has to work like the MercBow.

Dropping the weapon in tight spaces, adding drift (which already happens while running), losing the point of aim during fast turns, all make using weapons more difficult without reducing their power.  What's not Oni about that? 

I don't like how guns vanish either.  Slinging them over the shoulder would be good for rifles, leg holster for sidearms, heavy weapons unholsterable (including the SBG).  Taking a gun out of a fight would be made more interesting by being forced to destroy it (new key).

Lastly, Geyser, I'm thinking of the ideal game here, not the game you're obligated to program.  This is just brainstorming and daydreaming.  I mean, I'd like to be able to aim and shoot in the middle of performing a disarm.

Ghalion, I'd like to know what you think, seeing as you started the thread because you found the weapons in Oni lacking.  Do you feel the same way concerning the VDG?

Offline

#7 02/21/08 09:02

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: My own little goal for a mod

I would like to see much more recoil from weapons in the game (esp. the chaingun, as you say -- is recoil cut down by crouching in Oni, or can it be, geyser?), but I really think overheating and other "glitchy" behavior such as losing accuracy while turning would be perceived as annoying by most players.  Geyser's philosophy has been keeping the game fun while adding some realism, not making it a gritty simulator, and I think most of us agree with him on that idea, if not always on every specific way to keep that balance.

Also, there's little point in "brainstorming" or "daydreaming" when it comes to game modding*; there's only "impossible", "really difficult", and "practical" suggestions, and many of your ideas fall under impossible or really difficult.  Let's try to focus on what can be done before August.  No one says modding has to stop after the Edition comes out; we'll be free to keep improving the game, and we may well start modding the game individually to produce our own customized versions of Oni that are more to our liking, but for now, it would be great if we were all behind geyser in his efforts.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't argue with him once in a while, though, just to keep things interesting. big_smile

*Daydreaming and brainstorming are better suited to writing storylines in the Oni2 section of the wiki.


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

Offline

#8 02/21/08 11:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: My own little goal for a mod

Err... you're gonna make me paranoid with words like "all behind geyser".
The gameplay philosophy implemented so far is Loser's more than mine.

As for whether fire-while-crouching could have less recoil... maybe not.
The shooting animation is an overlay that doesn't care about the body.
However, crouching could provide better aim with long-range weapons.
(this, and prone mode, has already been done for the mercury bow)

Last edited by geyser (02/21/08 11:02)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#9 02/21/08 12:02

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: My own little goal for a mod

geyser wrote:

Err... you're gonna make me paranoid with words like "all behind geyser".

What do you mean?  We're friends, aren't we?  You don't have a problem with me standing behind you, do I?

(this, and prone mode, has already been done for the mercury bow)

Quoi?


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

Offline

#10 02/21/08 12:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: My own little goal for a mod


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#11 02/21/08 12:02

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: My own little goal for a mod

Cool, will check out.


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

Offline

#12 02/21/08 13:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: My own little goal for a mod

A more recent version of the Prone mode script, with crouching added.
http://oni.bungie.org/forums/index.php? … #post_7452

Late reply to 17secs:

Not sure how you and Ghalion are supposed to feel about the VDG, but I told you an extra immersive whiteout is readily feasible.
Other weapons would have to be tracked down for a HUD effect (impossible right now), but the low-health redout is quite easy.

"I mean, I'd like to be able to aim and shoot in the middle of performing a disarm." How consistent is that with your other wishes?
If you want the weapon to lose aim just because you're turning around, just how could you aim while you're wrestling with a guy?
Back to Oni, you can shoot while disarming, and especially towards the end of the disarm it's quite an appropriate thing to do...
However, in the process of disarming, the gun is not really yours until you've disabled the enemy. Therefore no precise aiming.

Guns vanish in Oni for the simple reason that the engine can only handle so many physical objects at the same time.
For the sake of realism, vanishing can be disabled (wp_disable_fade=1), compensated with a wp_reset at checkpoints.
I think I'll really try and make all of Oni weapons 100% unholsterable in the next release, just to hear the reactions smile
Destroying guns is not really an option in Oni, however you can make them useless by emptying and dropping them.
Throwing loaded guns away is already possible in areas with ledges and pits or areas which the enemies can't access.
In Oni 2, I figured Konoko would be able to throw guns into enemies, to high places, or just way way up (to buy time).

About the realistic effects of confinement and fast turns, it's already there, sorta, if you take away auto-aiming. Relax.
I told you auto-aiming was already ill-suited to deal with weapon-dodging enemies, but without auto-aiming... well, try.
The smart dodging and Oni's slow projectiles already made the gunplay much more technical, almost frustratingly so.

About the ballistic arcs, grouping and projectile velocity: there's stuff to finetune there, but I'd keep it simplified.
After all, why don't we remove the laser sights, leaving only the crosshair if anything? Right. To keep things fun.
Oni's bullets are sluggish (about Mach 0.3) and even the Mercury Bow is "only" 540 m/s, but I'd keep it that way.

I agree that strong recoil such as the Campbell's should be rare. And I know the Campbell is tameable, thanks.
High recoil for a chaingun is quite possible, and it will effectively force the player to pause and recenter/relocate.
Oni has quite a few recoil-related settings, not all of which are still undocumented http://wiki.oni2.net/ONWC

About the mouse-wheel safety, what's wrong with "bind mousebutton3 to punch", really? It's technical enough, I'd say.
If you're careful about switching from "fire1" to "punch" in close-quarters combat, you have your fabled "new twist".
And if you're not careful about using F (or the mouse wheel or whatever) to punch, you'll have the obvious penalty.
FYI, nearly all of Oni's actions are custom-bindable by users, with the exception of some Developer Mode hotkeys.

Last edited by geyser (02/21/08 15:02)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB