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#101 17/7/10 10:16

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Oni 2

@Gore: Personally, I don't like gore, things like L4D2 it's almost like gore just for the sake of gore itself, and again, also because it's what gamers are "in to" today. However I think "Blood" gore should be optional, or at least have a "low" option, probably only apply to weapons, like a realistic splatter when a bullet goes through them (no offense to AE blood, you guys tried smile ) but I do agree with bone breaking mechanics. Not sure how that would work, but I think, when I do a running lariat and snap a guys neck and they get back up.... that just doesn't make sense somehow... Like I said, not sure how a mechanism like that would work, but I'm sure theres a way.  (I think tearing arms off is a bit much, but the thought does make me giggle

@Smart button: So... if you're running at, say a low barrel in Oni, and press this button, it jumps over, and slides under, say, a laser also? Not a bad idea, but I think it would be extremely difficult to implement in Oni 1. But again, probably a good suggestion in Oni 2, especially if theres going to be more of an environnment

@Sci-fi/High tech stuff: It's not that far of a stretch really, and again, you're looking at what the players want versus what makes sense. To me, I loved the situation of the games setting, because it's very realistic. In a world that's slowly dying, do you think they'll be thinking about "Hey this building looks boxy, lets tear is down and build a more high tech one!" Or, "Hey, why are we still training with bots when we can train with holograms?"
Yes it's the future, and I agree we should play a bit more on that, because obviously, there would be some changes, but I don't think we should stray from that rough, rugged almost grungy look of a world on the brink of chaos. (I may have rambled a bit there, I'm not sure if all my ideas really apply to the original statements, but I just put out there what I thought as best I could, try to make sense of it big_smile )

@Real/Cel-Shaded: We really do have to find the balance here. Do we go more real to appeal to other gamers? Or do we keep up the trend and go anime style. Personally, I want to keep the simplicity of animé stylings. You have games like left for dead, and those games, the faces are very detailed, I don't think Oni should look like that at all. I think a better comparison might be Fable. Less detailed, but the characters don't look boxy tongue Honestly, for m one of the appeals of Oni are the simple graphics, there is something to be said about detail overload.
Even so, as long as their mouths move when they talk in Oni2, I'm gonna be happy  lol

@I've always disagreed when people say they didn't develop her personality enough, you just have to listen. To me, just the way she speaks in different situations, I'm talking tone of voice here, is enough to tell me alot of her personality. I don't have time to do in depth character summary, I hope you get the idea. Unless you're talking about her past experiences, you barely delve into that, just that her father and brother were taken away when she was little. In which case, yes, I agree, she wasn't very developped, I'd like to see more story about her, not just everything she is doing.


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#102 17/7/10 10:38

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Oni 2

Akumu wrote:

Brink is the new multiplayer (Its not a MMO as far as I know) shooter game from Splash Damage [...]
Its main new feature is the SMART (Smooth Movement Across Random Terrain) system that lets you move across the map/level smoothly, while interacting with random obstacles (jump over boxes, climb op walls, slide under lasers).

Aha.  Actually, I do remember reading about that now.  I'd actually been thinking about this topic recently myself.  My thought specifically was that you can't have truly realistic movement in complex terrain in a video game without either a much richer control system than a keyboard and mouse (think full-body mo-cap), or else a "smart" button that you hit, and the character knows what to do.  Although my thought was concerned with animation more than anything: how do you get a character to physically prepare for an action before performing it, to avoid unrealistic "instant movement"?  That's really a separate topic, so I won't get into that here.

Although the SMART button sounds interesting, some of us (such as Loser and myself) have been lamenting that games are becoming more and more auto-piloted.  Melee combat is sometimes reduced to "press the 'fight' button when prompted".  I don't know if games should make more and more complex control schemes, but it would be a shame if we lost all direct control over the character's body.  Seems like projects like Natal are going in another direction, which is capturing your physical movements, but how do you use that scheme to control someone like Konoko as they run and slide?  These are all questions games have to answer as they get more detailed and realistic.

This is the airport on the Ark city, as you can see it uses big concrete pillars and big steel connections in strait lines which look cyberpunk-ish, however they support a high glass roof over the large open space of the airports main hall.
Notice the color scheme is mostly white and blue with yellow accents, this creates a even more spacey feel.
In Oni only executive buildings are colored white, and only on the inside, most of it's grey and dark.
I do believe the grey and dark colors were used to accent the dark future of Oni, however the faded and dirty white might feel more realistic sins it accents past glory.

That art looks nice, although it's not an in-game pic.  But honestly, a lot of the reason Oni's environments fall short is not even design, but sub-par texturing and practically non-existent lighting.  That Brink art is focusing on ambient light and shadow in a very nice way, but if Oni had a dynamic lighting system, we could do that kind of thing easily.  In other words, Oni suffers from dated technology, more than a deliberate style choice that's become dated.

Incidentally, Oni also uses a lot of brown.  Someone asked Hardy about this on our original forum, since pre-beta screenshots used lots of blues and many of those textures were brown in the final game.  He said that they moved away from blues intentionally because they thought blue was over-used for futuristic settings.  I tend to agree with their line of thought, although I don't always like the result.  But I'm not sure what Oni 2 should use in its color palette, and I don't know what it could do to stand out from all the other games that take place in cyber-ruins.

I agree (again) Oni's history is with anime so it should have an anime theme, however the cell shading gives a clean feeling and it looks childish in most cases. [...] However a true anime theme might be nice too, however it seems almost impossible to have the world in anime theme. [...] As you can see the world doesn't look anime like at all, it just looks badly textured.

I so agree with you on this.  I guess I don't know how we can make a game look like animé, but not look cartoony.  I will say that the thick-outline style (Borderlands, XIII...) is the main thing that sets off the "cartoony" alarm in our brains, and that's not even something taken from animé.  And I don't know if it's possible to make a game that really looks like animé because of the cheating involved in animé's shading, and even the basic line art in some cases.

I do think that a big issue here, that game devs are unwilling to acknowledge, is the huge difference in "frame rate".  Animé uses low cel counts, whereas games are striving for 60fps.  It seems to me that if games were less fluid, they'd be able to look more serious when rendered with an illustrative art style.  Animé might use low cel counts for budget reasons, but they've designed the art to work with their limitations.  Similarly, American animators used high cel count to do really cartoony things like squash-and-stretch and anticipation that are a staple of Looney Tunes and Disney.  But it's a completely different approach to physics and movement.  Animé characters are mostly solid and unyielding, which works well with low cel counts but looks weird with fluid animation.  For any fellow Narutards out there, that's why the show is famous for getting all elastic and crazy when they turn the cel count up to 11 during important fight scenes.  It's an intentional choice because they know the usual style won't work under those conditions.  Oy, I could go on and on with this topic....

Also if the world is going to be realistic you can't have cell shaded "dolls" walking around in it.

Absolutely.  Just to clarify what I was talking about in my last post, I wasn't advocating realistically-textured buildings and cartoon people.  I would like to see realistic architecture, structurally, but I don't know how it should be textured or lit.  Should it also be cel-shaded, or should nothing be?  Should environments try to look like animé's matte-painted BGs, or not?  Et cetera.

I did miss some depth about Konoko's personage, they do tell you about her past but you do not really get to know her.  Also her private life is a mystery, what kind of drinks and food does she like, does she have friends outside her work, does she have a fav bar or club?

Yes, Konoko is a tad one-dimensional, but I think that the nature of Oni's story makes it hard to fit in character development because it all happens in 12 days or so.  Oni 2 would probably afford more opportunity to tell us about her as a person.  Also, as you pointed out, she hasn't been able to *be* much of a person working for the TCTF, growing up in their facility.  Oni 2 would let her stretch her wings a bit, presumably.  Maybe a lot, if she ends up in the Wilderness.

For Oni2 It might be nice to continue on the story of Oni (1), Konoko did find out some things but she would probably want to know more. [...] Also she might want to fight the government, because of her fathers findings.

Yes, I'd like to see her try to find her father, and yes, she would probably fight the government, but then again we'd first need to decide what the WCG does post-Crisis, before we know if she would fight it.  Phew, another wall of text.

BTW: Its an honor to have the 100th post. ><

Yeah, but only because you stole it with that double-post tongue


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#103 17/7/10 15:56

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Oni 2

hax.jpg

I dunno about bad texturing. I personally am 100% for Cell Shading over a more realistic theme.

I think cell shading looks "cartoony" depending how it was done. Just like how a more realistic themed model can end up looking ugly, off, blocky, or just wrong.

Like, take for example: ( http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/20 … een040.jpg )

Madworld, which is cell shaded in the style of: ( http://www.barik.net/journalimg/2005-04 … _5_p18.png )

Sin City (The comic, and the movie, to an extent), While that's a horrible comparison shot, I was having trouble finding good pictures from the comic.

Now, compare that to like: ( http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/20 … een002.jpg http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/20 … een001.jpg )

The style of cell shading here is drastically different.


My point of all this: Don't write of cell shading because in some games it doesn't work well. XIII was a bad game regardless of cell shading, which they used just to try and sell more copies, Warsow has anthropomorphic pigs run around shooting each other, also, not a good example.


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#104 17/7/10 16:21

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Oni 2

@Mukade and blood: Sorry, the main issue is that blood physics really _suck_. What looks nice isn't always realistic. smile How would you prefer it worked?


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#105 17/7/10 20:11

Akumu
Member
Registered: 16/7/10

Re: Oni 2

@Mukade:

- Sci-fi/High tech stuff:
Its true the game would look nice with a grungy look, and thats exactly what I was suggesting.
However it does need to have that former glory feeling, the city should look like its past its glory days.
Poorly maintained buildings, rubble in alleyways, bad road works.
It has to look like people don't really care anymore about their city.
Also some parts of the city would be worse than others, the busy city center would be better maintained than the outer parts, which may even become ghettos.

- Real/Cel-Shaded:
Yes Fable is a nice example of balanced cartoon/realism.
It doesn't look to real so it gets that nice fantasy vibe, and yet it looks real enough to not look childish.
However I think the Fable style is to western, we need a eastern (Japanese) looking style.
I think we should think about realistic looking clothes, but for the people themselves a much more cleaner look, anime characters are almost flawless (at least the women) so I think if we make the people look to clean to be true that they might  look anime-ish.

- Konoko's Personality:
My personal idea would be that in Oni2 Konoko would relive some memories and visit places she remembers to find a way to regain her memory.
Also I like the idea for revenge, Konoko vs the government, kick your way through those former colleagues of the TCTF and show the world what filthy secrets the government is hiding from them.


@Iritscen:

- SMART button:
Key combinations might be the answer, SMART+Space could be a jumping over object action.
I agree about the auto pilot thing, but at least for now we are bind to mouse and keyboard.
You could make a game thats controlled by one of those game spheres is which you stand and walk to control your characters movement, and yes if you did that you wouldn't be able to do sliding actions or grab and throw something in a realistic way.
For now full body movement game control will remain in the arcade, as there is no way anyone (except the really rich) could afford to buy a 2m diameter game sphere just to play a game.

- Artwork and styles:
First of all, that artwork was a concept art showing the airport in its glory days.
Here's what it looks like in the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLJbe7WkeqQ
As you can see its glory days are over, it has been abandoned and vandalized.
This is a good representation of what I think Oni2 would look like, it might also clear up the grungy feeling I was talking about.
Instead of painting everything in a depressing gray or brown, paint it the way it would look like when it was new and than weather it, vandalize it, and rub lots of dirt on it.
In the same movie you can see the SMART system at work, think about the possibilities: surprising your enemies with a well timed jump over a wall and kick their asses or run away through a with rubble filled alleyway if their numbers are to big.
Back to the color issue: The colors depend on the trends for when the building was build.
Modern trends include lots of bright colors and white.
Why White?: because white reflects light a room colored white will be light and thus create the feeling of space.
The darker a color gets the more light it absorbs and thus the less light it reflects back into a room, turning a room dark and making it appear smaller.
Modern architecture is often focussed on space, this is just because of trends and generation things I don't really understand why but the modern men wants space.
We all agree that the world of Oni2 will have to look gloomy and grungy, however I don't think coloring it with dark colors will give the desired effect.

- Anime style game:
I think the only way to make a true anime style game is by going way back to early 3D like Doom, which isn't really 3D but just 2D represented in such a way so it looks and feels like 3D.
To make an anime looking game on the Doom engine should be easy sins you can just draw everything and everything would look anime like.

However 3D is anime's worst nightmare, think about those awful series that sport both 2d conventional anime and 3d computer animations.

So I might suggest that in order to preserve the anime look in a 3d game, we cheat.
Instead of conventional anime we use the next best thing as reverence, Japanese animation movies, especially Final Fantasy (the spirit within / advent children).
It looks realistic but also has an anime feel.

Conventional anime: http://www.crowdmanage.com/wp-content/u … urcing.jpg
Final fantasy Advent children (Sometimes called anime but it isn't, its a animation movie): http://www.reezu.com/movies/Mov_Thumbna … u_4536.jpg

- Konoko spreading her wings:
It would be good for Konoko to try new thing now that she's "free".
However she was oppressed for most of her life so we wouldn't know how she's going to react to her new found freedom.
I think we should bind her wings a bit by forcing her into a certain direction, F.I. trying to regain her memory to save something or someone F.I. her father.
It we let her have to much freedom the game might end up being rated 18+. ><


@Gumby:

- Blood:
Yes blood spatters in games look mostly unrealistic.
If you shoot someone in the arm, it wouldn't splatter a pint full of blood across the wall, more like a spoon full.
So it depends how realistic you want a game to be.
We already established that "Extreme" gore will not be an option, unless you make it optional, ><.



Man these posts are long, It took me a while to read through everything that was posted sins this morning.
Maybe I should not have rambled on like that....

... Oh oops I did it again. ><

Last edited by Akumu (17/7/10 20:21)

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#106 17/7/10 20:25

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Oni 2

While it isn't really cel shading, you should check out some mirror's edge gameplay. The way the environments are designed and textured (along with the superb engine) is great.


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#107 17/7/10 20:57

Akumu
Member
Registered: 16/7/10

Re: Oni 2

Yeah I really like that style and the fluent movement of that game.
Oni2 should really strive to get that kind of fluent game-play, and the style for the characters might work, the buildings in Oni2 should be a bit more worn down though.

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#108 17/7/10 21:41

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Oni 2

Oh jeez Jon God, I don't think I could take that kind of graphics, it does NOT fit the mood of Oni  yikes

Thats gonna give me nightmares >_<

@Blood - Your right, not much we can do about physics, but what would be nice is blood spray when you shoot someone, so if you shoot someone through the head against a wall, you get a nice spray of blood on the wall behind, or in the arm or something, not those giant chunks that come out using AE, no offense, you did what you could smile
Also, the blood coming out in melee combat is a bit surrealistic, there wont be that much blood in melee combat, maybe a bit dripping from nose and mouth but other than that...

@Anime/Realistic: Well actually I think SeverD textures did a good job of the sort of models I would want to see. The updated Konoko face looks great. Two things on top of that tho, moving mouths and smoother body. The mouths never move which bugs me... and the bodies look very boxy, maybe a higher poly count and some tweaking would fix that, but with the current engine we cant do it. In an Oni2, it would look great though


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#109 17/7/10 21:48

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Oni 2

I'll just say that I agree with the statements about how Oni 2 should look, although it can be a little discouraging seeing gorgeous games like Brink and wondering what Oni 2 would have to offer that would be worth the work.  Was I even seeing shafts of light in that Ark airport?  That's some ridiculously nice lighting.

Akumu wrote:

In the same movie you can see the SMART system at work, think about the possibilities: surprising your enemies with a well timed jump over a wall and kick their asses or run away through a with rubble filled alleyway if their numbers are to big.

I'm not a very cynical person, but I have to say, that video basically shows the character jumping over a railing, and then grabbing a doorway and pulling himself over it.  So, they've re-invented the jump and the ledge-grab and put them in one button >.<  No doubt useful for the purpose of keeping the control scheme simple for consoles, but I don't see how that deserves a lot of fanfare.

I mean, it pretty much goes without saying that ledge-grabbing would be in Oni 2, and we'd probably just naturally use that button to allow things like hurdling over low objects just because it makes sense, so I don't know that the SMART system is really all that inspiring.

I think the only way to make a true anime style game is by going way back to early 3D like Doom, which isn't really 3D but just 2D represented in such a way so it looks and feels like 3D.

Hmm, 2D sprites in 3D games pretty much went the way of the dodo in the late '90s, and they're not really even practical in a TP game where the camera can move and change the height from which you see your player character.

Instead of conventional anime we use the next best thing as reverence, Japanese animation movies, especially Final Fantasy (the spirit within / advent children). It looks realistic but also has an anime feel.

Sure, there's some vague animé stylings there, but the FF movies are basically realistic.  Look at the smooth shading on the face, the little details like wrinkles in the lips.  They're going for photo-realism.  When you see it in motion, you can also tell that they use mo-cap.  So I don't even know if I agree that it has an animé feel.  It doesn't use minimalism in detail and shading, and it doesn't use exaggerated kinetics and expressions.

Sorry if I seem disagreeable throughout this post, maybe it's just because I'm past my bedtime smile


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#110 17/7/10 22:05

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Oni 2

Mukade wrote:

Oh jeez Jon God, I don't think I could take that kind of graphics, it does NOT fit the mood of Oni  yikes

Thats gonna give me nightmares >_<


Which picture are you referring to?


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#111 17/7/10 22:11

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Oni 2

The one actually on your post, not the linked ones.


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#112 18/7/10 1:50

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Oni 2

It actually surprises me that not more people think Oni should be cell shaded.


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#113 18/7/10 6:13

TOCS
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 4/4/07

Re: Oni 2

I think a cel-shaded Oni would be cool! Especially because the characters would fit their avatars. But it should be optional by mod or something like that.

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#114 18/7/10 6:17

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Oni 2

I like that cel-shaded Konoko, actually.  I don't know that the style suits the game, but that technique really looks nice with VR's textures.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#115 18/7/10 15:53

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Oni 2

One thing that I though of when you brought up making things look more realistic.

I think personally, that would bring me out of the experience a lot more. Seeing realistic looking character shout "Striker slam!" "Ten Shadow Punch!" Would probably defeat any 'realistic' feeling the look would give.


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#116 18/7/10 17:39

Akumu
Member
Registered: 16/7/10

Re: Oni 2

Yeah with a realistic style the combat has to get more realistic too.
So if you make a realistic looking game the arcade style fight moves will have to be altered to some more realistic moves.

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#117 18/7/10 20:25

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Oni 2

I wouldn't necessarily mind that, either.  I suppose the "shouting out attack names" thing is supposed to come from animé, but it's not like all animé does that.  If Oni 2 has a more mature storyline than Oni 1, then it should also do away with "Devil Spin Kick" etc.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#118 18/7/10 21:45

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Oni 2

wow is it Keenly possible for this post to keenly be longer? keenrobably! (sorry none of u get the reference sad )
and as for the cel-shaded model looks great it might look cartoony or out of place but it is possible to give it more detail like emotions kinda Like Windwaker and Punch-Out!!!! adds a lot of detail without much waste in realistic models
And welcome Akumu! enjoy ur stay


Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!

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#119 18/7/10 21:57

Akumu
Member
Registered: 16/7/10

Re: Oni 2

@oxe161:
Yes my posts are long, it's just because I'm so Keen about the idea of an Oni2.

- "sorry none of u get the reference"
They should, if any of them are real gamers ><

And thanks I'm enjoying my stay a lot.

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#120 19/7/10 0:44

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Oni 2

No, I don't get the reference, and I've been playing games all of my life. Am I now demoted to being just "casual"? yikes


Iritscen: roll
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#121 19/7/10 0:59

GlenP
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 8/12/09

Re: Oni 2

Iritscen wrote:

... the "shouting out attack names" thing is supposed to come from animé, but it's not like all animé does that....

why not add a couple new named attacks like "Judo Chop!" and "Hiii-yah!"

apologies to Austin Powers and Miss Piggy (and everyone else).

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#122 19/7/10 1:53

Akumu
Member
Registered: 16/7/10

Re: Oni 2

@Gumby:
Sorry about the "real gamers" thing, I forgot about the fact that I'm old and many of you might not know oldschool games, because your young.

BTW the reverence was to my avatar ><

Last edited by Akumu (19/7/10 1:55)

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#123 19/7/10 2:31

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Oni 2

Well at least tell me the game. hmm


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
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#124 19/7/10 5:08

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Oni 2

'Tis Commander Keen, right?  Never really played the games, but I know of them.  Kudos to oxe for knowing that since he's one of our younger members.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#125 19/7/10 15:07

Phydur
Member
Registered: 13/1/07

Re: Oni 2

dange beat me to the punch Iritscen. I was hopping I would be the first to name it. oh well.
but yeah, it is indeed Commander Keen.

Last edited by Phydur (19/7/10 15:12)


I intentionally spell dang, dange, FYI.

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