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#1 25/1/08 11:32

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Improving Oni's TXMPs

I thought this deserved a new thread after it was touched on by geyser when he talked about things that we can do in the next seven months.

I have some very preliminary questions to see how practical it is to "upscale" the TXMPs, so that Oni's textures are sharper.

1. I exported all TXMPs using OniSplit -- they're in Targa format.  Is that the native format?  I mean, they weren't recompressed or anything when they were exported, right?

2. I already kind of got an answer on this, but I want to be clear: what is the maximum texture size in Oni?  Many textures are 64x64, some are 128x128, and some go as far as 256 pixels in one direction or another.  I have only looked quickly at many of them, but I don't see any bigger TXMPs.  The "Mission Failed" screens are even chopped up into 6 pieces, presumably because they have to fit within the 256x256 pixel limit.

   I am categorizing the TXMPs to see how much work there really is.  Some TXMPs are not even used in-game, and others are just blank white (for masking purposes, I think).  The hardest ones unquestionably will be the character textures.  After that, most hard will be the wall/floor textures.  After that are the diagrams and signs that can easily be recreated with a line-drawing tool or a text tool at higher sizes.  Also, the effects TXMPs will be easy to upscale if they are replaced by stock effects.

   Also, if 256 pixels is the max. dimension for a TXMP, then we can skip a lot of TXMPs that are already that big or 128x128.  It's the 64 pixel TXMPs that look the worst these days.  We can skip things that don't need to be upscaled, like talking heads, and textures that look all right because they're so simple, and focus on the ugliest ones first.  I will take a swing in the next week or so at improving a handful of TXMPs like doors and walls, and if they come out all right, perhaps I will try this out as a project until the Edition comes out.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#2 25/1/08 11:59

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Iritiscen:

1) There is an issue with Mono on the Mac which prevents OniSplit from exporting the files as .png.
2) According to geyser 256x256 is the maximum texture size.

Check out Neo's page at  http://wiki.oni2.net/User_talk:Neo at the bottom of the page he has released OniSplit 0.8.10 which can import TXMPs.  I will test it out later today.

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#3 25/1/08 19:07

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Just curious, whathappens if you stick in a bigger file?

I'd like to help with this...

---

EDIT: OW MY EYES...

Oni has bad texture filtering...or something...

I tried to use this for a wall texture, and when I looked at it on the side, I got a headache, the pixels kept changing, all grainy ARG

Last edited by Gumby (25/1/08 19:39)


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#4 25/1/08 23:01

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Just curious, whathappens if you stick in a bigger file?

Oni crashes!

How does your texture look in game?  Also, make sure you made a repeating texture.

Last edited by EdT (25/1/08 23:14)

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#5 26/1/08 0:10

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

As I said before, horrible! Straight on, it looks great, but from the side...headache city...let me try a less fancy texture...

What type of texture filtering does Oni use? I'm guessing Bilinear at most...

Also, I use OniUnpacker...is that ok?

---

Aha! I have figured out the solution...use "fuzzy" textures...like this one. For walls at least tongue otherwise the sharp lines will go all jaggedy

Last edited by Gumby (26/1/08 0:33)


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#6 26/1/08 0:46

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Also, I use OniUnpacker...is that ok?

That's fine, but the only question is how to share your textures? I suppose one way is to name the texture exactly as the name of the TXMP you are replacing, except for the extension which would be .jpg. Then we would have to convert it ourselves, either using OUP or OniSplit.

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#7 26/1/08 0:51

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

yeah

...and dont forget to MIP map...

In a few minutes I'll have sexy new Oni screenshots

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/gumbyWA/

Not all of them came out like I wanted...the outer wall texture needs a texture that was made for a 1:2 aspect ratio...instead of a normal square texture I cropped...and the stairwell...I don't know what happened...

The concrete texture is sexy though! It needs a bit of retouch to turn the texture all the same brightness, but other than that, it is smooth...

(this is all stuff i found on google tongue)

Last edited by Gumby (26/1/08 1:38)


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#8 26/1/08 11:38

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

gumby: Nice, now what are the names of the textures you changed?

I replaced TXMPPOSTER1.oni with a photo of a car at 256x256 resolution as a test.

Can you imagine how Oni will look once we can update all the small 64x64 textures to 256x256!
attachment.php?item=209&download=1

Last edited by EdT (26/1/08 14:41)

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#9 26/1/08 13:30

Tantir
Member
From: Cracow
Registered: 10/6/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Nice idea. New TXMP make ONI fresh. wink And car in the Airport is very interesting wink

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#10 26/1/08 14:11

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Ahh...WH_ASPHALT WH_SCUM (or something) WH_SIDEWALK and something esle...can't quite remember, I'm at my mom's work right now...

EDIT: I found the inport/export feature in OUP...:D

Anyways, does anyone know a good program to convert to SVG and then back again?

Last edited by Gumby (26/1/08 17:30)


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#11 28/1/08 9:45

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

It's nice to see the enthusiasm for this subject since I left the forum before the weekend.

Here's what I was busy doing over the weekend: I exported all TXMPs (excluding animations) and categorized them and assessed them.  We're certainly looking at quite an endeavor, but with a few people working at it simultaneously, and focusing on what's needs work the most, we could probably improve 75% of what would really benefit the game by being upscaled.

Here's the nitty-gritty breakdown by category:

Architecture
~30 items; these could benefit the game if upscaled; medium difficulty.

Ceilings & Roofs
~30 items; least important to improve; how often do you look up? Easy to upscale.

Characters
~700 TXMPs.  Hardest work, but big benefit would come from upscaling.

Controls & Consoles
~90 items, semi-difficult.

Doors
~110 items, fairly easy to upscale, and would definitely make a difference, since they're always right in front of you.

Effects
~170 items, many easy, others can come from stock effects CDs.  This category may not be accurately represented, as OniSplit seems to have stripped the animations, so I don't really know how many TXMPs I'm looking at here.

Environment
16 items, should be easy to find real-life photos that work well.  (Sunsets and clouds.)

Filler
~20 items.  Don't know what these are; not easy to upscale, but how important are they?  Probably not very.

Floors, Stairs & Ground
~120 items, moderately difficult, definitely important to upscale.

Furniture
16 items, moderately difficult.

Glass
~50 items, very easy to upscale. Would be nice to make unbreakable glass distinguishable from breakable.

Lights
~60 items, should be very easy to upscale.  Worth it?

Mechanical
~200 items, fairly difficult.

Pictures
~80 items, no need to upscale.  (Things such as images of Konoko's moves that are unlocked in her diary.)

Signs, Symbols & Terminal Displays
~160 items, but easy to upscale and probably important.  Terminal displays are all 64x64, which is why they look so crappy.

Talking Heads
62 items.  No need to upscale.

Title & Failure Screens
4 images in slices; no upscaling necessary, right?

UI Elements
~70 items; probably no need to upscale.

Unknown
~40 items; a few are probably important to upscale, but many are just dots and bits of stuff that needs no upscaling.

Walls & Fences
~230 items, would certainly benefit from upscaling, moderate difficulty.

Weapon Textures
~50 items, fairly important to upscale, moderate difficulty.

------------
If we are going to take this on, we should set priorities, and then divvy up the work.  As an example, if we decided that floors and walls were a priority, we would each pick a range of textures to work on within that category.  Smaller categories could be assigned to one person.  Certainly we need to be organized or we will be tripping all over each other.

So step 1, I think, is simply agreeing on what TXMPs go in what category.  Without that, we won't be able to organize.  And frankly, I can't figure out what some things are, and others I'm probably wrong about.  So here's my suggestion: work on whatever suits you at the moment, and I will shortly upload all the TXMPs by category to an album that we can all view.  If you disagree with a categorization, you can move it.  Then we set priorities and divvy up and start the work for real.  In the meantime, make sure you keep track of whatever random TXMPs you improved.

How does that sound?  I know the importance of approaching these large projects carefully and professionally.  Also, I am 50% through coding an AppleScript that replaces TXMPs with modded ones.  This will only benefit Mac users, but the project is still doable without this tool.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#12 28/1/08 9:59

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Wow, you had an Oni filled weekend doing all that research!

I'll try to help with the textures, once we get the TXMP importer working.

Last edited by EdT (28/1/08 10:15)

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#13 28/1/08 10:23

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Between the TXMP thing, the AppleScripting, the Edition testing, and the tracework, yes, much of my free time is Oni-related these days.

That reminds me, I have feedback on the Edition and a small update to Karate Konoko to upload.

Okay, I have some questions:

How can I know where a TXMP is being used?  Say I'm looking at "TXMPBlueGoatFur102.oni" (yes, I made that up).  Is there a way to check for references in Oni to that TXMP to know what level uses it and what object in that level uses it?

What do you all think about making unbreakable glass distinguishable from breakable glass?  It annoys me that the glass is so similar or identical.  We could make unbreakable glass TXMPs (they are marked as such in their names) have black lines running through them, like reinforced glass with that wire grid in it.  That way I don't waste time trying to shoot or kick out unbreakable glass.  How does that sound?

Last edited by Iritscen (28/1/08 10:39)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#14 28/1/08 11:56

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

To figure out what level it goes in, I usually open up the origonal .oni files and the new level0.dat. Find the thing you want to replace and A. Filter by name or B. Just search though by hand, taking advantage of the sorting features


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#15 29/1/08 15:14

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Okay, I will have to try that.

For now, I'd just like to announce that all the TXMPs from Oni (aside from animations) are here: http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff17 … 20Project/

Peruse the list to get a feel for what we're up against if we want to try to upscale the textures.  Keep in mind we only have to do whatever we want to, and some TXMPs don't really need improvement or won't make a difference in-game.  If you find anything misfiled, let me know, but I'll be reviewing them myself in the next day or two.  What are you guys' thoughts on which kinds of textures need the most work?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#16 29/1/08 15:33

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Iritscen: Wow, that's a lot of work you did to organize all the TXMP, thanks.

But now with the issue of reflectivity, for Mac users there are no .dds plugins for Photoshop. sad

Last edited by EdT (29/1/08 15:38)

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#17 29/1/08 16:06

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

@ Iritscen: Just when did it become legal to upload all of a game's textures as an online gallery?
I mean, you did awesome work and all but as for the photobucketing, I have my quiet doubts...

@ EdT: Reflectivity can be handled with any format that supports alpha channels. TGA is fine.
I'm using DDS because I've been importing via OUP so far, and OUP needs the mipmaps...
AFAIK, though, the Gimp runs on the Mac, and there should be DDS tools and/or plugins, too.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#18 29/1/08 17:30

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

geyser: Thanks for the clarification.  Neo's OniSplit using TGA does extract the alpha channel, so we will be able to work on the textures with Photoshop. smile

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#19 30/1/08 10:23

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

geyser wrote:

@ Iritscen: Just when did it become legal to upload all of a game's textures as an online gallery?
I mean, you did awesome work and all but as for the photobucketing, I have my quiet doubts...

I don't see it being a problem.  I mean, if the album was huge or got a lot of traffic it might attract their attention, but neither is the case (34MB for the entire account, if you can believe it).  Like YouTube, Photobucket works on the principle of not acting until they receive a report of IP infringement.  So, in short, I won't tell if you don't.

Btw, it's really hard to tell some wall textures from floor textures, so there's probably a lot of mix-ups.  I'm thinking of combining the sub-albums, since it's really the same either way.  Both need work about equally bad.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#20 30/1/08 13:03

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

"Like YouTube, Photobucket works on the principle of not acting until they receive a report of IP infringement."
You were much more paranoid about the Oni IP last time I checked. You know, one year of silence, all that...


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#21 30/1/08 13:35

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Mostly out of respect for someone else.  Loose lips sink ships (or cost people their jobs).  Also, journalists don't give sources because if they did, the sources would never come forward in the future.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#22 30/1/08 14:21

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Whatever. Whether or not there are people's jobs at stake here, I'd replace the online catalog with a local tool that would only work for legal Oni owners.
Not much of a problem now, but in the long term I'd just avoid anything that could be held against us. We are supposed to be the nice guys, remember?


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#23 30/1/08 15:04

Fluffy
Member
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

You know you can password protect Photobucket albums, right? It's obviously not foolproof, but the online catalogue is quite handy. You could do things like mark images that have been improved already, perhaps by adding appropriate titles to them.

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#24 30/1/08 15:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Yeah, that's a good idea, Fluffy.  I think I'll do that within a day, and publish the password here for our own use.  And yes, one of the purposes to the catalog is to mark what's been worked on.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#25 30/1/08 16:09

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Improving Oni's TXMPs

Late reply to Gumby about anisotropic filtering. Oni doesn't do any AFAIK.
(although you still may be able to force AF, depending on your GFX card)
The lack of AF could become quite a problem with higher-res textures...
It doesn't feel very good to "fuzzify" the textures just because of the AF.

About the password - go ahead, but I'd work with SVN-synced patches.
For example, I don't distribute any TXMP at all with the Edition: patches.

If you do some completely new textures, you can always upload those.
So if a texture is not online, that means it hasn't been revamped. Easy.

Last edited by geyser (30/1/08 16:12)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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