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#1 01/22/08 18:01

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 12/21/07

Daodan Speculation

since the Muro thread has gotten far enough their tongue

Anyone notice that Symbiotes tend to have yellow eyes?
Muro and Mai I can see as a result of being bro/sis, but Barabas appears to have yellow eyes as well. Well, a yellow EYE. The other one looks like it atrophied or something. Possible clue to Barabas being implanted with a copy of Muro's Chrysalis?

On that topic, it was only said that they made two prototype chrysali based on Mai and Muro. They didn't (or so Kerr says) plan to implant them. They, however, did eventually as we all know.
Is it essential, then, that a chrysali be based on the hosts DNA?
Kerr calls it a hyper evolved clone of the host. That definition seems to lend credence to that.

Or, it could be a case of maximum compatability. The syndicate probably figured as much from Hasegawa's notes and gave Muro his chrysali, whereas I can easily see Griffin drilling the info out of Kerr and deciding Mai was his best option as a host.

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#2 01/22/08 19:01

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Daodan Speculation

I'm not sure about the color of Mai's eyes (all the less so as I'm colorblind). Aren't they mostly green rather than yellow?
It's hard (for me at least) to see the color of Muro's eyes, too. As for Barabas, it's the whole eyeball that's yellow, I'd say.

I think implanting a Chrysalis to anyone but the donor would pose the same problems as graft rejection, only more so.
Of course, the "unintended" host could be massively sedated, but I can't see why one would go to such extra trouble...


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#3 01/22/08 19:01

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 08/29/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

I don't like how everyone automatically assumes that Barabas and Mukade have Chrysalises.


Work in progress...

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#4 01/22/08 20:01

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Daodan Speculation

I don't like how people automatically assume I assume anything in particular ^_^
I like to allow for contradictory theories. Oh, wait, maybe you didn't mean me...

"everyone automatically assumes that Barabas and Mukade have Chrysalises"

Barabas has an uncommon regeneration ability. And Mukade has this tirade:
"We writhe inside as we are torn apart to make way for what we will become"
Insofar as Konoko has a Chrysalis for sure, that one is anything but small talk.

Last edited by geyser (01/22/08 20:01)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#5 01/22/08 20:01

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 08/29/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Evidence, good, thanks. ^_^ I too am of the opinion that Mukade has a Chrysalis, though I'm not sure there's enough evidence to be certain of that. Barabas, however, I don't think of as a Daodan symbiote. He's simply the most powerful Elite Striker there is. His having a highly evolved Daodan Chrysalis would therefore imply that weaker Elite Strikers have less-evolved Chrysalises, which I think it's fair to assume is not the case, judging by the sheer cost that would entail and the fact that Muro wants as many Chrysalises as he has to sell to the people who aren't living safely in the mountains after STURMANDERUNG takes place. Barabas' regenerative ability should be passive as Konoko's is if it's an effect of the Chrysalis: you don't turn the Chrysalis on and off at will.


Work in progress...

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#6 01/22/08 20:01

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 12/21/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

>>G:
I'm partially color blind (and I want to go into art. Ironic.), so it could be more green than yellow in reality. hmm
Regardless, that shade of yellow/green seems to pop up quite a bit. I wonder what Mukade's eyes are like under that shell?

As for rejection, we never are told that a chrysalis NEEDS to be a genetic match to the host. In the wiki Barabas page, it is said that not fully embracing the Daodan and not letting it roam entirely free limits its capacity. Perphaps mismatching can still work, but not as effectively?

As for the why: The Syndicate wants weapons. I doubt the sort of people who would make Deadly Brains, Screaming Cells and Tankers would feel any remorse for making anyone suffer.

>>U:
Barabas has a striking resemblance to Imago Muro. He has all the major thematic features -- white skin, purple 'veins' and horn.
He could, also, be a unique experiment. The wiki has a good bit about his name etymology wich also supports an experimental origin.
If Barabas is in anything resembling Imago by the time(s) Mai pounds him into paste, it would seem the experiment failed.
In addition to regeneration, only he and Mai can operate the WMC wich requires superhuman strength to lift or fire.
The only other alternative is massive cyborgization -- replacing the arms and upper body.
He also glows in a rather Daodan-esque manner when he regens.

As for Mukade, their is the speech. Then you have to factor in the fact he is physically able of standing toe to toe with a Daodan host, the teleportation and the Devilstar.
And outside the fight, their is Mai's ability to 'sense' him. She says she can feel him, taste his fustration. While this empathic sense is never elaborated on again, it does make sense. When the chrysalis begins upgrading the hosts brain, it might just up how much of her brainpower Mai can use. I've heard many speculate that so called 'psychic' abilities stem from a more harnessed brain.

I wonder how Hasegawa got the inspiration for the Daodan. Or where the name comes from...

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#7 01/22/08 21:01

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 08/29/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

The problem with Barabas having a Chrysalis is the potential of a Chrysalis for uncontrollable hyper-evolution. Mukade seems to be a bit more of a freelancer: he's still a member of the Syndicate and Muro's master assassin, but he appears to be doing what he does for reasons other than loyalty to Muro (perhaps fear of Muro, payment, or the simple realization that the Syndicate is going to be the winning side in the war). Thus, it seems possible Mukade outfitted himself with a Chrysalis (or had his own personal scientists do the deed) after he stole one, possibly one created during Kerr's early experimentations under Griffin's watch. There are lots of other ways he could've gotten it, too. The problem I have with the idea of Barabas having one is that he's more directly under Muro's control, and Muro wouldn't let anyone under him have the potential to surpass him. Cyborg upgrades and the like are controllable; the Chrysalis is not.


Work in progress...

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#8 01/22/08 22:01

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Daodan Speculation

"I wonder how Hasegawa got the inspiration for the Daodan. Or where the name comes from..." Will we ever know? smile

"Perhaps mismatching can still work, but not as effectively?" Maybe, but I tend to think compatibility is a must.
Monitoring the smart cancer that is the Chrysalis already requires a ton of equipment and a league of scientists.
Implanting the "tumor" to a host different from the donor could only make the process more complex and nasty.
I'm not ruling out that thesis, though. Barabas is definitely a spiritual son for Muro, so why not a "part of Muro"?

"As for the why:" The trouble is essentially with the monitoring. Barabas is yet another prototype, after all...

"I too am of the opinion that Mukade has a Chrysalis, though I'm not sure there's enough evidence to be certain of that."
Brilliant. I too am of the opinion that we should preserve ambiguity whenever possible. Join the "Ambiguation Club" smile

"The problem with Barabas having a Chrysalis is the potential of a Chrysalis for uncontrollable hyper-evolution."
Like VidBoi7, I do tend to see Barabas as a harnessed Imago. Imago because of the looks, harnessed because he's still human.
Something is keeping him from becoming Barzilla. As for what that would be, there are at least two possibilities: VB's and "mine".
Either the Chrysalis somehow can't assimilate his brain (my theory), or the host is not the same as the donor, or something else.
Either way, he'd be a living experiment for a less over-the-top Daodan, e.g., intended for generic implantation. Details unknown.

"Barabas' regenerative ability should be passive as Konoko's is if it's an effect of the Chrysalis: you don't turn the Chrysalis on and off at will."
Konoko and Muro have their overpower, Mutant Muro has his telekinesis and shield, Mukade has his array of gimmicks. ON. OFF. ON. OFF. ON.

"His having a highly evolved Daodan Chrysalis would therefore imply that weaker Elite Strikers have less-evolved Chrysalises"
It's unusual for you to use such sophism. Barabas being Muro's pet Daodan wouldn't imply anything about the rest of the Elite.

"Cyborg upgrades and the like are controllable; the Chrysalis is not." Good premise for wrong conclusions.
"Muro wouldn't let anyone under him have the potential to surpass him" And that's the other good premise.

"Thus, it seems possible Mukade outfitted himself with a Chrysalis (or had his own personal scientists do the deed)"
Mukade's autonomy is what makes him all the less tolerable if he becomes a rival in terms of Daodan symbiosis...
Also, you paint Mukade's interests as rather obscure, so it's not like Muro would find comfort in a "live and let live".

"There are lots of other ways he could've gotten it, too." Chrysalises stolen from Kerr would be clones of Mai's.
Kerr is never mentioned growing extra Chrysalises at the TCTF, let alone Chrysalises from 100% new donors.
Either genetic matching is not crucial (and I think we both think it is), or Mukade's Chrysalis is his very own.
I'm still very comfortable with Mukade being Muro's peer or tutor: Daodan and mutual tolerance explained.
As for who that peer would be, available theories are father (Hasegawa) or surrogate father (whoever)...
There has to be some bond between them that justifies respect and trust. Otherwise they're pure rivals.

"The problem I have with the idea of Barabas having one is that he's more directly under Muro's control"
An outright favorite pet is less likely to rebel, and incidentally much easier to monitor or advise... or kill.
Note: there is a strong bond here as well (this time it's Muro being Barabas's tutor and surrogate father).
However, it's also remarkable that Barabas is quite inferior to Muro or Mai (and Muro probably knows it).
Barabas is pictured as reverent towards Muro, like a good disciple that hasn't outgrown his master yet.

But then, what about Mukade? If he is a master for Muro, in how far has Muro outgrown him, if at all?
If Muro is aware of having outgrown his master, couldn't that undermine the mutual respect and trust?
What would it mean (if anything) that Mai was able to defeat Muro's master before moving on to Muro?

Heh, looks like me bringing up my old demons again, and an argument with U479 coming up.
Perhaps it'll be wise for me to retire and let VB7 duke it out by himself. His thread, after all...

Last edited by geyser (01/22/08 23:01)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#9 01/23/08 00:01

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 12/21/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Half the speculation is bouncing off each other. Otherwise I'd just make an essay and slap it down somewhere. tongue

Did a wiki search. Apparently, Daodan is chinese for missle. No idea their, except the fact of the weapon connection.
It sounds like something I'd hear in greek antiquity, the way its pronounced.

Did find this, tho:

Renegade scientist Bertram Navarre discovered a way to 'retask' cells, making it possible to reshape bodies without having to worry about organ integrity
One experiment consisted of successfully splitting the spinal column of a research subject by 'telling' the cells between the two severed halves to serve as nerve linkages.
Unfortunately, he was obsessed with seeing how far this discovery could be pushed and was prepared to perform ghastly experiments on human captives he had bought from the Syndicate.
Procedure:
Civilian refugees from a pleasure boat outing narrowly escaped mercenary pirates from Navarre's island laboratory and reached TCTF authorities.
A full-scale raid of his island facilities was mounted and the lab installations were destroyed, but Navarre's body was never recovered.

Two things come to mind:
Bertram was Hasegawa operating under an alias (or being differently named in the databanks to prevent anyone -- Mai included -- from discovering The Truth). In his obsession, it would seem plausible for him to approve of testing on captured civilians. Not sure how Kerr would have handled it. And his fate is conveniantly left open.

Or Bertram laid the foundation for the Daodan.
It sounds very similar. Mutation without disrupting the delicate balance of the human body. The only difference is that it would seem Bertram loaded the cells with a fixed program -- split the spinal column, for example. It has a sequence of steps it carries out to the letter.
The Daodan has no fixed programming -- aside from aiding the host as best as possible. And then, we dont have much in the way of solid proof that it follows a rigid set of steps.
Kerr says he didn't know what would happen as the Daodan progressed, so that does make sense...

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#10 01/23/08 01:01

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 09/01/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

yeah, i remember seeing that, that theory sounds good, especially since the TCTF would skew what "Navarre" did.

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#11 01/23/08 10:01

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Daodan Speculation

The japanese word "dan" means degree and level and "dôdan" is related to the notions of elevation and upgrade.
Here's some etymological stuff that didn't make it to the wiki: http://oni.bungie.org/forums/index.php?threadid=39

"The only difference is that it would seem Bertram loaded the cells with a fixed program" That's important, indeed.
I don't think Navarre has much to do with the Daodan project, even if there are similarities (totipotent cells, etc)...


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#12 01/23/08 16:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Yeah, Navarre could have been the Syndicate's best chance at developing super-soldiers before the Daodan came along.

Just a side question for geyser: seeing as you support ambiguity when it comes to Oni's plot, what would that mean when plotting Oni 2?  I mean, if you revisit any characters from Oni you will need to explain some backstory... that means unambiguating some of the ambiguity, doesn't it?  I mean, you would have to make a choice as to, say, whether Mukade is related to Muro & Mai or not, whether he's Muro's rival, etc.  Assuming he was involved in Oni 2's story.


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#13 01/23/08 19:01

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Daodan Speculation

"that means unambiguating some of the ambiguity, doesn't it?" Yes and no.

First of all, if there's a truth, "players" will arrive at it after a complex quest.
That means there'll be a fair share of false tracks and theories along the way.

Second, there can be a highly non-linear quest with multiple endings/truths.
Every player's final "truth" will depend on the leaps of faith they have taken.

Last but not least, there can be no hard proof about Oni's events in Oni 2.
Testimonies of characters are just as worthless as oh-so-secure data files...
In a cyberpunk-biopunk universe such as Oni's, hardly anything is verifiable.

Concerning bridge characters such as Mukade and Mai: they have changed.

Even if Mukade used to be Hasegawa, he's come a long way since that time.
He has taken some distance with his supposed daughter: dramatically so.
So there can't be a "Mai, I am your father", because that'd be a sheer lie.
He can only say "I used to know your father", thus preserving ambiguity.
It could just as well mean that Oni's Mukade was not, in fact, Hasegawa.
Or that he actually was, but died, and Oni 2's Mukade is an usurpator...
(Mukade can be anyone since we never see his face or hear his voice)
Genetic tests may be conclusive, but they just don't have to happen.

Mai, too, has come a long way and may not feel too nostalgic about it.
Even supposing she has reasons to set on a renewed quest for truth,
(guilt or amnesia or whatever will drive her renewed quest in Oni 2)
the information and informators she'll come across will be scarce.
(if anything, Mai December is sure to reshuffle Oni's society a lot)

What Mai (or the player) will be most preoccupied with is the now.
(interacting with the characters and entities of the post-Oni world)
Quests for identity and such would unfold as a sort of side story.

More specifically, some revelations may occur to Mai in dreams.
These can be Oni's missions seen in a new light, deviations, etc.
Such Daodan flashbacks will typically enlighten or comfort Mai...
However, there is always a chance that they are false memories.
Thus even Mai's convictions are actually of an ambiguous nature.

Last edited by geyser (01/23/08 19:01)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#14 01/23/08 19:01

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 12/21/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Now that I examine closer, your right, Geyser.

The big difference is the fact the Daodan is new matter, whereas Bertram seems to be causing a true mutation via changing the matter that is available. The Daodan is more like a fluid that flows into new crevices when they appear.
I very much doubt it was thrown in that terminal by pure random chance. Somebody planted it their for a reason. Meaning some connection has to exist.
Some relation exists, though what that is is vague.

And if the Oni 2 'Mukade' is Hasegawa, how does distance of both space and time change that? While it probably would be rather cheap and out of character as well, I dont see why it'd be a bold faced lie. Well, genetically, at least.

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#15 01/23/08 20:01

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Daodan Speculation

"how does distance of both space and time change that?" The Daodan has changed them both.
Neither he nor her are truly human now. So the best he can say is "I used to be your father."
EDIT: Not to mention that he'll resent her a bit for killing him and ruining the work of his life.
So the way I see it, he'd be more affectively distant from Mai than Oni's Mukade ever was.

"Some relation exists, though what that is is vague." There are other terminals in that chapter.
More or less recent cases (Flatline Zombies, Hypo Spray addicts... and the Picasso Island).
The plot makes it look like the raid caught someone while flipping through these archives.
They were either shot on the spot or ran for their lives, abandoning their open sessions.
Of course, this doesn't mean Navarre is a totally anecdotal character. Far from it...
For example, he may well have contributed to the technology behind Barabas
(what with the harnessing of the Imago stage by some non-cybernetic means)

This is off-topic, but I'm very keen on adding Flatline Zombies into the Edition, as a hazard.

Last edited by geyser (01/24/08 01:01)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#16 01/24/08 09:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

I have to say that, although I am a literal-minded American (we always like things spelled out for us), I can agree with your answer; Oni 2 would be better off looking forward than dwelling endlessly on what happened in Oni and what was behind it, so in that sense there don't have to be solid answers provided to many of the events in Oni.

And keeping in mind the Dream Diver level, I would say that something similar would definitely be called for in a sequel, once or twice, at least.

geyser wrote:

Not to mention that he'll resent her a bit for killing him and ruining the work of his life.

Or, just breaking his neck and causing him to retreat to the sidelines while he recuperates.  Keep in mind that people survive broken necks all the time.  I'm not a doctor, but I think the only ways a broken neck can kill you are if your windpipe is collapsed by your head being twisted, and you can't move to open the air passage, or if you are so paralyzed that your heart shuts down.  Most of the time, broken necks just mean months in traction.


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#17 01/24/08 11:01

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 12/21/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Or by snapping the neural connections of the spine to the rest of the body.

Anyone have any idea how Overpower mode works?
Its caused by a (then) mundane medical tool, serving to heal by rapidly putting lots of Good Stuff into the persons body. It can't be making the transformation go quicker, b/c it passes over time. It causes a brief reaction in the Daodan body.

And during the final fight with non-imago Muro, he seems capable of going Overpower without hypos. At least, we dont see an anim for it.

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#18 01/24/08 11:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Or by snapping the neural connections of the spine to the rest of the body.

Which is what "paralysis" usually means smile

during the final fight with non-imago Muro, he seems capable of going Overpower without hypos. At least, we dont see an anim for it.

We don't see an animation for Konoko using hypoes either...

I too would like to know how hypoes lead to the Overpower effect, but without having any idea how hypoes work, it's hard to know.  Perhaps when an ordinary person is at full health and uses one, it sheds its healing energies harmlessly and uselessly, but those with a Chrysalis can absorb those energies and hold them for a time....


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#19 01/24/08 16:01

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 08/30/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

You would think that hypos speed up your metabolism in some way, causing quicker healing. When you don't need healing, it probably gives a feeling of hyperaweareness, or in Konoko's case, the Overpower effect. There are other drugs that can speed metabolism.


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#20 01/24/08 19:01

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 12/21/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

>>I: Good point.

according to the manual:
-Stimulants
-Analgesics
-Active neuro-biological reinforcing elements

Stims: Ok, in humans these work by utilizing more of the body that we normally dont as far as I understand. Kinda like adrenaline, in terms of function.
The Daodan body, then, has higher limits and thus reacts more to stimuli? And in different ways?

Analgesics:Pain killer. This could contribute to heightened health -- she's able to plow on harder simply because she doesn't hurt as badly.

ANBRE: Name is meant to be ambiguous and likely reference future medical advances we cant think of yet.
Metabolic enhancement is a possibility. It may even include chemicals that the Daodan body can 'consume' for use in shoring up the musculature.

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#21 01/24/08 20:01

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 08/30/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Active neuro-biological reinforcing elements

That is the healing part of a hypo.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#22 01/24/08 20:01

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 08/29/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

"Active neuro-biological reinforcing elements" makes it sound like hypo use speeds up neural information transfer, possibly by lowering the action potentials throughout the body.


Work in progress...

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#23 01/24/08 20:01

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 08/30/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

That might be it too...but what part of it heals then?


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
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#24 01/24/08 21:01

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 08/29/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Stimulants boost the metabolism. Uberly, of course. Analgesics also do the trick not by healing but by killing the pain of your injuries, which has similar effects in the short-term.


Work in progress...

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#25 01/25/08 11:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Daodan Speculation

Analgesics can also reduce swelling, which speeds recovery.


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