Anniversary Edition Preview

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/03/08 04:02

By the way, do we really need .NET for OniSplit? I'm having problems installing it ...and understanding geyser's instructions for installing edition .

Can someone tell me:

1. What files needs to be in what folder. I'm getting confused by the conflicting instructions listed on Version Ablsoute Zero, and the 'instructions' in AE Preview (namely, which new_deal do I install).
2. I get up to the whole 'commnd prompt at the edition folder' part, but I still don't understand the next part. geyser wrote to run the new_deal.sh in the AE preview, but what is the command to do so?

Mind you, I somewhat understand how to use OniSplit, as I tested it out to extract the Level0_Final.dat files into a seperate folder.

Any and all help is appreciated (and pictured instructions even more so.

Gumby · 02/03/08 04:02

stick "install" in your Oni folder and hit bigdeal (or possibly newdeal, but I always run big just to be sure)

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/03/08 06:02

And big_deal is run with... OniSplit??? If so, how do I do so through Command Script?

The reason why is because my big_deal file actually reads as "big_deal.sh".

Finally, was it just me, did did you have to unzip AE Preview three times just to get to the files? I went from "xedition.TGZ" to "xedtion.TAR" to "zedition.ZIP". Talk about long winded...

geyser · 02/03/08 09:02

ItemfinderDeluxe, the reason for the "conflicting instructions" is that there are two Editions ATM, one for PC and one for the Mac.
Typically, the PC version works right out of the box because I can test it myself, so the troubleshooting talk is about the Mac one.
The names used so far are "xedition" for the Mac (or Linux) and "wedition" for PC Windows. You have a PC - no "xedition" for ya.
As for the tar-gzipped-zip, it was a hack around the weird security settings of OCF at the moment of posting the update for Macs.
You can get the current version as a ZIP for both systems, from here: http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/20080121
Let me say it again: you need the "wedition" thing, not the "xedition" thing. And be sure to read the readme.

As for OniSplit, the shell scripts call it indirectly, so it's the installation scripts that run OniSplit, not the other way round.
We do require .NET at the moment, because it'd be harder to code the thing in a portable way without such a framework.

Last edited by geyser (02/03/08 09:02)

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/03/08 17:02

Well, I downloaded the correct file, and ran the install. Suprisingly, it worked perfectly without needing .NET, and it only took around 20 minutes.

After playing the first few levels through, I do feel that the knockdown damage is a bit 'off'. Frankly at times it's annoying, such as in some of the enclosed areas in Level 2. However, it also has its moments - trying to save the warehouse manager in Level 1 for instance. Half the damage done to the Striker when I played through was done from knockback damage from the manager.

In all honesty, I think the idea of 'staggering' when knocked back is better then 'damage' itself.

Finally, have we compiled a list of the cutscenes with problems involving the dash-hack yet?

geyser · 02/03/08 18:02

"Suprisingly, it worked perfectly without needing .NET, and it only took around 20 minutes."
The time taken depends on a few things, like HDD usage by the other apps you're running.
The installation positively requires .NET to run, so it just means you've installed it after all.

"Finally, have we compiled a list of the cutscenes with problems involving the dash-hack yet?"
No. Then again, the dash-hack is not final (I'll be reverting it for all the Konokos, at least).

"In all honesty, I think the idea of 'staggering' when knocked back is better then 'damage' itself."
Explain. What is better than what, and what features do you suggest we retain for the Edition?

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/03/08 19:02

Okay, what I'm saying is that currently, when character A collides into Character B as a result of an attack (such as a Special ie. Devil Spin Kick), Character B gets knocked back (staggered), and takes damage. So remove the damage, but keep the stagger.

Dash-Hack - So are you able to (temporarily) disable dash-hacks in cutscenes? In some cases, it does affect how the level plays out.

For example, when fighting Muro after not killing Griffin, Griffin runs in with his men to assist Konoko. Of course, due to the dash hack, he runs too far forward, making the cutscene look awkward, as well as greatly increasing the chances of Griffin getting nailed in the crossfire between Konoko and Muro (especially with collision damage being a factor).

geyser · 02/04/08 09:02

"Dash-Hack - So are you able to (temporarily) disable dash-hacks in cutscenes? In some cases, it does affect how the level plays out."
I meant permanently disabling it for the player (assuming he plays as Konoko). As for the rest, there are two ways around the problem.
ai2_movetoflag should work fine with the dash-hack, because the pathfinding AI constantly adapts to where the character currently is.
The problem is with chr_playback, which in many cases can be replaced with a set of ai2_movetoflag and complementary commands.
There's also the possibilty of hacking the messy FILM files, or even generating new ones with Oni's cutscene authoring functionality.
A quick-and-dirty fix is to detect the sprinting animation loop and/or override it with the jogging animation loop (with scripts).

"For example, when fighting Muro after not killing Griffin, Griffin runs in with his men to assist Konoko."
There's a bigger problem in Chapter 5: Muro and his men falling off ramps as they run "on to glory"...

"when character A collides into Character B as a result of an attack (such as a Special ie. Devil Spin Kick)
Character B gets knocked back (staggered), and takes damage. So remove the damage, but keep the stagger."
Do you mean A was knocked down by the DSK, and B was another bystander that wasn't touched by the DSK?
As for the effect of the impact on B, there are two possible effects you seem to mix: knockdown and stagger.
In the event of staggering, B stays on its feet and can't move, block or strike for a certain amount of time.
In the event of a knockdown, B falls forwards or backwards as if hit by a special: that's the "domino" effect.
Are you saying that we should retain both these effects, while eliminating the damage done to B in either case?

Iritscen · 02/04/08 09:02

...The Lariat works great for me. Also, it's not a throw, but throws work for me too, if I make sure that I throw one guy into another. Certainly if you throw a guy to one side, and there another foe right beside you, he's gonna wait until you're vulnerable and nail you, but how is that any different from before?

The only complaints I have now are the previously stated ones, the guy-falling-backwards-for-no-reason-related-to-the-laws-of-physics thing, and the broken fistsoflegend issue. I would add my vote for the use of stagger in place of some of the knockdown reactions. At least, if the guy-falling-backwards thing can't be fixed, a stagger reaction would be preferable there to being dragged down with him.

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/04/08 17:02

Yes, in the scenario Character A is hit by an unblocked DSK, and Character B isn't hit at all. However, Character B is hit by Character A getting knocked back from the attack. However, I've never attempted to try it out, but can you block collision damage? Perhaps if you can't, that could be another option for the damage issue.

geyser · 02/04/08 18:02

Just make a final statement on the way it should behave, whenever you're ready

We can certainly specify the knockdowns to be blockable (not sure if they are already).
However, this won't fix the fistsoflegend and guy-falling-backwards-for-no-reason bugs.

Right now I'm thinking of a fix that just could work in every situation. Food for thought...
Point is, the effect of the knockdown can be anything: not just a stagger or a knockdown.
So we might set it up so that early-time splash damage doesn't hurt or affect you at all...
This solves the above problems because you can only be hit once by the same animation.
If you kick someone and he falls back on you, the game will detect an "empty" collision.
As the guy falls further, he'll starts to deal domino-knockdown splash damage instead.
But since you're already taking "empty" damage from that guy, you won't be affected.

This means you wouldn't get a domino effect if you punch a guy right into another.
There will have to be some space between the guy you hit and the guy behind him.
This more or less responds to U479's point about being able to block knockdowns.

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/04/08 19:02

So let me get this down...

Konoko is facing three strikers, all in a straight line. Striker A is just in DSK range, Striker B is just outside range but standing right behind Striker A, and Striker C is roughly two paces behind Striker A (I'm saying two paces because I believe that is how far someone could fly if hit by a DSK). Konoko performs a DSK, hitting Striker A. Striker A flies backwards, colliding with Striker B and Striker C on the way.

Now from what I believe you say, you are saying that you can make Striker B not take damage (because he was too close to Striker A when said Striker was hit by the DSK), but Striker C will take damage because he was further away.

If that is the case, and it solves the majority of your problems, then use that as your solution.

After all, it will make some of the mods 'less' ridiculous then they are under the Edition system. My majorpoint of reference - Cargo Hangers Arena 2 (everyone spawnng right next to each other + combat awareness = Domino Hell).

Now off topic for a moment. Are you able to give everyone an aerial flip? Just so if we want to play through the missions as someone other than Konoko, Muro, Ninjas or Furies we can make the jumps needed in the game (namely on TCTF HQ and Rooftops to get the LSIs).

geyser · 02/04/08 19:02

"you can make Striker B not take damage (because he was too close to Striker A when said Striker was hit by the DSK)"
Correct. It's a bit as if B and A together had partly blocked Konoko's DSK. B will remain standing; A will fall at B's feet.

"but Striker C will take damage because he was further away." He won't because A will have been blocked by B.
If B hadn't been there, then C would have been knocked down by A if he stood anywhere but right next to A.

"If that is the case, and it solves the majority of your problems, then use that as your solution."
I'm not sure it will work (will have to experiment some), but I rather like the sound of it so far.

"My majorpoint of reference - Cargo Hangars Arena 2" That's not an issue.
OTA spawning people next to one another by lack of flags is a non-issue.
One should merely use chr_location or set up more flags in the OBJC.

"Now off topic for a moment. Are you able to give everyone an aerial flip?"
It's all on-topic. I wouldn't give everybody jump-flips as tall as Konoko's.
If you want, you can always use the camera to teleport to Anywhere(TM)

Last edited by geyser (02/04/08 19:02)

Ultimatum479 · 02/04/08 19:02

If you're all really hooked on fixing rather than scrapping this knockdown business, let me remind you to playtest it throughly on stairs at each step of the way. Stair combat is glitchy enough in Oni, especially with throws; the domino effect has only compounded the problem so far.

I'm gonna be away for a few weeks. See ya all when I get back.

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/04/08 19:02

If you want, you can always use the camera to teleport to Anywhere(TM)

I don't normally play the game on Developer mode, so no uber-camera warping for me:P

Mind you, I'm not concerned if they can't jump-flip like Konoko. I just think it would be nice if they could jump-flip at all. After all, it won't cause many problems with AI, as I haven't seen the AI do a jump-flip at all (maybe Ninjas, but I don't recall even with them). Perhaps you could just use Konoko's flip animation and possibly add it onto the characters?

Of course, that IS a lot of work, especially with all the models and the mucking around with profiles and such...

If you don't think you'd be able to, then don't worry about it. It's only a secondary issue for me.

geyser · 02/04/08 20:02

@U479: Point taken, but you're forgetting we've been fixing throw ranges and such. Are you sure the overall effect is more frustrating than before?
I mean, no one seems to have noticed how Loser fixed the exaggerated throw ranges. Did you? Don't these make stair fights a bit less awkward?
BTW, more generally (and I know you'll come back to me on that one), "stair combat" is "glitchy enough" in real life, too, "especially with throws".
Oni's combat system is obviously tailored for a clear, even ground, and it's not unexpected that it should meet its limits on slopes and stairs...

@ItemfinderDeluxe: The problem is that the flip is not all. Most character classes have a laughable jumping height.
So even if I give a thug Konoko's jump-flip, it won't make him able to go to high places per se. Plus it'll look tragic.
That said, adding animations to animation sets is not all that tedious, as there are much fewer TRAC than ONCC...
I just might implement your stuff, but definitely not with top priority (because I would have to edit "jumping skills").
For now, I recommend the dev mode to whoever is desperate enough to play through all of Oni as a thug or civilian.

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/04/08 21:02

More like Shinatama... Pacifist Mode anyone?

Also, is Edition compatible with Developer Mode, and if so, how do you open in? Is it just "thedayismine"?

Ultimatum479 · 02/04/08 21:02

geyser wrote:

BTW, more generally (and I know you'll come back to me on that one), "stair combat" is "glitchy enough" in real life, too, "especially with throws".

Glitchy =/= difficult. I'm referring to being able to throw people who are way too far away, etc.

geyser · 02/05/08 07:02

"I'm referring to being able to throw people who are way too far away, etc."
Whatever. Don't expect us to fix Oni's stair combat completely, anyway

"More like Shinatama... Pacifist Mode anyone?" ??????????????????????????

"Also, is Edition compatible with Developer Mode, and if so, how do you open in?"
F1, then either "thedayismine" or "x", as long as you have SFeLi's Daodan DLL.
For the Mac, only "thedayismine" works, and you must get the engine from EdT.

Ultimatum479 · 02/05/08 08:02

thedayismine has _never_ worked on a Mac to my knowledge. It's "killmequick".

geyser · 02/05/08 08:02

Hm. Ah, yeah, maybe there wasn't enough room for an extra cheat, so we scrapped the Ultra Mode. Ed?

Iritscen · 02/05/08 10:02

Wow, I have so many comments I'm going to number them:
1. What the frack happened to my post #109? It was in some other discussion before, and now it's right in the middle of geyser talking to IfD. Oh well.

2. Yeah, my understanding was that we will never have real Ultra Mode, only the "Ultra Mode" that is actually Dev Mode. Not that I care, personally.

3. He means that Shinatama can't fight, so for a real challenge, shapeshift to her and do a pacifist runthrough (an impossible challenge, that is). (Technically, she's not a pacifist; she can still use weapons!) I've been eagerly awaiting the addition of melee skills to Shinnie for a while now. Not crazy ninja skills, mind you, just mid-level ones.

4. "Most character classes have a laughable jumping height. So even if I give a thug Konoko's jump-flip, it won't make him able to go to high places per se. Plus it'll look tragic." That last part made me laugh. It's true that the jumping height is startlingly realistic for many characters, in contrast to Konoko. But it doesn't seem fair to make people use camera-teleporting (which I don't even know how to do). I guess there's nothing that can be done about this without altering the way the character works, which would be a shame. Too bad you can't make a double-jump move as a hack to allow the player to take a low-jumping character higher.

5. I never minded stairs combat; it's challenging, but why wouldn't it be? Truthfully, I was always just impressed that Oni can handle the difference in height smartly when you attack/block. I guess it's because Oni actually tracks collisions by bone, rather than saying "That's a low attack, it needs a low block", it knows that if you're below an enemy on the stairs, a normal (high) block could actually block his legsweep or what have you. At least, I think it works that way....

Last edited by Iritscen (02/05/08 10:02)

ItemfinderDeluxe · 02/05/08 16:02

@ Iritscen - Actually, you seem to foget Shinatama has two moves (a recovery kick and the twister kick). Therefore, it is possible to fight your way through the level, however, the "Pacifist" idea comes from the attempt to avoid combat wherever possible - that doesn't, however, mean I don't kill people (like Barabas, because he had it coming )

Also, some characters have enough of a jumping ability to warrant a jump-flip: most civilian forms (especially robots) and Shinatama can gain enough height to maybe pull it off. For everyone else, how about a jump-roll? Use the TCTF SWAT ground roll, and maybe convert it to the command for a jump-flip? That way, it doesn't look so ridiculous (do a barrel roll!).

geyser · 02/05/08 17:02

Oh. I had forgotten all about the kangaroo cheat. That's it, problem solved. Shapeshift to whoever you want and do F1, kangaroo. Daodan feature, PC only.

As for the flips - just forget them for now, OK? I have your request "filed", and I just might implement it some other time, but for now - if you're desperate enough, as I said - just use the kangaroo cheat or teleportation (if you're on a Mac). Yeah, you have to look into Dev Mode hotkeys for that. Yeah, tough luck. Just live with it and don't bug me about more right now. Woohooing around with a thug is not at the top of the Edition's list; that's all there is to it.

"What the frack happened to my post #109?" Indeed. Weird things are happening.

"my understanding was that we will never have real Ultra Mode, only the "Ultra Mode" that is actually Dev Mode. Not that I care, personally."
The Ultra Mode removes some of the pauses between melee events that make Oni's AI so vulnerable. So I'd miss it a little bit if I were you.

"I've been eagerly awaiting the addition of melee skills to Shinnie for a while now." I need to bring her back to Earth first, if you see what I mean.
Then again, hasn't Ed made the fighting Shinatama available as an .oni file? If he has, you may have noted that she screws up a few cutscenes.
That means we'd probably duplicate Shinatama rather than edit the current one in-place: one intended for cutscenes, another for shapeshifting.

"But it doesn't seem fair to make people use camera-teleporting (which I don't even know how to do)." Your problem, not mine. Use the wiki.

"I guess there's nothing that can be done about this without altering the way the character works, which would be a shame." That's not so.
AI characters never "hold JUMP to get higher", so the "jetpack" effect will allow the player to jump higher without altering the AI behaviour.

"it knows that if you're below an enemy on the stairs, a normal (high) block could actually block his legsweep or what have you." I'm really not sure about this.

"some characters have enough of a jumping ability to warrant a jump-flip: most civilian forms (especially robots)" Male civilians can't jump any higher than Strikers or Comguys. Female civilians/scientists jump as high as Konoko. Ninjabots jump as high as ninjas (i.e., higher than Konoko). Of all the non-flipping characters (robots excepted), Tankers are the only ones who seem to have a decent bounce in their step.

"or everyone else, how about a jump-roll? Use the TCTF SWAT ground roll" No. A flip is a flip. If I do it, I'll use Muro's flip (or the ninja flip) for all the males.

Iritscen · 02/06/08 09:02

@IfD: Oh! I had no idea Shinatama could melee attack at all.

"my understanding was that we will never have real Ultra Mode, only the "Ultra Mode" that is actually Dev Mode. Not that I care, personally."
The Ultra Mode removes some of the pauses between melee events that make Oni's AI so vulnerable. So I'd miss it a little bit if I were you.

If I were better at melee and wanted more of a challenge, I would care. As it is, the Edition is challenging enough for me :sweatdrop: (we really need that smiley on the board)

"I guess there's nothing that can be done about this without altering the way the character works, which would be a shame." That's not so.
AI characters never "hold JUMP to get higher", so the "jetpack" effect will allow the player to jump higher without altering the AI behaviour.

Hmm! Interesting.

"it knows that if you're below an enemy on the stairs, a normal (high) block could actually block his legsweep or what have you." I'm really not sure about this.

When I said "it knows", I don't mean that Oni takes stairs into account through some specific coding, but merely that it judges attack success/failure by bone collision, and looks at the area it's hitting on the opponent and whether it's blocked. Are you saying you don't think a high block could stop a low kick on the stairs? Then perhaps I will do some testing.

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