Oni Central Forum

A forum for the Oni community

You are not logged in.

#26 21/1/08 21:28

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

I started this page for 7AE, please help fill in:
http://wiki.oni2.net/7th_Anniversary_Edition

Offline

#27 21/1/08 21:39

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

I'm renaming it to "Anniversary Edition" for the following reasons:
1) it reads a lot clearer without the "Seventh" or "7th" or whatever
2) it leaves the people wondering how long it's been (a good thing)
3) it then leaves them wondering "why 7?" (yet another good thing)

The main menu background project here says "anniversary edition":
http://onimia.ru/forum/attachment.php?item=50
(in the final version, that "header" should be somewhat smaller)
And then, at the bottom, inside the stylised 7 shape: "it's a seven".
(the latter catchphrase was suggested by Iritscen; context is mine)
(it doesn't refer only to the anniversary, but also to the odd shape)

BTW, this is a great opportunity to tidy up the Wikipedia article.
It's very messy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni_(video_game)
It would be nice if someone gave the storyline summary a shot.
You can discuss the summary either on our wiki or here on OCF.

Last edited by geyser (21/1/08 21:56)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#28 21/1/08 23:44

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Some bug in my browser, ignore this.

Last edited by Loser (21/1/08 23:53)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#29 21/1/08 23:51

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

gumby:

For some reason a comguy hit a fence in the Airport level and stopped dodging

Yes, it is bug caused by dodging. If you stop shooting and then start again, he will begin to dodge again.

for geyser: just a question- can be engine changed that projectile/weapon dodging takes pathfinding into an account ??? I have been messing in ACC level, and everybody fell down the ledges while dodging. It is caused by the fact that while dodging, AI uses system similar to melee AI-it has just a vector where it should run, ignoring pathfinding grid completely. Can be seen with "ai2_showpaths=1".

                                                                                                                                                  Loser


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#30 22/1/08 0:27

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Well, I've finally tested out the anniversary edition for a few minutes. I'll try it more later this week if I have time, but for now, I really dislike the whole domino-effect thing, since A: hitting people and having them fall onto you and hurt you is horribly lame; and B: hitting people and having them fall onto their teammates, or watching as your enemies do the same thing, is horribly lame. Also, Konoko's inability to dash screws up jumps, rolls, fighting, you name it.


Work in progress...

Offline

#31 22/1/08 0:57

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Noo, it was a pathfinding glitch, methinks, I never stopped...

Konoko always dashes...she just cant run


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

Offline

#32 22/1/08 7:11

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

"Noo, it was a pathfinding glitch, methinks, I never stopped..." Bumping into the fence caused the comguy to stop dodging until you stop and start firing again.

"It is caused by the fact that while dodging, AI uses system similar to melee AI-it has just a vector where it should run, ignoring pathfinding grid completely."
So you are saying they never actually choose to hide behind obstacles (which would imply that pathfinding info is relevant)? If so, there's nothing we can do.
Really, "can the engine be changed so that projectile/weapon dodging takes pathfinding into account ?" - what do you think? "Oh, and add multiplayer, too."
You know as well as I that pathfinding consists of commands like "run/walk/creep to waypoint X". We'd have to generate those waypoints out of nothing neutral
And even if we do generate them, pathfinding-powered dodging probably wouldn't be fast enough, since the AI would have to turn in that direction first...

"I'll try it more later this week if I have time, but for now, I really dislike the whole domino-effect thing"
I hope it will grow on you like on everyone else here. It's not horribly lame once you get used to it, IMO.
"hitting people and having them fall onto their teammates" - now, if that's not realistic and fun, what is?
"hitting people and having them fall onto you and hurt you" - that one still calls for some polishing, true.
It's totally OK if you knock down an enemy up-close and he collapses on your legs and hurts you a bit.
But we should try and rule out situations where crumpling enemies send you flying: stagger at the most.

"Also, Konoko's inability to dash screws up jumps, rolls, fighting, you name it."
We wouldn't have released the dash-hack if it screwed up fighting overall, because we care.
"Rolls" (whatever they are) should work fine. No one complained about such a thing so far.
The inability to run slowly makes it hard/impossible to make jumps of intermediate length.
That's frustrating, but only in very specific situations, such as jumping from crate to crate.
This might be fixed by hooking the engine function that enables the sprint variant. Later.

About the projectile-dodging EXE. I'll upload it onto oni2.net first chance I get.
Meanwhile, grab it here: http://onimia.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2650#p2650
(since Harry's attachments have been buggy lately, I'll just link to Ame's for now)

Last edited by geyser (22/1/08 7:16)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#33 22/1/08 12:16

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

I am just reconnecting after the long weekend here.  Will try the latest version ASAP.  I think it's for the best that we delay this; I may even be able to contribute something myself to the game (I'm thinking higher-res textures).  We will see.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#34 22/1/08 15:33

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

geyser wrote:

"hitting people and having them fall onto their teammates" - now, if that's not realistic and fun, what is?

You can already do that with throws. There's no need to add that with all normal attacks too, because now you've taken all the challenge out of group combat. If you're claiming to have done this for the sake of "realism", I'm in shock. If you want realistic collision damage, people shouldn't be able to jump towards others and not do any damage unless they're attacking, yet, in AE, enemies can leap towards you and leave you unscathed unless you HIT them in mid-air?!?! Jump-attacking enemies now _must_ be blocked or dodged because attacking them in mid-air (which is logical, since they can't air-block) guarantees that you'll take damage.

geyser wrote:

"hitting people and having them fall onto you and hurt you" - that one still calls for some polishing, true....It's totally OK if you knock down an enemy up-close and he collapses on your legs and hurts you a bit.

No it's not, because in any realistic situation you'd get out of the way of a falling enemy, but if you knock down an enemy in Oni, you simply can't roll to safety before your attack animation is over and you hurt yourself needlessly. Cornering an enemy in a real-life situation should be a GOOD thing, but in the AE, you can't fight a cornered enemy with the majority of your running attacks or even plenty of normal attacks without hurting yourself. Essentially, you've made throw-spamming and special-move-spamming even more rewarding than they already are normally due to their invincibility against flying enemies, which is lame. Also, right now, cross-character multiplayer balance is nonexistent even with special moves disabled, because Furies are even more ridiculously overpowered than normal since they're invincible (to melee attacks) and unstoppable during their combos.

geyser wrote:

"Rolls" (whatever they are) should work fine. No one complained about such a thing so far.

That seems illogical, considering that you now can't run forward. (-.-) Forward rolls are now slides unless you're standing still, which is generally a bad idea when you're outnumbered (because standing still is only useful to block, which isn't generally possible when you're surrounded anyway). Konoko breaks into a sprint when you hold forward within about a second, tops, so that gives you a pretty small window for making a roll from a run rather than from a stationary position. I'm fairly certain that rolling in combat isn't really considered an "advanced" combat skill (even the AIs do it all the time), so I'm quite surprised that you say no one else has mentioned this problem.

geyser wrote:

The inability to run slowly makes it hard/impossible to make jumps of intermediate length.
That's frustrating, but only in very specific situations, such as jumping from crate to crate.

Or jump-flip attacks which have to be very precisely aimed in certain situations, such as in hitting multiple opponents with one jump-flip -- oh, but of course: jump-flip attacks now end up hurting Konoko half the time because the opponents fall backwards onto her. v_V

Seriously, am I the only one who uses these methods in battle and thus runs across all these problems that make AE fighting so restrictive? I know I've seen DSK-spamming in YouTube vids, but I've also seen some pretty decent fighting, so I'll have to assume that those people aren't the ones testing out AE...

Last edited by Ultimatum479 (22/1/08 17:11)


Work in progress...

Offline

#35 22/1/08 15:57

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

I was not fond of this change when it was introduced, but I have gotten used to it and it rarely causes a problem for me now.  I agree that you shouldn't have to worry about flying kicks or spins hurting you as well.  That's still a niggling problem for me.  But in watching the AI duke it out in the good_evil script that EdT wrote, and that I later modified, you won't see inadvertent knockbacks happening much -- only when one combatant falls into another; the "domino" effect.  This, to me, is realistic, and I like that I can more easily clear some space around me in a one-on-many melee.  Combined with the improved melee abilities, the game is definitely not being made easier.  But perhaps some tweaks should be made to when you are vulnerable to knockback.  Looks like we have plenty of time to micro-adjust it now.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#36 22/1/08 18:09

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

I'm not sure I should be defending Loser's rationale in his place (I'm merely distributing the changes he released earlier), but what the blam...
First of all, you certainly raise important issues that must be settled before the "final" release, and I hope we can come to a nice compromise.
I will respond with some polemics first, and then I will propose actual improvements to the current state of affairs, which you should consider.
I'd be grateful if your feedback was somewhat more organized, somehow less vindicative, and maybe even constructive, when you're ready.

I don't think "challenging" describes "old" group combat situations well. Especially in OTA, massive group fights were massively frustrating.
People were basically forced to resort to throws or crowd-clearers to trim the wall of opponents surrounding them... Now there's more to it.
If you think splash damage is OK for throws, I can't see why there shouldn't be any for knockdowns and blownups with similar momentum.
Arguably, the splash impact doesn't have to send you flying (and actually, it doesn't always do so). A staggering effect is better sometimes.
Another point is that the AI should detect the knockdown as a threat and act accordingly. This is possible, but requires some more modding.

"Cornering an enemy in a real-life situation should be a GOOD thing" Not really. Cornering an enemy has its drawbacks. *David mode ON*
First of all, you can't really throw kicks from up-close. If you do, you'll hurt yourself (which is exactly what can happen in the Edition now).
Second, you can't really run-kick or run-jump-kick a cornered guy: you have to adapt to the fact that you and him have nowhere to fly.
So, about the only advantage of cornering an enemy (in real-life and in AE) is his restricted freedom of movement (dodging & circling).

"if you knock down an enemy in Oni, you simply can't roll to safety before your attack animation is over and you hurt yourself needlessly."
Actually, you can (and are sorta supposed to) do something about this. You can't start a dodge before your attack is finished, sure. But.
You can adapt the attacks to the knockdowns, depending on the range of the attacks themselves. Even so, you can still have bad luck...
For example, let's say that by the time your Sledgehammer Heel hits, the enemy has come up-close. Wouldn't that hurt you, in real life?
For run-kicks and such, the trick is to take full advantage of midair aiming. It probably helps to disable Oni's "melee auto-aiming", BTW.
For example, you'd aim a jump-kick at the shoulder of an enemy rather than at his chest, so that you can jump-kick and then evade...

"in any realistic situation you'd get out of the way of a falling enemy" My point is that you can't always in real life, and you can in the AE.

"now you've taken all the challenge out of group combat." My point to that is that there's more to group combat than splash damage.
The challenge comes or will come from enhanced melee logic (we didn't touch it yet), lineups (strongmen, sidekicks, weapons), etc.
As the AI themselves start to behave in more and more human ways, you'll be glad to have the domino effect when crowded. IMO.

"you've made throw-spamming and special-move-spamming even more rewarding due to their invincibility against flying enemies"
Could you please develop on that? I merely had the impression of being "invited" to use specials now - they used to be redundant.
People used to complain about how one could go through all of Oni using only a few basic routines to defeat every single enemy...
Also note that people are no longer invulnerable while throwing. They can't be knocked down or thrown, but they do take damage.
And as for the specials, none of them make you totally invulnerable as far as I know... In particular not against flying enemies...

"Furies are even more ridiculously overpowered than normal since they're invincible (to melee attacks) and unstoppable during their combos"
Again, please develop. Loser may have forgotten to "vulnerabilize" certain characters during certain anims. So, "help us help you help us all".


Moving on to dashing VS running and sliding VS rolling. The first thing to understand here is that the dash/slide hack is an AI-oriented feature.
As of today, we have no way to make the AI dash except by making their running animations mimic their sprinting ones - exactly what we did.
In order to make the Furies dash as well, we had to modify Konoko's animation set, which in turn ruled out "apparent running" for the player.
Now, the running is actually still there. It just looks exactly the same as dashing, but Oni still knows whether you've double-tapped W or not.
Since the slide/roll selection depends on whether you've double-tapped W, that selection actually works after applying the dash hack per se.
However, we then went and modified the slide so that it always gets picked. First, to avoid confusion (since running and dashing now look alike).
Second, because only Konoko has a roll, whereas all the other original character types always do the slide, no matter if they're dashing or not.
(so we thought that roll of hers was no big loss: it's actually a replica of her standing forward roll; it deals no damage, as opposed to the slide)
Last but not least, it was necessary to make the slide available while running - in order for our AI-powered Konokos to use the slide technique.

"I'm fairly certain that rolling in combat isn't really considered an "advanced" combat skill (even the AIs do it all the time)"
So, my point here is that rolling while running is not a skill at all, and for the record the AI can never "roll" while running.
They always switch to their "slide" move as soon as they're on the move. For Comguys, this happens to look like a roll.
The big difference between a Comguy's running roll (actually a slide) and Konoko's running roll is the damage dealt.
The running "roll" is an attack move for the AI, as the slide is for Konoko. And Konoko's roll is pretty much useless.

"Or jump-flip attacks which have to be very precisely aimed in certain situations" Why is precision a problem, again?

"jump-flip attacks now end up hurting Konoko half the time" Actually, I hardly get hit by the new knockdowns at all.
Maybe I've gotten used to the new system and intuitively choose or aim my attacks so as to avoid the knockback.

"I've seen DSK-spamming in YouTube vids, but I've also seen some pretty decent fighting"
We have yet to see your vidmaster skills on display. You're totally welcome to post videos.
The most expert vidmaster I know has not tried the Edition yet (trouble downloading .NET)
We'll know soon enough if AE melee sucks as much as you apparently think it does. Soon.
At any rate, feel free to invite potential Oni gamers (or even ex-experts) to try out the AE.


OK, enough crap. Time for a few compromises, I guess.

1) Concerning splash damage dealt by knockdowns and blownups.
One can specifically address the current issues with every animation (track down which bones typically cause frustrating knockbacks, etc).
More simply, one can rule out the domino effect for knockbacks (meaning people hit by a knockback would only be staggered at the most).
A limited domino effect would still be there for blownups (meaning a guy blown by a grenade would knock down bystanders, occasionally).
This domino effect is limited (because the splash knockdown, in turn, can only cause a stagger for further bystanders, not a knockdown).
Also, it would obviously make the domino effect totally absent from melee, except from the familar throw splash damage. So... happy?

(as for the AI being able to dodge incoming knockdowns/blownups, setting up the prediction data is more trouble than I want to commit to)

2) Concerning dashing and sliding.
Indeed I'm more and more convinced that ruling out running (and rolling) makes for an inappropriate single-player experience if anything...
The obvious fix is to make all the Konokos use the original animation set, while the other female classes (e.g., Furies) will use the dash-hack.
That way, the AI will systematically dash, whereas the player will keep the original Oni feel, as long as he doesn't shapeshift to other classes.
If we allow for AI-powered Konokos (e.g., Evil Konoko), we'll just create TRAC and ONCC duplicates. It will mean (acceptable) extra storage.

3) Last but not least: custom install options.
Right now, all the available patches are applied without any distinction. The resulting content might not be to the likes of all the potential users.
It's actually quite easy to design a system that would allow the user to choose what patches to install. The AE would thus be largely custom...
An alert user can already physically disable or replace what he doesn't like about AE. For the rest of us, we will need to define "packages".
For example, one would be able to add all of Loser's upgrades except the dash-hack, or everything except the knockdown thing...

I think (3) will definitely happen in time for July (with a neat GUI on both PC and Mac), but this doesn't mean we shouldn't work on (1) and (2).
I hope you agree with my proposals for both (1) and (2). I'll try and implement them, but don't hold your breath for a release any time soon.
My Oni time is technically void these days (heck, I'm not even supposed to visit these boards, let alone write lengthy posts like this one)...

Sayonara...

Last edited by geyser (22/1/08 18:26)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#37 22/1/08 19:34

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

geyser wrote:

People were basically forced to resort to throws or crowd-clearers to trim the wall of opponents surrounding them... Now there's more to it.

No, there's _less_ to it: you just do knockdown attacks repeatedly and defend a lot less. Since you paraphrase David in your post, I'll do the same: group fights are _not_ meant to be easily winnable. The point is to avoid getting yourself surrounded in the first place. If you _are_ surrounded, then you're _supposed_ to be getting smashed to bits unless you're using special moves or the like.

geyser wrote:

If you think splash damage is OK for throws, I can't see why there shouldn't be any for knockdowns and blownups with similar momentum.

It's thematic. Throws are _meant_ to be used to send people flying into each other; that's the whole point of them. Normal attacks aren't meant to do that. If you want "realistic" collisions, as you said, then you can't just add collision effects to enemies who are knocked down: you have to make people who are dashing end up smashing into stationary opponents with a knockdown effect, make jumping opponents do damage to people below them without having to jump flip (since not every character has a flip attack), etc. If you did that, I'd actually have less of an issue with this, though I still wouldn't be happy. At least that way you wouldn't have to _hit_ an enemy jumping at you in order to activate his ability to hurt you by landing on you.

geyser wrote:

"Cornering an enemy in a real-life situation should be a GOOD thing" Not really. Cornering an enemy has its drawbacks. *David mode ON*
First of all, you can't really throw kicks from up-close. If you do, you'll hurt yourself (which is exactly what can happen in the Edition now).
Second, you can't really run-kick or run-jump-kick a cornered guy: you have to adapt to the fact that you and him have nowhere to fly.
So, about the only advantage of cornering an enemy (in real-life and in AE) is his restricted freedom of movement (dodging & circling).

I have to question your real-life fighting experience, then. (-.-) The point of having a wall behind your enemy is primarily to restrict his/her maneuvering, yes. In AE, your _own_ maneuvering is fairly restricted when your enemy is cornered because (s)he'll end up bouncing off the wall (unrealistically) and landing on you if you do an attack of above-average power. In addition, having people backed up against a wall has the added advantage of allowing you to hit them into it for more damage, which does _not_ hurt you: you're hitting flesh while they're hitting a solid wall. As for throwing kicks from up-close hurting you, it doesn't hurt you by making them _fall_ on you! Any skilled fighter, as Konoko most definitely is, who starts a kick from too close will turn it into a knee or shin attack rather than hitting with her foot, thus still doing damage to her opponent while remaining unharmed herself. The only reason that doing a close-up kick is dangerous is because your enemy can counter it more easily now that he's inside your maximum range, and that's valid in unmodded Oni because they can block and counter with a punch or grab.

geyser wrote:

You can adapt the attacks to the knockdowns, depending on the range of the attacks themselves.

I've tested that. You certainly can, but it restricts Konoko's arsenal far too much. For example, there's still no consistent anti-air non-super attack aside from the Twister Kick, which is _far_ too slow for such a simple issue.

geyser wrote:

...[T]here's more to group combat than splash damage.
The challenge comes or will come from enhanced melee logic (we didn't touch it yet), lineups (strongmen, sidekicks, weapons), etc.
As the AI themselves start to behave in more and more human ways, you'll be glad to have the domino effect when crowded. IMO.

So you're saying that, as things get more challenging, the domino effect will make it easy enough to handle, and that's why it's being included. I don't think I even have to explain why that logic isn't logical.

geyser wrote:

Could you please develop on that? I merely had the impression of being "invited" to use specials now - they used to be redundant.
Also note that people are no longer invulnerable while throwing. They can't be knocked down or thrown, but they do take damage.
And as for the specials, none of them make you totally invulnerable as far as I know... In particular not against flying enemies...

Sorry, meant "unstoppable", not "invincible". With the issues of projectile-people being hurled all over the place, unstoppability is the most important thing to have in a group battle, so people are just going to spam special moves. I'll have to play more to be certain, but from what I've seen so far, even the AI has begun to spam unstoppable moves far more often than normal: Furies are now quite obsessed with their Whirl Kick, Elites use the Cannonball Roll way more frequently than they used to use it, and I think I'm even seeing more Striker Slams than usual (though that one's hard to judge, since it's pretty common from Red Strikers in group combat anyway).

geyser wrote:

Again, please develop. Loser may have forgotten to "vulnerabilize" certain characters during certain anims. So, "help us help you help us all".

Furies have always been invulnerable during their PPP and KKK combos. That's why the AIs love using 'em so much (which, of course, makes 'em predictable enough for you to roll around behind 'em and unleash a Backbreaker with sickening consistency and ease).

geyser wrote:

Moving on to dashing VS running and sliding VS rolling...(technical explanations)

Yes, I understand the reason for the change. I'm just disagreeing due to the consequences of the change.

geyser wrote:

And Konoko's roll is pretty much useless.

See, that's where I have a problem. It's an _extremely_ useful dodge, setting up Backbreakers better than almost any other move in her arsenal. I don't see how you can say that. Rolling under an enemy's high attack (Striker Slam, high kicks, jump attacks, etc) or around an enemy's charging attack (Cannonball Roll, Headbutt Dash, etc) allows Konoko the perfect method to get behind an enemy and annihilate the opposition with a Backbreaker, Sledgehammer Heel, suplex, etc. Take away rolls and now she has to _slide_ to do the same thing, which not only loses her slight invincibility/unstoppability window but also ends up knocking the enemy flat on his face if he's not doing a super-move, which, of course, ruins the Backbreaker (at least in group combat; when fighting a single enemy, a prone enemy is as good as Backbroken).

geyser wrote:

Why is precision a problem, again?

......What the hell is that supposed to mean?

geyser wrote:

Actually, I hardly get hit by the new knockdowns at all.
Maybe I've gotten used to the new system and intuitively choose or aim my attacks so as to avoid the knockback.

No, you're right, flip attacks don't knock her down that often when fighting enemies on the ground. When flipping to counter a mid-air enemy, it usually does, which is why I thought that, since that's one of my most common uses for the flip attack.

geyser wrote:

We have yet to see your vidmaster skills on display. You're totally welcome to post videos.

Actually, we may be in luck. ^_^ I might have access to a camera (and some much-needed free time!) within a week or two.

geyser wrote:

The most expert vidmaster I know has not tried the Edition yet (trouble downloading .NET)

Who's that?

OK, enough crap. Time for a few compromises, I guess.

geyser wrote:

More simply, one can rule out the domino effect for knockbacks (meaning people hit by a knockback would only be staggered at the most).
A limited domino effect would still be there for blownups (meaning a guy blown by a grenade would knock down bystanders, occasionally).
This domino effect is limited (because the splash knockdown, in turn, can only cause a stagger for further bystanders, not a knockdown).
Also, it would obviously make the domino effect totally absent from melee, except from the familar throw splash damage. So... happy?

I'd still like it if there were a way to _block_ thrown enemies, since that's entirely possible in real life, but if they just staggered instead of knocking down anyone who was hit, it'd probably be tolerable.

geyser wrote:

(as for the AI being able to dodge incoming knockdowns/blownups, setting up the prediction data is more trouble than I want to commit to)

There's more than just that to fix with the AI, AE changes aside, so I imagine that's an entire project on its own and then some. No worries there.

geyser wrote:

The obvious fix is to make all the Konokos use the original animation set, while the other female classes (e.g., Furies) will use the dash-hack.
That way, the AI will systematically dash, whereas the player will keep the original Oni feel, as long as he doesn't shapeshift to other classes.
If we allow for AI-powered Konokos (e.g., Evil Konoko), we'll just create TRAC and ONCC duplicates. It will mean (acceptable) extra storage.

Sounds good to me. Shapeshifting to other classes wouldn't be an issue because, as you mentioned, the other classes use the same crouch attacks whether dashing or running, and they shouldn't be expected to do the kind of detailed jumping that Konoko does since most of them can't jump as well as she can even in base Oni.

geyser wrote:

An alert user can already physically disable or replace what he doesn't like about AE. For the rest of us, we will need to define "packages".
For example, one would be able to add all of Loser's upgrades except the dash-hack, or everything except the knockdown thing...

Huh. I'll have to look into that, cuz I really do like the ability to shapeshift into every character. It makes for some fun OTAs. ^_^ So far, the only OTA edit I've done in base Oni which was interesting was changing the Syndicate Mountain Compound OTA so that Muro's on your team and everyone who's normally on your team joins the opposing team. (Of course, since Konoko barely dies compared to the other characters and she's now half of Team Hasegawa, the frag limit for Team Inferior was dropped to ten kills.) With this, I can try fun things like EdT's "Good v Evil" script.

geyser wrote:

I think (3) will definitely happen in time for July (with a neat GUI on both PC and Mac), but this doesn't mean we shouldn't work on (1) and (2).

July! Ooh! I get a birthday present!


Work in progress...

Offline

#38 22/1/08 22:00

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

U479: On another thread you asked what language you should learn.  Why not learn how to modify and improve Oni's binaries?

Go to the wiki, read about ONCC, TRAM, CHAR, etc, then using a hex editor start looking at the files and start making changes.  If there is something you don't like about the current settings, make the modify the files until you like it. Then share it with the rest of us. smile

The more people that can work and improve the binaries, the faster we'll have a great playing game!

Personally, I like AE because it is easier for me to experiment with the files.  For example, I have my own custom version of AE. My Shinatama can fight, I added the "dust hack" to break glass, I'm using Loser's Brutal Konoko and Striker melee profiles, I added more characters to level1.  I learned how to do all this by asking a lot of questions, reading the wiki and a lot of trial and error.  That's where the idea of AE tools came about, I wanted a easier to recompile the levels, than always going to the terminal and entering the commands.

Anyways, for example, since you don't like the way knockdown works, you could run the AE scripts on a fresh GameDataFolder and delete the files from step4 that modifies the knockdown and blownup files.  Or better yet, help to figure out how to improve them!

Offline

#39 22/1/08 22:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Ooh. I'm hesitating between ignoring further comments from Lugaru fans or dropping the project altogether smile

From the bottom:

If you don't like Loser's array of hacks and only want Oni's original character classes to be globally available, here you go: http://geyser.oni2.net/edition/20080101/

"the other classes [...] shouldn't be expected to do the kind of detailed jumping that Konoko does"
Well, Furies, Ninjas, Tankers and a few new characters are quite enjoyable to jump around as...
We can either create non-dashing duplicates for them or let the user suffer like you suffer now.

"There's more than just that to fix with the AI, AE changes aside, so I imagine that's an entire project on its own and then some."
You're invited to try and suggest improvements whenever possible, otherwise such compassion is easily mistaken for sarcasm smile

"I'd still like it if there were a way to _block_ thrown enemies, since that's entirely possible in real life,
but if they just staggered instead of knocking down anyone who was hit, it'd probably be tolerable."
Huuuuuuuh? You'd suppress splash knockdown for the original throws? "That's f##king blasphemy!"

"I'd still like it if there were a way to _block_ thrown enemies, since that's entirely possible in real life"
I never tried, but physically a tumbling guy packs quite a lot of momentum. Not easily blocked at all.

"Who's that?" ZDLO. Loser is a good theoricist, but his OTA videos weren't all that impressive.
Then again, Loser had to hit FRAPS hotkeys every few seconds, so that explains some of it.

"I might have access to a camera (and some much-needed free time!) within a week or two."
Be my guest. And note that vidmaster skills are not, in principle, incompatible with humility smile

"When flipping to counter a mid-air enemy, it usually does, which is why I thought that, since that's one of my most common uses for the flip attack."
This is the general problem with enemies jumping at you, as you pointed out. They keep their momentum unless you use some special move there.
Anyway, I wouldn't use a jump-flip in those cases. Or if I did, I'd aim it so that I don't "entangle" in the enemy after hitting him (realistic enough) smile
I always meant to give Konoko two or three mini-dodges that would allow one to hit such jumping enemies after moving out of their path of flight.
Another idea is to bind the Crescent Kick as a new, readily accessible special move. That would sorta redeem it as an out-of-the-air-enemy-kicker.
Then again, if domino knockdowns are replaced with staggers (which you didn't comment upon much BTW), that would pretty much fix you, right?

"Why is precision a problem, again? - What the hell is that supposed to mean?" Why are you upset with an overall more technical gameplay?

"It's an _extremely_ useful dodge, setting up Backbreakers better than almost any other move in her arsenal."
I don't see how sliding wouldn't allow you to set up Backbreakers in exactly the same way. Could you explain?
There is always some room to the side of the enemy for you to slide at a "safe" distance for both of you, IMO.
BTW, I hope you don't resent the fact that we've made the Backbreaker significantly less deadly... Do you? smile

"Furies have always been invulnerable during their PPP and KKK combos." Are you positive that they still are?
"That's why the AIs love using 'em so much" Even if they do, we'll change that. If that's OK with you, of course.

"predictable enough for you to roll around behind 'em and unleash a Backbreaker with sickening consistency and ease"
I guess you're asking for shorter pauses and systematic back-kicks at you right as you're preparing for a backbreaker.
We can do that, but I wouldn't want to make the AI so smart that you find them challenging. Everyone else'd hate'em.
Seriously, though, I'd advise you to play with killmequick, since that's actually supposed to make a (slight) difference.

"from what I've seen so far, even the AI has begun to spam unstoppable moves far more often than normal"
I told you we didn't touch the melee profiles yet... They just turn more quickly and pause a bit less overall.

"unstoppability is the most important thing to have in a group battle, so people are just going to spam special moves"
I'm never tempted to spam, and anyway I don't see how the current AE makes things worse of what would be better.
Characters are typically not unstoppable during specials, and it's quite possible to make sure they never ever are.
Throws are more tricky because of the need to complete the thrower's animation in most cases, for good looks.
One could make throws less rewarding, either by lessening the damage or disabling splash knockdowns. Sure.
But that's alchemy (not to mention blasphemy with respect to the original gameplay). You sure it's worth it?

"as things get more challenging, the domino effect will make it easy enough to handle, and that's why it's being included"
That's not the logic behind the current release, just a fair enough philosophy when you think of the upgrades to come.
I told you we did virtually nothing to the AI yet, and I already feel comfortable playing Oni on Easy again. Questions?

"there's still no consistent anti-air non-super attack aside from the Twister Kick, which is _far_ too slow for such a simple issue"
Like I said, either the Crescent Kick or the secret Super Kick could be rewired to serve as a reliable out-of-the-air-enemy-kicker.

"I have to question your real-life fighting experience, then." I don't think even David ever smashed anyone into a wall, frankly.

"(s)he'll end up bouncing off the wall (unrealistically) and landing on you if you do an attack of above-average power"
No. Characters don't bounce off walls in Oni. They bump into walls and stay there. And I'd expect you to know that smile
If you mean the legs of a cornered, knocked-down char coming towards you - yes, maybe those should be fixed.
Actually, it's not like the legs of knocked-downs should ever deal any damage: characters fly head first, typically.

"Any skilled fighter, as Konoko most definitely is, who starts a kick from too close will turn it into a knee or shin attack"
Well, in Oni she certainly won't (however, other characters do have those short-range kicks). So she has to do punches.

"As for throwing kicks from up-close hurting you, it doesn't hurt you by making them _fall_ on you!"
Here again, I think making the domino knockdown a stagger is quite close to a compromise. Right?
Throw a long-range blow at close range, and you get a slight health penalty, plus a stagger effect.

"Throws are _meant_ to be used to send people flying into each other; that's the whole point of them. Normal attacks aren't meant to do that."
Why not, why the blam not? Knockdowns are like big headbutts. It makes sense to make them break glass (IMO), so why no splash damage?
I actually find it quite rewarding to set up dominos in group fights (it would be even more rewarding if they tried to dodge those, of course).
Either realistic, or fun, maybe both. Makes you feel like Tony Jaa or something, taking the tactics beyond hitting one while dodging another.

"you have to make people who are dashing end up smashing into stationary opponents with a knockdown effect"
Yeah, and dashing into walls should all but kill you. Seriously, though, I guess you're being rhetorical right here.
You don't really, honestly want the good old dashing to systematically deal damage to bystanders, right? Right?

"make jumping opponents do damage to people below them without having to jump flip (since not every character has a flip attack)"
Sounds like an interesting feature. Land animations could/should have the feet deal damage during a short interval.
And hard landings should deal even more damage somehow (or could be just some late frames of the idle jump).
That way, you could choose to jump down floors in some situations: lose some health but insta-kill the other guy.

"At least that way you wouldn't have to _hit_ an enemy jumping at you in order to activate his ability to hurt you by landing on you."
Well, that makes some sense because you're less likely to block his momentum (which is quite something) while attacking him. IMO.
The proper way to handle a jumping enemy is thus: either stand and "block" him, or step aside for a safe retaliation. Or do a special.
Then again, splash knockdowns don't hurt you all that much (didn't I mention it? well, here it is: they don't hurt you all that much)...

"group fights are _not_ meant to be easily winnable. The point is to avoid getting yourself surrounded in the first place."
Like I said, they don't seem easily winnable to me now. For a casual player, they are just manageable, which is OK. IMO.
Crowded corridors in OTA used to be very frustrating. Realistically frustrating, maybe, but frustrating first and foremost.
Right now they allow for some extra variety when it comes to crowd-clearing (which is allowed for by the non-realism).
It's important to remember that even though realistic touches are welcome, good fun for everybody is what matters smile
In that sense, expert players are least of all in a position to criticize, since they have no idea of how the majority feels.

And as for the future, we'll see soon enough just who is easily winnable on Hard difficulty. You ain't seen nuthin' yet...

Last edited by geyser (22/1/08 22:14)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#40 22/1/08 22:43

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Iritscen said:

I may even be able to contribute something myself to the game (I'm thinking higher-res textures).  We will see.

Does this mean you got Onitools to work in OSX???? tongue

geyser said:

Ooh. I'm hesitating between ignoring further comments from Lugaru fans or dropping the project altogether

Don't you dare drop the project!!!!! smile

Offline

#41 23/1/08 0:20

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

geyser: Hold on! We will help you..wait? Why are you all running away? Stop! sigh... OK, everyone left, apart from a few OCF community members. But that is enough to rock the world ^_^
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: all videos in this post are done with the newest AE version.

Dear Ultimatum479,

Thank you for really nice comments + a few really good ideas. We appreciate that. Now for the comments/answers:

1st of all: Have you installed the LATEST Oni Anniversary edition version? If not, then do it, because yes, early knockdown damage is buggy, constantly hitting you. Also some major changes in attacks were done.

Now reactions for your comments:

- if you want to have super-realistic fights, wait till the newest Indiana Jones comes out, powered by Euphoria engine. Then play it and have super-realistic fun. But if you want only fun, then play Oni ^_^.

- a few informations about Oni engine for you: Oni DOES NOT have handled situation when somebody is punched against wall. Wall just stops the character, nothing more. There is NO wall smash animation, no special interact (like in the DoA or Tekken 4+ series) with wall. Well, it will be loong time ago since I have been silently working on fix for this, and (maybe) I will suceed. If yes, then be sure I will post here. Until then, complaining about "unrealistic feelings" while smashing somebody near wall is reasonable, yes. Go and argue with coders of Oni then, not with us.


If you want realistic collision damage, people shouldn't be able to jump towards others and not do any damage unless they're attacking, yet, in AE, enemies can leap towards you and leave you unscathed unless you HIT them in mid-air?!?! Jump-attacking enemies now _must_ be blocked or dodged because attacking them in mid-air (which is logical, since they can't air-block) guarantees that you'll take damage.

If I have to decide between realism and gameplay, I consider gameplay more important. Knockdowns are now dangerous, player have to deal with it. It is fun (and challenge). But jumping-damage dealing chars ? Sounds weird....well, maybe not. I will try it. We will see.
Next, have you tried to simply kick jumping AI ? VIDEO


No it's not, because in any realistic situation you'd get out of the way of a falling enemy, but if you knock down an enemy in Oni, you simply can't roll to safety before your attack animation is over and you hurt yourself needlessly.

If you are talking about the fact that if you K.O. enemy from the behind, he falls back on you, then it is a bug (or rather it is simplification) in the engine, not our mistake. Front head knockdown animation is automatically used if character is K.O.ed but is in an animation which is not finishing with "on the ground" animation state. Geyser and comp. will probably come out with solution, just wait.


Essentially, you've made throw-spamming and special-move-spamming even more rewarding than they already are normally due to their invincibility against flying enemies, which is lame. Also, right now, cross-character multiplayer balance is nonexistent even with special moves disabled, because Furies are even more ridiculously overpowered than normal since they're invincible (to melee attacks) and unstoppable during their combos.

Specials now (newest AE) have "windows" at the beginning and at the end, when attacker can't do anything (still in anim) but (s)he is totally vulnerable.
Furies have these windows as well. their punch/kick special attacks are fast, so no windows at the beginning, but at the end there are 20+ frames vulnerable windows for enemy's retaliation (about 1/2 second, ideal for back throw since fury can't turn in special).
And if you consider whole idea of invulnerability of main part of spec. attacks as bad, then sorry, but it is your opinion. Considering anime (not real life, ONI is anime-based), once somebody starts powerful attack, he becomes "quite a king" until he is forced to end it. In Oni there is no possibility to do reversal or parry (again, go and argue with coders of Oni about this, not with us), so I have made big weakness to these attacks by setting up quite a big time intervals (1/2 - 3/4 sec, and if you are a bit into fighting, then you know that it is quite plenty of time) when character, who done special, can't turn, can't block, can't do anything, but can be punched, kicked, thrown. I think that way you have to think twice before you start a special. If you miss, you are in a big problem. If you get blocked, you are in a smaller problem, since enemy will stagger from such a hard hit. Still, he can retaliate.
Notice that there ARE unblockable attacks in ONI (tankers have 3, all rifle specials are unblockable) but these are unblockable in order to add you favored realism. And as for getup attacks, I know they need to polish a bit, but it is not anything crucial. And getup attacks HAS to be unstoppable/invincible, otherwise fighting a crowd (2+ enemies) is impossible (I have tried it)
BUT...thank you very much for reporting Fury's combos. They were really made invincible. It is fixed now(see attachment).
VIDEO

- inability to run normally is temporary problem. You have to wait.

Or jump-flip attacks which have to be very precisely aimed in certain situations, such as in hitting multiple opponents with one jump-flip -- oh, but of course: jump-flip attacks now end up hurting Konoko half the time because the opponents fall backwards onto her. v_V

VIDEO Can't see anything wrong with it.

No, there's _less_ to it: you just do knockdown attacks repeatedly and defend a lot less. Since you paraphrase David in your post, I'll do the same: group fights are _not_ meant to be easily winnable. The point is to avoid getting yourself surrounded in the first place. If you _are_ surrounded, then you're _supposed_ to be getting smashed to bits unless you're using special moves or the like.

They are not easily winnable in the latest version of AE due to the vulnerabe windows. You do a special - it knockdowns 2/4 of the attackers, 1/4 blocks and is staggered and the last 1/4 will pummel you as you are ending your special ~_^

It's thematic. Throws are _meant_ to be used to send people flying into each other; that's the whole point of them. Normal attacks aren't meant to do that. If you want "realistic" collisions, as you said, then you can't just add collision effects to enemies who are knocked down: you have to make people who are dashing end up smashing into stationary opponents with a knockdown effect, make jumping opponents do damage to people below them without having to jump flip (since not every character has a flip attack), etc. If you did that, I'd actually have less of an issue with this, though I still wouldn't be happy. At least that way you wouldn't have to _hit_ an enemy jumping at you in order to activate his ability to hurt you by landing on you.

You are quite inspiring me, altough no, no hurts from dashing. Engine can't handle realistic ability to charge somebody with regualr dash and of course realistically slowdown. Knockdowns are easier. Knockdowned character just falls, no slowdown. Jumping damage- you get a point here, I will try it. ^_^

I have to question your real-life fighting experience, then. (-.-) The point of having a wall behind your enemy is primarily to restrict his/her maneuvering, yes. In AE, your _own_ maneuvering is fairly restricted when your enemy is cornered because (s)he'll end up bouncing off the wall (unrealistically) and landing on you if you do an attack of above-average power.

There is no bouncing off walls. Knockdowned char just slides down on the floor in knockdown animation.

In addition, having people backed up against a wall has the added advantage of allowing you to hit them into it for more damage, which does _not_ hurt you: you're hitting flesh while they're hitting a solid wall.

Again, there is no special wall-character collision for being smashed onto a wall. Go and argue with coders of Oni, not with us.

As for throwing kicks from up-close hurting you, it doesn't hurt you by making them _fall_ on you! Any skilled fighter, as Konoko most definitely is, who starts a kick from too close will turn it into a knee or shin attack rather than hitting with her foot, thus still doing damage to her opponent while remaining unharmed herself. The only reason that doing a close-up kick is dangerous is because your enemy can counter it more easily now that he's inside your maximum range, and that's valid in unmodded Oni because they can block and counter with a punch or grab.

Yes, this is drawback of knockdown damage. Now fixed, happens only sometimes, but still...
Next, in AE, enemies will block and grab you as well(or even better ^_^) as in the unmodded version.
Finally, in Oni there is no change in attacks depending on the distance between fighters. Use left/right elbow (lightning fast and knockdowns) if you are near wall and want to have "realistic feel of very close combat"

So you're saying that, as things get more challenging, the domino effect will make it easy enough to handle, and that's why it's being included. I don't think I even have to explain why that logic isn't logical

"Domino effect" reduced, but it is still there. I don't see anything wrong with it now. Really, are you sure you are playing the latest version of Oni Anniversary edition? If not, then yes, knockdowns were really messy in early stages of development.

Sorry, meant "unstoppable", not "invincible". With the issues of projectile-people being hurled all over the place, unstoppability is the most important thing to have in a group battle, so people are just going to spam special moves. I'll have to play more to be certain, but from what I've seen so far, even the AI has begun to spam unstoppable moves far more often than normal: Furies are now quite obsessed with their Whirl Kick, Elites use the Cannonball Roll way more frequently than they used to use it, and I think I'm even seeing more Striker Slams than usual (though that one's hard to judge, since it's pretty common from Red Strikers in group combat anyway).

Answered above. Due to "vulnerability windows," these attacks are not as cheap as before.

I'd still like it if there were a way to _block_ thrown enemies, since that's entirely possible in real life, but if they just staggered instead of knocking down anyone who was hit, it'd probably be tolerable.

It should make sense to make some thrown anims being stagger-blockable, but definitely not all of them. Will have a look on it.


Looks like it is all. I hope this will satisfy you.

                                                                                                                                  Loser

P.S.: about attachment - contains fix for REDCOMcomb_p_p_p and REDCOMcomb_k_k_k TRAMs (were made vulnerable). W1_tap_p07 is improved shell particle. Shells are now less bouncy and newly they bounce off characters
. Personally, I find it a bit entertaining, to shoot and watch as shells bounce of Konoko's beautiful body. ^_^

EDIT: Seems that PAR3w1_tap_p07 is corrupted. DON'T INSTALL IT. And if you had - good luck with reinstalling AE once again X_X. I am sorry, one silly mistake of mine in the file.

Last edited by Loser (23/1/08 14:45)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#42 23/1/08 0:39

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Hey Loser...instead of just one kick, do two quicker ones, to do an air combo of sorts, if you time it right it will kick him and stop him, and then kick him back ^_^

Yes, this is possible, I'll show it to you when I record myself doing the airport level ^_^ It rocks, and I'm unsure whether or not this is due to something Loser touched, or is just me being uber...

---

I got through the airport level...barely...and I forgot to press record on Savepint 2 sad I'm kinda embarrased about my fighting style though...I use throughw WAYY too much...for some reason I haven't been able to land anything lately...

I need to run it though VLC to reduce the 2GB file size anyways....here is the odd double kick (I just realized it probably wont work on moving enemies)

http://gumby701.googlepages.com/DoubleKick.wmv

Last edited by Gumby (23/1/08 1:40)


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

Offline

#43 23/1/08 10:17

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

EdT wrote:

Iritscen said:

I may even be able to contribute something myself to the game (I'm thinking higher-res textures).  We will see.

Does this mean you got Onitools to work in OSX????

Whoa, horse!  That's a long-term project, EdT.  But having OniTools or not, I could still rip the existing textures using OniUnPacker or even the AEI, and then work with them in Photoshop.

---
My two cents on the jumping enemy thing: I like Gumby's approach.  But if you are not prepared to deal with the jumping attack and need a quick out, Konoko's escape moves still work just fine.  But if Loser says he is looking at fun over realism (and I agree with that mentality), it seems to contradict what he is doing with the knockbacks -- they definitely make things more realistic.  I myself still enjoy the game, though, so I don't think anyone has sacrificed fun for realism to a great degree.

---
Loser is right that we can't be picky about wall-related issues, since Oni definitely does not handle wall collision accurately, and that's a coding issue more than anything that can be modded, although if Loser somehow can improve this element through binary hacking, it will be like a magic trick.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#44 23/1/08 10:46

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

"rip the existing textures using OniUnPacker or even the AEI, and then work with them in Photoshop"
I might provide an UV-stamps extractor, so you know how the textures will wrap on the actual mesh.

"I don't think anyone has sacrificed fun for realism to a great degree." Exactly. Let's keep it that way.

"Oni definitely does not handle wall collision accurately" I wouldn't even try fixing that. Engine issue.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#45 23/1/08 11:23

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Whoa, horse!  That's a long-term project, EdT.

Sorry, I forget to add a smilie after my question like this tongue lol!

Here's an example of higher res textures that OUP can import:
http://edt.oni2.net/mov/txmp.wmv

I made this some time ago.

Last edited by EdT (23/1/08 11:55)

Offline

#46 23/1/08 13:12

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

.....(-.-) Apparently I _was_ using a really old version of AE. I blame EdT for his AE Tools button making me download an obsolete version. tongue

So, yeah, testing all that stuff in the newest update. Let's see what happens.


Work in progress...

Offline

#47 23/1/08 13:32

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

Really old version? Checking link... AETools downloads the latest preview version as of Jan 19.  So don't blame me!!! smile

Actually, that would be a cool feature, each time there is an update to Edition, AE Tools will alert the user.  Except I have no idea how to implement that.

Offline

#48 23/1/08 16:14

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

EdT wrote:

Here's an example of higher res textures that OUP can import

What kind of maximum res. are we looking at for Oni?  I mean, how much bigger can a TXMP be than what is being used currently for walls, characters, etc.?

geyser wrote:

I might provide an UV-stamps extractor, so you know how the textures will wrap on the actual mesh.

It will be necessary to have some kind of tool that previews your square image as a UV wrap, I think.  Could we make a tool that dynamically updates the texture wrapped around the mesh that uses it, as you modify the pixels in the square version?  Programs like OniTools already have instant viewing of the M3GM files in the .dats, so why not throw a texture on them?  Is that M3GM-viewing code available to/usable for you, geyser?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#49 23/1/08 16:38

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

I mean, how much bigger can a TXMP be than what is being used currently for walls, characters, etc.?

I think for those examples I went from 64x64 to 256x256.  What's nice is that OUP allows larger sizes to be imported, but OniTools requires them to be the same size.

Regarding the 10.3.9 problem, I must be doing something wrong.

I did a display dialog (base_path) and got this \:Applications:Oni:
The I did a display dialog (safe_path) and got this \/:Applications/:Oni/:

Now I changed your code to this:

on make_path_UNIX_safe(path_name, safe_path_name)
    set target_string to ":"
    set limit to count of characters in path_name
    set offset_list to {}
    
    repeat with x from 1 to limit
        if (character x in path_name is target_string) then
            set offset_list to offset_list & " " & x
            set safe_path_name to safe_path_name & "\\"
        end if
        set safe_path_name to safe_path_name & character x in path_name
    end repeat
    return safe_path_name
end make_path_UNIX_safe

Any ideas?

Last edited by EdT (23/1/08 16:44)

Offline

#50 23/1/08 17:13

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Anniversary Edition Preview

64x64 to 256x256 is a great increase.  If we can increase texture res. by 4x then we will be halfway to having a brand-new-looking game.  Higher res. textures did wonders for Marathon.

To answer your coding questions fully would require me to have a brain right now, and unfortunately I don't, thanks to my job.  I will try to get back to you on that issue in a couple days.  But I will say that the above function has to, instead of adding a backslash, replace the current character with a forward slash when it sees a colon.  Right now it's still trying to add a backslash.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB