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#1 19/3/19 13:23

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

I'm new here!

Hi everyone - my name is Hardy LeBel, and I was the lead designer on Oni.

I just finished a video interview/retrospective with a YouTuber named CryMor, and he told me about Oni Central. I had no idea there were so many fans still engaged with this game!

I'm lurking, and trying to sift through all the material that's been created here on the site. I'm excited to see what you've all been up to.

Please drop me a line and say hi?

- h

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#2 19/3/19 14:34

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

Hey there, welcome!  I saw the video, it was great to hear from the lead designer about the craziness of making Oni.  I'm glad you guys were able to pull it off, it would have been a real loss if Oni had never shipped.  There's just not many games that can be compared to it.  And yes, we're still active to a degree — one modder is making a new level, and there are other projects going on as well.  I'll probably send you an email some time soon, there's a lot of Oni stuff I've wondered about over the years that I'd like to ask you :-)


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#3 19/3/19 15:16

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: I'm new here!

Wow nice to see the people that worked in the game here!

I am really glad to see you.

I have not checked that video yet! I will do it right now!

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#4 19/3/19 16:14

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: I'm new here!

Just watched the video, I did not know about it, such great research video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbrPu15jjPs

Btw first questions:

1 - How far did the development of the Iron Demon? There are some remaining data in some Oni discs including (and correct me if I am wrong) bsl scripts and audio files, there is also of course the footage from the trailer.

Fun fact: some users of our community created a community version of the Iron Demon, you can even play it in a custom level.

2 - Who is this guy from the losing screen from the first levels, what was planned to him?

https://wiki.oni2.net/File:Act_1_.MISSION_FAILED.png
https://wiki.oni2.net/Casey

Edit: Never mind seems that you have already replied to this question in the past (see the second wiki link above). But if you remember something else about him let us know anyway. smile

3 - Who is Mukade? smile

4 - How far did the development of the multiplayer? From what I have seen in the research video you had a terrible development time, so I suspect that you only had some bare bones working (like it was shown in the e3 conference). If I recall correctly I read somewhere that at the time it was away to difficult to get the Oni's complex gameplay over the slow internet for multiplayer, does this have some true to it or you simply lack the time to get it working properly?

Fun fact: A community member wrote a demo of what the multiplayer could be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZnbVGSyRJU

There is also a single player mod that tries to replicate a Team Deathmatch with bots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEB5GdrKVzA

Last edited by s10k (19/3/19 16:15)

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#5 19/3/19 17:25

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

s10k wrote:

Btw first questions:

1 - How far did the development of the Iron Demon? There are some remaining data in some Oni discs including (and correct me if I am wrong) bsl scripts and audio files, there is also of course the footage from the trailer.

Fun fact: some users of our community created a community version of the Iron Demon, you can even play it in a custom level.

A: Not very far at all. The team had created a model, and it had a few rudimentary animations, but that was it. I had always planned to include it as a boss fight at some point, but as we stormed through production it was clear that we just didn't have time to create a fight that was going to be compelling, considering that the Iron Demon couldn't fight hand-to-hand.

s10k wrote:

2 - Who is this guy from the losing screen from the first levels, what was planned to him?

Edit: Never mind seems that you have already replied to this question in the past (see the second wiki link above). But if you remember something else about him let us know anyway. smile

A: I believe that he was supposed to be a love interest for Konoko in an early version of the script. His face was distinctive, so I didn't want to include him as a standard TCTF agent, because it would end up looking like tons of red-haired clones running around for no reason.

s10k wrote:

3 - Who is Mukade? smile

A: If I recall correctly (and forgive me, but this was a long time ago) the megacorporations were experimenting with their own rudimentary forms of genetic manipulation, similar to the Daodan mutates. That's where the Ninja enemies came from. Besides Konoko (of course) Mukade was one of the most advanced Daodan-style mutates from the competition, and the boss of the ninjas. 

s10k wrote:

4 - How far did the development of the multiplayer? From what I have seen in the research video you had a terrible development time, so I suspect that you only had some bare bones working (like it was shown in the e3 conference). If I recall correctly I read somewhere that at the time it was away to difficult to get the Oni's complex gameplay over the slow internet for multiplayer, does this have some true to it or you simply lack the time to get it working properly?

A: We had multiplayer matches running in the office, where we would all load into a fixed arena map and run around and fight each other. The problem was that the game would quickly go out of synch, so while it looked to me like I might be successfully kicking ass in hand-to-hand combat, it would look different to other players in the same match. Once I completed the design of the game, Michael Evans and I sat down and we reviewed the technical tasks for the programming team. One of the biggest features was multiplayer, and it would have taken literally all of our programming staff a lot of time to try to make it work (with no guarantee that they could succeed). We both agreed that, in the interests of time and our deadlines, we would cut the multiplayer features.

Fun fact - the multiplayer arena map became the test bed for all of the hand-to-hand combat and weapon balancing that I was doing. I spent hours in that space, fighting and tweaking the combat behaviors of every single enemy!

Last edited by RazdByBearz (19/3/19 17:28)

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#6 19/3/19 18:57

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

Re: the multiplayer arena, it looks like you guys had multiple levels for MP play based on the screenshots that were released.  I wonder if you're thinking of The Pit: https://wiki.oni2.net/Pre-beta_content# … The_Pit.29

Can you remember how far you got with development of the BGI level?  All we have are these four screenshots: https://wiki.oni2.net/Pre-beta_content#BGI_HQ.  Did you have specific plans for BGI that were cut from the story by the time that you decided to cut the level?

One more question for now, do you recall when in development the voice actors came in to do their work?  I would think it must have been late in the process, once you had the final dialogue worked out.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#7 19/3/19 20:09

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Re: the arena - you're right, I'm thinking of The PIT. The Arena of Pain was where we did a lot of multiplayer testing. :-)

The BGI level turned into TCTF HQ. As you probably heard on the full interview with CryMOR, all of the levels in the game ultimately ended up being composites of architectural details that were stripped from various other pieces that the architects had made. The screenshots that you have of BGI were part of a that building, as were a lot of the pieces of TCTF HQ. I think we cut the stuff in the pictures just because it would have been too hard to constrain the movement of the player (you could jump off any of the ledges and get back to the floor) while making it impossible for the AI to run after you. I wanted to minimize kiting scenarios where the player could escape from the AI and leave them trapped behind closed doors.

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#8 20/3/19 8:11

s10k
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: I'm new here!

Thanks a lot RazdByBearz!

Some more questions below:

1 - People found out that there were a "kickable objects" physics feature in the engine being worked on:
https://wiki.oni2.net/Pre-beta_features … dy_physics

Do you remember what were there plans for this feature and how it would integrate in the final game?

2 - Seems that there were other airport level in works (known as Airport Part Deux):
https://wiki.oni2.net/Pre-beta_content# … _Part_Deux

Do you remember anything about this level? Was it supposed to be an extension the airport levels, between the level 4 and level 6?

3 - Talking about airport the following unreachable room was discovered in the second airport level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUr79wIP7pc

Do you remember if there was any purpose for it? Or was it just another test room?

4 - Was the Mad / Happy bomber "easter egg" intended or not?
https://wiki.oni2.net/Easter_eggs#Mad.2FHappy_Bomber

5 - There was any major level that has been cut from the final release? (maybe airport part deux?) What do you remember from them?

I am sure I will have more questions (and the community as well), I will post later on once I remember.

Last edited by s10k (20/3/19 8:15)

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#9 20/3/19 8:52

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

RazdByBearz wrote:
s10k wrote:

3 - Who is Mukade? smile

A: If I recall correctly (and forgive me, but this was a long time ago) the megacorporations were experimenting with their own rudimentary forms of genetic manipulation, similar to the Daodan mutates. That's where the Ninja enemies came from. Besides Konoko (of course) Mukade was one of the most advanced Daodan-style mutates from the competition, and the boss of the ninjas.

There's a lot of ambiguity around Mukade.  I think s10k was asking who Mukade is.  Some fans thought it was odd that Konoko starts thinking of her dad while she's chasing the master ninja through Rooftops.  In the cutscene that ensues, Mukade then refuses to acknowledge that he's just "one of Muro's thugs".  He's also keeps his face hidden.  The absence of Konoko's father in the story, as well as any mention by Kerr et al. of what became of him, naturally leads people to speculate….

Re: Mukade's Daodan-like abilities, he certainly has two superpowers (teleportation, Devil Star) like Barabas (Earthquaker, regeneration) and Mutant Muro (push and pull), so we always tended to think that he was a Daodan symbiote like Muro and apparently like Barabas too.  You also seemed to confirm this on our old forum when you wrote these two posts.  But that brings up the question of where their Chrysalises would have come from, since the ability of the Syndicate to produce new symbiotes seems to be lacking, perhaps due to the mysterious absence of Hasegawa.

The lesser status of Mukade and Barabas is also implied by a line in the game when Konoko encounters a scientist in Muro's Mountain Compound who says, "You...you're the other prime symbiote!"  This indicates that Muro and Mai are the "real" symbiotes and anyone else with Daodan-like powers is some kind of secondary symbiote.  Does that ring any bells for you after all this time?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#10 20/3/19 8:54

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

RazdByBearz wrote:

The BGI level turned into TCTF HQ. As you probably heard on the full interview with CryMOR, all of the levels in the game ultimately ended up being composites of architectural details that were stripped from various other pieces that the architects had made. The screenshots that you have of BGI were part of a that building, as were a lot of the pieces of TCTF HQ. I think we cut the stuff in the pictures just because it would have been too hard to constrain the movement of the player (you could jump off any of the ledges and get back to the floor) while making it impossible for the AI to run after you. I wanted to minimize kiting scenarios where the player could escape from the AI and leave them trapped behind closed doors.

Ah, that's very interesting, thanks.  We did notice a similarity between the BGI pics and the architecture in some other levels.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#11 21/3/19 14:05

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen, it could also be this way:
You need at least two partners for a symbiosis so prime symbiote could simply refer to the human host making the Daodan secondary - it cannot exist on its own - unless Imago stage is reached but then there would be only one being wink
This would reduce the number of "official" Daodan host to the two Hasegawa children and let remain Mukade and Baba only Daodan-like.

Anyway, yeah, where the hell is Hasegawa?
Hardy, what do you think happened to him?

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#12 4/4/19 13:35

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:
RazdByBearz wrote:
s10k wrote:

3 - Who is Mukade? smile

A: If I recall correctly (and forgive me, but this was a long time ago) the megacorporations were experimenting with their own rudimentary forms of genetic manipulation, similar to the Daodan mutates. That's where the Ninja enemies came from. Besides Konoko (of course) Mukade was one of the most advanced Daodan-style mutates from the competition, and the boss of the ninjas.

There's a lot of ambiguity around Mukade.  I think s10k was asking who Mukade is.  Some fans thought it was odd that Konoko starts thinking of her dad while she's chasing the master ninja through Rooftops.  In the cutscene that ensues, Mukade then refuses to acknowledge that he's just "one of Muro's thugs".  He's also keeps his face hidden.  The absence of Konoko's father in the story, as well as any mention by Kerr et al. of what became of him, naturally leads people to speculate….

Re: Mukade's Daodan-like abilities, he certainly has two superpowers (teleportation, Devil Star) like Barabas (Earthquaker, regeneration) and Mutant Muro (push and pull), so we always tended to think that he was a Daodan symbiote like Muro and apparently like Barabas too. But that brings up the question of where their Chrysalises would have come from, since the ability of the Syndicate to produce new symbiotes seems to be lacking, perhaps due to the mysterious absence of Hasegawa.

The lesser status of Mukade and Barabas is also implied by a line in the game when Konoko encounters a scientist in Muro's Mountain Compound who says, "You...you're the other prime symbiote!"  This indicates that Muro and Mai are the "real" symbiotes and anyone else with Daodan-like powers is some kind of secondary symbiote.  Does that ring any bells for you after all this time?

Yeah - it does. I vaguely recall that Muro and Mai were the most advanced examples and that others (like the bosses) were copies. Sadly, I do not recall exactly what all the details were.

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#13 4/4/19 13:44

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

paradox-01 wrote:

Iritscen, it could also be this way:
You need at least two partners for a symbiosis so prime symbiote could simply refer to the human host making the Daodan secondary - it cannot exist on its own - unless Imago stage is reached but then there would be only one being wink
This would reduce the number of "official" Daodan host to the two Hasegawa children and let remain Mukade and Baba only Daodan-like.

Anyway, yeah, where the hell is Hasegawa?
Hardy, what do you think happened to him?

I wanted to name the sequel to Oni ASHIGARU - the Japanese word for spear infantry.

I wanted the story to unfold as a trilogy - ONI, ASHIGARU and then finally JIGOKU. I always thought that Hasegawa was at the heart of a conspiracy to forcibly transform the world into its next evolutionary state, with the Daodan mutates as the apex predators in the new landscape.

The idea was that ASHIGARU was the code name for an orbital weapons platform, poised to scour the Earth. I don't recall exactly why, but I do remember that Hasegawa was behind it.

I don't know if you guys know this or not, but in the original scripts for ONI, the thing that killed Hasegawa's wife was a gigantic fish. He and his wife were rowing across a lake in the toxic wastelands when a massive fish upset their boat. He made it to shore, but he was forced to watch as his wife was devoured. That's what drove him nuts - the notion that a non-predatory fish was somehow now higher up on the food chain than human beings. That's what pushed him to create the Daodan technology in the first place. But my team rebelled against the fish scene. In my mind, it would have been like a super-creepy scene from the early 80's horror movie Prophecy (the one about the bear, not the one about the angels). But they just never found the idea of a giant fish that scary, so ultimately we settled on the poison thorns.

Another funny story - I remember telling Alex Seropian that I wanted to name the sequel ASHIGARU and he laughed in my face and told me that the sequel (if there was one) would be named Oni 2.

#feelsbad

Last edited by RazdByBearz (4/4/19 13:53)

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#14 4/4/19 14:08

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

s10k wrote:

Thanks a lot RazdByBearz!

Some more questions below:

1 - People found out that there were a "kickable objects" physics feature in the engine being worked on:

Do you remember what were there plans for this feature and how it would integrate in the final game?


I think these were cut because we didn't have a clear gameplay use for them, and the feature was incomplete.



2 - Seems that there were other airport level in works (known as Airport Part Deux):

Do you remember anything about this level? Was it supposed to be an extension the airport levels, between the level 4 and level 6?

Yeah - I think the original plan was to have a level inside, then another where you go out onto the runway and then finally a third where you come back inside. Cut for time.

3 - Talking about airport the following unreachable room was discovered in the second airport level:

Do you remember if there was any purpose for it? Or was it just another test room?

Remember that these spaces were carved up and repurposed from other stuff. This was likely an area that we just couldn't populate with encounters and decorators, and so Dave Dunn tried to use the camera restricting boxes (the black stuff) to prevent players from going there.

4 - Was the Mad / Happy bomber "easter egg" intended or not?

I think this was a holdover from the model's original face. I created the bomber enemy type, and we stitched him together out of pieces of uniform from other enemies and workers.

5 - There was any major level that has been cut from the final release? (maybe airport part deux?) What do you remember from them?

I am sure I will have more questions (and the community as well), I will post later on once I remember.

We stretched the amount of playable space right out to the barely acceptable edges. So for example - huge swaths of the airport levels look terrible (seeing them now) - with very little in the way of decoration or detail. I've always been very sensitive to how content is presented to players. I prefer to dole out decorators, weapons and enemies across the breadth of a game, so new stuff is being introduced all the time. Often we just didn't have the resources (read: people) to make new sets of objects, and we certainly didn't have more bad guys. So in quite a few cases, we'd scale levels back so that we were getting more "bang for the buck" from what we had.

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#15 4/4/19 14:13

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:

One more question for now, do you recall when in development the voice actors came in to do their work?  I would think it must have been late in the process, once you had the final dialogue worked out.

The VO sessions were held off-site, and late - many after the gameplay for the levels had been set. I don't recall if they were held in Chicago with Marty, but they were definitely out of the office. AND I WAS NOT THERE because I had too much work to do making the game.

The one thing I will never forget (nor forgive) is that when the VO came back to me, the word Daodan was pronounced "Day-O-Dan" by the actors.

That was fucking Hamilton Chu. The actors asked him how the word was pronounced, and he said, "Oh, I don't know... Day-O-Dan maybe?"

So that's what they went with.

That is NOT how that word is pronounced. And nor was it EVER pronounced that way in the story planning sessions. He knew better, and if we really didn't know, he could have called me to ask.

"Day-o-dan..."

That still infuriates me to this very day.

#smdh

Last edited by RazdByBearz (4/4/19 14:15)

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#16 4/4/19 16:57

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

Wow, thanks for all the answers.  I was hoping you hadn't left us!

RazdByBearz wrote:

I always thought that Hasegawa was at the heart of a conspiracy to forcibly transform the world into its next evolutionary state, with the Daodan mutates as the apex predators in the new landscape.

The idea was that ASHIGARU was the code name for an orbital weapons platform, poised to scour the Earth. I don't recall exactly why, but I do remember that Hasegawa was behind it.

That's very interesting.  It also mirrors some of my own thinking about what I would do if I was writing Oni 2.  I imagined Hasegawa being more of an adversary for Konoko (Mai) than a helpful father.  At the end of Oni, Konoko still seems to think that the Daodan will be mankind's salvation, but I imagined her becoming more doubtful about that conclusion as Oni 2 went on, and particularly after meeting her father.  By the way, your idea of Hasegawa as maniacal evolver of humanity is reminiscent of the anime Blue Sub No. 6: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Subm … o._6#Story.  I'd ask if it was an influence on your writing, but it didn't come out in the States until shortly after you'd written Oni, so I doubt you could have been aware of it at the time.

Did you have a reason in mind for why Hasegawa is absent from the Syndicate at the time of Oni, rather than helping them create more Chrysalises?  He was taken there with Muro by force, so maybe he simply escaped later?  Even Muro doesn't seem to know where he is, or else he thinks he's dead, at least based on what little Muro says in-game: "Join me or die like all the others, choking on dead air and foul water. I have accomplished everything our father dreamed of doing."

I don't know if you guys know this or not, but in the original scripts for ONI, the thing that killed Hasegawa's wife was a gigantic fish. He and his wife were rowing across a lake in the toxic wastelands when a massive fish upset their boat. He made it to shore, but he was forced to watch as his wife was devoured. That's what drove him nuts - the notion that a non-predatory fish was somehow now higher up on the food chain than human beings.

No, we'd never heard that before, very interesting!  I also had some ideas along these lines in my fan writings about Oni 2, where all animals are stepping up to super-versions of themselves due to the Daodan organism infecting them, and humans need the Daodan Chrysalis just to keep up.  But I believe your original conception of the Daodan was that it was invented by Hasegawa and purely intended to be applied to humans.  So was it pollution that caused plants and animals to become so dangerous?  Regular industrial pollution that built up over time, or something more?

Another funny story - I remember telling Alex Seropian that I wanted to name the sequel ASHIGARU and he laughed in my face and told me that the sequel (if there was one) would be named Oni 2.

For what it's worth, Cyan really regretted naming the sequel to Myst "Riven".  In hindsight they wished that they had called it "Myst 2: Riven", since many people did not know that the games were connected and it probably hurt sales.  From the next game onward, the developers always called the games "Myst x: Subtitle".


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#17 4/4/19 16:59

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

RazdByBearz wrote:

The VO sessions were held off-site, and late - many after the gameplay for the levels had been set. I don't recall if they were held in Chicago with Marty, but they were definitely out of the office. AND I WAS NOT THERE because I had too much work to do making the game.

The one thing I will never forget (nor forgive) is that when the VO came back to me, the word Daodan was pronounced "Day-O-Dan" by the actors.

Yikes, so we've been saying it wrong all this time?!  What was your intended pronunciation?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#18 4/4/19 18:03

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:
RazdByBearz wrote:

The VO sessions were held off-site, and late - many after the gameplay for the levels had been set. I don't recall if they were held in Chicago with Marty, but they were definitely out of the office. AND I WAS NOT THERE because I had too much work to do making the game.

The one thing I will never forget (nor forgive) is that when the VO came back to me, the word Daodan was pronounced "Day-O-Dan" by the actors.

Yikes, so we've been saying it wrong all this time?!  What was your intended pronunciation?

I say "dow-dan". However, at this point, I'm probably in a very small minority! You may say it however feels natural to you - I won't be offended :-)

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#19 4/4/19 18:13

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:

Wow, thanks for all the answers.  I was hoping you hadn't left us!

RazdByBearz wrote:

I always thought that Hasegawa was at the heart of a conspiracy to forcibly transform the world into its next evolutionary state, with the Daodan mutates as the apex predators in the new landscape.

The idea was that ASHIGARU was the code name for an orbital weapons platform, poised to scour the Earth. I don't recall exactly why, but I do remember that Hasegawa was behind it.

That's very interesting.  It also mirrors some of my own thinking about what I would do if I was writing Oni 2.  I imagined Hasegawa being more of an adversary for Konoko (Mai) than a helpful father.  At the end of Oni, Konoko still seems to think that the Daodan will be mankind's salvation, but I imagined her becoming more doubtful about that conclusion as Oni 2 went on, and particularly after meeting her father.  By the way, your idea of Hasegawa as maniacal evolver of humanity is reminiscent of the anime Blue Sub No. 6.  I'd ask if it was an influence on your writing, but it didn't come out in the States until shortly after you'd written Oni, so I doubt you could have been aware of it at the time.

Did you have a reason in mind for why Hasegawa is absent from the Syndicate at the time of Oni, rather than helping them create more Chrysalises?  He was taken there with Muro by force, so maybe he simply escaped later?  Even Muro doesn't seem to know where he is, or else he thinks he's dead, at least based on what little Muro says in-game: "Join me or die like all the others, choking on dead air and foul water. I have accomplished everything our father dreamed of doing."

I don't know if you guys know this or not, but in the original scripts for ONI, the thing that killed Hasegawa's wife was a gigantic fish. He and his wife were rowing across a lake in the toxic wastelands when a massive fish upset their boat. He made it to shore, but he was forced to watch as his wife was devoured. That's what drove him nuts - the notion that a non-predatory fish was somehow now higher up on the food chain than human beings.

No, we'd never heard that before, very interesting!  I also had some ideas along these lines in my fan writings about Oni 2, where all animals are stepping up to super-versions of themselves due to the Daodan organism infecting them, and humans need the Daodan Chrysalis just to keep up.  But I believe your original conception of the Daodan was that it was invented by Hasegawa and purely intended to be applied to humans.  So was it pollution that caused plants and animals to become so dangerous?  Regular industrial pollution that built up over time, or something more?

Another funny story - I remember telling Alex Seropian that I wanted to name the sequel ASHIGARU and he laughed in my face and told me that the sequel (if there was one) would be named Oni 2.

For what it's worth, Cyan really regretted naming the sequel to Myst "Riven".  In hindsight they wished that they had called it "Myst 2: Riven", since many people did not know that the games were connected and it probably hurt sales.  From the next game onward, the developers always called the games "Myst x: Subtitle".

That's an interesting point about Myst. Still - the artist in me would love to have three different titles - each with its own allusions to the in-game story. Konoko is the Demon. The Ashigaru was the Spear through the heart of the old world and Jigoku is the hellish landscape of the future that Konoko has to navigate to lead human survivors to safety.

Yeah, the source of the changing world was pollution accelerated by predatory/extractionist activities on the part of megacorporations. Remember - BGI stands for Bad Guys International ;-) I do love the idea of some of the changes in the ecosphere happening because of Daodan infections in the food chain though - that's awesome. I'm totally making that a part of my head-canon now.

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#20 4/4/19 20:55

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

Haha, that's very flattering.  But yes, it might spread up the food chain, you ended up at the same idea that I did.  Perhaps in Oni 2 they are charting the spread of the infection by trophic level.  The visual I had is that some wide area on a map might be level 1-infected, then a smaller area within it could be a hot spot that's infected up to level 2, then a pinpoint within that of level 3 infection, with all areas growing over time.  Mai realizes what a danger the Daodan is and reluctantly sees that she has to stop it — but wait, humans need it to survive.  So she's caught in a dilemma.  Something along those lines.

Btw, I like that you thought of the story as naturally comprising a trilogy.  It would be hard to wrap up everything in one more game, so I would have loved to see two more games as well.  It's great to hear what you had in mind for them.

And wow, okay, "dow-dan", I'll have to wrap my head around that.  That makes more sense, though, especially if it's supposed to be a word in a language such as Chinese.  Say... where did you get that word from anyway?  I've always wanted to get a chance to ask you that.  We've tried to figure out its origin over the years, to no avail.

And one more question for now, if you don't mind: Konoko's final Daodan spike at the end of the game... it knocks down Griffin and company if they're still around at the end of the fight (in the spared-Griffin scenario), and they don't get up again.  Was that intended to mean that they get killed by it, or just knocked out?  This is a long-standing debate in the fandom, just so you're aware :-)


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#21 6/4/19 12:16

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:

And wow, okay, "dow-dan", I'll have to wrap my head around that.  That makes more sense, though, especially if it's supposed to be a word in a language such as Chinese.  Say... where did you get that word from anyway?  I've always wanted to get a chance to ask you that.  We've tried to figure out its origin over the years, to no avail.

The origin is a Chinese word. It means to cause or stir up trouble. I would include a link for you, but apparently, I don't have enough forum privileges for that.

Iritscen wrote:

And one more question for now, if you don't mind: Konoko's final Daodan spike at the end of the game... it knocks down Griffin and company if they're still around at the end of the fight (in the spared-Griffin scenario), and they don't get up again.  Was that intended to mean that they get killed by it, or just knocked out?  This is a long-standing debate in the fandom, just so you're aware :-)

What does it mean to you? :-)

Last edited by RazdByBearz (6/4/19 12:18)

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#22 6/4/19 17:00

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

Hmm, I thought that link privileges came after making 10 posts, but perhaps it's a different number.

To me personally, the final Daodan spike is only knocking them out, but many fans have suggested that they died.  They've pointed out that this would neatly tie up the question of whether Griffin is alive in Oni 2, as no matter what he either got shot by Konoko, killed in the final fight, or killed by a Daodan surge.  I always thought that interpretation was attributing too much power to Konoko's Daodan surges, but maybe I'm wrong.  I get the impression that you are going to let it remain ambiguous :-)


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#23 7/4/19 13:31

RazdByBearz
Member
Registered: 19/3/19

Re: I'm new here!

Iritscen wrote:

Hmm, I thought that link privileges came after making 10 posts, but perhaps it's a different number.

To me personally, the final Daodan spike is only knocking them out, but many fans have suggested that they died.  They've pointed out that this would neatly tie up the question of whether Griffin is alive in Oni 2, as no matter what he either got shot by Konoko, killed in the final fight, or killed by a Daodan surge.  I always thought that interpretation was attributing too much power to Konoko's Daodan surges, but maybe I'm wrong.  I get the impression that you are going to let it remain ambiguous :-)

Yes - the pulse was fatal. The surge solved a number of problems for us. It made the fight harder by removing the extra help in the stage, as well as wrapping up the branching storyline in which Griffin was left alive.

Since we made Oni, I've watched a number of anime that I've come to love (Nartuo, Attack on Titan) Both of those series have characters that undergo massive transformations while releasing huge bursts of power. In the "perfect" version of Oni (or perhaps in the sequels) a Daodan spike would be an explosion that damages stuff around you, followed by a radical upgrade in your physical abilities.

As an interesting note - when Bungie got bought by Microsoft and we were all relocated to the Pacific Northwest, Bungie West stayed together as a team for a little while. Before we were all sucked into working on HALO, we spent a few months brainstorming our next project, and the idea that we came up with was a third-person action game with shooting and fighting (like Oni), but also including the ability for the player to battle big monsters. Like REALLY big monsters!

I can image scenes where Konoko was traveling the toxic Earth, trying to protect human survivors from big mutant monsters and animals. If the challenge was great enough, she might experience a Daodan Spike and physically transform into higher and more dangerous physical forms. It would have been glorious!

Last edited by RazdByBearz (7/4/19 20:45)

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#24 7/4/19 15:23

HCthenemesis
Member
From: India
Registered: 24/5/15
Website

Re: I'm new here!

Hello Hardy! We had this little email exchange about 5 years ago... an excerpt and a question from there to tell us about:

[...] could tell you about what the Oni team planned to make as a spiritual sequel before we got pulled onto the Halo project. I remember more about that than features we cut ;-)

Please tell us about the stuff beyond features you guys cut ;-) All of it, please! We are beyond mere diehard fans!

Edit: so I read about Ashigaru and Jigoku. I remember the plants and fishes from the CD dialogue when Konoko acquired it from Mukade.

You could definitely use more of Ghost In the Shell plot, albeit twisted. The Laughing Man case is quite twisted and the relstionship between AI tank robots and Motoko, Batou, Togusa et al could be implemented very well!

The Oni 2 leaked videos look really weird now that I hear about what you told us.

Please tell us more about it!

P.S. I was the other person who thought of Daodan pronunciation as "daa-o-daan" and not westernised version wink

Last edited by HCthenemesis (7/4/19 15:45)


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#25 8/4/19 8:49

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: I'm new here!

RazdByBearz wrote:

Yes - the pulse was fatal. The surge solved a number of problems for us. It made the fight harder by removing the extra help in the stage, as well as wrapping up the branching storyline in which Griffin was left alive.

Aw well smile  You win some, you lose some.  I didn't really see a need to have Griffin in an Oni 2 anyway — it feels like his story is complete enough by the time Oni ends.

As an interesting note - when Bungie got bought by Microsoft and we were all relocated to the Pacific Northwest, Bungie West stayed together as a team for a little while. Before we were all sucked into working on HALO, we spent a few months brainstorming our next project, and the idea that we came up with was a third-person action game with shooting and fighting (like Oni), but also including the ability for the player to battle big monsters. Like REALLY big monsters!

I can image scenes where Konoko was traveling the toxic Earth, trying to protect human survivors from big mutant monsters and animals. If the challenge was great enough, she might experience a Daodan Spike and physically transform into higher and more dangerous physical forms. It would have been glorious!

I'm surprised to hear that the BWest team stuck together at all post-Oni.  My impression of the timeline was that BWest members were finishing their work on Oni and then either moving to Redmond or leaving the company, until there was just one guy left working on Oni (the contractor, Stefan Sinclair), and that anyone who had moved to Bungie's new office was immediately caught up in the work on Halo.

Interesting to hear your ideas for the next project — that wasn't the cancelled "Phoenix", right?  I think that was Bungie HQ's next project, not BWest's.  It sounds like you had an idea that was similar to, but predated, Shadow of the Colossus.  I never got to play that one, but I did really enjoy being big in the Ratchet & Clank games, whenever Clank would become super-sized for short gameplay segments.

And yes, it would have been great to see Konoko battling mutant/Daodan-powered enemies with crazy abilities.  I have a lot of ideas on paper about that myself.  You mentioned in this post on our old forum that you also wanted to develop on the notion of the Screaming Cells which come from 'beyond the phase veil'.

Thanks so much for stopping by and providing so much information!  I've already edited parts of our wiki to take this thread into account smile
I have a few more questions, if you don't mind:

- If Griffin is not spared by Konoko and doesn't come to your aid in the final fight, Muro undergoes a monstrous transformation.  Was there a reason why Muro only transforms in the Griffin-less scenario, and not in a fight where he also has to deal with Griffin and his Black Ops backup?

- Is Mukade definitely intended to be dead after his fight with Konoko, or could he have survived thanks to his Daodan powers?  Lots of fans have imagined him playing a role in an Oni 2.

- Did you have any specific ideas for Oni multiplayer before it had to be cut, in terms of gameplay modes, etc.?  After all, you were the MP designer for Halo.  I just don't know if you had time to think much about MP in Oni with everything else that was going on.


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