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#26 31/12/07 23:15

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"Indeed, she is the impulsive little sister. Quite a contrast against Muro, isn't she? ^_^"
I can only say it again: we see a lot of Mai, but in Muro's case a lot is left to speculation.
Some aspects of his character may strike you as obvious and canonical, but are they?

"Establishing an Oni canon is necessary for any modded "Oni 2" games and fanfiction and the like."
My own not-so-recent resolution in that matter is that I will devote myself to the art of understatement.
There will be a lot of problems with a fan-made canon, especially for the actually creative contributors.
Apart from the obvious frustration for those who disagree, it would mean betraying Oni's anime legacy.
However, if you think a canonical overstatement is a good thing you are totally free to develop one smile

"He is _not_ "obviously" impulsive because, as I said, he could very well have been getting information from Shinatama."
I'm merely interpreting a set of very unambiguous voice acting. Tirade on pain as applied to androids, maniacal laughter.
Don't you ignore the actual ingredients of the actual torturing scene. It's quite far from a cold-blooded inquisitional thing.

"Shinatama was unplugged just recently; her information is still quite up-to-date. Muro can chart her future progress pretty accurately from that information, too."
The up-to-dateness of the info in Shinatama's brain is not the point. The point is that she's supposed to be wired to Damocles. That's how the data flows in and out.
How the blam would Muro interface with her in the generator room of an atmospheric conversion center? Oral Q&A session? Telepathy? Comguy's laptop? Tell me.

"Konoko is not going to lead the Syndicate even if she kills Muro, and they know it based on what they've seen her do."
Maybe I haven't been clear. Mai is the one who can kill Muro and that's enough out of her. They'll find another leader.
The "they" here are obviously not random Strikers but Muro's more or less immediate subordinates. Conspirators.
Then again, the hierarchy of Muro's Strikers is an interesting subject by itself. Like, is there a hierarchy at all? smile

"So you can't confuse Griffin's TCTF branch with the entire thing; we have no indication that he's even told any other branches about Konoko or his inside knowledge on the source of Muro's abilities."
I agree with the first point (and with the detailed analysis you gave in your post). However, I don't think "Terrance Griffin" can conceal a project such as Daodan from the "Directorate" (cf Chapter 9) wink

"Which still doesn't make your declaration of "insanity" a valid response to the completely unrelated analysis of his _tactical_ ability!"
You're picturing Muro as a brilliant and absolutely non-impulsive bad guy. I'm disagreeing and pointing out complementary aspects.
He's gratuitously sadistic when it comes to Shinatama, and he's irresponsibly cocky when it comes to Mai. Apart from that, he keeps cool.

His defensive retaliation against Konoko at the beginning versus his active interference in Konoko's efforts to learn about her past later show a change in his attitude towards her that is linked temporally to Shinatama's torture, and thus it seems logical that it is linked due to the action itself. He seems to have gotten information about her progress that makes him consider her more of an immediate threat than he'd originally considered her to be.

I'm sorry, but that's a massive amount of interpretation there. From the mission objective in Chapter 9 to "You're one of Muro's thugs, nothing more!", Muro's involvement in Mukade's operation is Mai's wishful thinking. It just might be correct, but I don't see why you would make a canonical overstatement out of it. Since it's all connected, I'd like to remind that the RSB archives about Konoko's life are "light security, nothing special", and thus are possibly elaborate fakes covering up the actual info on the Daodan project (stored at Griffin's HQ and at the Science Prison). Would there be anything worth stealing there, as far as Muro is concerned? (I mean stealing info "from Mai" rather than gathering info "about Mai")
And of course your train of thought comes back to Shinatama's torturing which, given the absence of a proper interface or archivated databases, is probably the least effective way to retrieve quantitative info about Mai's symbiosis... and for that matter the torturing we see doesn't look like an interrogation at all: to me it looks like a gratuitously sadistic act, revolving about the ability of civilian SLDs to feel pain.

Fighting is a last resort for him,  just as with Mukade. In the Airport Assault, he could easily have killed Konoko right then and there, as his progression had occurred far more quickly than hers (Mai's seems to have caught up rapidly due to the kidnapping, torture, and death of Shinatama, a factor neither Muro nor Griffin considered), but he let his goons attempt to handle it just as Mukade allowed his ninja to fight Konoko before finally deciding that he needed to deal with her himself.

You are right to draw a parallel between the two hot pursuits, but in every case there might be a reason why Muro/Mukade allows Mai to tail him. At the Airport, Mai has just owned Barabas and a few dozen Strikers, yet Muro doesn't even bother to set up ambushes (and at the end of Chapter 3 he explicitly tells his fellow comguy not to take her out). At the end of Chapter 5, the same fellow comguy (the same one that attends Shinatama's torturing BTW) tells us why: Muro asked him to monitor Mai throughout Chapters 4 and 5. The goons were no match for Mai, and only slowed her down; this just might be the effect Muro was counting on. What does that mean about his willingness to confront Mai? Well, maybe he does want to fight her, but... later.
Actually, I think that while you may be right for Mukade (he resorts to fighting only when there's no other way at all), Muro is more of a cocky bastard than your canon would have it. His characterization through voice acting is clearly that of a violent youth. As for his leadership qualities, apart from charisma, he certainly has tactical skills of his own, but I wouldn't exclude the presence of a powerful advisor. That comguy who tails him looks like he's taking orders from Muro, but then again Mai thinks the same of Mukade, and what does he tell her? "We shall see..."

"Mai's seems to have caught up rapidly due to the kidnapping, torture, and death of Shinatama, a factor neither Muro nor Griffin considered"
Agreed, although I think Muro was all the happier as his sister was more of a match for him. He's cocky when it comes to rivals. She is one.

"Muro may use intuition in his planning, arguably augmented by the Chrysalis (the brain is an internal organ as well), but it's still in his _planning_."
Why would you exclude the more irrational kind of intuition? Just because you don't want Muro to improvise doesn't mean he doesn't want to, either.

What do they care about a "near-human" analysis of Konoko, especially Griffin? At no point is any information on Konoko's status aside from statistical biological data discussed by the TCTF scientists with regard to Shinatama's information (please correct me if I'm wrong on that count, in which case I will concede this point). Thus, the brain engrams would've been extraneous if they functioned only as you're suggesting.

The primary purpose of brain engrams is not to monitor the engram donor via a neural link: the engrams are the very soul of the SLD - without Mai's engrams, Shinatama would have been little more than a lump of synthetic flesh.
It just so happens that civilian SLDs (as opposed to Tankers) are often neurolinked to their donor in pretty much the same way as Shinatama is to Mai (the applications described in Oni are on-site debriefing and navigation for crime- and fire-fighters).
The brain engrams help synchronize the neural link (whatever that means) and enable the transfer of information to start with. This information can be either processed by the SLD and/or forwarded to the human staff for direct monitoring.
So that's (IMO) the only role of the brain engrams as far as monitoring is concerned: they allow the SLD to maintain a permanent connection to the donor, and to receive biometric data. The human staff can claim direct access to that data.
As a side effect, the brain engrams allow the SLD to interpret the received information subjectively, and more generally to empathize with the donor. This is truly a side effect, and the operators have no direct use for such a "feature".

The tracker figured out the general area of the compound, but it would still take a while to figure out the exact location because the tracker was removed in mid-flight. As the diary of the last level states, the tracker figured out a general position, and the type of plane being used (a VTOL) narrows down possible landing sites further as mentioned in the Airport Cargo Hangars diary. The TCTF was in the process of locating the compound based on that information and might even have done so by the time they were attacked, but whether or not they had is a moot point since Shinatama's capture caused Konoko to ignore Griffin's orders and go after her, then go rogue.

I never thought about the tracker that way, and now that you've detailed it it makes perfect sense. I'd even canonize it, were it not for my cult of understatement wink

Last edited by geyser (31/12/07 23:32)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#27 1/1/08 5:53

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 1/9/07

Re: Muro speculation

i still think that Muro isn't acting logically, he is daoden, the embodiment of untamed emotion, so he'd probably know how much it would effect Konoko to have someone "close" to her being kidnapped. How did he know this? He has tankers, they are based on people too.
Did i post somewhere else that i don't think that Muro is actually the boss, as the manual suggests...
forgive me if that is a little odd, i'm slipping between being nocturnal and diurnal- so i'm a bit insane at the moment.

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#28 1/1/08 9:37

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

geyser wrote:

I can only say it again: we see a lot of Mai, but in Muro's case a lot is left to speculation.
Some aspects of his character may strike you as obvious and canonical, but are they?

Err, yes, because they're obvious and canonical.

geyser wrote:

My own not-so-recent resolution in that matter is that I will devote myself to the art of understatement.
There will be a lot of problems with a fan-made canon, especially for the actually creative contributors.
Apart from the obvious frustration for those who disagree, it would mean betraying Oni's anime legacy.
However, if you think a canonical overstatement is a good thing you are totally free to develop one smile

That's what we're doing with all these threads, no?

geyser wrote:

"He is _not_ "obviously" impulsive because, as I said, he could very well have been getting information from Shinatama."
I'm merely interpreting a set of very unambiguous voice acting. Tirade on pain as applied to androids, maniacal laughter.
Don't you ignore the actual ingredients of the actual torturing scene. It's quite far from a cold-blooded inquisitional thing.

A: There's no reason he can't take pleasure in the torture in addition to doing it for a good reason. B: Acting like that is a great way to intimidate Shinatama further and get her to spit out all her information.

geyser wrote:

The up-to-dateness of the info in Shinatama's brain is not the point. The point is that she's supposed to be wired to Damocles. That's how the data flows in and out.
How the blam would Muro interface with her in the generator room of an atmospheric conversion center? Oral Q&A session? Telepathy? Comguy's laptop? Tell me.

...That's why he DIDN'T. That's why he tortured her and got the information verbally.

geyser wrote:

Maybe I haven't been clear. Mai is the one who can kill Muro and that's enough out of her. They'll find another leader.
The "they" here are obviously not random Strikers but Muro's more or less immediate subordinates. Conspirators.
Then again, the hierarchy of Muro's Strikers is an interesting subject by itself. Like, is there a hierarchy at all? smile

Why would they want to get rid of Muro and find another leader? He's kept the Syndicate "one step ahead of" the TCTF at all times even by the TCTF's own admission. He's their best shot. Why find someone less competent, less powerful, and probably more willing to throw away their lives uselessly?

geyser wrote:

I agree with the first point (and with the detailed analysis you gave in your post). However, I don't think "Terrance Griffin" can conceal a project such as Daodan from the "Directorate" (cf Chapter 9) wink

On the contrary, I think that console you're quoting suggests that he _is_ concealing the Daodan Symbiote project, and the Directorate has received hints of his secret operations which have caused them to begin investigating him. Thanks for pointing out that console; I'd forgotten about that.

geyser wrote:

You're picturing Muro as a brilliant and absolutely non-impulsive bad guy. I'm disagreeing and pointing out complementary aspects.

No, I'm not. He's just the least impulsive character in Oni. Everyone's got limits.

geyser wrote:

He's gratuitously sadistic when it comes to Shinatama, and he's irresponsibly cocky when it comes to Mai. Apart from that, he keeps cool.

Nowhere do we see that he's cocky when it comes to Mai. Barabas is, and Muro warns him against that, sends troops rather than attacking Mai directly on the off-chance that she'll prove more powerful than he expected and he'll lose, gathers information on her from Shinatama via torture that is _not_ gratuitously sadistic, et cetera. You have yet to give me any examples of this cockiness you keep claiming is present.

geyser wrote:

From the mission objective in Chapter 9 to "You're one of Muro's thugs, nothing more!", Muro's involvement in Mukade's operation is Mai's wishful thinking. It just might be correct, but I don't see why you would make a canonical overstatement out of it.

Oh, c'mon, you're not still on this completely unfounded idea that Mukade is Mai's father and doing this all for his own purposes, are you?! Mukade didn't just have his ninjas on the rooftops: there were Strikers and Muro's best troops, the Furies, as well. There is no doubt that he was directly supporting Mukade's activities.

geyser wrote:

Since it's all connected, I'd like to remind that the RSB archives about Konoko's life are "light security, nothing special", and thus are possibly elaborate fakes covering up the actual info on the Daodan project (stored at Griffin's HQ and at the Science Prison). Would there be anything worth stealing there, as far as Muro is concerned? (I mean stealing info "from Mai" rather than gathering info "about Mai")

The RSB databases are civilian archives, as compared to the TCTF's high-security information which is protected by the best security possible in the Oni world, or even the Syndicate databases, which are nearly as good. Of course the RSB's archives are "light security" relative to what she's used to handling. Going from that to the idea that they're "elaborate fakes" is not even _close_ to a valid logical step.

geyser wrote:

You are right to draw a parallel between the two hot pursuits, but in every case there might be a reason why Muro/Mukade allows Mai to tail him. At the Airport, Mai has just owned Barabas and a few dozen Strikers, yet Muro doesn't even bother to set up ambushes (and at the end of Chapter 3 he explicitly tells his fellow comguy not to take her out). At the end of Chapter 5, the same fellow comguy (the same one that attends Shinatama's torturing BTW) tells us why: Muro asked him to monitor Mai throughout Chapters 4 and 5. The goons were no match for Mai, and only slowed her down; this just might be the effect Muro was counting on. What does that mean about his willingness to confront Mai? Well, maybe he does want to fight her, but... later.

The goons were no match for Mai because they _couldn't_ have been. Muro didn't have enough forces at the airport to stop Mai, even at her current power level. He tells the Communications Striker not to take her out because that wouldn't have been _possible_. She'd just taken out Barabas; no one was left who was powerful enough to beat her. Muro could've killed her and that's the only way she'd've gone down, and he didn't want to waste his time doing that and delay his escape long enough that the TCTF could've sent enough reinforcements to take him.

geyser wrote:

His characterization through voice acting is clearly that of a violent youth.

He enjoys violence when he's killing, but he's still patient and cunning enough to know _when_ to kill and when to run.

geyser wrote:

As for his leadership qualities, apart from charisma, he certainly has tactical skills of his own, but I wouldn't exclude the presence of a powerful advisor. That comguy who tails him looks like he's taking orders from Muro, but then again Mai thinks the same of Mukade, and what does he tell her? "We shall see..."

"We shall see," he says, and then he gets pwnt. Enough with the wild guesses, seriously. Give me examples of Muro showing at any point that he's not completely in control of the Syndicate before you make such a claim.

geyser wrote:

Why would you exclude the more irrational kind of intuition? Just because you don't want Muro to improvise doesn't mean he doesn't want to, either.

Plans only go perfectly when your enemies are incompetent, and Griffin is not. Every plan requires some improvisation to account for the little things that go wrong. But he's still out-planning Griffin, one of the best TCTF tacticians there is.

geyser wrote:

So that's (IMO) the only role of the brain engrams as far as monitoring is concerned: they allow the SLD to maintain a permanent connection to the donor, and to receive biometric data. The human staff can claim direct access to that data.
As a side effect, the brain engrams allow the SLD to interpret the received information subjectively, and more generally to empathize with the donor. This is truly a side effect, and the operators have no direct use for such a "feature".

...Okay. You're agreeing by trying to disagree. Huh?

LSAC, you're being self-contradictory by claiming that Muro isn't acting logically and yet is using logic to attack Konoko subtly via Shinatama.


Work in progress...

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#29 1/1/08 13:49

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"Err, yes, because they're obvious and canonical." Nope. Your wish. Oni's writers were careful to leave a lot of things understated.
"That's what we're doing with all these threads, no?" You certainly have your sights set on a canon, but I work differently. Sorry.

@ Griffin: "I think that console you're quoting suggests that he _is_ concealing the Daodan Symbiote project"
It's an interesting possibility, but the case needs to be made as for how Griffin can have avoided any leaks.
The project has a massive infrastructure and mobilizes a large scientific staff (admittedly it's a prison, but...)

With the Big Brother in mind, I find it hard to believe that Griffin's Daodan initiative was a well-kept secret.
The investigations may be aimed at unveiling compromising aspects, to shut it down as excessively risky.
Back when the project started, there was not enough reserve, but Mai's symbiosis provided new material.

For one thing, it had become clear that the integration is a virtually irreversible, cancer-like process.
For another, Mai had been displaying uncontrollable bursts of aggressivity (so-called Daodan spikes).
I'd understand the Directorate if it wanted to file a very negative report on that as soon as possible.

@ SLDs: "...Okay. You're agreeing by trying to disagree. Huh?" I didn't try to disagree. Our exchange had introduced some confusion about Oni's "brain engram" and "neural link" concepts as applied to Shinatama, so I chose to develop my understanding of how they work, "from scratch": not a counterargument to any of your points, just a clean overview of my own interpretation. Since you seem to be satisfied with those details, we can indeed call it an agreement.

"That's why he tortured her and got the information verbally." OK, so verbally. What kind of things do you suppose he asked her?
It's not like she'll start spitting out figures of the latest updates she gave to Griffin (which were actually falsified/downplayed, BTW)
The latest reports are backed up in neat, human-readable form at the TCTF HQ and Muro knows it. Yet he ignored them completely.
It would have been enough to point a gun at a TCTF guy during the raid to gain access to the secure framework and loot for data.
Yet somehow cunning old Muro prefers putting megavolts through an unplugged android, complete with laughing and monologuing.

And what if SLDs don't talk under torture the way humans do? What if they just scream and whine, after having erased any info?
Also note that Shinatama doesn't mention giving away dangerous information to Muro when Mai finds her. "He hurt me, Konoko."
Of course she may simply not have had the time to warn her of everything, all the less so as Mai was rather obtuse. However...
There is no hard proof of Muro asking Shinatama any questions about the current stage of Mai's symbiosis. Isn't that correct? smile

@ sadistic torturing: "Acting like that is a great way to intimidate Shinatama further and get her to spit out all her information."
One of my impressions about the torturing scene we get to see is that Muro is not considering Shinatama as an interlocutor at all.
She's an "it" for him, an "it" he could monologue at for ages, but not "someone" he'd talk to (interrogation is a form of dialogue).
That's just my impression, of course. Maybe he was very practical the minute before. Or left it to the Comguy to ask "it" questions.
But in the lack of hard proof supporting the interrogation, we could just as well allow for the possibility that there never was one...
Right?


"Give me examples of Muro showing at any point that he's not completely in control of the Syndicate before you make such a claim."
There is no proof of that, but neither is there definite proof that he is completely in control. Do not betray Oni's understatement smile
Please remember that I am not making any "claims" in this game when it comes to crucial elements. I'm entertaining possibilities.

"He's their best shot. Why find someone less competent, less powerful, and probably more willing to throw away their lives uselessly?"
Muro has alienated the Syndicate and has been leading his men towards STURMANDERUNG, which may look like a dead-end to many.
As for not throwing Striker lives away uselessly, Mai's advent certainly made that aspect of Muro's leadership appear in a new light.

"You have yet to give me any examples of this cockiness you keep claiming is present." He teases her at the Airport.
He teases her twice. The second time he stays back just for the sake of monologuing at her. Isn't that cocky enough?
"He enjoys violence when he's killing, but he's still patient and cunning enough to know _when_ to kill and when to run."
That much is true. I suppose he had a very good reason to fight Mai in the last Chapter instead of staying on the run?

My impression (let's not call it a point) is that whenever it comes to Mai, Muro becomes mocking, ironic... well, cocky.
Not cocky in the same stupid way as Barabas is ("oh boy, is the gonna get it! oh boy, is she gonna get it!"), of course.
Muro's relationship with the rival that is Mai is different. He's looking forward to fighting her later. When she's worthy.
In that sense, the Strikers Mai defeats on the way to him are like contestants in a huge tournament hosted by Muro.
Again, I'm not asking you to adopt that point of view, but merely to allow for it, insofar as Oni's plot elements do smile

"Oh, c'mon, you're not still on this completely unfounded idea that Mukade is Mai's father and doing this all for his own purposes, are you?! Mukade didn't just have his ninjas on the rooftops: there were Strikers and Muro's best troops, the Furies, as well. There is no doubt that he was directly supporting Mukade's activities."
You obviously love radical argumentation techniques, but I'd advise you not to use, e.g., "there is no doubt" for your stuff and "completely unfounded" for mine.
That Mukade is (or used to be, or used to know) Hasegawa is an idea with some substance to it, so if you dismiss it as "completely unfounded", you're cheating.
Also, you're forgetting that the TNZ thing is no more than a possibilty that I'd like to entertain, insofar as Oni's amount of (intended) understatement allows for it.
I am not aiming to prove that Mukade is Mai's kin, but I want it to be a credible enough theory, suitable as a false track in a decently complex epilogue or sequel.
If you focus on establishing as a canon that Mukade was "one of Muro's thugs, nothing more", you will lose the inspiration it takes to develop such alternate truths.

"There is no doubt that he was directly supporting Mukade's activities."
The presence of non-Ninjas is consistent with Mukade being Muro's peer.
As far as I know, there is no hard proof of Mukade not being Muro's peer.
As a peer, he would be entitled to enlist elite troops without asking Muro.
(BTW, you haven't responded to the question about Striker hierarchy...)
I'm not saying he was a peer. I'm just saying Oni's plot allows for that.
If you dismiss such a possibility, you're burning bridges for good luck.

"The goons were no match for Mai because they _couldn't_ have been. Muro didn't have enough forces at the airport to stop Mai, even at her current power level."
He did have more than enough troops to take her out. It's just that they were scattered across the whole area and were apparently not notified of her progression.
There were ridiculously few ambushes for Mai at the Airport. Most of the time she ran into unsuspecting Strikers camping around perimeters they had long secured.

"He tells the Communications Striker not to take her out because that wouldn't have been _possible_."
OK, I'll spare you the Ninja Comguy possibility... but what if the Comguy had a loaded mercury bow?
I note that you seem focused on producing a canonical interpretation of this and every understatement.
I have no such goal, and I will try my best to preserve some ambiguity concerning Muro's Comguy, too.

@ Muro: "He's just the least impulsive character in Oni. Everyone's got limits."
I always thought the least impulsive character in Oni was Griffin. What do you think?
As for the limits, I still think Muro is the kind of guy who is cocky about his rivals smile

"Going from that to the idea that they're "elaborate fakes" is not even _close_ to a valid logical step."
Please don't hurt me. There is no way Daodan-relevant information is stored in RSB's civilian archives.
What, then, can Mai be looking at when she says "my life, all tucked away nice and neat"? A cover-up.
Please keep in mind that as an entertainer of possibilities I am not required to use bulletproof logic smile
After all, hard proof of any overstatement (including yours) is and will remain unavailable to us.
In any case, you'll agree "not even _close_ to a valid logical step" was a rather cheap thing to say.

On a final note, systematically opposing elements of your theory to elements of mine won't pay off.
What makes sense is to test parallel (and possibly quite uncompatible) theories for self-consistence.
So far, your canon fails to account self-consistently for a few elements of Oni's understated plotline.
I will gladly point them out to you, but maybe you should attempt a summary first, like I did for TNZ.
And if you find internal inconsistencies in TNZ, please tell me (don't give me lack of proof, though).
You have to take Oni's material for what it is: a vastly and deliberately understated legacy.
A theory has to provides a self-consisent interpretation of Oni's raw material, no more.

If you confront elements of a theory with another theory, of course you'll get conflicts.
We don't know for sure if Muro asked Shinatama any questions about Mai. We really don't.
Of course a theory that says he did will clash with one that says he didn't. And it's OK, too.
We just have to remember that conflicting theories can coexist within a complex sequel.
And the conflicts we get from juxtaposing different theories allow for a credible quest.

Last edited by geyser (1/1/08 16:02)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#30 2/1/08 11:02

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

I never considered the possibility that Mukade might be a peer of Muro.  I like it, but the line of Konoko's "You're just one of Muro's thugs, nothing more" indicates that he is under Muro, at least in her opinion.  His response is, "We'll see...".  If he was equal to (or more important than) Muro, he would probably chafe at the suggestion, and say, "I don't take orders from that punk", or, "I'm better than Muro".  But saying "We'll see...", well, most people will interpret that as a response to Konoko saying he's a common thug, and "we'll see" just how common he is.  Indeed, he is certainly more than the average thug.  But you would find that most people by far will interpret that line as simply a rise to her challenge as to how good he is, not saying, "We'll see if I'm Muro's underling."  A fight wouldn't answer that question, it would only show her how good a fighter he is.

geyser, your notion of Muro letting Mai rise through the ranks of his subordinates, taking them out to prove her worthiness, is very anime-esque, so for that reason I tend to agree with it.  We know Bungie was going for an anime vibe, and that would go along perfectly with it.  The only thing better would have been if there were more than two bosses before Muro, and if it was clear that Mukade worked for Muro just like Barabas did.  Then, it would be clear that there was a Game-of-Death type story going on here, where Mai would have to ascend through tougher and tougher enemies to prove herself.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#31 2/1/08 19:32

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

I leave for awhile to play with all my new toys and ... look what happens >>;;

Anyone else agree he looks butt ugly as Imago?

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#32 6/1/08 17:59

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"Anyone else agree he looks butt ugly as Imago?" True. Not that the human Murois much nicer. They ruined him smile
Seriously, the Muro you can see in pre-beta screenshots and the 1999 trailer is way better. Can we fix him? Maybe.

"I never considered the possibility that Mukade might be a peer of Muro." Well, I think that's a possibility to consider smile
In the TNZ version, Mukade's "We shall see..." marks his switching from plan A to plan B: to let her think he's a thug.
He tried to hint at his Daodanness, and could have hinted at  his superiority as well, but "that conversation is over"...

"The only thing better would have been if there were more than two bosses before Muro" Suggestions welcome wink
I wouldn't want it to become too much of a game-of-death, though. Otherwise it will distract from other aspects.
Remember that I don't try to make anything crystal clear when it comes to Oni's plot: subtle storyteller wannabe.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#33 6/1/08 22:25

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

As for someone mentioning he wanted the Hasegawa info for himself: Heck, Muro probly heard the story from Hasegawa himself - even if you don't believe in TNZ.

As for his 'cockiness' to Mai: Probably part ruse to intimidate her, and part reality. The only other Daodans we know are Barabas (presumably) and Mukade. He himself could probably beat Barabas like a red headed stepchild, and Mukade is probably not as powerful, either. He is the strongest Daodan out their and he damn well KNOWS it.

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#34 7/1/08 6:17

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"He himself could probably beat Barabas like a red headed stepchild, and Mukade is probably not as powerful, either. He is the strongest Daodan out their and he damn well KNOWS it." Of course he's the strongest, that's why Mai kicks his ass eventually smile
As for Mukade, I'm really not sure. The AI Ninjas own Muro any time.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#35 7/1/08 20:21

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

Eh, Ninjas and Muro really weren't patterned to take each other on.
'Strongest' is a matter of perception, too. I doubt Mai could have taken Muro the way she is at the beginning of the game as well as what he thinks based on the observations he makes.
(More simply: What you THINK is true may not be what IS true.)

Assuming he gets relevant data from Shinitama: She isnt drawing fully on her chrysalis -- even in the end. He might interpret that as a measure of strength. It seems all thats seperating him from the Imago stage is a simple act of will.

Assuming he didnt: What, really, should cause him to doubt him being superior?

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#36 7/1/08 21:20

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 1/9/07

Re: Muro speculation

Ultimatum479 wrote:

LSAC, you're being self-contradictory by claiming that Muro isn't acting logically and yet is using logic to attack Konoko subtly via Shinatama.

like i said: insane lol (not any more)

About that Mukade being Hasegawa, if so, why did he stay and fight Mai when he could of teleported to the next building? - why did he stay and try to kill his own daughter? he would of known she was his daughter because of the hair. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but can someone flesh it out.

No one has answered my Muro isn't the boss question either. Perhaps he's just regional commander for a sector of the Syndicate's "turf", like Griffin is for the TCTF, it is just a feeling though, a guy who has global power (relatively) should be able to call down some more soldiers when he sees everything start to disintergrate.

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#37 8/1/08 0:00

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

I believe some of the terminal text very firmly painted him as a sole ruler of the Syndicate.

Mai had been tearing through more than a decent chunk of his forces, and the whole fight was really sudden. You do kill his guards, backup conveniantly arrives.

And the Mukade=Hasegawa stuff is over on the Mukade thread. I think I asked somethin similar.
And purple hair seems to not be too unique. We see one civvy in one of the airport success screens w/ purple hair.

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#38 8/1/08 5:26

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"About that Mukade being Hasegawa, if so, why did he stay and fight Mai when he could of teleported to the next building? - why did he stay and try to kill his own daughter?"
Mukade is indeed off-topic here (even though it's all connected, actually). Within the TNZ theory, Mukade didn't fight to kill Mai. He let her win and then "dropped" the CD.
Escaping unharmed (with or without the CD) would have frustrated Mai and have caused her to think too much about who Mukade really is: bad idea in her unstable state...

"a guy who has global power (relatively) should be able to call down some more soldiers when he sees everything start to disintergrate." Do you mean the final fight?
We're free to throw in as many troops in the Edition as you think would be fit. As for the original plot, Mai took out most of STURMANDERUNG's garnison aforehand smile
Muro is never mentioned in the terminals, but it's strongly suggested that he radically alienated the Syndicate in its entirety and set its sights on STURMANDERUNG.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#39 8/1/08 19:11

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

Wich would probably take more than regional power to set up the facilities on the global scale. =/

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#40 11/1/08 4:48

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 1/9/07

Re: Muro speculation

Sorry about that bump.
It only takes a handful of soldiers to replace parts before they are shipped off to the ACC if they infiltrate the shipping company that supplies them (first level thing - not really sure). And then send out the trigger via Sattelite.
Say...Why did Muro go to the ACC in the first place? As him hanging around an ACC kind of highlights it as a place of interest to the TCTF.
Or was it because Muro had plenty of infiltrated troops there to slow down any pursuers?

And we don't really know the extent of the ACC "Net" collapse either.

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#41 11/1/08 16:12

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

If you throw in more troops at the end, Mai should get chenilled or something...


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#42 11/1/08 17:14

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

>>LSAC

When you want something done right...do it yourself?

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#43 11/1/08 20:37

Rich begger
Member
Registered: 1/1/08

Re: Muro speculation

LastmanSAC wrote:

About that Mukade being Hasegawa, if so, why did he stay and fight Mai when he could of teleported to the next building? - why did he stay and try to kill his own daughter? he would of known she was his daughter because of the hair. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but can someone flesh it out.
.

I disagree with that statement. Several times I find Mukade teleporting to other buildings where I can't reach him. Obviously this is a glitch in the his scripting but it should still be taken as theory. (and this is during the boss fight not the other parts of the level.)

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#44 12/1/08 5:30

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"Several times I find Mukade teleporting to other buildings where I can't reach him." Since you're the first to report this so far, you'll have to provide a screenshot.
"Obviously this is a glitch in the his scripting but it should still be taken as theory." Glitches are not part of the theory, especially unverifiable or fixeable glitches.
"If you throw in more troops at the end, Mai should get chenilled or something..." Do you mean the actual effect of the chenille cheat (boss shield + eye candy)?

"Say...Why did Muro go to the ACC in the first place? As him hanging around an ACC kind of highlights it as a place of interest to the TCTF." Very good point.
He's basically laying his cards on the table with that move. STURMANDERUNG doesn't look like a diversion at the end, so he's probably just teasing the TCTF.
I don't think the repurposing of an ACC typically requires Muro's presence, so Muro had no reason to be there apart from torturing Shinatama and luring Mai.

"And we don't really know the extent of the ACC "Net" collapse either." Well, Mai sets the tone with "mankind as we knew it is doomed": postapocalyptic.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#45 13/1/08 7:54

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Muro speculation

@ Mukade teleporting to other buildings: http://oni.bungie.org/forums/index.php? … e=22#pager

ZDLO wrote:

Hi hi, new bug (I don't know this).
To geyser: I remember you ask me about Mukade on top of the elevator shaft. So what you say about this? (No scripts/cheats as always). He use his teleport again...

Image.

Last edited by paradox-01 (13/1/08 7:56)

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#46 13/1/08 19:54

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Hm, but ZDLO lured him there, right? It's not like he spontaneously teleports away from you and camps there.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#47 14/1/08 10:12

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

Gumby wrote:

If you throw in more troops at the end, Mai should get chenilled or something...

Mai should be made to worn a wool, cotton, silk, or rayon yarn with protruding pile?

Also, that's a cool bug with Mukade.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#48 14/1/08 10:29

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

...Was that a pun?

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#49 14/1/08 19:54

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Dunno what was Iritscen's point. Maybe he doesn't know the reason behind the name of Oni's "chenille" cheat.
Then again, I have a feeling that the "chenille" cheat is often misunderstood. Few people know just what it does.
"Also, that's a cool bug with Mukade." I don't understand that at all. You mean Barabas and Mukade should glow?
It's not a bug if they don't, because storywise they are just not using overpower when fighting Mai and that's all.

Last edited by geyser (14/1/08 19:55)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#50 14/1/08 20:50

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

Tell me if this should go into a Daodan general thread.

I remember Kerr saying that the two prototypes Mai and Muro were fitted with were based on their own DNA.
When Muro goes Imago, he does look a good deal like Barabas -- purple growths, pale, and horn. While making a symbiote for Barabas might not have been too hard, could Muro have given Barabas a symbiote with his own DNA?

It makes a sort of sense. Kerr went on about how the final form is an expression of the person's true self. I'm no great believer in infinite personality diversity, so I imagine some interpretations would be similar. Unless the Daodan says: "Hmmm. Evil. Horns." or "Hmm. Good. Fluffy wings."

It does tie into Sturmdamerung -- Muro seems to have planned on mass distribution of the Daodan. However, doing that on a massive scale when you have to custom grow a symbiote for each person might be a bit cumbersome.
Maybe Barabas was an attempt at trying to fit people with a universally acceptable chrysalis?

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