Oni Central Forum

A forum for the Oni community

You are not logged in.

#1 27/12/07 18:09

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Muro speculation

Yeah. Do I have time on my hands.

I suppose I'll start off with one question thats bugged me: Why did Muro care about Shinitama?
Well, not that sort of 'care', but rather, why would he want Barabas to retrieve Shinitama?

When he asks Barabas to get her, it seems rather spontaneous. When he does have her, hes basically just pumping ever increasing voltage into her just to hear her scream.

From this, it seems like he is an impulsive and violent youth -- the very image (imago?) of the darker side of the Daodan entity, if you will.

But he successfully usurped the leadership of the Syndicate and managed to reform it into something quite different than it previously was. This takes more than simple strength and charisma -- he had to have some mediocum of intelligence and cunning.

Therefore, he had to have a practical reason to do so.

>> He could have been trying to gather information on Konoko's Chrysalis progress. We only see one tiny little scene on the elevator during that whole @$@#%@%ing level. After that zapping, he could have talked to her about fashion tastes over tea and crumpets as far as we know.
However, the only time he mentions her progress is how impressed he is she got all that way without drawing fully on the Daodan. And thats in the ending where you plugged Griffin. Not in the other.

>> The only other idea is that he intended her to have her falling out with the TCTF. This has two possible reasons.
One, he wanted to have the TCTF deal with her and basically have them weaken themselves taking out a possible threat to him. At the very least, they'd be too busy with each other to deal with him.
It almost worked, too. Mai only arrived in time to LIMIT the destructive potential of Sturmdamerung, not reverse it or stop it entirely. But only alter it so a little less damage was done.
Two, he wanted her to realize the truth and come to resent the TCTF, WCG, etc. and maybe even JOIN him. It might not even be that hard, with a good bit of good persuasion, to capitalize on the familial bond to make her relatively loyal.

Offline

#2 27/12/07 18:43

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

Communications Striker wrote:

I've been monitoring the woman tracking us as you instructed. Scanners indicate a standard comlink as well as a second set of sub dermal transmissions. Analysis suggests that she is neurolinked to an SLD.

Muro wrote:

An android? Interesting. They must be using it to monitor her progress. I want it. Tell Barabas to retrieve it for me.

Emphasis added.

Last edited by Ultimatum479 (27/12/07 18:48)


Work in progress...

Offline

#3 27/12/07 18:54

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"But only alter it so a little less damage was done." I'm not so sure that Mai's actions did any good: "...bought us some time, but at a horrible cost"
(and when she says "bought us some time", she means, eventually to implant Chrysalises as Muro/Hasegawa had planned, which is rather cynical)

"Therefore, he had to have a practical reason to do so." Not convincing. You know he had other reasons to be at the ACC. Shinatama was a bonus.
I don't think he could gather any relevant info on Konoko from Shinatama. All that info is in Damocles (at the TCTF HQ) and at the Science Prison.
However, he was aware of stealing Konoko's soul sister. Konoko's insubordination and Shinatama's explosion followed as very nice half-surprises.
He couldn't reasonably expect her to join him, even less to be loyal to him, because they had hardly ever met at that time: he doesn't know her.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#4 27/12/07 22:58

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Muro speculation

True. So he stole her 'sister' then ... for the fun of it?
Doesn't seem entirely right. But you make a point with the half-suprises...
And how did he know Shinitama was Konoko's? I can't imagine they dont have other SLDs that we simply never saw. Barabas could have homed in on the signal...

So, then. The point. Hmm...
Well, he knows she is Daodan. He knows that, despite her inexperience, she probably has the potential to become a threat.
Then maybe the intent of the kidnapping was to force Konoko into an arena of his choosing to more easily eliminate her. When that failed, he abandoned the SLD as useless.
Which then led to a whole lot of fun things happening.

Offline

#5 28/12/07 6:43

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 1/9/07

Re: Muro speculation

Muro wanted Mai away from the TCTF - to buy him time and split his enemies, Machiavelli would of been proud.

I always have the feeling that Muro is not the one who is reigning in hell but...

Offline

#6 28/12/07 8:20

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

That's pure speculation again. Muro had no way of knowing that kidnapping Shinatama would've triggered Konoko's insubordination; he hadn't watched Konoko enough yet to know that she was that impulsive, and he _definitely_ had no idea she was emotionally attached to the SLD since he'd only just learned of her existence. Any suggestions that he grabbed Shinatama to cause Konoko to act in any way..."Are wild guesses, nothing more!"

From Muro's statement (quoted above), we can be fairly certain that his goal in capturing Shinatama was to analyze Konoko's progress. He'd already stated (during the Airport Assault) that he considered Konoko to be a threat due to her potential. His torturing of Shinatama was most likely to gain information on that potential. We don't know how much he learned, but apparently he found enough information to determine that letting Konoko find out about her past would be dangerous, since she would realize that the origin of her powers was the altruistic goal of saving the world from the polluted atmosphere and would thus be against Muro's plot. Therefore, he sent Mukade to steal that information from the Regional State Building so that he would still have a chance to recruit her by telling her lies later on. Of course, Muro also wanted the information out of curiosity, since he himself didn't yet know everything about his own past.


Work in progress...

Offline

#7 28/12/07 9:10

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

While Muro could have anticipated Mai's insubordination, he obviously could not take it for granted.
No one could have "planned" that, and even less Shinatama's destruction and the ensuing events.
However, Shinatama is the umbilical cord between Griffin's TCTF and Mai. That much is certain smile
So Muro was probably aware of disrupting the TCTF's Daodan program (and pissing off his sister).
That said, I still think Shinatama's kidnapping and torturing was pretty much gratuitous. Why not?
On another note, Muro pretty much disposed of Barabas, as yet another aspect of the operation.

@ U479:
"From Muro's statement (quoted above), we can be fairly certain that his goal in capturing Shinatama was to analyze Konoko's progress."
Your emphasis materializes a non-existing logical link. "I want it" needs not be related to "They must be using it to monitor her progress".

"He'd already stated (during the Airport Assault) that he considered Konoko to be a threat due to her potential."
He had stated that in front of two goons who died shortly afterwards, which I think justified such a statement...

"We don't know how much he learned, but apparently he found enough information to determine that letting Konoko find out about her past would be dangerous, since she would realize that the origin of her powers was the altruistic goal of saving the world from the polluted atmosphere and would thus be against Muro's plot. Therefore, he sent Mukade to steal that information from the Regional State Building so that he would still have a chance to recruit her by telling her lies later on."
Now if that isn't a guess gone wild, what is?
Not that there's anything wrong with those.
smile
"letting Konoko find out about her past would be dangerous, since she would realize that the origin of her powers was the altruistic goal of saving the world from the polluted atmosphere and would thus be against Muro's plot"
He can't take that for granted any more than the insubordination thing. And there is no way a chat with an unplugged Shinatama would offer any insight into such hypothetical behaviour.

Last edited by geyser (28/12/07 9:30)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#8 28/12/07 9:47

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

geyser wrote:

However, Shinatama is the umbilical cord between Griffin's TCTF and Mai. That much is certain smile
So Muro was probably aware of disrupting the TCTF's Daodan program (and pissing off his sister).

Again, that requires assumptions about Konoko's mental state. Muro has no reason to believe that Konoko is emotionally attached enough to Shinatama to be pissed about her capture; the neural link is one-way, after all.

geyser wrote:

On another note, Muro pretty much disposed of Barabas, as yet another aspect of the operation.

The Syndicate doesn't have unlimited resources. I find it unlikely that Muro wanted to get rid of Barabas, since he's Muro's most powerful enforcer aside from perhaps Mukade. He wouldn't waste years of training and lots of money like that. Most likely, Barabas was supposed to leave on the helicopter with Shinatama, but he couldn't resist the chance to get revenge on Konoko for thrashing him earlier.

geyser wrote:

Your emphasis materializes a non-existing logical link. "I want it" needs not be related to "They must be using it to monitor her progress".

Perhaps, but Muro gives no other reason for hunting down the SLD, so that is the most logical link even if it's not foolproof. wink

geyser wrote:

He had stated that in front of two goons who died shortly afterwards, which I think justified such a statement...

...Which means? I don't see the point of your statement.

geyser wrote:

He can't take that for granted any more than the insubordination thing.

No, he can't, but it's best not to take that risk.

geyser wrote:

And there is no way a chat with an unplugged Shinatama would offer any insight into such hypothetical behaviour.

Shinatama knows Konoko after years of studying her and, of course, being programmed with her brain engrams. Unplugged or not, she's a veritable encyclopedia on Mai Hasegawa.


Work in progress...

Offline

#9 28/12/07 10:32

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

I've got to agree 100% with Ultimatum on this topic.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#10 28/12/07 13:57

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Well, with the word "speculation" in the topic title, I wouldn't expect an agreement.
Muro's background is vastly understated; Shinatama's kidnapping is no exception.
There can be multiple interpretations of the events. Some people call it pluralism.

"My" version is that Muro hurt Shinatama, but retrieved no information from her.
The only direct effect of kidnapping Shinatama was to disrupt Mai's monitoring...
That would piss off Griffin, at the very least, and possibly destabilize Mai. Voilà.
As for Barabas, even if he's a son for Muro, he has become largely disposable.
1) STURMANDERUNG draws nigh; 2) "You know the consequences of failure."

U479 wrote:
geyser wrote:

He had stated that in front of two goons who died shortly afterwards, which I think justified such a statement...

...Which means? I don't see the point of your statement.

My point is that Muro was talking only to Mai there, since the other 2 were as good as dead.
I think he can otherwise not afford making such a statement in front of live subordinates...
That a TCTF agent has a potential similar to his and "could pose a threat" to him? "Never!"

Last edited by geyser (28/12/07 17:11)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#11 28/12/07 19:05

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

geyser wrote:

...Muro hurt Shinatama, but retrieved no information from her.
The only direct effect of kidnapping Shinatama was to disrupt Mai's monitoring...
That would piss off Griffin, at the very least, and possibly destabilize Mai. Voilà.

Pissing off Griffin isn't a good thing for Muro. The TCTF isn't totally focused on destroying the Syndicate; they do have other jobs. Angering Griffin means his branch of the TCTF, which is well-situated to meddle with Syndicate operations judging by events during Oni, will focus a lot more on just defeating the Syndicate, which makes STURMANDERUNG less likely to go unnoticed until its completion. Destabilizing Mai is also a bad thing: Konoko is a "human" (barely) weapon, and controlling or disarming weapons is how you deal with them, not triggering them and pointing them at yourself. "Destabilizing" Mai is essentially playing Russian Roulette with a helluva lot more bullets in the barrel than there should be, and even if Muro can take a few shots to the head, he has limitations, and there's no need to have to deal with 'em.

geyser wrote:

As for Barabas, even if he's a son for Muro, he has become largely disposable.
1) STURMANDERUNG draws nigh; 2) "You know the consequences of failure."

The first isn't a valid reason at all. Muro's plot is more likely to occur when he has his best enforcer to deal with potential complications. STURMANDERUNG "draws nigh", you said; that's much different from it being _over_. Barabas is more needed than ever. As for the second, Muro wouldn't punish his best enforcer with death and throw away years of training, especially considering my aforementioned point. That would be the kind of impulsive move Konoko would make, while Muro shows himself to be quite cunning and patient throughout Oni.

geyser wrote:

My point is that Muro was talking only to Mai there, since the other 2 were as good as dead.

That doesn't make his statement any less valid. If he wanted to lie to Mai, he'd do it in the other direction, telling her how weak she was compared to him so as to demoralize her.


Work in progress...

Offline

#12 29/12/07 6:54

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

The current argument is best seen as the parallel development of 2 or more different narratives, by 2 or more different characters.
No one in Oni has absolute knowledge of every character's whereabouts and intentions. I think pluralistic wild guesses are the way.

"Pissing off Griffin isn't a good thing for Muro." The TCTF are losers. Without Mai they are no match for Muro, and Griffin knows it.
Even if they locate critical facilities like STURMANDERUNG, it'll be all the better as they send their best and the Strikers crush them.
Actually, even the most gratuitous skirmishes serve Muro in the way they keep the Strikers busy/mobilized/motivated/confident.

""Destabilizing" Mai is essentially playing Russian Roulette with a helluva lot more bullets in the barrel than there should be"
That's the way Hasegawa would have thought. Muro is less aware of the russian roulette thing, or maybe he likes a challenge.
Also, he might think that an unstable Mai is moke likely to embrace the STURMANDERUNG ideals (and indeed Mai nearly does).
Last but not least, Muro's cocky. He's a fine tactic, but when it comes to a rival of Mai's caliber he's quite stupid. Emotional.

"Muro's plot is more likely to occur when he has his best enforcer to deal with potential complications."
Not if he's OK with anarchy. Also, maybe the case of Barabas is grounds for unrest among other Elites.
Just because Barabas is the best (and just how "best" is he, again?) doesn't mean he's useful/necessary.
I agree that Muro wouldn't throw him away if he had nothing to gain. But maybe he had and he did smile

"Muro wouldn't punish his best enforcer with death" Probably you have a point, but it is, as usual, a case of pluralism/dialectics.
Maybe he was ready to dispose of Barabas, and maybe he wasn't. Maybe he did the same for Mukade, and maybe he didn't smile
Specifically, after Barabas got his ass kicked, Muro may have figured "well, if he lets her kicks his ass again, the hell with'im"
So, while he's not sending Barabas to a certain death, he allows for the possibility of Barabas fighting Mai and losing/dying.

"That doesn't make his statement any less valid." Of course it's valid, but it's not the kind of truth he'd tell random subordinates smile
If Shinatama's kidnapping is gratuitous, the Strikers will understand, but if the whole fuss is about his little sister gaining power...

Last edited by geyser (29/12/07 6:57)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#13 29/12/07 7:36

ItemfinderDeluxe
Member
From: Canberra, Australia
Registered: 12/11/07

Re: Muro speculation

Ultimatum479 wrote:
geyser wrote:

However, Shinatama is the umbilical cord between Griffin's TCTF and Mai. That much is certain smile
So Muro was probably aware of disrupting the TCTF's Daodan program (and pissing off his sister).

Again, that requires assumptions about Konoko's mental state. Muro has no reason to believe that Konoko is emotionally attached enough to Shinatama to be pissed about her capture; the neural link is one-way, after all.

I may be half-tired as I type this, but I'm going to disagree with you on this point. As noted in various consoles (specifically those in the science prison & TCTF Redux[I'll get examples later]) neural links are two-way communication. Shinatama, as the SLD, is able to send data and coomands from the HQ to Konoko, and Konoko in turn sends data about her current location and status, as well as the latency of her Daodan Chrysalis. Why else would they want to keep checking up on her stability, even before the start of the 1st level?

Also, from such consoles (again, I'll find it later) we know that SLD's establish a 'mental bond' with their partners. As the Syndicate was also working on SLD technology, it can be said that they would have found similar results in their research - a clear example is that in the Tanker background, where it states that they are "based on the engrams of a particularly obnoxious Syndicate commander...".

Finally, Muro may have been using the various incidents to monitor Konoko, as to judge her approximate reaction to him stealing Shinatama. Evidence exists to point out that he is well aware of her existence (as in the quote from Chapter 2 "There may be someone with them, an exceptional agent..."). Further evidence could be claimed in her reaction over level 3 and into the start of level 4, although this is up for speculation.

Thus, Muro would have had a good indication of the SLD-host link, and stolen Shinatama in order to torment and isolate Konoko, as well as cut off TCTF communication to her.


TCTF SWAT: Striker, you're under arrest.
Striker: H4h, y0u c4n'7 570p m3!!!
TCTF SWAT: Damn it, learn to spell!!!
CURRENT PROJECT - 'Nemesis' V1.0 Released

Offline

#14 29/12/07 8:19

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

geyser wrote:

"Pissing off Griffin isn't a good thing for Muro." The TCTF are losers. Without Mai they are no match for Muro, and Griffin knows it.

That isn't true at all. The TCTF have a major advantage in numbers and resources, and they're about equal in technology. If they found out about Sturmanderung early enough, they probably could've blown the entire facility to smithereens from the air; as it is, Konoko found about it too late for them to coordinate an air strike, so they just tailed her there and tried to help her take it out from the inside. The TCTF does more than just deal with the Syndicate, which ties up their resources; if they find a good reason to go after the Syndicate, like Sturmanderung or just Muro pissing off the TCTF's higher members of the chain of command, they can focus their resources on the Syndicate and crush it in one blow. Throughout all of Oni, you see only Griffin's region of the TCTF fighting virtually the entire Syndicate (which is far more mobile than the TCTF). Griffin is only the regional commander of a single branch of the TCTF. Oni shows nothing of the true power of the TCTF, which is, in essence, nothing less than the army of the entire World Coalition Government.

geyser wrote:

That's the way Hasegawa would have thought. Muro is less aware of the russian roulette thing, or maybe he likes a challenge.
Also, he might think that an unstable Mai is moke likely to embrace the STURMANDERUNG ideals (and indeed Mai nearly does).
Last but not least, Muro's cocky. He's a fine tactic, but when it comes to a rival of Mai's caliber he's quite stupid. Emotional.

...Err, WHAT? Muro consistently proves himself to be far more of a tactician than Mai, who is stupidly impulsive throughout the storyline. He's the cautious and patient sibling, while Mai just keeps rushing into things and tearing apart whatever's in her way much like Barabas.

geyser wrote:

"Muro's plot is more likely to occur when he has his best enforcer to deal with potential complications."
Not if he's OK with anarchy. Also, maybe the case of Barabas is grounds for unrest among other Elites.
Just because Barabas is the best (and just how "best" is he, again?) doesn't mean he's useful/necessary.
I agree that Muro wouldn't throw him away if he had nothing to gain. But maybe he had and he did smile

Okay, that's pushing it way too far even in comparison to the rest of your speculation here. "Barabas is grounds for unrest among other Elites"?! I bet Mukade pisses off the inferior Ninja too, huh? Oh, all those Red Furies annoy the blue ones because they're weaker, so let's send 'em on suicide missions to boost Syndicate morale too!

geyser wrote:

"Muro wouldn't punish his best enforcer with death" Probably you have a point, but it is, as usual, a case of pluralism/dialectics.
Maybe he was ready to dispose of Barabas, and maybe he wasn't. Maybe he did the same for Mukade, and maybe he didn't smile
Specifically, after Barabas got his ass kicked, Muro may have figured "well, if he lets her kicks his ass again, the hell with'im"
So, while he's not sending Barabas to a certain death, he allows for the possibility of Barabas fighting Mai and losing/dying.

I'm sure he allowed for the possibility of Barabas' impulsiveness causing him to fight Mai again, since Muro knows Barabas' uncontrollable personality quite well. He probably even ordered him _not_ to do so, but he knew his words weren't too likely to make a difference. However, he sent Barabas on the mission A: in the small hope that Barabas would be smart for once and take the helicopter and leave, maybe taking potshots at Mai on the way out; B: because no one else was good enough to lead the charge to kidnap Shinatama and he considered capturing the SLD worth putting his best enforcer into harm's way; and C: figuring that Barabas did have a chance to kill Mai and end that problem anyway (though the SLD's information could still have been useful for other reasons, since her information wasn't completely limited to Konoko). It's certain that Muro knew he was risking Barabas' life -- even if Konoko hadn't shown up, Griffin's TCTF branch is plenty powerful on its own, and they likely would've been able to resist quite strongly had they not been taken by surprise -- but he wasn't throwing Barabas' life away, which is far different. It was a calculated risk taken due to the potential value of Shinatama; he wanted Barabas to come out alive if possible.

geyser wrote:

"That doesn't make his statement any less valid." Of course it's valid, but it's not the kind of truth he'd tell random subordinates smile
If Shinatama's kidnapping is gratuitous, the Strikers will understand, but if the whole fuss is about his little sister gaining power...

That has nothing to do with my point, which was that Muro considers Konoko a potential threat and will therefore do whatever he needs to do to deal with that problem. Besides, I'm sure they can understand the idea of a single opponent being a major threat: Muro, Mukade, and Barabas all are.


Work in progress...

Offline

#15 29/12/07 8:23

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

ItemfinderDeluxe wrote:

((Lots of stuff about SLDs and neural links))

Voluntary information transfer is two-way, yes, but that's basically just communication via the neural link. I'm referring to the fact that Shinatama knows everything that Konoko feels whether or not Mai's a fan of that, while Konoko knows only what Shinatama tells her. That's the difference between an android being programmed with a human's brain engrams versus two beings having neural links to each other: the communication is via the neural link, while Shinatama's monitoring is a one-way process due to the way that brain engram programming works.


Work in progress...

Offline

#16 29/12/07 10:12

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Ho ho ho. "This is getting out of control." If "my" stuff comes across as preposterous, well, all the better.
I still think the unplugged Shinatama hosted no up-to-date information on Mai, as opposed to Damocles.
And even if she did, to retrieve facts and figures from her orally, without a proper interface? Really? neutral
In my opinion, Muro wanted to play dolls (we see him do so), and disrupt Mai's monitoring as a bonus.
Thus the stakes of the operation were relatively low. It was the chance for Barabas to redeem himself.
I still think the TCTF are ridiculously overpowered by Syndicate troops, even if the initiative is theirs.
The WCG has carried out massive demilitarization. There is no army, just an Orwellian police force.
The Strikers broke this military balance, which the pre-Muro Syndicate was interested in preserving.
I still think Muro would not overemphasize the strength of possible rivals (Mukade, Barabas, Mai)...
While he will give his goons every chance to kill Mai, he won't let her acquire a reputation rivaling his.

"If they found out about Sturmanderung early enough, they probably could've blown the entire facility to smithereens from the air"
I'm not so sure of military resources such as air strikes. Oni's universe still looks largely demilitarized to me, but I might be wrong.
The population in Oni is more clusterized than in, say, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. More like Asimov's Caves of Steel.
In any case, I agree it's quite interesting to wonder what the WCG's military power is, if any, and why we never get to see much...

"Muro consistently proves himself to be far more of a tactician than Mai, who is stupidly impulsive throughout the storyline."
How do you reconcile this with Shinatama's torturing and with the STURMANDERUNG perspective per se? Isn't he insane?
Mai's characterization is blatant, but we don't see or hear much of Muro: there's quite some room for speculation there...

"the communication is via the neural link, while Shinatama's monitoring is a one-way process due to the way that brain engram programming works."
I think the latter (one-way monitoring) is a property of the neural link, too. Shinatama relates to it as a person, but the TCTF staff can interpret it too.
There are references to such monitoring (bypassing Shinatama's reports) in Chapters 8 and 13. It seems to rely on an intact Mai-Shinny neural link.

Last edited by geyser (29/12/07 14:11)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#17 29/12/07 20:50

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

geyser wrote:

I still think the unplugged Shinatama hosted no up-to-date information on Mai, as opposed to Damocles.
And even if she did, to retrieve facts and figures from her orally, without a proper interface? Really? neutral
In my opinion, Muro wanted to play dolls (we see him do so), and disrupt Mai's monitoring as a bonus.
Thus the stakes of the operation were relatively low. It was the chance for Barabas to redeem himself.

You're still painting Muro as an impulsive and, frankly, stupid person, whose every decision is led by his uncontrollable emotions. Again, you're mixing up Muro with Mai. Muro is the cunning one; Mai's essentially Barabas, which the Elite Striker himself knows subconsciously and which thus makes him hate her even more. Does the Syndicate Boss who singlehandedly took out all of the other bosses and consistently stymies the TCTF through tactics more than numbers at every turn sound impulsive to you?

geyser wrote:

I still think the TCTF are ridiculously overpowered by Syndicate troops, even if the initiative is theirs.
The WCG has carried out massive demilitarization. There is no army, just an Orwellian police force.
The Strikers broke this military balance, which the pre-Muro Syndicate was interested in preserving.

People more knowledgeable than us about the Oni universe wrote:

When you really think about the power the TCTF wields it makes you wonder how the Syndicate has survived. There are a lot of theories: some say World Coalition Government lets the Syndicate slide because they keep the underclass down. Others claim a connection between the Syndicate and the remnants of the countries erased by World Coalition Government's land grab.

That basically says that the WCG can crush the Syndicate if it focuses its power properly, but it hasn't been provoked to do so yet. If Muro pisses it off or if they find out about Sturmanderung, things change.

geyser wrote:

I still think Muro would not overemphasize the strength of possible rivals (Mukade, Barabas, Mai)...
While he will give his goons every chance to kill Mai, he won't let her acquire a reputation rivaling his.

Muro's troops aren't all stupid, especially the Ninja and Furies. If Syndicate resources are constantly diverted towards dealing with Konoko, they'll know something's up. It doesn't matter. Muro knows they're not going to betray him for Konoko; she's not leading any group of any significant power. It'd be much different if someone like Griffin, a Regional TCTF Commander, were that powerful, because then Muro might be worried about his troops defecting, but defecting to Konoko's side isn't possible because she doesn't _have_ a side. If anything, having his troops be afraid of her might get them to stop underestimating her like Barabas and getting themselves in trouble. Muro is the Syndicate Boss because he's cautious.

geyser wrote:

I'm not so sure of military resources such as air strikes. Oni's universe still looks largely demilitarized to me, but I might be wrong.
The population in Oni is more clusterized than in, say, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. More like Asimov's Caves of Steel.
In any case, I agree it's quite interesting to wonder what the WCG's military power is, if any, and why we never get to see much...

The manual quote above explained partially why. Another reason is that the TCTF is, as the manual states, the real abuser of technology, but doing really obvious things like aerially _annihilating_ a massive mountain complex is unlikely to go unnoticed by the people, so it's a last resort. They don't want the citizens of the WCG to realize that they've been duped. While it's not likely that they will realize it, it's best not to take the chance. So basically, Oni's world isn't demilitarized, but the WCG wants its citizens to believe that it is.

geyser wrote:

How do you reconcile this with Shinatama's torturing and with the STURMANDERUNG perspective per se? Isn't he insane?
Mai's characterization is blatant, but we don't see or hear much of Muro: there's quite some room for speculation there...

I've already explained Shinatama's torturing. v_V As for the Sturmanderung plot, what's wrong with it? It was perfect, wasn't it? He was gonna make the whole world (what's left of it, anyway) buy Chrysalises from him, and look what happened even though Mai interfered with his plot: she _still_ had no choice but to try to save humanity by getting everyone implanted with Chrysalises. It would've worked perfectly. Your definition of "insane" seems to be "immoral", which has nothing to do with his cunning.

geyser wrote:

I think the latter (one-way monitoring) is a property of the neural link, too. Shinatama relates to it as a person, but the TCTF staff can interpret it too.

Objection. The monitoring is due to the brain engrams.

09_31_08: Shinatama wrote:

I am an SLD, an android programmed with your brain engrams. I have seen everything you have seen, felt everything you have felt. They used me to monitor the growth of the Chrysalis inside you...


Work in progress...

Offline

#18 30/12/07 7:46

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Muro speculation

Hi and sorry for interrupting.

It seems that the researcher *not really know* how to create a human-like AI. hmm

One thing we still cannot do is create an artificial system that adequately simulates the processes of the human mind.
Instead SLDs contain a behavioral framework patterned on donor brain engram data fed into the system *during its formation*.
This core personality is then given a chance to *develop a unique neurolattice* while experiencing accelerated streaming sensory feeds.

So they made it with some work-around: they *just use* human brain engrams - yeah, because they can't write a pattern by there own. And that leads to: it is not possible to extract single information out of an engram. (If they could then also creating a *totally artificial* intelligence, don’t you think?)

My next thought isn't perfect but I can't get rid of it...

Then comes Shinatama’s second sentence and with stuff above it is possible to *interpret* that there obviously isn't a direct logical link again. Yeah, I'm created with your pattern. And this makes me able to *feel similar*. Remember that she has developed her own personality now. So her perception is different - how far is another story. This little girl exaggerates. Why? When someone telling you "you’re artificial" why not believing in the aspects of machines. Sorta: Hell yeah, I can read and analyse any information because I'm a f##king man-machine and *I'm going to like it*.

But a neural link could be enough for exchanging mission data *and* transferring Konoko biodatas like stress, pain signals, and so on. However, Konoko must have cybernetic implantations so this datas can be collected on the go. imo, neural link is not the right word, just a link or what!? So these implantations are part of it and not mentioned.

Now continue with the other points and splash blood, my sons. Muhahahar.   Arr..

(Feel free to smash this as well but please come to an end.^^)

Last edited by paradox-01 (30/12/07 7:50)

Offline

#19 30/12/07 14:52

bboyzagy
Member
Registered: 27/7/07

Re: Muro speculation

Do you guys realize that you are discussing a game, which was written in a script, so what was written in the script happened in the game cos' somebody programed it that way. for crying out loud, stop waisting time, and go make a story of your own, if you want it to continue, and while you're at it, you could make Oni 2... tongue


The B-Boy Style Will Live On

Offline

#20 30/12/07 18:28

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

Er. Me thinks if I am to do any work on the Edition at all, I'd better do some minor disambiguation and then bail out.
Not that I agree with bboyzagy, but it's true that people easily get trapped in arguments like this one... "No escape!"
Oni's plot is, again, vastly understated, thus controversial. There's a fair amount of wishful thinking whatever we say.
And we easily overlook the flaws of one's own speculations while counter-arguing (this happens to me, too; of course).
This can go on forever, and is all the more frustrating as people tend to overstate crucial elements. That's a mistake.

If there are conflicting impressions of Oni's immediate background, more or less well-funded, they can't be resolved.
In that respect, I think objective overstatement is a dead-end. We should not try to establish "the truth" about Oni.
Rather, we should explore possibilities. Possibly contradictory interpretations can be reconciled if they are subjective.
One is free to overstate things if one limits his version of the events to the subjective impressions of a given character.
Preferably a character who doesn't know much more than what we see in Oni, or at least doesn't expect to "prove" it.

Take "Truth Number Zero" for example. It is a rather radical version of Oni's events, and I personally find it credible.
But, neither "I" nor the sources through which that version would appear in a storyline would have absolute authority.
In this hypothetical plot, TNZ would remain largely unverifiable, and would not be backed up by definite (new) facts.
That is, in my opinion, the right way to think of Oni theories. None of them should pretend to be an "objective truth".

Of course, I look like I'm trying to prove my theory when I criticize that of, say, Ultimatum479. But I'm not, really.
The arguments I'm bringing up are sometimes obstinate and naive, but they just mimic characters of Oni's world...
If the argument is viewed as a role playing of sorts, rather than the clash of omniscient narrators, it's worthwhile.

I think we've managed to keep this thread moderately objective so far, which is good. Objective truth is unwise.
Let us try not to overstate anything for as long as possible, at least not in an omniscient, authoritative way... neutral

And now for a few replies.

"Mai's essentially Barabas, which the Elite Striker himself knows subconsciously and which thus makes him hate her even more."
Heh, that's very new and very cool. What I really love about these arguments is that they can give birth to pearls like this one.

"You're still painting Muro as an impulsive and, frankly, stupid person, whose every decision is led by his uncontrollable emotions."
Look who's generalizing. On the whole, I'll agree that Muro is a fine tactic, although we know nothing of his informers or advisors.
However, you shouldn't generalize this impression onto his every deed. Try to look at Shinatama's kidnapping without that bias...

The torturing cutscene paints Muro as a sadistic youth who focuses on hurting Shinatama more than he's ever hurt anyone before.
Muro is obviously impulsive there and then. He may have been impulsive/sadistic on previous occasions. Is anything wrong with it?
For all it's worth, genial tactics don't always draw from experience and cold-headed planning. Sometimes they rely on... "intuition".
Muro, in my understanding, is such a leader. Sometimes he just does what he feels like doing, impulsively, and then improvises...
His careful planning is undeniable in some cases, but he also has the ability to fight his way out of situations that can't be planned out.
He likes a challenge, and, he's entertaining this spontaneous/intuitive part of him by making improbable or even gratuitous moves...
Of course I don't know that for sure. Let the above thoughts be a (biased and incomplete) portrait painted by "one of Muro's thugs".

I see you've ignored my point about an unplugged Shinatama being rather unfit for the retrieval of factual information about Mai.
An unplugged Shinatama is quite fit for torture though. Luckily, it's exactly what sadistic Muro seems to have been after all along.
I'd also like to stress (again) that Muro's men seemed to ignore the info stored in Damocles (facts and figures on Mai's progress).
This would be quite consistent with Muro's self-confidence, at least when it comes to his sister. When it comes to her, he's cocky.
This is, quite possibly, nothing more but wishful thinking, but Oni's plot does allow for such an interpretation. Let there be others.

"Muro knows they're not going to betray him for Konoko; she's not leading any group of any significant power." What if she kills Muro?
It's not a matter of "siding with Konoko" as an improbable 3rd party. It's about Konoko appearing as a possible tool of Muro's demise.
Not necessarily a direct tool used by Muro's opponents: those who set their sights on Konoko as a new leader only need to step aside.

"That basically says that the WCG can crush the Syndicate if it focuses its power properly, but it hasn't been provoked to do so yet."
As for Muro pissing off the WCG, he's a human bomb and they know it (incidentally, Mai has been Daodanned in response to that).
Either they never had the opportunity to nuke him, or they didn't have the means to... or they had other reasons not to nuke him.
One of those is, as you say, public opinion, but an airstrike in a remote location (e.g., deep in the mountains) is easily concealed.
Late reply to something you wrote earlier: do you remember how Konoko found out about the location of the mountain compound?
It was a tracker planted on Muro's plane. What tracker, what plane? Have you ever tried to make sense of this diary page? I have.
The only tracker we've seen on Muro's plane was planted in Chapter 5, and the signal was then lost. Could it be the same tracker?
In any case, Mai gets the compound's location by means available to the TCTF. Why did Griffin take no action? Head in the sand?
Just a bunch of questions and no real answers (heck, it can even be that the tracker refers to the missing BGI chapter). Sigh smile

"but doing really obvious things like aerially _annihilating_ a massive mountain complex is unlikely to go unnoticed by the people, so it's a last resort"
Again, looking at how easily public opinion is manipulated in the modern world, would Big Brother have any trouble at all covering up an airstrike? neutral
Especially one that's "deep in the mountains", quite possibly in one of the "several small countries that lie beyond the easy reach of the unified WCG".
I mean, imagine they nuke Nepal. Or Peru. Or Liechtenstein. Would anyone notice? And even if someone does notice... behold the almighty TV set.

As for the last resort, I always thought the last resort was Mai. At least Griffin had no other choice than to fight fire with fire, and raise a human bomb.
This doesn't necessarily mean that the WCG had no conventional means to deal with Muro. Maybe they just didn't regard him as a threat like Griffin did.
Still, the situation is disturbing. All the more so as Mai is an unethical project: she can turn the public against the WCG just as efficiently as an airstrike.

"So basically, Oni's world isn't demilitarized, but the WCG wants its citizens to believe that it is." In any case, that's a possibility that needs developing.

"Your definition of "insane" seems to be "immoral", which has nothing to do with his cunning." Isn't STURMANDERUNG a contempt for homo sapiens?
Just like Hasegawa's project and Mai's closing words, it's unethical and immoral to start with, but implementing it is beyond human reason or sanity.

"Objection. The monitoring is due to the brain engrams." As paradox said, you're inventing logical links again.
It is also true (like paradox says) that Shinatama speaks of the bond in her own, imaged, subjective terms...
Mai's brain engrams is what allows Shinatama to relate to the signal of Mai's neural link in a near-human way.
The signal itself is available to the rest of the scientific staff, except for them the monitoring is not empathetic.

Last edited by geyser (30/12/07 18:39)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#21 31/12/07 6:27

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

geyser wrote:

((A lot of stuff about pluralism))

Bluntly stated, I disagree completely. There's little point to any speculation on the issue if everyone can speculate wildly and still be considered correct. Establishing an Oni canon is necessary for any modded "Oni 2" games and fanfiction and the like.

geyser wrote:

"Mai's essentially Barabas, which the Elite Striker himself knows subconsciously and which thus makes him hate her even more."
Heh, that's very new and very cool. What I really love about these arguments is that they can give birth to pearls like this one.

*shrug* Thanks, I guess, though I'm not sure how new it is. It's a pretty common theme that characters who see the sides of themselves that they hate -- in this case, Barabas' uncontrollable impulsiveness which gets him into trouble -- reflected in other characters hate those characters, in lots of movies, games, and books.

geyser wrote:

The torturing cutscene paints Muro as a sadistic youth who focuses on hurting Shinatama more than he's ever hurt anyone before.
Muro is obviously impulsive there and then. He may have been impulsive/sadistic on previous occasions. Is anything wrong with it?

You're still _assuming_ that he's impulsive there. He is _not_ "obviously" impulsive because, as I said, he could very well have been getting information from Shinatama. His defensive retaliation against Konoko at the beginning versus his active interference in Konoko's efforts to learn about her past later show a change in his attitude towards her that is linked temporally to Shinatama's torture, and thus it seems logical that it is linked due to the action itself. He seems to have gotten information about her progress that makes him consider her more of an immediate threat than he'd originally considered her to be.

geyser wrote:

For all it's worth, genial tactics don't always draw from experience and cold-headed planning. Sometimes they rely on... "intuition".
Muro, in my understanding, is such a leader. Sometimes he just does what he feels like doing, impulsively, and then improvises...
His careful planning is undeniable in some cases, but he also has the ability to fight his way out of situations that can't be planned out.

Muro may use intuition in his planning, arguably augmented by the Chrysalis (the brain is an internal organ as well), but it's still in his _planning_. Fighting is a last resort for him,  just as with Mukade. In the Airport Assault, he could easily have killed Konoko right then and there, as his progression had occurred far more quickly than hers (Mai's seems to have caught up rapidly due to the kidnapping, torture, and death of Shinatama, a factor neither Muro nor Griffin considered), but he let his goons attempt to handle it just as Mukade allowed his ninja to fight Konoko before finally deciding that he needed to deal with her himself.

geyser wrote:

I see you've ignored my point about an unplugged Shinatama being rather unfit for the retrieval of factual information about Mai.

That's because it's not valid. Shinatama was unplugged just recently; her information is still quite up-to-date. Muro can chart her future progress pretty accurately from that information, too. Also, since Shinatama is programmed from Konoko's brain engrams, Muro gets a very good understanding of her personality and how he can use it against her.

geyser wrote:

It's not a matter of "siding with Konoko" as an improbable 3rd party. It's about Konoko appearing as a possible tool of Muro's demise.
Not necessarily a direct tool used by Muro's opponents: those who set their sights on Konoko as a new leader only need to step aside.

Konoko is not going to lead the Syndicate even if she kills Muro, and they know it based on what they've seen her do. At the time, there was no indication of her loyalty to the TCTF being in doubt at all.

geyser wrote:

As for Muro pissing off the WCG, he's a human bomb and they know it (incidentally, Mai has been Daodanned in response to that).
Either they never had the opportunity to nuke him, or they didn't have the means to... or they had other reasons not to nuke him.
One of those is, as you say, public opinion, but an airstrike in a remote location (e.g., deep in the mountains) is easily concealed.
Late reply to something you wrote earlier: do you remember how Konoko found out about the location of the mountain compound?
It was a tracker planted on Muro's plane. What tracker, what plane? Have you ever tried to make sense of this diary page? I have.
The only tracker we've seen on Muro's plane was planted in Chapter 5, and the signal was then lost. Could it be the same tracker?
In any case, Mai gets the compound's location by means available to the TCTF. Why did Griffin take no action? Head in the sand?

You're again confusing Griffin's regional branch of the TCTF with the entire thing. Griffin is far more aggressive against the Syndicate than the rest of the TCTF is willing to be due to the aforementioned reasons that the WCG has for keeping the Syndicate alive. _Griffin_ considers Muro a "human bomb" as you mentioned, HE forced Kerr to implant the Daodan Chrysalis into Mai, and he doesn't have the resources to organize an airstrike or any other such massive assault on the compound without the backing of TCTF higher-ups. He needs solid evidence of Muro's plans to convince them and he hasn't gotten any yet. That's what he's trying to do throughout Oni. He tries to track Muro to the Syndicate Mountain Compound because he figures he can send Konoko in with a strike team to recover the necessary information and get the TCTF to annihilate the base, so when Konoko "goes rogue", he figures he can't do that anymore. So you can't confuse Griffin's TCTF branch with the entire thing; we have no indication that he's even told any other branches about Konoko or his inside knowledge on the source of Muro's abilities.

The tracker figured out the general area of the compound, but it would still take a while to figure out the exact location because the tracker was removed in mid-flight. As the diary of the last level states, the tracker figured out a general position, and the type of plane being used (a VTOL) narrows down possible landing sites further as mentioned in the Airport Cargo Hangars diary. The TCTF was in the process of locating the compound based on that information and might even have done so by the time they were attacked, but whether or not they had is a moot point since Shinatama's capture caused Konoko to ignore Griffin's orders and go after her, then go rogue.

geyser wrote:

Again, looking at how easily public opinion is manipulated in the modern world, would Big Brother have any trouble at all covering up an airstrike? neutral

Sorry. Mistype. They didn't know that the main base was in the mountains at the time. The Syndicate bases that were discovered were hiding in plain sight, like at Musashi Manufacturing or in the airport itself. THOSE would've been a lot more obvious to blow up, so they tried to deal with them by sending in strike teams (consisting almost solely of Konoko in those particular cases, but not in the hundreds of others that involved TCTF branches aside from Konoko's).

geyser wrote:

This doesn't necessarily mean that the WCG had no conventional means to deal with Muro. Maybe they just didn't regard him as a threat like Griffin did.

Yeah, exactly my point above. Thanks for agreeing. ^_^

geyser wrote:

Isn't STURMANDERUNG a contempt for homo sapiens?
Just like Hasegawa's project and Mai's closing words, it's unethical and immoral to start with, but implementing it is beyond human reason or sanity.

Which still doesn't make your declaration of "insanity" a valid response to the completely unrelated analysis of his _tactical_ ability!

geyser wrote:

As paradox said, you're inventing logical links again.
It is also true (like paradox says) that Shinatama speaks of the bond in her own, imaged, subjective terms...
Mai's brain engrams is what allows Shinatama to relate to the signal of Mai's neural link in a near-human way.
The signal itself is available to the rest of the scientific staff, except for them the monitoring is not empathetic.

What do they care about a "near-human" analysis of Konoko, especially Griffin? At no point is any information on Konoko's status aside from statistical biological data discussed by the TCTF scientists with regard to Shinatama's information (please correct me if I'm wrong on that count, in which case I will concede this point). Thus, the brain engrams would've been extraneous if they functioned only as you're suggesting.


Work in progress...

Offline

#22 31/12/07 9:43

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

I still agree with Ultimatum :>  I don't even have anything to add to his comments, but I'm throwing my vote out there on his side just because I don't want it to sound like it's just Ultie who holds those opinions about the characters (can I call you Ultie?  Oh, I can't?  Never mind.)

But, as a sidenote, I wondered if the part about using the tracker to find Muro's base at the end was a kludge thrown into the diary at the last minute to plug the gap of the missing levels.  Like, "Oh, no, crap, we're not going to meet the deadline unless we cut some levels; but wait, how will we explain all the work that (Konoko, Griffin, somebody) did to find the base?  Let's just use that tracker as the explanation.  Yeah, that's it."

Also, to back up to a larger issue that concerns me, you were talking about how Mai sentences a lot of people to death by typing "Blam! Love, little sister."  That's an important point.  Was there some other choice that she had to prevent Sturmanderung from happening?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#23 31/12/07 10:30

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Muro speculation

"Was there some other choice that she had to prevent Sturmanderung from happening?"
At the very least, the ominous "blam! love, little sister" comment was totally optional neutral
With Muro out of the picture, the reversed processors could be shut down (physically).
Whatever the Strikers did to the ACCs, the chemical reactions occur at a finite speed.
After all, Muro's deal is an ultimatum. He must leave the people time to come to him.

Mai assumes that even a short activation would irreversibly produce virulent toxins...
But: 1) can she estimate that quantitatively? 2) how does she know "blam" is better?
In any case, she allows herself too much intuition. Typical of Hollywood action heroes.

Anyway, Mai's final words just mean that people should come to her instead of Muro...
In other words, she failed to preserve a biosphere suitable for "mankind as we knew it".
And she now sees her father's work as the only possible future, just as Muro before her.
Now it's done, we can't even tell if she bought any time at all by blowing up the ACCs...

I'll reply to U479 later tonight (gotta do some work on the New Year's Edition first... wink ).
For now, I'll say that there are quite a few good points of agreement... Congratulations.

Last edited by geyser (31/12/07 10:32)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

Offline

#24 31/12/07 11:36

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Muro speculation

Yeah, I see what you mean.  Konoko was acting pretty rashly in taking matters into her own hands based on her own assumptions.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#25 31/12/07 11:51

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Muro speculation

Iritscen wrote:

(can I call you Ultie?  Oh, I can't?  Never mind.)

Hm. Everyone calls me Ulti, but Ultie, that's a first... tongue Call me whatever the hell you want. It's fine with me.

geyser wrote:

((Analysis of Mai's impulsiveness))

Indeed, she is the impulsive little sister. Quite a contrast against Muro, isn't she? ^_^


Work in progress...

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB