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#1 22/12/07 18:42

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Mukade Speculation

Well, search didn't turn up anything like this. Ah well. May as well stick my feet in. Be gentle, haven't played in awhile.

One of the biggest enigmas in the game. He's kinda like Oni's equivalent of Boba Fett -- We don't know jack about this badass, but he IS badass. And he gets 'killed'. I wouldnt be amazed if he popped up in Oni 2 whenever its made somehow. Brain engrams?

So, going by discussion on the old Oni forum that I saw, he really didn't need to get the info.

Frankly, he was probably their to take Mai out.

He set up a situation where his target would HAVE to come to him. That disc was perfect bait.
But why not have all his ninja in the lobby and have them jump Mai?
Not accounting for multiple points of entry, I'd imagine he led her through all those ambushes because THAT is what NINJA are GOOD AT. And a not unjustified sense of superiority. He's a badass assassin as well as a Daodan host -- that last fact probably gives him superhuman traits alone -- like his teleportation?
So he set up his ambushes -- his fustration was probably in response to Mai defeating his machinations with more ease than he thought her capable of.
And he kept close enough to feel to lead Mai into a battle field of his own choosing. His pre-battle banter also seemed to be mostly for the effect of psyching her out. Watching a vid on youtube, and it sounds like he was almost successful their.

I know I'm omitting a dozen other interpretations, but thats what this is for. Bring 'em out, I say. Lets have some fun.

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#2 22/12/07 19:16

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

Your interpretation is promising. Please continue.

In fact, we have developed on Mukade quite a lot.
Didn't you search previous forums for "Mukade"?

More recently, I've synthesized something here:
http://wiki.oni2.net/Oni2:Truth_Number_Zero

Don't let this one drive you off the badass version.
The more alternative truths there are, the better...

Perhaps the one flaw in your version is:
why would Muro tolerate such a rival?

Last edited by geyser (22/12/07 19:19)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#3 22/12/07 19:46

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

Muro tolerated maybe because...he wasn't a rival?
Looking at Barabas, we have what is essentially a loyal hound. Probably in part to being gifted with Daodan (or so we suspect). Perphaps Mukade is similar? Maybe he himself is loyal to Muro for an as yet undeveloped reason?
Or, if he wasn't tolerated, perphaps that was a hidden purpose to the Rooftops episode. Muro might have had more faith in Mai than Mukade's prowess.
Let two of your problems duke it out. Get rid of one, at least, without having to spend time away from your own plans.


And your TNZ article is quite promising. Though, if Mukade was really out to 'advise', he did a very half-hearted job. Maybe its just me, but he could have easily said something to the effect of: "Just listen to me for a second before going apecrap."
And another: How wasn't Mai ready for the truth?

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#4 22/12/07 20:21

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

Maybe he himself is loyal to Muro for an as yet undeveloped reason?

Indeed. Please develop that reason, and you/we will have a solid alternative.

Let two of your problems duke it out. Get rid of one, at least, without having to spend time away from your own plans.

Very good one, even if it still needs a consistent background.

he could have easily said something to the effect of: "Just listen to me for a second before going apecrap."

What episode are you referring to? Who went apecrap?
Do you mean the new Mukade talking to Mai on the rooftops?

Mai going apecrap is exactly why and how she wasn't ready.
Her very brain was being upgraded, and somehow sedated.
Trying to avoid emotional stress. Favoring irrational denial.
Basically her "integration" ensuring its own safe progress.
Thus Mai is quick to embrace the most comforting truth.
Hasegawa knows he can't do anything against such denial.
From then on, his only option is to let Mai further deny him.
And his only mistake was to not play dead when defeated.

Last edited by geyser (22/12/07 20:22)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#5 22/12/07 20:33

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

>> If we're going off the idea that the Mukade we see is indeed Mai's old man, then it would be a parental thing. Yeah, maybe I can kick his ass to get what I want, etc. etc... but hes my son. And Muro would have tolerated him for the fact hes his dad.
It reminds me of an article I read on a DnD website: Even Villains can be pals. Even they can do things emotionally, not by pure logic.
If not, I could truthfully pull out any number of reasons. Maybe he's grateful to Muro for being made a Daodan -- maybe thats even what has allowed him to get to the position of no.1 assassin. Or even a handy touch of brainwashing.
Given the Muro Syndicate's martial sense of identity, I wouldn't even think it unreasonable that it may be as simple as a Soldier following orders as best he can.

>>I will agree Muro doesn't seem like the type to plan ahead. I would think, however, that is more of a ruse than anything. At the very least, it is not complete truth. Pre-Muro Syndicate was, apparently, a well-oiled machine. Enough so that I doubt Muro just walked in and brawled his way to Top Dog. He would have had an even tougher time, I think, keeping the whole integrated and in control if he was doing EVERYTHING by the seat of his pants. Even if he had advisors, he would still have some brainwork of his own for Sturmdamerung.

>> Eh, you got me their. [Taps out]

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#6 23/12/07 17:52

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
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Re: Mukade Speculation

>> The "handy touch of brainwashing" is a bit clichéed and also not very reliable.
Same for control chips etc. You can never know for sure with a Daodan, can you?
Gratitude (and maybe a control chip) is obviously at work in the case of Barabas.
Mukade, though, is not Muro's pet... but somehow has a mini-army all for himself.
Whether it's loyalty or something else, Mukade has impressive power and freedom.
The parental-filial relationship is a possibility, but kinslaying is never far away... smile
If Hasegawa and Muro are "just" father and son to each other, it's hardly enough.
Somehow Mukade has to be irreplaceable to Muro, and vice-versa. Then it works.
For example, Hasegawa may not have taught Muro everything about the Daodan.
Note that this would also work for a head Daodan scientist other than Hasegawa.
Another essential function of Mukade is that the Ninja are a major stability factor.
The martial sense of identity you mention is nice, but what if it fails? "Neutralized."
Muro needs the Ninja, be they a league of assassins or a network of androids...
And so he can't afford to openly challenge or eliminate their leader/coordinator.
This feeds back into Muro's idea of letting Mai kill Mukade (and Barabas, BTW).
___________________
>> I like that idea very much. It reveals an unexplored facet of Muro's character.
It occurred to me that he basically sacrificed Barabas, but Mukade... that's new...
As detailed above, Mukade had made himself essential to Muro, in several ways.
Possibly as the head scientist of the Daodan project, and in any case as Mukade.
Without him, the Ninja may no longer serve their consolidating purpose for long.
But the point is, STURMANDERUNG is nearing its end, and what does that mean?
Mukade just might have become disposable for Muro, without knowing it...

As for Muro VS the pre-Muro Syndicate: he had charisma, not just raw violence.
And while he was a test subject, new loyalties emerged. His fighting teacher, maybe.
Of all the figures other than Hasegawa, who else could become a surrogate father?
It makes sense that an assassin would see Muro's potential and crown him king...
He'd then provide advice and practical solutions (Ninja) to redefine the Syndicate.
The only missing piece of that picture would be: what would Mukade do that for?
Is the assassin-Mukade content with a position of absolute power as Muro's peer?
Why did he help Muro to start with? And what are his plans regarding the Daodan?
____________________
>> Hehe smile  The most amusing bit is that I'm giving the same kind of talk on the russian forums right now.
Formulating the same stuff twice in different languages sure adds some depth to the information per se smile

Last edited by geyser (23/12/07 17:54)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#7 23/12/07 19:44

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

Maybe Muro just paid Mukade...>_>


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#8 23/12/07 22:58

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

Going off the Mukade/Hasegawa relationship you developed on the wiki, it may be that Mukade's true goal was seeing the 'big brother' sort of governing powers defeated.
Not all people hunger for power and wealth, and I imagine a highly disciplined and martial occupation would set that as a goal.

If you do make an Oni 2, I wouldn't be suprised if some of this stuff found its way in.

Maybe even have Old Man don the familiar black plating?

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#9 24/12/07 8:25

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

@ Gumby: "Maybe Muro just paid Mukade...>_>" Of course. But could Muro really buy Mukade's loyalty?
("What is the meaning of true happiness? Is it money, cars and women? Or is it just money and cars?") smile
If the only thing Mukade gets from Muro is "money", why doesn't he bypass the unnecessary middleman?
In order for Muro to have tolerated a rival of Mukade's caliber, Mukade has to have been irreplaceable...
But it's also true the other way round. Mukade also tolerates Muro, so Muro is not disposable to him.
Mukade needs Muro to keep doing what he thinks he's doing. With that in mind, I ought to refine this thing:

geyser wrote:

Is the assassin-Mukade content with a position of absolute power as Muro's peer?
Why did he help Muro to start with? And what are his plans regarding the Daodan?

I ought to have said: how does he relate to the Daodan and to Sturmanderung?
Muro's plan is a megalomaniac revolution, and ultimately a redefinition of Mankind.
(Notably, Muro aptly presents this plan as the accomplishment of Hasegawa's will)
But, does Mukade want to be a part of it? Or does he have secret plans of his own?

VidBoi7 wrote:

it may be that Mukade's true goal was seeing the 'big brother' sort of governing powers defeated.

Interesting. And I suppose he would make sure to keep Muro's maniacs down eventually...
As compared to "truth number zero", this would basically retain "Hasegawa's master plan".
The only thing that changes is where and when and how the key figures meet and interact.
In this alternate story, Hasegawa may have sincerely committed to the Daodan project.
And then it's Mukade who designs the "completely different" approach of STURMANDERUNG.
Hasegawa is disposed of (but not before Mukade "assimilates" him). And the rest is history.

Maybe even have Old Man don the familiar black plating?

The Old Man is more like a hermit in TNZ. Or like Ducard in Batman Begins, if you know what I mean. After he contaminated Hazegawa, he doesn't need/want to interfere.
In the alternative story above, the Old Man would be the Mukade we know. Surrogate father for Muro, and possibly killer of Hasegawa "You killed my father! - No, Luke." So if he's back in Oni 2, yes, he'd be the one reminiscent of Mukade, i.e., what I call HIM.
Thus HIM is, either way, a somehow resurrected Mukade (whether he used to be Hasegawa physically doesn't matter and can remain unclear forever). It may be, for instance, that Mukade really died on the rooftops, and HIM is a comguy called Kojiro smile
And there could be an Old Man on the side, who looks like he knows something about the whole thing and even played an important part in the events before Oni... but now doesn't want to intervene or even talk about it... thus keeping his secret and Mukade's.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#10 24/12/07 8:38

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

geyser wrote:

("What is the meaning of true happiness? Is it money, cars and women? Or is it just money and cars?") smile

Nothing to say about this thread, since I disagree with all of it, except that Calvin 'n' Hobbes quotes > all. Congrats.


Work in progress...

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#11 24/12/07 12:23

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

"Nothing to say about this thread, since I disagree with all of it"
Care to make a more constructive statement? Pretty please neutral


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#12 24/12/07 18:13

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

More of wishful thinking on him suiting up.
Though it WOULD make a neat pre-Epic-Final-Battle cutscene. Mai getting out of ruined old clothes and in some shiny battle armor. A nice contrast between them and the ruin, some great dialogue...

I feel warm and fuzzy already.

Listening to the cutscene, you could even say Hasegawa=Mukade from the voice. The base voice seems similar enough -- his tone of voice and the voice masking make it within the realm of possibility.

So the Old Man Mukade...The Daodan might have kept him in fit fighting condition past the regular human age, but even if not, wouldn't his 'idealist' nature as put in TNZ urge him to keep in the situations at least in advisory role.

[If Mai starts Oni 2 with amnesia: It'd be a freaky little scene where HIM attempts to awaken her to her own identity with some good ol' fashioned quotes from the Rooftop. In a good way]

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#13 24/12/07 20:41

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

Listening to the cutscene, you could even say Hasegawa=Mukade from the voice. The base voice seems similar enough -- his tone of voice and the voice masking make it within the realm of possibility.

Different voice actor, but I feel the same way as you do. Similar enough so it can be Hasegawa, but then again not so similar it can't be someone else.

So the Old Man Mukade...The Daodan might have kept him in fit fighting condition past the regular human age, but even if not, wouldn't his 'idealist' nature as put in TNZ urge him to keep in the situations at least in advisory role.

Well, not really. He roots for Mankind, but he doesn't want to pamper it. In fact, he's the kind of guy who challenges, tempts or puzzles people (and that doesn't exclude hurting or even killing them), because in his understanding they have to learn to think and act on their own, and they have to anneal towards a stronger, sounder individual and social quality. Obviously taking a direct advice from such a man is risky, and for that matter he hardly gives any.

[If Mai starts Oni 2 with amnesia: It'd be a freaky little scene where HIM attempts to awaken her to her own identity with some good ol' fashioned quotes from the Rooftop. In a good way]

I've given that a few tries, but it's hard as hell not to make that part sound cheesy. Right now I feel it's best to preserve some ambiguity even in the event of such a reminiscent chat.

Though it WOULD make a neat pre-Epic-Final-Battle cutscene. Mai getting out of ruined old clothes and in some shiny battle armor. A nice contrast between them and the ruin, some great dialogue...

And then they start to fight capoeira style, and the credits start rolling. And you never see who wins. They're not so much fighting as dancing. Forever.
(That one is not my idea but Guido's. I'm not sure I would choose it as "Ending Number Zero" myself, but it has a certain feel to it. Martial arts philosophy.)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#14 24/12/07 21:22

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

Yeah, something similar. Then maybe a flashback later on.

And I actually meant them in the sense they'd be allied against some greater threat. I can't help but think whatever incarnation the WCG/Syndicate/What-Have-You would make a good antagonist force.

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#15 25/12/07 3:07

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

And I actually meant them in the sense they'd be allied against some greater threat.

Me too, but I haven't formulated that menace clearly enough yet...
Note that OMM's philosophy doesn't require the existence of an Evil.

Last edited by geyser (25/12/07 3:07)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#16 25/12/07 4:29

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

geyser wrote:

"Nothing to say about this thread, since I disagree with all of it"
Care to make a more constructive statement? Pretty please neutral

*shrug* I just think the idea that Mukade is Mai's father is completely without any factual basis, and the OP's suggestion that Mukade _wanted_ to fight Mai despite his opening statement in the Rooftops cutscene offers no reason for that aforementioned statement.


Work in progress...

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#17 25/12/07 6:43

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

What's "OP"? As for the factual basis, I haven't indulged in quotes this time around, but usually I quote a lot.
And I make a case of annealing a theory against every factual element or against the criticism of you guys.
As I said above, I will try very hard to preserve the ambiguity of Mukade's character, with understatement.
So it's all the better if the Hasegawa theory comes across as unlikely to some. False track? Maybe, maybe.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#18 25/12/07 10:27

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

OP = original/opening post/poster

I'm saying that even your TNZ theory page doesn't list any reasons for the idea that Hasegawa was a Daodan host despite Kerr's statement to the contrary (13_65_23), that he _wanted_ to implant the Chrysalises despite Kerr's statement to the contrary (13_65_27), etc. I think the plot is wishful thinking on your part, frankly: you'd really _like_ it to be that way ("No, Mai: I am your father..."), but I just don't see the facts to support it, and since there aren't any good ones listed on the TNZ page, I assume you don't either.


Work in progress...

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#19 25/12/07 11:42

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

Thank you for supplying specific examples. I was afraid you wouldn't. From the bottom:
I tried my best to keep the TNZ page readable, and I wrote it up in only a session or 2.
I've been meaning to go through it again and add references. Thanks for reminding me.
"No, Mai: I am your father..." should be "No, Mai: I am your father..." wink
I'd be totally against such dialogue; it's unworthy of the anime art of understatement.
And even if (IF!) Oni's Mukade used to be Hasegawa, he's come a veeeeeeery long way.
As for my stuff being wishful thinking, you're probably right, but don't you forget pluralism.
That's another staple of (good) anime: there doesn't have to be one single canonical truth.
Why couldn't "my" version of the facts candidate as the wishful thinking... of a character?
I don't like to think of it as me writing stories, but as complex stories writing themselves.
So, again, please don't refer to my... stuff as "the plot". It's an elaborate misconception.
It'll do great as a false track, and I'm glad for you that you, at least, won't fall for it tongue
As for Kerr's statements, you have to realize he's trying to reassure Mai, first of all...
Like Griffin (or Hasegawa), he won't lie to her, but he will resort to understatement.
You also have to realize that expert though he is, Kerr's knowledge is incomplete...
An impressive example of that is his anti-scientific tirade about the "true nature".
In 13_65_23, Kerr merely says that he and Hasegawa only "did" Mai and Muro.
The Syndicate kidnapped Hasegawa along with Muro. Whatever happened then?
Yes, there is no answer to that. I'm merely constructing one such answer. OK?
And you are totally welcome to produce what you think is the "right" story.
In 13_65_27, Kerr makes a statement about the pre-raid in-vitro experiments.
As far as I can tell, his speech does not contradict any of "my" wishful thinking.
Maybe he meant to jump in the fire and didn't tell Kerr. Kerr wouldn't know...
Maybe he really wanted to keep the experiments in vitro. But then - the raid.
Maybe... I don't really mean to take a final stand, be it with ASFO2 or TNZ...

Last edited by geyser (25/12/07 11:44)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#20 25/12/07 15:16

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

"Their is much we do not know, and may never will."
Something like that. Said by a rather nice woman. I know she didn't get what she deserved. Name began with an L.

As if from an old dream...

As for Mukade's name:

Centipede. Centipede monster.

If you look at the story through the lens of Campbell's "Heroes Journey", Mukade would be a sort of "Threshold Guardian". A test for the protagonist before they continue their quest or gain enlightenment in some way. Naming him after a mythical beast would be appropriate.

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#21 29/1/08 3:43

Mukade's_Finest
Member
Registered: 29/1/08

Re: Mukade Speculation

I am not so sure that Mukade is a rival to Muro at all. Muro is the penultimate daodan host, even more powerful than Mai, and I get the impression that Mukade doesn't feel like a match for Mai either. Mai talked about how he was like a cornered animal and such. I think that he is loyal to Muro because the effects of the chrysalis have given him a huge instability. If he does have a chysalis, its implatation is probably not as effective as Muro's or Mai's, because it is based off of their DNA, and he needs constant upkeep to keep himself in check, things he can only get through Muro.

It might also be that Mukade's mission was to not engage Mai because Muro ultimately wanted her as an ally, due to her potential power or from a shred of familial love, or both. I like to think that Muro has some sense of family, he's just a genocidal elitist about it. Anyway, Mukade's mission might have been to retrieve the data to use as a bargaining chip, but under Muro's control, so he could spin the facts in some way as to direct her anger at the TCTF and even humanity as a whole. Muro does ask Mai to join him on the Griffin Dead pathway, and even though that ending isn't canon, I think it still represents Muro's thoughts. Mukade probably shared a similar disgust with the weakness of humanity, stemming from betrayal and his own mutations, and probably identified with muro's poisonous world, much like Mukade is a poisonous centipede that thrives in dank habitats.

EDIT:
New theory on Mukade's Identity: He is Bertram Navarre, a rougue TCTF scientist who studied cell replication through experimentation on humans he bought through the syndicate. The TCTF raided his lab and he was declared dead, but the body was never found. It's in the TCTF case files in HQ.

Last edited by Mukade's_Finest (29/1/08 9:16)

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#22 29/1/08 9:36

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

That's interesting, M_F.  I did get the impression from the game that his suit is doing a lot more than obscuring his identity; it seems like in the end he has a breakdown, doesn't it?  Like his suit overloads from having to fight so hard, and maybe it's his life support.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#23 29/1/08 10:23

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Mukade Speculation

"Their is much we do not know, and may never will"
I doubt the L-woman said "their" or "may never will".
Where's that supposed to be from? I can't really tell.

"Centipede. Centipede monster." More on that here: http://wiki.oni2.net/Mukade#Name_origin

"Threshold Guardian" More on that here: http://wiki.oni2.net/Oni#Pagan_ONI_:_demons
http://www.kyoto.zaq.ne.jp/mibu/eng/pag … Ogre-43793
I always meant to introduce gate guardians into Oni (2) as a reference to Rashômon.
About the only guarded gate in Oni is the one separating Chapter 7 from Chapter 8.

"I am not so sure that Mukade is a rival to Muro at all." Heh, there's nothing to be sure about. Leave certainties to the naive smile
"Muro is the penultimate daodan host, even more powerful than Mai" One moment here: why is it that Mai kicks his ass, again?
"I get the impression that Mukade doesn't feel like a match for Mai either" maybe both Mukade and Muro gave in to Mai, then?
"Mai talked about how he was like a cornered animal and such." Mai's wishful thinking is not conclusive about who he "really" is.
"He probably can't live without the power of the chrysalis, which he can only get from Muro." So, why exactly does he need Muro?
If he's already a symbiote, what makes him depend on Muro: monitoring? stabilizing drugs? something completely different?
It's actually quite original to see Mukade as Muro's junkie bitch, as opposed to Barabas (an outright favorite, almost family).
"I am not so sure" that a hooked Mukade gives enough credit to his original concept in Oni, but as a false track, why not? smile

"I like to think that Muro has some sense of family, he's just a genocidal elitist about it" That one is bang-on correct as far as I'm concerned.

"Muro does ask Mai to join him on the Griffin Dead pathway, and even though that ending isn't canon, I think it still represents Muro's thoughts."
Actually, he offers her to join him in both endings, with the same tirade: "Join me or die like all the others, choking on dead air and foul water."

"spin the facts in some way as to direct her anger at the TCTF and even humanity as a whole" Well, Hasegawa's own project was unethical enough.
Mai embraced Hasegawa's claimed ideals at the end (which incidentally were not so much different from Muro's): "the Chrysalis will change us" etc.
She was certainly influenced by the CD, which has come across as a fake to many of us, but then again, was that a 100% intended manipulation?
As for Mai resenting the TCTF, that had come naturally as the consequence of the raid in Chapter 6, so there was hardly need for Mukade here.
As for Mai resenting all of Mankind, it's not clear how Mukade (or supposedly fake data on the CD) could have shifted Mai's beliefs so radically.

"Mukade probably shared a similar disgust with the weakness of humanity" There's no direct evidence for that, but it's an interesting development.

Anyway, having Mukade being Muro's bitch is not the only way to keep him from being Muro's rival. My preference so far is that he's Muro's peer.
Muro's rise to power is a little miracle: it's near-impossible for a teenager to break down the old hierarchy and build a new one on charisma alone.

EDIT:
"Like his suit overloads from having to fight so hard, and maybe it's his life support." That's interesting too. Maybe he's not a fighter at all, eh? smile
On another note, everything he does at that moment is theatrical. How he falls, how he drops the CD, how he keeps writhing instead of lying still.

Last edited by geyser (29/1/08 10:25)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#24 29/1/08 10:51

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Mukade Speculation

geyser wrote:

"Threshold Guardian" More on that here: http://wiki.oni2.net/Oni#Pagan_ONI_:_demons
http://www.kyoto.zaq.ne.jp/mibu/eng/pag … Ogre-43793
I always meant to introduce gate guardians into Oni (2) as a reference to Rashômon.
About the only guarded gate in Oni is the one separating Chapter 7 from Chapter 8.

*cough* Someone is forgetting Barabus at the Vago lab gate with the world's biggest handheld weapon.

As for Mai resenting all of Mankind, it's not clear how Mukade (or supposedly fake data on the CD) could have shifted Mai's beliefs so radically.

Are you saying they did shift?  Because Mai is just trying to save people in the end, even if her approach still leads to casualties.  I don't see any dislike of humanity.

On another note, everything he does at that moment is theatrical. How he falls, how he drops the CD, how he keeps writhing instead of lying still.

I'm just always amazed that the disc pops out of his suit like that smile  You make an interesting point, though, I never considered that there might be a facade going on there.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#25 29/1/08 11:04

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
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Re: Mukade Speculation

"*cough* Someone is forgetting Barabus at the Vago lab gate with the world's biggest handheld weapon." Err, right, that was to check if anyone was paying attention smile

"Are you saying they did shift?  Because Mai is just trying to save people in the end, even if her approach still leads to casualties.  I don't see any dislike of humanity."
That's right. I wasn't saying Mukade's actions (as suggested by Mukade's_Finest) shifted her paradigm. I was pointing out that such a shift was unlikely in the first place.
You can't really hope to manipulate Mai's opinion on the human race, all the less so as you pose yourself as an unlikeable, faceless, end-of-level boss with cryptic lines.
The CD received from Mukade may have had a much more direct influence on Mai, but then again it didn't display any of the disgust suggested my Mukade's_Finest...


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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