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#1 27/1/07 9:51

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Strange things about Oni's plotline.

I tell you, the game sure is odd at some points.  I can list off several of them right off the bat.

1.  That one level where Konoko chases Mukade.  It's said several times how she feels a connection to him, but it's never said what the connection is or who Mukade is underneath the outfit.

2.  In the manual, it says that the WCG knows where you are every minute.  However, the weird thing is that Konoko goes to a couple places, and the WCG and the TCTF seem to have no idea that she's there.

3.  I noticed how the game goes into the TCTF and the Syndicate, but it never brings up the WCG in the dialogue, and you never actually meet up with them or deal with them, for that matter.

4.  Dr. Kerr never actually says what happened to Konoko's father.  It's quite likely that he doesn't know, but it seems a little strange that you never find out what happened to him.

5.  After that one level where Konoko puts a tracking device on Muro's plane, the game goes into Shinatama's kidnapping and Konoko's search for information on her past.  What's odd is how the TCTF apparantly made no attempt to attack the Syndicate at their stronghold.

6.  Also, that one level where Konoko has a nightmare, I thought it was wierd how the date Wednesday Nov. 29 is put out of order with the other dates in her diary.

I understand if all of this has been discussed before, but I just wanted to put my two cents in.

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#2 27/1/07 10:42

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Oh yeah, and another thing that I noticed is this: several characters keep making a stink about what would happen if Konoko transforms into...something different, but at the end of the game, nothing of the sort happens.  Talk about anti-climatic.

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#3 27/1/07 12:39

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Some people choose Oni because there's so much missing and not said yet. It can make fan discussing about this stuff and find answers by your own.
Sometimes it helps just to dig deeper than you can see actual.

1. Hardy LeBel (the author) explained that the Daodan-Chrysalis lets them feel each other.
2. a) Konoko as TCTF special agent might have equipment to avoid difficulties until she is in state building.
2. b) You might mean TCTF HQ. Konoko talks (in her diary) about the security network which was shut down from syndicate attack. Maybe it's still out of function.
3. We are playing Konoko, aren't we? I think there was no reason for making a small talk with WCG politicians.
4. What do you await? Join the syndicate to find out.^^
5. Chances are quit good that Hasegawa still working for syndicate but under changed name. And so Muro nerver find out. The question is why he got information though mukade was killed. (Perhaps someone did a second run on already weaken state building.)
6. Yes, it was pointed out that it was just a bug.
7. Hardy said also that Konoko denied the blood-lust. So we can speculate she is ready to become an "Imago". Fights don't give her a reason to do so anymore...

Last edited by paradox-01 (27/1/07 12:47)

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#4 27/1/07 14:58

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

One of the purposes of ASFO2 was to develop/muse on some of those points.
Exploring possibilities. One possibility, for instance, is that (4) and (1) are one and the same smile
So if you're fluent in English, you can give that monster thread a go...

7)
Well, in a way something is happening to Mai. It's not necessarily something you can see.

Ooh, I'm feeling good tonight! Let's do it : streamofconsciousness mode ON...
More on denial later, as it's pretty important: Mai's psychology starts and ends with it.

"chenille" (Daodan mode cheatcode) means "caterpillar" in French. A chrysalis is the state during which a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly.
The outer appearance of the chrysalis is frozen, as is that of Konoko during the whole game. But, beneath the surface, major structural changes are going on : the tissues of the caterpillar are gradually modified, repurposed or get replaced by completely new organs, designed to serve completely new purposes. The faculties and aspect of what's developing beneath the surface of the chrysalis is nowhere close to those of a caterpillar.

Until, one day, when the time has come and the transformation is complete, the Chrysalis cracks open and the Butterfly comes out.

More on this "Hybrid Theory" of mine later.

("imago" is just the posh name for the adult butterfly)
"Whatever Mai's final form", it's just around the corner at the end of Oni.
Actually, it could be expressing itself through her psychology more than her physiology. In her case. Every Daodan is unique.

3) That's what paraquels are for. I gave both WCG and BGI a try on OG.

5)
The tracking beacon Mai planted in HOT PURSUIT was either detected and destroyed or just failed.
Ironically, Mai's bearing in DAWN OF THE CHRYSALIS is given by... a tracker on Muro's plane.
Possibly maybe, it's the very same tracker as in HOT PURSUIT. Better late than never, eh? smile

It is possible that the tracker never actually failed. The WCG/TCTF has reasons not to confront the Syndicate too directly.
Griffin has his own reasons not to expose Konoko to prolonged stress after her first mission: reasons to let Muro disappear.
We developed at great length on both aspects on ASFO2... somewhere smile

5bis) Hm, could Hasegawa really hide from Muro by changing his name... and hair... and face... Wouldn't they feel each other? smile
"The question is why he got information though mukade was killed. (Perhaps someone did a second run on already weaken state building.)"
Eh? What "info" are you talking about? For one thing, what was there on the CD that Muro didn't know already?
It's really not obvious what useful info Muro could expect to retrieve from the RSB, if any.
The last pages of ASFO2 are dedicated to that spooky episode, more or less.

6) It's a bug. It's only there in the English PC version of the game.

2) Shinatama is still alive at the beginning of PHOENIX RISING, and wired to Damocles again. The dialogue mentions that readings of Mai's biodata have completely disappeared after her acid bath.
That can only mean that Mai's neural link (her umbilical cord to Shinatama) is gone. I like to think that she ripped that "bug" out of her body: painful doesn't start to describe it.

@paradox-01:
Could we have precise references for (1)? There's another, conflicting version on ASFO2, that also refers to an interview with H. LeBel but doesn't involve the Daodan at all (that doesn't mean I like it better).

I might add a few things later. Since ASFO2 is closed, reviving it here was only a question of time smile

Last edited by geyser (27/1/07 15:04)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#5 27/1/07 21:45

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 20/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

geyser wrote:

"Whatever Mai's final form", it's just around the corner at the end of Oni.

Could she become a mutant like her brother who had the same condition? (What actually happened to Muro. I never found out)


Bite off more than you can chew... then chew like hell!!!

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#6 28/1/07 4:37

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

At first I want to apologize for overlooking stripeytiger's point 5.

Well, what are my qustions for today?

geyser wrote:

5bis) Hm, could Hasegawa really hide from Muro by changing his name... and hair... and face... Wouldn't they feel each other? smile
"The question is why he got information though mukade was killed. (Perhaps someone did a second run on already weaken state building.)"
Eh? What "info" are you talking about? For one thing, what was there on the CD that Muro didn't know already?

-  I think the connection works only if we have two Chrysalis hosts on each side - in this case Mukade and Konoko. I can't imagine that the syndicate lets Hasegawa implants himself a Chrysalis. And so Muro wouldn't be able to feel him.

-  After kidnapping Shinatama Muro went on getting more information about Konoko form state building. But if he doesn't need why he ordered Mukade to steal it at all??
(What information? I think Muro just wanted to go sure he don't miss something.)

-  If LeBel says "yeah there is a DC" and in an other interview "no there isn't" we've no chance to work further wink  Please quote his statement.

Last edited by paradox-01 (28/1/07 4:55)

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#7 28/1/07 7:31

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

I'm getting the feeling that the ASFO2 topic might already be reviving.  Maybe not in the same form, but in a different form.

Oh, yeah, and one thing I found really strange was how the Daodan Chyrsalis seemed to protect the host body rather inconsistently.  Here's a few examples of what I mean.

1.  In the first few levels of the game, if Konoko jumps into acid pools, then she dies immediately!  However, in the level "Sins of the Father", she is able to go into an acid pool without dying.

2.  Also, in the level "Sins of the Father", there's indications that the Daodan Chyrsalis does not make the host body invincible.  Konoko had to actually avoid getting crushed by those grinders, or whatever they might be called.

3.  Throughout the game, Konoko can be injured by anything that comes out of a gun.  This is strange, when you consider that in the level "Sins of the Father", there were some consoles implying that anything like bullets should have not been able to injure her.  In fact, she should have been able to completely heal herself.

4.  For that matter, being punched or kicked probably should not have been able to injure or kill Konoko.

5.  I think there was also a point in the game where you can go through a room that has poisonous gas.  It seems rather silly that poisonous gas should be able to injure her, when her father went through all that trouble to make the DC to protect people from poisonous air.

I keep getting the impression that Bungie West set up the game so that Konoko can be injured by so many different things, because if they made her virtually invincible, then the fun factor would have been wrecked.

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#8 28/1/07 9:20

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Don't you actually talk about gameplay?

Note that every game and film gets unrealistic as soon as you complain about factors which were created for you as player/audience and not for the characters.

0) ID was cut because it wasn't realizable for gameplay in short time.

1) When Konoko was starting her DC wasn't developed so far. Later she fought a lot under stress, get hurt by hits und bullets, doesn't took her medicine "Sytropin" which decrease DC growth... (You know in "Sins of the fater" Kerr expected that Konoko's growth was much less.)

2) If your brain is totally smashed to pudding by those grinders yes it doesn't look so good^^
I mean: DC adapts to environment for sure but not in zero seconds and not to things like that...

3) Hm, I think there was only mention about experiment for ripping out the DC. Nevertheless here you're absolute right: we talk so much about her regeneration abilities and we never saw such things. (They had have given us stronger enemies instead to spare at the worng end of gameplay.)
4) Also her enemies became stronger, on other hand you're right: some weak attacks shouldn't injure her at all anymore.

5) Again: no adaptation in zero. If you insist on natural air toxins which improve her lung, then there are still thousand other toxins they could use to kill the rats (and you).

I agree to your sum up.
How do you feel after unmask bungie's concept? wink


@Mango: Muro is bastard. So he became with a Chrysalis just a super bastard^^
(Kerr said that the chrysalis shows your true nature, and that's muro's nature.)

Last edited by paradox-01 (28/1/07 9:26)

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#9 28/1/07 15:03

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Every Daodan is unique. Muro and Mai don't have the same nurturing history.
You can also take their "nature" into account, if you're enough of a poet smile
(BTW, taking Kerr's word on the Chrysalis is not such a good idea: he's biased)
(I mean, he tells Konoko what she needs to hear)

1) Everything paradox said, plus the psychological effect of the talk with Kerr. Mai's confidence may feed back on her Chrysalis and vice versa.
Kerr's statement about Konoko's transformation beng "farther along than [he] anticipated" sounds like an euphemism to me smile

2 and 5) I agree with paradox. BTW, "I'm impressed. Your knowledge of Oni's material is almost as good as mine" smile
However, the Daodan is initially supposed to adapt to any toxin, given enough time.

3 and 4) Mai can be seen as regenerating between levels. Recovering almost instantly upon taking a hypo can be seen as an expression of her short-time regeneration abilities.
Real-time regeneration "as the damage happens" could have been achieved as well (elderrune), but in that case it would have taken them ages to adapt the gameplay curve accordingly.
Same thing for little or no damage dealt by minor hits towards the end of the game: it would have taken rather long to fine-tune.

I agree with paradox: gameplay shouldn't be getting as much credit. Virtually any gameplay aspect can be explained plotwise if you have enough imagination, but why should that be the point?

@ paradox:

Please quote his statement.

You were first. I asked you first: please quote yours...
I can't give you "my" reference because it was Seventeen Seconds who made the point, not me.

-  I think the connection works only if we have two Chrysalis hosts on each side - in this case Mukade and Konoko. I can't imagine that the syndicate lets Hasegawa implants himself a Chrysalis. And so Muro wouldn't be able to feel him.

-  After kidnapping Shinatama Muro went on getting more information about Konoko form state building. But if he doesn't need why he ordered Mukade to steal it at all??
(What information? I think Muro just wanted to go sure he don't miss something.)

"I can't imagine that the syndicate lets Hasegawa implants himself a Chrysalis." OK, what means of pressure would they have, really? Who's controlling who?
As we know, at some point Muro actually became the Syndicate, and he felt like he was paying a tribute to Hasegawa right to the end:

I've accomplished everything our father dreamed of doing...

As for Shinatama's kidnapping and Muro's so-called quest for information about his sister, see the final pages of ASFO2. I won't be duplicating my talk here.
Basically, the most exhaustive and up-to-date info on Konoko is at the TCTF HQ (in Damocles rather than in Shinatama). In human-readable form, at least.
Also, torturing Shinatama is about the least effective way to retrieve anything informative on Konoko.
Muro's men ignored the data on the intranet while raiding the TCTF HQ. Muro had no plans for Shinatama other than torture (Konoko's insubordination and rogue status were unexpected bonuses). Mukade being sent by Muro is only Mai's impression.

Last edited by geyser (28/1/07 15:05)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#10 29/1/07 0:20

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

stripeytiger wrote:

3.  Throughout the game, Konoko can be injured by anything that comes out of a gun.  This is strange, when you consider that in the level "Sins of the Father", there were some consoles implying that anything like bullets should have not been able to injure her.  In fact, she should have been able to completely heal herself.

Well, I thinks that is why "elderrune" feature is in the ONI (but sadly, only as a cheat). IMO originally it wasn't designed only for Barabus's regeneration, but also for Konoko, Muro and other *half-Chrysalis hosts* (only my theory-elite men of Muro's army, which were slightly improved) in the last levels in order to create diferent feeling of the game (more apocalyptic) . Maybe yes, maybe not. If I (erhm....OK, if WE) manage to come so far in Oni no Kanabo, I plan to make certain characters "elderrunned" and Konoko too.

Last edited by Loser (29/1/07 0:21)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#11 29/1/07 2:40

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 20/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

A thing that bugs me is when you jump in acid even with liveforever on, you die without a moments notice.


Bite off more than you can chew... then chew like hell!!!

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#12 29/1/07 8:09

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Yeah, I noticed how Oni doesn't have a lot of gameplay features - the kind of gameplay features that seem so commonplace and (maybe) basic in a lot of games.  For instance, in Oni, you can't swim or grab onto ledges to climb up.  In fact, I'm convinced that the reason why you die instantly in acid is because the game doesn't have a swim feature, and there is no way you can get back up and out of the acid pool after falling in.  I kept getting the impression that the game was simply unfinished by the time of it's release (Then again, Bungie West apparently spent at least two or three years working on this game, and experienced delays ranging from "Losing a lead programmer..." to trying to improve the game's technology - I know all that because I have a PC Gamer magazine that went into games that are still not released and the reasons behind them).  I think Oni is a great example of a game where the gameplay and plotline seem to contradict each other at several points and don't seem to mix very well.

The funny thing was, I thought Muro sent Mukade to steal the files because he was trying to keep Konoko from finding out the truth.  In fact, the reason why I thought Muro sent Mukade is because there were Furies in red uniforms (Valkyries), and according to the manual: "The Valkyries are Muro's personal attendants and bodyguards.  Their presence always indicates his personal involvement in an operation."  If Mukade had been acting on his own, then why were Valkyries with him?

When I think about the ending to Oni, one big question comes to my mind: how are the survivors going to get Daodan Chyrsalises?  I kept getting the impression that the DC was a big-time state secret, and it would follow that very few people even know about it.

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#13 29/1/07 11:28

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

1) Kerr is biased? I bet you've explained it somewhere in ASFO2.

I feared the day I will be forced to read your monster post.^^ (Not necessary to say that my English sucks.) I will read it but give me some time.

2) The point of "awareness of DC hosts to each other" and "Who controls who":
The Syndicate got Muro and the prototype which was based on his genetic code, plus important lab equipment and data. Hasegawa would be the top bonus - but you know "nobody is not interchangeable". That isn't a quit good position for Hasegawa in my point of view.

Nevertheless: you already made up your theories so I will take this aside when I'm dealing with ASFO2.

3) You say that Mukade wasn't ordered by Muro... Of cause Konoko hasn't a proof but after all it would be a possibility I'm satisfied with. smile  Uuh, there's something cold creeping up my back. Do you think Hasegawa = Mukade? (It would bites with my second point again...^^ ) Furthermore it's the base for your "Muro's tribute to Hasegawa"-theory.
The worst thing what could happen is that we have two totally different theories at the end, but I'm still confident we will find a solution^^

4) Last point: the statement.

Posted By: chef
In Response To: Re: Quick question, somebody know this? (Mukade?) (Harry)

People with a Daodan Chrysalis inside them are "super predators" of sorts, so they are very aware of each other: imagine a tiger moving into another tiger's hunting grounds. Anybody who has ever been to the zoo can tell you that you always know when the tigers are about to make their entrance: tigers have a very distinctive odor that you can smell for miles.

Konoko's internal lines in that level were meant to show her own predatory response to the threat that Mukade presents. And when she ends up talking to Mukade he tries to get her to admit that she's feeling the "thrill of the hunt" and that the creature she is becoming likes to kill, but she denies it.
Still we all know how that level ends ;^>

: Hardy LeBel explained on this forum that he has a chrysalis too, so both
: Mukade and Konoko can sense each other. Mukade has a highly developed
: Chrysalis so he's very experienced in it.
: -Harry

LeBel him-self doesn't explicit name the DC. But he response directly to Harry's words – nor he correct him.

Okay, now it's your turn. What did Seventeen Seconds said?

Last edited by paradox-01 (29/1/07 11:29)

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#14 30/1/07 17:31

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Seventeen Seconds referred to this very post HERE. He didn't quote his reference (BTW, could you give us the URL of the thread, or do I have to look it up?).

It's also been outlined in the Oni Central archives by Hardy LeBel that Mukade's a Daodan super-predator and that emotional link between them is akin to the way tigers sense each other on the same turf, not daddy-daughter intuition.

My reply was as follows:

I have nothing personal against Hardy LeBel or other BungieWest folks (I'm actually glad they screwed up Oni the way they did), but that point about predators is pre-pos-te-rous.
I hope I'm not getting too vulgar, but : an invading tiger senses that he's entering another tiger's territory because that other tiger has peed all over the place; the other tiger doesn't sense the invader before it comes across a tree the invader has profusely peed upon.
And of course LeBel's "point" doesn't start explaining why Mai hardly feels Muro while having such a visceral link to Mukade. Sheesh.

Cynical it is, but Hardy's point about "distinctive odors" is essentially the same.

Nevertheless: you already made up your theories so I will take this aside when I'm dealing with ASFO2.

I don't like to look like my mind on everything is already made up. I'm ready to reconsider (or I like to think I am), and I encourage pluralism.
A given event of Oni's storyline can have several interpretations, and not only among Oni fans. Oni characters can come to conclusions of their own.
Maybe possibility A is a misconception and possibility B is the real thing. Maybe it's the other way round. Maybe none of this is true. All the better.
But even is this-and-that is only a misconception, it's well worth it to build it into a credible, consistent set of references. Again, all the better.

So I don't mean to state that Hasegawa=Mukade. It just so happens that this possibility can be appealing (to me, to some other Oni fan, to several fictional characters) because of the way it fills Oni's lacunas and explains certain things. Yet, no matter how sensible and consistent it seems, it can be no more than an elaborate misconception at the end of it all. Ideally, there could/should be a set of equally elaborate, consistent and sensible theories alongside it. Then you'd get a truly lifelike story, with false tracks, false friends, etc...

One thing I'd like to stress is that if Mukade is Hasegawa, then you can as well say he is not Hasegawa. He's come a long enough way to be deeply different (let's say "alienated" smile ). And then the distance is such that it no longer matters who he used to be. Or at least, there doesn't have to be a way to find out "for sure".

To show you that I can develop on theories different from "my own":

The Syndicate got Muro and the prototype which was based on his genetic code, plus important lab equipment and data. Hasegawa would be the top bonus - but you know "nobody is not interchangeable". That isn't a quit good position for Hasegawa in my point of view.

Indeed, let's suppose Hasegawa was interchangeable, i.e., that as the inventor of the Daodan concept he was disposable. Maybe he had every possible protocol written down somewhere, or maybe he hadn't figured anything out himself yet, so that virtually any talented/mad scientist was qualified enough to take the project from there.
Bertram Navarre, for instance. He seems mad enough, and he used to work on the "retasking" of human cells (i.e., something fairly close to the Daodan). Then it could very well be that Hasegawa was actually tucked away (or killed: why bother?). Navarre overtook the project, possibly becoming a surrogate father for Muro, because of how he catalyzes Muro's violence.
Then, when Muro overtook the Syndicate, Navarre would be among the few figures he spared. Navarre would in fact become quite a prominent figure in Muro's Syndicate. Muro's peer. Mukade.

Happy now? smile

Kerr is biased in the way he tells Mai what she needs to hear. He spares her the gory details (analogy with cancer etc).
He says "whatever your final form" (which is another way to say he doesn't know a Daodamn about the outcome for Mai).
And then he goes about the "true nature" and its expression. That's not a scientist talking. At the very least, it's a caring uncle.
He wants to reassure Mai, to make sure she thinks everything will be allright, because then it indeed might.
Telling her "the truth" is second to that. It's a wholly different question whether Kerr has come to believe that himself.
That is, if Kerr's careful handling of Mai (which is defendable as such) is an expression of his own wishful thinking.
I think it is: his involvement in the project (his guilt/debt towards Hasegawa and his daughter) have him 100% biased.
HERE is how his fellow scientists put it (it's the stuff about Sytropin).

Team members are concerned that Kerr may suffer from an unprofessional attachment that may compromise his objectivity towards the program.

Of course it was already discussed somewhere on ASFO2. Searching for "Kerr biased" yields 4 posts.

Last edited by geyser (30/1/07 17:44)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#15 31/1/07 8:16

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

I have some questions about the Imago stage.  Is it really the final stage of Daodan evolution?  On one hand, it seems to be, when you consider what Muro looked like when he acheived that stage.  On the other hand, the game never said that the Imago stage was the final stage of Daodan evolution.

Another question that I'm wondering is this: is the Imago stage really an example of bloodlust, or is it, like Kerr said, "...an expression of your true nature."?

Last edited by stripeytiger (31/1/07 8:16)

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#16 31/1/07 8:40

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

I don't understand what you're putting into "bloodlust", and why it should be opposed to "an expression of Muro's nature".

The imago is the final stage of development of a butterfly (caterpillar > chrysalis > imago).
For a daodan Symbiote, this happens when 100% of your biomass has been replaced by your hyperevolved clone AKA the Chrysalis.
Whether there's a life after that is not clear. The point for yet another clear-cut transition to yet another form is not obvious.
The Imago is supposed to be an optimization of the original host, and as such it is as close to perfection as can be.

Another point is that not transiting to the Imago stage could qualify as a stage of its own.
In that respect, I'd make a distinction between (Mutant) Muro and Barabas, on one hand, and Mai and Mukade on the other.

Searching the previous OCF for Imago gives you 22 hits, most of them in the ASFO2 thread.
You can narrow down the search by combining Imago with "seed", or "upgrade", or "love".

...

For the record, here's my last reflection on ASFO2:

"Wasnt the violence caused by the corruption of the Daodan organism?"
You're hard to get right. You mean if the host was "evil" to start with (that kind of corruption), then the Chrysalis would enhance that "bad nature", and the resulting Daodan/Imago/whatever would be violent? And that if the subject was innocent, there would be no violence?

It's a bit more complicated than that. Even a placid and good-natured individual can get a hell of an adrenal spike when chased by a rabid dog, or when faced with a mugger.
Life-preservation instincts, in Konoko's case, bring her to dispense indiscriminate justice. Good nature or bad nature, the Daodan enhances those instincts dramatically.
Konoko is able to withstand aggression, but that response is what makes her aggressive/violent/dangerous/deadly.
How Daodan-assisted response easily gets out of proportion and out of control : that's Griffin's main problem with Konoko (and that of the whole staff in charge of TCTF's Daodan project).

She doesn't enjoy violence. She's just good at it. A posteriori, she may feel a lot of guilt. But she's an angel of death nonetheless.

In the middle of the action, she's not in control of herself : something "comes forward" and deals with the danger as it sees fit.
Increased efficiency, little or no control left to Konoko.
Disproportioned, inconsistent, gratuitous.

From Konoko's point of view, the gamer  (yes! ) can be seen as a manifestation of the Daodan entity : possession, "lack of self-control", blank-out, and a lot of dead bodies when she wakes up. Sleepfighting, or even worse, seeing people die by your hand, not being able to do anything about it, and slowly realizing you no longer care...

Linkin Park's "Crawling", again. And THIS

Last edited by geyser (31/1/07 8:51)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#17 31/1/07 12:09

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

0) Research for statements:

Don't know which person you mean exactly.

I think Seventeen Seconds used the same as me.
http://carnage.bungie.org/oniforum/oni. … read=19468

"not daddy-daughter intuition" (in ASFO2) could be the taken opinion from http://forums.bungie.org/oni/archive.pl?read=15254

Our (other) interessting part started in middle of the old thread.
http://forums.bungie.org/oni/archive.pl?read=15104

Posted By: chef

In Response To: About Mukade... (Keldon)

More advanced Daodan mutates are hyper-evolved "super predators". All of the aspects of their bodies evolve, including their senses. The 
"connection" Konoko feels with Mukade is her own evolving senses alerting her that she is on the trail of another Daodan super predator.

Could she keep herself from killing him once she'd established her dominance, or does the predatory nature of the Chrysalis demand that she 
destroy any and all threats to her existence? That is the question YOU get to answer for yourself in the Omega Vault.

At least that's the way I hoped it would feel!

: WHO IS HE!? His origin is never explained and before he dies he says that he
: is in some way related to you, or has something to do with you! He never
: gets brought up again after that.

: Grr, Bungie released this game when it was too underdeveloped, they needed
: more levels, bigger plot, and multiplayer.

: However, I still think the game kicks ass, though it could be a lot better.

1) Last statement gave us a "fact". Now our interpretation should go how we explain it, or?

Thought more in direction Daodan particles, so a wide crossing ..ehm.. "aura". Could be 
cheat code chenille but without concentrated particles in body range cuz of no overpower.


2) Whatever the "truth" is I like also having more ideas than one. Okay Geyser, peace. smile


3) To be exactly: My aim wasn't having Hasegawa replaced with Navarre. I just wanted to show that probably he hadn't a good basis for 
negotiation.
Personaly I think they used later a subdermal transponder. After Muro's rising (mabey he had some helpful friends) he found out what happen to his 
father .. and dicided not to give back him a own mind... Motivation? Fear of dealing with (non-)existing feelings .. irritation .. or wanted 
not to destroy his half coma happy life again. Whatever...

4) So did he just wanted her best and didn't tell her from side effects? Do mean a the loss of self-control is bigger than expected?

Well, it's not dirctly my opinion but here's a con:
http://forums.bungie.org/oni/archive.pl?read=15111

Posted By: Barabastard

In Response To: Re: About Mukade (spoilers) (snwbderguy)

I don't think the Crysalis affects the decisions of the person implanted... Remember what Kerr said? You are what you are, but your final 
form is the reflection of your true nature. Which is why you get a choice between shooting Griffin and letting him live.

"true nature" and "smart cancers" aside this gave me to think about.

Last edited by paradox-01 (22/2/08 17:55)

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#18 31/1/07 15:31

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Erm, care to spell(or whatever)check your stuff a bit? I have trouble making out some sentences smile

The Daodan is "smart cancer" that eventually replaces 100% of your biomass. Why should it not mess with your mind?
Kerr's tirade shouldn't be taken as an objective statement on what the Chrysalis is and does. He's comforting Mai. Period.
I developed on "loss of control" somewhere on the previous OCF (of course).
A much lighter reading is THIS
(BTW, you're invited to contribute, either to the page itself or to the "discussion")

I generated on Navarre in a completely spontaneous way. Just a gratuitous display of my "good will" and "improvisation skills" smile
Note how I tend to fall back on precise characters (Mukade) and events. The ultimate goal of every "theory" (again, possibly a bunch of misconceptions) is to provide a plausible explanation not for one of Oni's lacunas, but with some sort of overall integrity.
You can muse on a Flatline-Zombified Hasegawa, sure (BTW, I wouldn't say the FZ stuff is meant for long-term control of people).
What happened to him (and Muro) when he was taken away, what happened when Muro found out.
But the missing Hasegawa is still only part of the picture. Especially that lobotomy thing: sounds a bit anecdotical, don't you think?
Anyway, sooner or later you'll have to account for Mukade.
First, how can Muro have ever accepted a rival such as Mukade?

I'm impressed. Your potential is almost as great as mine. Unfortunately, that means you could pose a threat to me. I can't allow that.

Second, why doesn't Mai ever feel Muro the way she feels Mukade?
The second point would suggest that Mukade is, if not genetically closer to Mai, more "developed" than Muro.
In other terms, it's not the same thing as with Barabas (who's presented as Muro's creature). Mukade is superior to Muro in some aspects.
And then the first point calls for a reason why Mukade should be a peer to Muro. Two super-predators. Living and letting each other live. How come?

That's the reason why I focused on the strong figure of a (surrogate) father. Either Hasegawa or (why not?) Navarre. But Mukade can't be anybody. Because of his apparent freedom and superiority to Muro, Muro has to trust him. And not in the way he "trusts" Barabas.

By "not daddy-daughter intuition", 17secs was merely rejecting that Mukade=Hasegawa of mine...

Last edited by geyser (1/2/07 13:34)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#19 1/2/07 7:54

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Isn't it interesting how Muro transforms into a mutant version of himself at that moment?  I mean, it may be true that a person gets to the Imago stage "...if 100% of their biomass gets replaced," but I think that evolving to the Imago stage is also a matter of choice.  By that logic, Muro went to the Imago stage because he chose to, and Mai didn't, because she chose not to.  It would also mean, by that logic, that Mai could still go to the Imago stage if she ever ends up in a situation that causes her to make that choice.

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#20 1/2/07 11:15

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

That's what I call "giving in". "Falling in love". Leaving Mankind behind.
Transiting to Imago (for me) is a sign of (psychological) weakness.
And it's a substantial loss of identity. I don't wish that to Mai.

I've already given you a few cue words to search ASFO2 for (if you feel like it).
Concerning Imago, a few additional ones would thus be "giving in", "given in", "give in".
There are more. There are pages on the Daodan and Imago. And not all by me smile


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#21 1/2/07 14:37

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

How do I check my spell when I'm bad in English? wink

We should establish a "tree of theories" in OniGlore but let me finish this here at first.


1)    "Why should it not mess with your mind?"
    [...] "Which is why you get a choice between shooting Griffin and letting him live."
Still in chapter 13 you're not (too bad) controlled by some cells or by a psychical events like bloodlust.
That was I thought about.
From biological side: It's possible that the DC change a bit his or her synapses structure and the personality - but we know it needs a reason.

The key idea of the Daodan design is that in order to achieve outstanding performance (efficiency, power), you have to give up control. 
That's what Kerr and his colleagues keep talking about, that's what Muro and Barabas and Mai illustrated, each in their own way : Muro escaping the Syndicate's control in pretty much the same way as Mai escaped Griffin's, Barabas's more complicated case being a forced (and failed) conciliation of power and control.

Didn't OniGlore's "Loss of control" actually talks about "Loss of Mai and Muro"? .. In this moment I imagine what Griffin could say: "loss of some high dangerous weapons".^^
If you were locked away for years, nobody told you the truth, then they're going on to abuse you and your abilities...
Now you painful realize that you were a toy. Don't you want to get away? And this did Mai. Muro made the "opposite with same effect".
He took over business when he got a chance - this made sure nobody would be a danger for him again. Isn't it "healthy human intellect"?


2)    Mukade a rival?
Traditional Ninja respect their leaders. Many "schools" (Ryû) was founded in Japanese civil war but most faded also in the end. After 
Second World War Japan wasn't allowed to have any martial art - this was one more reduction of Ryû. (But how it is: the Ninjutsu didn't become extinct.) We could expect a revival in 2032 for some reasons.
Japan's public wasn't willing to join WCG but had no chance. Maybe a few very displeased people remember their old culture and legends.
So Ninja clans cloud means "terror groups against WCG" at very beginning. When Muro got to power he promised to give their (and his) country back its nationality... If he would really do is an other question.
Special task forces und mercenaries (our beloved Oni snipers) finish the war to 80% of world territory. Why not annex all? Too much resist? A possibility could be the culture conflict between Christians and Muslims. Big parts of African and Middle East are orthodox and deny many Western ideas. WCG perhaps avoid in fear terror cells and biological attacks. In additional: they reached already their main goal: the gathering of most global marketplaces.

So Mukade is not necessary a rival.


3)    The Daodan feeling problem

Second, why doesn't Mai ever feel Muro the way she feels Mukade?
The second point would suggest that Mukade is, if not genetically closer to Mai, more "developed" than Muro.

Ninja aren't just magic and killing machines. Without the philosophy of Ninjutsu they cannot be a "ninja".
One of five "Commandments" says that they should not succumb to grief, rage, envy and hate.
Of cause we cannot expect every ninja being so noble. Maybe the bloodlust or your mentioned loss of (self-)control corrupt Mukade already.
(This was also the connection to LeBel's words: Konoko was able to deny her bloodlust. This gave me hope that DC isn't too uncontrollable. (*) )

Does your blood burn when you kill? Mine does.
We writhe inside as we are torn apart to make way for what we will become. Surrender to it. Let the bliss of oblivion free you of all your doubts and fears...

But back to their Ninjustu: Seishinteki Kyôyô, one of 18 training levels, commands them to be open for all perceptions of them-self and environment. They are always busy improving their abilities. Muro hasn't such own rules; he seems to be more a street fighter.


Okay and why did Konoko feel him? The interpretation goes to aggressiveness and bloodlust again.

TCTFdl12\gpp\aL3 Personnel Performance Log\supplemental [cont]

While boosted, she demonstrated an uncharacteristic aggressiveness that frightened her instructors. She was asked to stop working out so we could monitor her but she refused.

[...]

If Konoko's latency drops any more than it did during this incident we are concerned that she could become violent. All of her trainers are advised to keep VDG pistols on hand for the time being.

Barabas! I can't believe it! I know his record...he's very strong. I know I'm not supposed to enjoy combat but this guy will be the first real challenge I've had.

I can't believe it...the building is full of innocent people and those Strikers were...just horrible. I know the head man behind the Syndicate is named Muro. I swear when I find him I'll...I don't know what I'll do!

Konoko met Muro at airport - it seems that she can't yet feel him nor Barabas.

But remember: she got late two daodan spikes (after second fight against Barabas and in ACC.) Shouldn't it show her rapid accelerated metamorphosis?

And then she met Mukade... DC made her able to feel other equal. After the fight she denies her killing nature and gave up her new ability (be cause of the obvious connection). (*)

A good question is whether the last spike (after Muro's death) will change her sense again or just make her ready becoming a butterfly.

Last edited by paradox-01 (3/2/07 6:07)

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#22 1/2/07 16:18

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Re:spelling: there's an A in Oni Galore smile

Efficiency versus loss of control is the key dilemma of a general SF concept: that of autoevolution.
Oni's Daodan only illustrates it. Literally (biologically), at the scale of an individual, it's quite straightforward.
Its applications to society and character history are less immediate: they're extrapolations and metaphors.
Your "human-sized" explanations for how Griffin lost control over Mai (and the Syndicate over Muro) are valid.
Putting Muro's radical reformation of the Syndicate in parallel with how a Chrysalis upgrades its host from within...
...it's 100% poetical stuff. I saw no reason not to think of it that way, because Oni's world could need a poet.
As for Mai, Griffin saw her as a controlled experiment: using a formalism similar to his is fair. Could be his POV.

This whole idea of pluralism, in this specific case, is:
depending on what they know and what they imagine, people can build very different perceptions of the Daodan.
Real-life people (you and me), and fictional characters. The lack of a canon is actually very lifelike.
Entities and events can mean very different things to different people.
Especially when it comes to something as exotic as the Daodan.
_____________________
Mukade's loyalty towards Muro would be similar to Barabas's then: unconditional, filial allegiance.
(That said, if I was a street fighter and not a Ninja myself, would I rely on "an assassin's honor"?
Not really. I'd find the "guarantees" insufficient. All the more so if Mukade becomes "corrupt" as you say)
(All the more so if before becoming corrupt that "loyal servant" was "busy improving his abilities"...)
But let's say somehow Muro can be sure Mukade is no threat to him (subdermal transponder, eh? wink ).

OK. Same as Barabas, then. A subordinate rather than a master or a peer. A creation disposable and/or one of Muro's "best thugs" (nothing more).
Like in Barabas's case, there's some kind of non-trivial genesis, but nothing as deep as for Mukade=Hasegawa or Mukade="Navarre". OK.

On ASFO2 it was recurrently "guessed" than the Ninja were automatons or massively dehumanized cyborgs (possibly with Daodan implants).
Mukade seemed more human than the rest of the Ninja (as compared to Muro, even, he's a freaking poet...). But... "you never know".

Pluralism.
For now, let's say under certain circumstances, certain people could take that point of yours ("Mukade=not a peer nor a rival").
As for me, I'm not sure... smile

(BTW, seeing how Muro's Syndicate is given to gratuitous violence, I can't really see why old-school Ninja would stick with such creeps)
(New-school assassins seem more like it) (I invite you to read THIS, for yet another parallel involving Mukade/Muro/Mai)
_____________
Konoko "denied her bloodlust" by killing the one who hinted at it. That, already is ironic at the least: "Kill me and I win". Talk about victory smile

Pluralism, again: you (as Konoko) may think choices were hers; I (as a side observer, preferably an "objective" scientist) don't take that for granted.

You make it seem like Konoko's telepathic link to Mukade allows her to feel nothing but bloodlust. That is not so.
The mutual "invading-invaded" awareness went through things as random as "There's something familiar about him. I can't quite place it" or "He can't escape me, but why?". The talk on the rooftop is where and when Mukade's "aura" took shape. Mostly because of what he said.

The denial you mention could indeed have caused an already well-developed smile Mai if not to "not feel" Muro at the Mountain Compound, at least to help her dull the perception, like it's "nothing special".
I can't see why she'd deny a telepathic link to Muro. He's not only a bastard, he's her brother and she knows it.
Even if the "actual" explanation has nothing to do with genes (just "superpredators" filling the air with their "metapheromones"),
in Muro's case Mai would have no reason to say "I have nothing in common with him". It would be an (even more) extreme case of denial.

And while we're at it: does denying a problem make it "not there", usually?
What did Mai gain by denying Mukade and her had anything in common?

A human being would have total control over the "transformation"?
Making the "right" choices? Would it be that easy?

Pluralism: let Mai believe that. Or Kerr. I'll be someone else smile

A good question is whether the last spike (after Muro's death) will change her sense again or just make her ready becoming a butterfly.

I can't see why you use "or" (isn't admitting to bloodlust again a huge step towards the Imago stage?) and "just" (what's so innocent about that?) smile
BTW, your point for why there was no "ecstasy" after Mukade is original and nice. I can't remember anyone putting it that way (well, then again, I haven't been around for long...)

Last edited by geyser (1/2/07 17:14)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#23 2/2/07 10:45

stripeytiger
Member
Registered: 25/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Actually, I don't consider "falling in love" to be the same as "giving in".  Falling in love is more like when you get feelings of lust and attraction towards someone or something.  It is not a choice or something you can control, because it just happens to you.  Giving in implies that a choice was made to quit resisting an idea or something.  So basically, I think Muro going Imago didn't just happen, he simply chose to go Imago.  Also, I don't think he was resisting the idea to go Imago.  No, I think he was simply waiting for the right moment to do that.  Of course, if that was the case, then he should have gone Imago when Griffin and the Black Ops showed up, don't you think?  smile

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#24 2/2/07 13:37

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

Do I need to argue or have you basically invalidated your own point about Muro having full control of when and if he goes Imago?

Also, how can we argue about poetry ? There can't be anything "wrong" with analogies and metaphors...

This is where your sanity gives in and love begins...
Never lose your grip, don't trip, don't fall - you'll lose it all...
The sweetest way to die...

Either you like that song (i.e., identify with it) or not. That's all there is.
The whole scene with Mutant Muro looks weird (some people treat it like it never actually existed). His whole transformation, the way it's timed...
Muro didn't resist, indeed. He "gave in" to his appetite for violence quite smoothly, and there was no struggle. He fell. In love. Your description. smile
Maybe you should actually go and read the few posts that draw the analogy between Imago and Love? "Paralyzed" by the Cardigans, all that...

In Mai's case, there is a struggle. Violence doesn't make her "evil", but she's anything but innocent. Whatever she denies in Rooftops is still there.
In her case, it's not Love she can fall (or not) into. It's a case of Love and Hate ("Paralyzed", again).
Not the happy state of lovers left to themselves, but the dramatic "passion" of tragic heroes (with all the thrilling ups and suicidal downs).
In that context, "to give in or not to give in" makes sense, too.

Last edited by geyser (2/2/07 13:41)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#25 2/2/07 13:52

paradox-01
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Strange things about Oni's plotline.

1)    Efficiency versus loss of control

Putting Muro's radical reformation of the Syndicate in parallel with how a Chrysalis upgrades its host from within...
...it's 100% poetical stuff.

Should mean: I think about "human-sized" stuff and you dis- and reassemble poetry? smile
Okay, then let me nag a bit more.


1.2)    Mukade's loyalty
That he likes bloodlust made him not necessary unpredictable. It's a temporary feeling - only in fights.
Mukade's training should be Muro's interest - on the other hand I understand what you think: He as BigBoss can't be weaker as a servant - that makes distrusting. .. Hey, so Muro is also from old school.^^
I personally thought: Mukade’s clan stand alone (too weak against WCG) so he needs the Syndicate no mater what, Muro know this, so it is not really trust but how things are.

No worry, there is "human-sized" add-on.
Muro is for sure a really big bastard but not as much lunatic as it might seems.
He knows power and its sweat taste. Would he exchange it to nothing than death?
We talked about Muro's fear that other could become stronger. How would he prevent if the half earth get a Chrysalis and enough time becoming Imagos?^^ It have to exist somewhere a little trick.
The Syndicate had ten years plus X preparing the world's take-over. .. What did they do in all this time?
How about a development of beta-Chrysalis? It would solve most problems quite well. (It could loss its mutation ability after a number of meiosis.)
It would prevent full Imago on earth. Mukade and Barabas could had been test subjects already. smile

(BTW, seeing how Muro's Syndicate is given to gratuitous violence, I can't really see why old-school Ninja would stick with such creeps)

Current events took place from Nov 22 up to Dec 3 (2032). (Maybe Mukade swear allegiance to Syndicate before Muro got to power.) I expect him to be an old-school ninja until he got a DC, might be 10 plus X years ago. This was also start for his corruption.
Now Geyser you have your kill bill assassin. smile
(If you want we could even try building in "Mukade=Muro’s teacher"-theorie somehow...)

1.3)    Konoko "denied her bloodlust"
First, in real bloodlust she could had him sliced and diced or thrown him from roof, what ever. But no, she stayed clean .. I like irony and black humour lot you know?^^ .. Yes I will not take it for granted. It's only one POV.

Second, I don't believe in telepathic...
I just dislike writing stuff a whole day. Let me now specify:
This theory of Daodan caused bloodlust is build by two factors.
-  the chenille thing ..(sensing spread Daodan particle)
-  plus a tance-like mind caused of adrenalin and stuff
    (not unlike your mentioned falling in love comparison*)
    point is: it made her able to think how Mukade would react and how he could feel
    .. she is a victim of her own illusion that is reason for her monologues

I can't see why she'd deny a telepathic link to Muro. He's not only a bastard, he's her brother and she knows it.

"(Mutant) Muro" influenced his mutation by his personality or even by his will (also stripeytiger** think so in an other tread).
You must only imagine that she could deny her bad side and so DC mutate again. She isn't able to feel other DC any longer, also no more illusions wink


(I don't think that DC is totally uncontrollable(*) nor totally controllable(**).
My point of view is that body and ghost are same important for the development. But that's still the "human-sized" theory and I'm not sure how many of you like it.)

Last edited by paradox-01 (2/2/07 14:09)

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