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#51 23/12/07 7:41

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

geyser wrote:

No, "Chrysalis to the people" is a no-way.

Why?


Work in progress...

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#52 23/12/07 8:56

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

Ultimatum479 wrote:
geyser wrote:

No, "Chrysalis to the people" is a no-way.

Why?

"Chrysalis to the people" means hordes of Muros VS hordes of Mais, or worse.
Armaggeddon. And human nature lets one expect much more Muros than Mais.
Before Mai and Muro, Hasegawa's project was merely unethical. Now it's insane.
It's all the stranger as Mai embraced it at the end of Oni, just as Muro had done.
Hasegawa, in my opinion, never planned to implant the Chrysalis to everybody.

Last edited by geyser (23/12/07 9:00)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#53 23/12/07 20:08

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

I'm not saying that it'd be pretty, but why is that not an interesting environment for Oni 2? Not everyone would be equal in power, after all: Mukade had the Daodan Chrysalis a lot longer than Mai (assuming that _is_ the source of his powers) and yet Konoko won in their duel. Mai and Muro are probably far more powerful than other Daodan symbiotes would be.


Work in progress...

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#54 23/12/07 21:53

gorilla325
Member
Registered: 29/11/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

i mean konoko could become a legend, or something after she died few decades.  thus, the story could go on with whatever developers brainstormed.  of course, it should still stay true to Oni world.  i don't want to see a very deep story, i think simpler is better.  i think creating interesting characters is more important than story, espeically for an action game.  not that i don't enjoy a good story, but satisfying melee, and perfect combination with platforming and gunplay beats a game with good story but bad gameplay mechanics.   

oh, about fighting system, it would be cool if we could acquire combos by learning from different characters, books, or even something in the matrix.  this way, players could forge a unique play style of their own, same way we acquired different magics in Sacrifice.  of course, the melee mechanics should be really twisted and tested, improved.  so kept Spam Moves to the minimal. 

oh, and i'd like to see developers help the modders more.  look at max payne series.  i mean, max payne is good.  but with so many excellent mods, this game lives and popularises so much more.  i wish Oni could be like that too.

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#55 23/12/07 22:16

Your_Mom
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 31/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

I still like the ideas discussed in ASFO2 better.

oh, about fighting system, it would be cool if we could acquire combos by learning from different characters, books, or even something in the matrix.  this way, players could forge a unique play style of their own, same way we acquired different magics in Sacrifice.  of course, the melee mechanics should be really twisted and tested, improved.  so kept Spam Moves to the minimal.

I believe this was touched upon in the aforementioned thread...something about fighting Muro in dreams and learning new combos in a RPG-ish kinda way...forgot the details...


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#56 23/12/07 22:32

gorilla325
Member
Registered: 29/11/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

i just went over to the site geyser linked.  my gosh...you guys were like doing an anatomy on Oni's storyline and background.  tongue  since i don't really care about story taht much, i will stop.  hope if the sequel really came out, your ideas would be implemented.  that would be awesome!

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#57 23/12/07 23:02

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

I'm beginning to think I may be in over my head with ANY speculation with him. I'm no idiot and he makes my head spin with all this stuff.

One thing that'd be neat is expanding on the original game. In flashbacks, you could 'add' to scenes instead of simply retelling to them.

For example, Mai VS Shinitama in the drone harness.
When she goes up to the consoles, she could be inputting in stuff like "I know the truth now."

Anyone read Ghosts of Onyx? The last Nylund Halo novel?
What Halsey does to get the AIs attention is similar.

In this way, we could expand on the story without binding the story to a clunky, old narrative.

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#58 24/12/07 6:13

Ultimatum479
Member
Registered: 29/8/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

gorilla325 wrote:

i mean konoko could become a legend, or something after she died few decades.

Why does everyone want Konoko to die a few decades later for Oni 2? The Chrysalis will keep her alive a helluva lot longer than that.


Work in progress...

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#59 24/12/07 9:15

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

i mean konoko could become a legend, or something after she died few decades.

That was my idea, yeah. After Oni she hid away and blanked out for 20 years, as the culmination of her self-denial.
When she comes back, she's amnesiac, and only a few people remember the "terrorist" from before the Cataclysm.

i don't want to see a very deep story, i think simpler is better.

Oh. I'm not trying to complexify it, just to make sense or every detail smile

satisfying melee, and perfect combination with platforming and gunplay beats a game with good story but bad gameplay mechanics.

Well, a playable sequel would have obvious legal issues, even if engines like David's Phoenix make it possible.
So as far as I'm concerned, Oni 2 could just as well be an illustrated and somewhat interactive meta-gamebook.
And when and if someone actually implements Oni-like gameplay and sorts out the legal issues, we'll be ready smile

When she goes up to the consoles, she could be inputting in stuff like "I know the truth now."

Yeah. I think I mentioned that towards the end of the ASFO2 thread wink

oh, and i'd like to see developers help the modders more.

What developers are you talking about?


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#60 24/12/07 10:04

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

It's not odd that Mai embraced the Chrysalis project, when it means allowing people to survive.  And what if the Chrysalises that are given to the average population are not as good as Mai's and Muro's?  Because it's not easy to manufacture them, so they make them cheaply?  I think there are lots of good possibilities with that storyline.  Perhaps the common Chrysalises are defective; sometimes they cause people to go "monster Muro", and then it kills them?  Or wars break out over who gets the Chrysalises, since it takes too long to make them to save the entire population.

Konoko has to have a reason for not being all-powerful against common goons, I think we can agree on that.

Mukade could definitely return.  We don't know that a Daodan host could not survive what Konoko did to him; it seems like she broke his neck.  Hell, regular people survive broken necks.  Some lady fell out of a plane from 10,000 feet (faulty parachute and backup parachute) and landed in a parking lot.  She broke everything.  But she's doing well now.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#61 24/12/07 12:17

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

And what if the Chrysalises that are given to the average population are not as good as Mai's and Muro's?

Second-rate Chrysalises trivialize the Daodan concept, which is not a good thing.
And either way you'll still have to deal with the issues of eugenics and anarchy.
Not to mention the ever-present dillemma of the Daodan as loss of control...

Mukade could definitely return.  We don't know that a Daodan host could not survive what Konoko did to him

Mukade is never actually seen or heard in Oni, so he can return even if he's dead.
The only distinctive feature is that he has a visceral link to Mai and loves riddles smile

Konoko has to have a reason for not being all-powerful against common goons, I think we can agree on that.

Indeed, but as the plot unfolds, she may get to face tougher and tougher enemies, or more and more weaklings.

Last edited by geyser (24/12/07 12:21)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#62 24/12/07 18:25

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

>> Yeah. I think I mentioned that towards the end of the ASFO2 thread

Figures. The more and more I check, the more it seems I'm inevitably falling for your ideas.
While the death of Shinitama, Muro and the entirety of the games events and the end seem good enough material to forge a 'broken heroine' scenario, what would you think would drive it across more?
I've been toying with the idea of the fallout she created killing people she might know/try to protect early on. Maybe even Griffin. I cant help but think she had to have somethin with him. Didn't he supposedly treat her like a daughter? wink

>>Hasegawa, in my opinion, never planned to implant the Chrysalis to everybody.

...Huh?
He developed the Daodan as a dynamic patch to cure not one toxin, but all toxins. He did this primarily to allow people to survive in the wastelands and loosen the grip of the WCG.
I'd say he would have intended to do so, otherwise wouldn't that be rather counter productive?

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#63 24/12/07 20:19

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

"Figures. The more and more I check, the more it seems I'm inevitably falling for your ideas."
No no no. Much as I'm starting to like "my" theory, it is worthless if there are no alternatives.
As you may have noted on the other thread, I'm quite willing to help build those alternatives.

While the death of Shinitama, Muro and the entirety of the games events and the end seem good enough material to forge a 'broken heroine' scenario, what would you think would drive it across more?

Well, we've looked at that for a while and thought it would be nice to have Mai go roam the wasteland for a while after the events of Oni, meet a few people, learn a few things, and eventually fall into a coma (which is the closest she can get to suicide). The actual sequel would start when the amnesiac (hence nameless) protagonist wakes up.
The reason why she'd hate herself to the point of wishing her life away is the death toll of her fateful initiative in Oni's last chapter, and perhaps the growing awareness that it was an irrational, horrible thing to do (I mean, killing millions instantly with a "blam! love, little sister"... she clearly was in some sort of second state there and then).
The problem with Griffin's death is that he has had a few chances to die in Oni, so it's best not to specify when and how he died, unless you want to specify a canonic ending for Oni.

He developed the Daodan as a dynamic patch to cure not one toxin, but all toxins. He did this primarily to allow people to survive in the wastelands and loosen the grip of the WCG.

"Loosening the grip of the WCG"... that's something new and well worth developing. Please do.
However, there are issues with "Chrysalis to the people" which I've detailed above (repeatedly).
Apart from eugenics and anarchy, one could note just what it took to monitor a single symbiote.
And if you don't monitor them, they're all potential Barabases and Mutant Muros. Armaggeddon.
It's an ethical nightmare. That's why Kerr says "we never planned to implant those Chrysalises".
It may sound absurd, but obviously Kerr agrees to the experiments as long as they are in vitro.
Now, either Hasegawa really dreamed of what Muro said he dreamed of, or he pretended to.
The second, "completely different", possibility is pretty much at the heart of "truth number zero"...


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#64 24/12/07 21:20

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

Hmmm. It may have been an idea from the start, at least. To develop on/from TNZ article, I wouldn't be suprised if Mukade changed it to something more 'practical'.
Even if the whole ecological breakdown happened and humanity had to adapt, it might be possible to reverse engineer an immunity from a Daodan -- watch how they adapt, and come up with a patch that does that without the whole mess a full blown Daodan creates.

Going against the WCG is only logical -- The ecological mess, at the very least, seems to be able to continue because it allows them to govern in their Big Brother fashion even easier. Much like modern corporations and rampant downsizing and outsourcing, I'd imagine.
As well,

2_43_04 Hasegawa: Jamie was an activist. She knew government was concealing the facts about the environmental crisis. She was determined to set things straight no matter what the cost.

2_43_05 Hasegawa: Jamie convinced me to join in the struggle. We both knew it was dangerous but we were young and thought we were indestructible.

I'd find it hard to believe someone like Jamie would have only minded the ecological disaster and not any Orwellian sort of government. And being 'convinced', I'd imagine those beliefs would become imprinted on Hasegawa.

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#65 25/12/07 10:12

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

watch how they adapt, and come up with a patch that does that without the whole mess a full blown Daodan creates.

Yes, that was probably the point of the in vitro experiments that occurred before the raid...
Actually, it's sensible enough so as to possibly undermine the "completely different" theory.
What if Hasegawa really hoped to trim the Chrysalis down to a harmless resilience patch?
Then Hasegawa would no longer be the deceiver he's pictured as in "truth number zero".

The ecological mess, at the very least, seems to be able to continue because it allows them to govern in their Big Brother fashion even easier.

That, and the cops-and-criminals "struggle" with the Syndicate. With an appropriate media coverage, of course.
The WCG presents itself as the only alternative to chaos. Hence the Orwellian "arrested development" of society.

And being 'convinced', I'd imagine those beliefs would become imprinted on Hasegawa.

Yeah. So we're back to exploring possibilities. When Hasegawa says "I'm going to do something about the nightmare that killed her", just what nightmare does he mean, and what course of action does he mean to take? Resilience patch? Maybe, but it's a weird solution because it doesn't do anything about the cause of the problem. Is Hasegawa OK with such a flaw? Maybe. After all, he's a biologist, and can't see any other way to make himself useful. Maybe.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#66 25/12/07 15:13

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

Unless he had the opportunity and capacity to do otherwise wink
But yes, I very much doubt the WCG would be on his "nice" list. A smart and VERY motivated person [rightly pissed off, even if you want to blame their own youthful sense of 'courage'] would probably draw the connection easily.

Oh, and just got a fresh new copy on Oni for PS2.

-Easy mode seems more difficult than medium o0
-If Oni 2 is a game, someone do something about the joystick sensitivity >>;;

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#67 26/12/07 3:27

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 1/9/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

things you all seem to foget; the WCG is a puppet master, the Syndicate are simply the mafia under a different name.
Konoko is well and truly screwed if she doesn't get outside help because although she is superhuman there is only her.
happy hunting.

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#68 26/12/07 3:31

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

"the WCG is a puppet master" Yes, an old and tired one.
"the Syndicate are simply the mafia under a different name." The syndicate is no more. Muro's Strikers are fresh blood. And they pwn the WCG.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#69 26/12/07 3:48

LastmanSAC
Member
From: Land-down-under,VIC, Ballarat
Registered: 1/9/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

so you're saying that the Syndicate is no longer an orginized crime group but a violent freedom (liberal- i know) movement.
I find that hard to believe- oh wait, yeah, cults...damn.
Anyway, the WCG was doomed to fall apart (social decay, yeah!) but its death blow will be interesting.

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#70 26/12/07 3:51

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

"is no longer an orginized crime group but a violent freedom (liberal- i know) movement." Muro redefined it, yes. They still have a scientific/technological backbone, but as an entity they're terrorists now, with a sorta promethean ideal.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#71 26/12/07 21:59

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

I wouldn't say Terrorists, as much as an opposing military force. They probably don't care, in terms of pure ideology and agenda, about scaring the ever loving shite out of people (not to say that some Strikes don't enjoy gunning down random people in airports) but rather Muro's long term goal: Sturmdamerung.

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#72 27/12/07 6:43

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

Well, Muro's Sturmanderung [sic!] is a global act of bio-terrorism.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#73 27/12/07 17:45

VidBoi7
Member
Registered: 21/12/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

Hmmm. An event intended to put pressure on governing bodies and people.

I suppose that would fit. Pressure on government to bend -- and, maybe, break -- and the people to change. Literally.

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#74 27/12/07 18:55

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 14/1/07
Website

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

Sturm und Drang wink


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#75 27/12/07 22:24

Raptor
Member
From: Florida
Registered: 21/3/07

Re: Ideas for Oni 2

well im wondering, would it really take 20 years for the Syndacate to take over the Government? and considering what lastman said, Konoko could get extra help from the surrounding countries but im not to sure how far the polution spread and if the Syndicate has control over the remaining countries and how much help she would get if any. Im not to sure if youve already discussed this but she might be able to meet another Chrysalis being from one of the surviving nations and discover that other ceartain TCTF headquarters have been expirimenting with Daoden and Chrysalis with other being worldwide. remember that I only have had the game for 3 days so excuse any stupid statements lol.


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