Oni Central Forum

A forum for the Oni community

You are not logged in.

#1 21/8/13 8:21

Morridin
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 28/11/08
Website

h2w System

Hiyalls It's been quite a while since my last visit, amazing to see how much the community has grown since 08, anyway back to the topic. I'd like to know if its possible to install Loser's h2w System through AE Package Installer.

Offline

#2 24/8/13 0:40

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: h2w System

Hi Morridin, my big apologies for very late reply.
H2w system was basically just a tech demo, it never made its bones as a fully developed modification.
If you are interested, I can try to revisit the idea and see what I can do for you.

Deal? ^_^

Last edited by Loser (24/8/13 0:40)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#3 24/8/13 9:16

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: h2w System

I'm interested!  Please revisit the idea.

Offline

#4 24/8/13 17:33

Morridin
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 28/11/08
Website

Re: h2w System

Sounds great, if its not too much trouble of course.
If i may ask, is your "Oni Race" mod fully functional or is it in development stage?

Offline

#5 2/9/13 3:51

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: h2w System

Just a quick reminder for Morridin:
The h2w mod is currently in development. Since the new design aims to be as much glitch-proof as possible, there were a few design changes from the tech demo version. Currenly the h2w emitter particles are being mapped to fit knockdown animations. Stay tuned.

Also, "Oni Race" was just a showcase that Oni AI system is quite capable in terms of naviagation on the level and on staircases (with minimum unexpected collisions, as opposed to vanilla Oni). It was not a full modification and never was intended to be one.

It was done to present the features of AI. Oni AI is good with its navigation through level only after pathfinding grids are altered by hand to reflect the probable fact (I cannot see code, I only guess here) that A* algorithm ignores characters' dimensions and generates the shortest path for the "dimensionless point", not for a character which has collision spheres. Thus with vanilla pathfinding grids, AI characters are often allowed to "run into corners", as the A* calculated that the dimensionless point would bypass the corner by a few distance units (but character with its collision spheres gets stucked).

That is the Oni Race. It is a presentation of several manually altered pathfinding grids, which then allow AI characters to run great distances without encountering unexpected collisions with corners and/or railings.

Last edited by Loser (2/9/13 3:52)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#6 2/9/13 19:51

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: h2w System

Morridin: If you want to see the Oni Race in action, play the Old China Mod http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=2357 smile

Offline

#7 4/9/13 3:29

Morridin
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 28/11/08
Website

Re: h2w System

Loser thank you for taking the time to explain all of this.

I forgot about this level, gonna try it out soon.

Loser i'd like to ask you, how did you modified Konoko's disarm move to act like regular one?

This is what i mean: http://loser.oni2.net/Videos/Throw_escape.wmv

Last edited by Morridin (4/9/13 5:36)

Offline

#8 9/9/13 15:09

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: h2w System

Another update for Morridin:
KONoko knockdown and blownup animations are mapped. Curently mapping STRiker knockdowns/blownups. So far so good.

However, be warned this mod will install more than 20 custom PAR3 files. There was lately some discussion that due to some development oversight, Oni has rather tight space for PAR3 particle amount which the old poor software can handle. Unless something was changed via Daodan DLL, this mod will most probably not be compatible with other PAR3 adding mods, such as Samer's custom characters.


Also, the video file posted by you is an old proof-of-concept of a possible throw escape mechanism. Bonetrack animations in used TRAM files were mercilessly shuffled around, that's why you can see pistol disarm animation. No extra trick involved, simple *.raw data swap.

Last edited by Loser (9/9/13 15:10)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#9 11/9/13 5:57

Morridin
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 28/11/08
Website

Re: h2w System

Thanks for the heads up. These are all my questions for the moment.

Offline

#10 11/9/13 17:33

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: h2w System

Morridin, this is what was created in response to your request:
Video demonstration

Mod is not published yet, I need to create a package and before that, some help with patching and packages would be helpful (who would like to help, please see the final paragraph).

The modification adds h2w feature only to knockdowns and blownups.
To make sure the wall-sensing particles are emitted as much accurately as possible, each TRAM requires its own unique emitter.

That means while the h2w feature would definitely make sense for some throws and some attacks (Striker's headbutt dash), there is already very high PAR3 count with just knockdowns and blownups.

The system is still not totally failproof. I estimate the feature works as intended in about 90% of cases. In the rest 10%, the feature either does not kick in (wall sensing mechanism fails) or the feature accidentaly hurts some very close bystander instead of the knockdowned character.

Also, blue shield is (in) a problem with this mod. Blue shield is drained very quickly by a stream of wall-collision particles if the blue-shielded character is knockdowned or blownuped. There is no solid counter-measure to this behavior up to my knowledge (no such a thing as "ignore blue shield" PAR3 flag).



All in all, while this is probably the only way how to achieve wall interaction without altering engine, it is NOT a good way. Wall interaction oughts to be handled via engine functionality, not through some obscure particle mess.


Question for Iritscen, Samer or Paradox - this mod reqires a change in the ONCP part for all ONCC files. I have read something about the possibility to just "patch" files via the AE package instead of completely replacing them. How does that feature of AE work, please? How to "patch" the file through AE package? Thank you in advance.

Last edited by Loser (11/9/13 17:39)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#11 11/9/13 18:56

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: h2w System

Hi Loser smile I can't really say it better than the wiki:  How to create a patch: http://wiki.oni2.net/Making_a_patch_mod
and this is about how to make the AE2 ready package http://wiki.oni2.net/Making_a_mod_package.

I like the video, if i can make a suggestion though is there a way to not have collision with the ground too ? only the walls ?

edit: about the patches if the wiki entries are not enough .. s10k is the best person to ask, I'm still a newbie at patches and had a lot of unanswered questions myself http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=2576. s10k & Iritscen were working on improving and testing some new features (?) not sure how that turned out.

Last edited by Samer (13/9/13 8:55)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#12 14/9/13 18:31

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: h2w System

The "h2w system" modification is finished. The AE2.0 compatible package can be downloaded here.. Many thanks for Samer who pointed me to patch tutorials.
The mod is considered released. Feel free to abuse contents of this modification up to your wishes (and modding needs).


I have always thought Oni Mod depot utilizes OCF username/password. I was wrong. Oops.
Anyway, since I am stopping Oni acitvities for an uncertain (but very long) time period now after this mod is finally finished, there is in my opinion no reason to harass with a request to setup a Depot account.

Can I please kindly ask you Iritscen to tryout the package and if it doesn't exhibit any mischievous behavior to place it in the "Particle" section? Thank you very much in advance.



Well Morridin, here we go, almost finished. After the mod is placed on Depot, you will be able to enjoy the wall smashing action ^_^

As for Samer's suggestion:
Samer, making the mechanism active all the way down to the ground is the only way to ensure fair combat conditions and somwheat reliable wall detection. If the feautre was to work without the floor collision, there would be much higher density of situations in which the knockdowned/blownuped character would bypass the wall sensor particle without triggering the wall smash damage action.

Well, I hope the product satifies the client ^_^.
See you all folks, I will stop a few times in the next five six days to check if the package passed Iritscen's bug test and was placed on Depot. And then bye bye again, that's the life.

Last edited by Loser (14/9/13 18:31)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#13 14/9/13 19:36

Morridin
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 28/11/08
Website

Re: h2w System

Hey, great job. I always thought these game functions should of been part of Oni, wall collisions and obstacle throws.

Can't wait to give it a go, i'm sure i won't be the only one who will enjoy this. ^^

Thanks again cheers.

Last edited by Morridin (14/9/13 19:39)

Offline

#14 15/9/13 14:32

uroboros
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 14/10/11

Re: h2w System

Nice work. A fresh element to oni combat system.

As for Samer's suggestion:
Samer, making the mechanism active all the way down to the ground is the only way to ensure fair combat conditions and somwheat reliable wall detection. If the feautre was to work without the floor collision, there would be much higher density of situations in which the knockdowned/blownuped character would bypass the wall sensor particle without triggering the wall smash damage action.

I also think that wall collision only would be better. Just because it would encourage player to utilize the fighting arena.
But if oni technology is a problem here, the mod is also good as it is now. Pushing enemies into walls is fun as hell big_smile

Last edited by uroboros (15/9/13 17:32)

Offline

#15 15/9/13 14:51

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: h2w System

Interesting concept..and well done. But i have a question, Why only head damage, and why not entire body? It will be more realistic(and stop falling legs arms etc trough walls), if all body parts will have such particles. Or maybe there is a particular reason that such system will not work(except blue shield problem)?
And loser I have a 2 questions , if you don't mind.
1)Is there a way to create moves that cause more that one damage, other than adding particles?Somebody mentioned here that trows flag can do such things, but throws are non interruptible right?
2)Can you explain to me how the dynamic holstering work?I'm really interesting in using it in my modification(if my personal weapons project fail - still unable to control where character should shoot or whom)or make AI to start h2h combat when in close(rather than escaping and shooting).
Can you give me advice here?Thanks in advance.

Last edited by ltemplar (15/9/13 15:02)

Offline

#16 15/9/13 18:05

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: h2w System

mmm I posted it on the depot for you loser (converted it to zip and added the description from mod cfg and links to this thread and video) but then i noticed that you wrote Iritscen specifically in bold tongue so I unpublished it, sorry for jumping in. Iritscen it's still there if you want to republish it after you test it like Loser said. http://mods.oni2.net/node/298.
and good job loser, my thought about ground collision was that when a character hits the ground knowckdown or thrown or whatever damage has already been dealt so to add more damage when the target hits the ground again maybe overpowers the move ... for walls it only happens if the character is near the wall but for the ground .. it's always there.

ltemplar wrote:

Why only head damage, and why not entire body? It will be more realistic(and stop falling legs arms etc trough walls)

i agree that it would look better especially for the throws when the body hits the wall ... but like Loser said that would need many additional Trams modifications and if added to more than the head I'm guessing we'll have a particle overload. (hence that wish\request of mine to increase particle limit by the engine ^_^)

Last edited by Samer (15/9/13 20:14)


Join our Oni Facebook Group
Check My YouTube Channel for my Oni Videos.
Check My Wiki page for all my stuff

Offline

#17 15/9/13 21:52

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: h2w System

Okay, thanks for letting me know, Samer.  I have the mod in my folder of things to do, so I should get to it soon.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#18 16/9/13 17:10

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: h2w System

Samer wrote:

but like Loser said that would need many additional Trams modifications and if added to more than the head I'm guessing we'll have a particle overload. (hence that wish\request of mine to increase particle limit by the engine ^_^)

Maybe maybe not. If i understand this system correctly(correct me loser if I'm wrong) he created special particles that are generated when selected tram is executed(fall for example).Then when the particle hit the ground/wall it is generating hit effect(micro blown up)that do a additional damage to charter. The additional particles are require for the materials edits in wall/floor material hit tree structure.So I see no problem in adding additional particles for legs or arms(other that character will get more damage/blown ups when they come in contact with selected material executing selected tram).I don't know the limits unfortunately for the: how many particles the one tram can have regarding to single bone; but this also I think, can be bypassed by multi-functional particles(that will work for wall damage system but also glass break moves or/too character fall damage).

So in concussion I think it's doable, but require a huge amount of work to put this together.

Last edited by ltemplar (16/9/13 17:15)

Offline

#19 21/9/13 7:56

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: h2w System

Ltemplar, h2w system works as follows:

  • TRAM Animation with attached h2w emitter (*_eXX) starts playing.

  • The emitter starts emitting p01 particle. It emits one p01 particle each two frames.

  • This p01 particle lives around 2 frames. It is allowed to collide with walls.

  • If p01 particle does not collide with walls during its lifetime, it simply dies. If it collides with wall, it emits exactly one p02 particle and dies.

  • The emitted p02 particle lives around 2 frames as well. It also has an attractor. The attractor is the emitter particle (*_eXX). So the p02 particle is attracted back to the emitter.

  • The p02 particle has collision with characters. Upon collision with a character, DamageChar action is called.

If I went for the "micro DamageBlast" solution, it would produce too may stray hits (damaging nearby characters, not only the target one).

This is why particle is attached to neck only. It is enough. There is no reason to attach this system to all bones.
I guess I understand what you would like to achieve in the end, however please, bear in mind: if you have a WODDEN claymore (medieval straight sword), then you can carve it, brush it, paint it and even harden it, but it will never be a STEEL katana (Japanese curved sword). Yes, both are swords, but you cannot completely recreate one of them to be exactly like the other one, because the material they are made of is different and so is their original design.

And this h2w system is the same. No matter how close we try to emulate the combat wall interaction, it will ALWAYS be lacking. Because the only proper way is to handle this feature is via ENGINE functionality, not through some particle interactions. Particle solution is a mere workaround.





Also, you asked for my dynamic hosltering workaround attempt.
First: BIG thanks for gumby's new BSL commands. It would not be possible to design this feature workaround as clean as it is now without them. Thank you, Gumby.
HERE YOU GO
The package is ONLY FOR TECH PURPOSES, IT IS NOT A STANDALONE MOD AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE DISTRIBUTED AS A STANDALONE MOD.

When you install the package, it will add neccessary TRAM animations, update TRACs and add a global BSL script "glb_dynamic_holster_script.bsl"
After that, you can hook the feature to any active locked AI2 character. That means the AI2 character has to be "chr_lock_actived" or a general command chr_all_active=1 must be in effect.

How to add the feature for a particular AI2 character:
From your BSL script, call this function:

glb_dynho_f_setup(string strSourceCharName, string strTargetCharName, int nDistanceHolster, int nDistanceUnholsterMin, int nDistanceUnholsterMax)

# meaning of parameters:
#	string	strSourceCharName	<- name of the character, which will have the dynamic holster ability (AI characters)
#	string	strTargetCharName	<- name of the character, which will be the target of Source character's dynamic holster behavior (most often Konoko character)
#	int	nDistanceHolster	<- distance between Source and Target, in which the Source will holster its weapon because Target got too close.							Recommended value is 50.
#	int	nDistanceUnholsterMin	<- minimal distance between Source and Target, in which the Source will attempt to temporarily unholster its weapon even tough Target is within the DistanceHolster.	Recommended value is 20.
#	int	nDistanceUnholsterMax	<- maximal distance between Source and Target, in which the Source will attempt to temporarily unholster its weapon even tough Target is within the DistanceHolster.	Recommended value is 50.

For example, if you want to add the feature for A_t48 (first thug at first Warehouse savepoint), you will write this to the script:
glb_dynho_f_setup("A_t48", "char_0", 50, 20, 50)

Give the thug some weapon (and maybe some spare ammo), turn on invincibility and test the feature for yourself.

Last edited by Loser (21/9/13 10:10)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

Offline

#20 21/9/13 8:52

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: h2w System

Loser: Thanks for your sharing your mods.  One more request, you had a demo of a ninja that could jump up on crates to follow the player.  Would you please tell us how this was done.

Offline

#21 21/9/13 11:17

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: h2w System

Loser not offense , but i know that the best solution will be to hack engine in the h2h wall damage case(or any oni), but neither I neither You(or maybe I'm wrong) have enough knowledge or time to do it. So lets talk about real or rather more possible things we can do.
Your system is quite nice I must admit, but it has it's flaws.So my question was if thous flaws are intentional(and it seams Yes) or, there is another reason for theirs existence. 
But thanks for the explanation anyway.

What regard dynamic holstering feature, I was really curious is there a way around, other than using scripting(like changing characters AI to use taunt system differently for example).It seams the answer is no.

I also Asked is there a way to change the AI behavior in h2h to force it to use particular moves(and only them) on the proper ranges other than very close, or use h2h combat when it's in range(no mater if they have weapons or not).
The other question(maybe indirect) was is there a way to show where this move(attack) should aim (for example where the character is looking). No answer yet.

That lecture about the wooden stick that mimic steel katana is exactly what moding is about.....and we all try to mimic this katana as close as possible.

Last edited by ltemplar (21/9/13 11:18)

Offline

#22 26/9/13 17:59

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: h2w System

I've moved all the subsequent off-topic posts to the new thread "Engine hacking questions 2" (sorry, the "2" was an accident that I can't fix).

On the subject of the parkouring Mukade, I'm sure that Loser explained that somewhere before, but I can't find it at the moment.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB