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#1 11/3/13 8:23

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Okay, so here's the story.  Better (AKA Improved) Weapons was intended by Gumby and I to be a full re-balance of Oni's weapons for the AE.  But when it came time to release the 2010 Edition, we weren't done with this package, so we released it as-is.  However, it's really incomplete, so I'm simply uploading it as a standard package; it could use a new owner who wants to finish it.  Here it is: http://mods.oni2.net/node/264.

Now, I've seen some complaints about Oni's weapons not being strong enough.  Although there are some buffs here, the goal is NOT to make the weapons so formidable that you don't stand a chance against them if you are trying to melee.  I believe that Bungie intentionally nerfed the weapons in order to promote melee combat and I think that was a logical decision.  However, they may have gone too far in some cases, like the Plasma Rifle.  Anyway, to give you an idea of what this does so far, here's the change list.  There's a summary of major changes for each changed weapon, and then some more details for each of the 11 files currently in the mod.

1. tctf_autopistol:
- Adjusted AI dodging firespread.

ONWCw1_tap
firespread length 180 -> 10000
firespread skew 0.10471758 -> 0.01


2. syn_autopistol:
- Adjusted AI dodging firespread.

ONWCw2_sap
firespread length 150 -> 500
firespread skew 0.209439516 -> 0.1


3. ph_rifle:
I think everyone knows that the Plasma Rifle is easily dodged by weaving left and right while the AI is firing at you.  Even a single step to the left and then the right can make you untouchable.  In order to counter that:
- Increased the collision radius so that the shot hits its target more easily.  Now the projectile doesn't have to hit you to do damage -- with the collision radius, it's as if the shot has a proximity fuze.
- Causes minor stun to make dodging harder.  If anything, I think we should increase the stun length, it's still quite easy to dodge this weapon while charging the enemy.

ONWCw3_phr
firespread length 0 -> 10000
firespread width 0 -> 4

BINA3RAPw3_phr_p01
collision radius 0 -> 1.5
stun damage 10 frames -> 2 frames
damage type normal -> minor stun


4. ph_stream
- Adjusted AI dodging firespread.

ONWCw4_psm
firespread length 120 -> 750
firespread width 10 -> 8


7. scramble
- Only Gumby knew what he was attempting to do with the geometry-related changes.  If we can't figure out what changed, it might be better to reset the weapon to the original geometry.
- Primary trigger has better turning radius for the scram missiles.
- Added a sound radius.  It's set to 300, the same as w1_tap, so the enemy can actually hear the weapon when it fires -- except it's not as loud as a pistol, so I think the radius should be smaller.
- It looks like the skill index wasn't set by Bungie (unless that was intentional), so Gumby set it to actually point to the correct ONCC skill setting for this weapon.
- Added a secondary trigger.  Holding it fires invisible missiles one at a time.  My understanding is that Gumby was trying to make a smarter missile that avoided walls and was better at homing in on the enemy, but I'm not so sure this experiment improves weapon balance.

ONWCw7_scc
[misc. changes to geometry and inverse direction, direction, origin]
particle count 9 -> 10
+SecondaryFire
prediction speed 0 -> 120
aim radius 0 -> 2.5
AI sound radius 0 -> 300
min. shooting distance 0 -> 18
max. shooting distance 0 -> 200
max. startle misses 0 -> 5
skill index 0 -> 7
+emitter w7_scc_e01_a

BINA3RAPw7_scc_p01
max angle 70 -> 360
turn speed 40 -> 80
+new attractor disablenow action 3

BINA3RAPw7_scc_e01_a
compared to primary trigger BINA3RAPw7_scc_e01
+IncreaseParticleCount
+TurnOffAtTreshold 10 [sic]
copies 10 -> 1
rate Instant -> Continuous w/ Interval 0.3
direction ring -> inaccurate

8. merc_gun:
- Added AI dodging firespread (but how can an AI dodge a single instantaneous shot?).
- Now stuns you instead of knocking you down (I guess the idea was that the weapon shouldn't have that much kick).  Just an interesting historical note, the original concept for this gun, as still seen on its weapon page, was that it would poison you with mercury after hitting.  Perhaps the change from knockdown to stun would make more sense if the weapon did less damage up front and poisoned over time.

ONWCw8_mbo
firespread length 0 -> 100000
firespread width 0 -> 4

BINA3RAPw8_mbo_p01
damage type major knockdown -> major stun


11. barab_gun:
- Added AI dodging firespread.  I suppose that BWest didn't plan on the AI ever having to dodge this so they didn't bother setting the firespread.

ONWCw11_ba1
fire1:
firespread length 0 -> 100000
firespread width 0 -> 4
firespread skew 0 -> 0.01
fire2:
firespread length 0 -> 250
firespread width 0 -> 4
firespread skew 0 -> 0.1


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#2 11/3/13 13:39

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

By continuing it ... Continue it as gumby intended or can we change some concepts ? ..
For example for me:
mercury bow stunning instead of knocking down, doesn't really make sense nor do i see it as an improvement,
1.we have the vdg which stuns.
2. If the stun is long the AI can stun lock you or vice versa which makes it more overpwered,
3.visually it's kinda like a sniper and the bullet is quick you expect the knockdown.
4. It's power is balanced by the high shot delay and low ammo capacity.
5. Slowly draining health would be cool but i think that would require either bsl or some heavy particle modification to the impact file ... and can't a hypo counteract it ?

For the scram cannon ...
The secondary firing mod imo is kinda pointless, first mod shoots rockets that follow you, second mode shoots 1 rocket that follows you ''better'' and uses as much ammo. What i'd do is just improve the homing ability of the first mod (somewhere between the current one and the ninja fireball) ... Or have the second mod use less ammo and do less damage.

And btw iritscen they're not supposed to be invisible missiles (it's a single rocket) when i tested it before.
But if you changed\reset something with the gemoetry that might be why it became invisible for you .. As the single rocket has its own geometry i think.
However adding a secondary mod to a weapon that is not supposed to have it, may (i think, not sure) lead to weird behaviour by AI as it replaces the kick moves that they supposedly can use with that weapon.

For the w2 black adder .. Isn't the whole concept of the weapon that it's deadly at close range but not too much at farther distance ? Changing distance to 500 instead of 150 kinda ruins that and makes it too powerful (imo)

for the plasma rifle i think increasing shot speed a bit and yes increaing explosion radius and stun would be best.

What i also think would be a nice ''improvement'' is improving the textures, like we've done with characters and levels, removing the pixelation and blurs and renewing the envmpas can go a long way.

I'd also name the package modified weapons instead of improved or better as that is a bit subjective. ( example some may consider adding a secondary mod to scram cannon an improvement while others a set back as it loses the ability to do kick moves)
so if the changes i've mentioned sound good i'll work on it ... But won't be done soon ...
And if anyone who is more passionate about weapons and experienced would like to do it, like ltemplar or whoever ... then by all means they should do so, because honestly personally i don't use weapons much in game and not really excited about it, but i'll do it if no one else wants to tongue


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#3 11/3/13 15:57

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Samer wrote:

By continuing it ... Continue it as gumby intended or can we change some concepts ?

I'm opening it up to anyone who has a personal vision for what weapons should be.  Gumby won't have a sentimental attachment to the mod after all this time, and I myself hardly even know what his intentions were, so I wouldn't be able to tell what is or is not what Gumby intended.  My only objection would be to make the weapons too much stronger than melee, as I mentioned, but I'm not the one maintaining the package, so that's just my opinion.  Since it's no longer a bundled AE mod, it's okay if the package works according to the opinions of the person who takes it over.

2. If the stun is long the AI can stun lock you or vice versa which makes it more overpwered

Yes, but this is just a stagger.  The Bow would have to stun you for a LONG time to be able to stun lock the target smile

3.visually it's kinda like a sniper and the bullet is quick you expect the knockdown.

I agree; I'm not quite sure what advantage the stun offered over a knockdown.

5. Slowly draining health would be cool but i think that would require either bsl or some heavy particle modification to the impact file ... and can't a hypo counteract it ?

Perhaps, but at least it costs you a hypo then, so there's still a cost.  Personally I'm not strongly advocating for this, the weapon description just seemed interesting so I mentioned it.

The secondary firing mod[e] imo is kinda pointless, first mod[e] shoots rockets that follow you, second mode shoots 1 rocket that follows you ''better'' and uses as much ammo.

No, for the secondary trigger you're supposed to hold it.  It continues firing new missiles every 0.3 seconds.  Didn't you read the changelog above? smile

And btw iritscen they're not supposed to be invisible missiles (it's a single rocket) when i tested it before.
But if you changed\reset something with the gemoetry that might be why it became invisible for you .. As the single rocket has its own geometry i think.

I'm not sure what went wrong there.  All I can say is that I tested the package that came with the 2010 AE and the rockets themselves were invisible.  The emitter, BINA3RAPw7_scc_e01_a, is set to Invisible, but I think that's supposed to be that way because the primary trigger is too (BINA3RAPw7_scc_e01).

However adding a secondary mod[e] to a weapon that is not supposed to have it, may (i think, not sure) lead to weird behaviour by AI as it replaces the kick moves that they supposedly can use with that weapon.

I don't think so; the AI will just ignore it (although we might be able to teach them how to use it, like Barabas does).  The AI only punches and kicks with a weapon once it's out of ammo.  They actually change their internal combat status from "shooting" to "melee", I believe.

For the w2 black adder .. Isn't the whole concept of the weapon that it's deadly at close range but not too much at farther distance ? Changing distance to 500 instead of 150 kinda ruins that and makes it too powerful (imo)

Look again, no weapons had their distances (or skew) changed.  Those are the settings for the AI dodging firespread (see the note on "Fire spread" on the XML:ONWC page).  I think Gumby felt the fire spreads were too wide (in other cases they were non-existent) and wanted to improve the AI dodging responses.  In vanilla Oni, of course, the firespread settings didn't matter much because the dodging was mostly broken!

I'd also name the package modified weapons instead of improved or better as that is a bit subjective.

Yes, or maybe something like "More Dangerous Weapons".

And if anyone who is more passionate about weapons and experienced would like to do it, like ltemplar or whoever ... then by all means they should do so

I think it's okay if the package sits around for a while until someone is feeling passionate about it and wants to take on the challenge (and resulting arguments over balance smile).


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#4 11/3/13 23:32

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Iritscen wrote:

Yes, but this is just a stagger.  The Bow would have to stun you for a LONG time to be able to stun lock the target smile

oh ok because you said "major stun" i presumed it's .. a major stun tongue ... I didn't test it.

No, for the secondary trigger you're supposed to hold it.  It continues firing new missiles every 0.3 seconds.  Didn't you read the changelog above? smile

is this a changelog by you ? cause you said you're uploading as is ... and that didn't work first time i tested it. and would each missile use a full ammo ? meaning if you press for 1.5 sec you'll empty the whole ammo meter ? (didn't test this new version yet)

I'm not sure what went wrong there.  All I can say is that I tested the package that came with the 2010 AE and the rockets themselves were invisible.  The emitter, BINA3RAPw7_scc_e01_a, is set to Invisible, but I think that's supposed to be that way because the primary trigger is too (BINA3RAPw7_scc_e01).

don't know they showed up for me when i tested it before.

I don't think so; the AI will just ignore it (although we might be able to teach them how to use it, like Barabas does).  The AI only punches and kicks with a weapon once it's out of ammo.  They actually change their internal combat status from "shooting" to "melee", I believe.

mmm not always, i clearly recall enemies with phase projector shooting and stopping to fight then shooting again, i was thinking about combat ID .. for some characters it's stand and shoot some fight and shoot depending on distance, so i was thinking if characters with that combat id go to fight with the scram cannon using their kicks they'll shoot instead. but not sure if that will be the case.

Look again, no weapons had their distances (or skew) changed.

oops my bad, missed the firespread line.

... (and resulting arguments over balance smile).

oh sounds fun tongue

Last edited by Samer (11/3/13 23:33)


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#5 11/3/13 23:57

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Samer wrote:

is this a changelog by you ? cause you said you're uploading as is ... and that didn't work first time i tested it. and would each missile use a full ammo ? meaning if you press for 1.5 sec you'll empty the whole ammo meter ? (didn't test this new version yet)

Nope, it uses about the same ammo, simply one missile at a time while you hold down fire2 instead of all 10 at once.  The change log above was prepared by diff-gazing on the XML version of each .oni file.  Notice the part where the scc fire2 emitter was set to Continuous 0.3.


don't know they showed up for me when i tested it before.

Sorry, they are in fact visible, my bad.  What was happening was that when I tested the weapon by shooting at live enemies, the missiles were striking so quickly that I didn't see them.  That's because they launch more directly at the enemy than when a ring of 10 is spawned all at once.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#6 13/3/13 7:06

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Interesting....

But before I decide to change something in this mod I first like to discuss about shooting mechanics(to avoid unwanted misunderstandings)

1)AI - Do you guys intend AI to shoot like the player or maybe this also should be changed?
2)Balance - So how thous weapons should be balanced? More regarding the battlefield behavior(so there will be no imba weapons) or maybe on the ammo capacity(the imba weapons have smaller magazines)?
3)How much they can be changed in comparison to original ones?
4)Dogging - In simple words. Which dodge mechanics the should use, and how easy this should be(both for player and for the AI) - special dodge move(but if then they also should be changed to be more faster than original) , or only strafing(then bullets speed must be tweaked).

What regarding proposed weapon changes:

a)W1- tap - Badly done recoil in comparison to dealt dmg - to high to frustrating in use - making this weapon useless. I propose to decrees it , or increasing weapon dmg(from 15 to 30).

b)w2_sap - This weapon is in the opposite to the idea than melee should be used in CQC situation - Also impossible to dodge in close. My proposition is to change it's firing mode to shoot 6 bullets in one burst (5 shots per magazine) simultaneously incising both recoil and the dmg (from 5 - 10) - this will gave player or AI ability to dodge from direct bullet spread.

c)w3_-phr - Honestly i don't see the point of its existence in the form as it is now. The incresed hit box ..make from this weapon almost impossible to dodge(another imba like mercury bow) so its a bad approach. My proposition is to change it's firing to burst mode (3 shoots in one salvo 10 cages per bullet), add short charge sequence(ala barabas weapon) leave the dmg(so maximum it can done 90 dmg per shoot) add small stun , change firing spreed(to be less precise) and increases ammo capacity from 10 to 30 . This composition should be enough to change it to fearsome weapon and don't make it imba because:
-It's still doge able
-Have high dmg
-The ammunition will not run in seconds (not to mention that energy cells are more rare in game than ammo rounds)
-Charging will gave player the ability to dodge incoming bullet spread in close distance
-Small bullet spread will increase the hit area ,but still allow bullets to miss it's target

w7_scc. My proposition is to increase the bullet speed a lot (4-5 times) but decrees the homing ability. So you will not be able to outrun thous missiles, but still be able to doge them . The second mode(if it will prevail) can lunch unguided , exploding rocket . I also propose to increase the arming distance for missiles( by 3 times) to create small range shotgun.

w5_scr. This weapon is hard to change. My idea is to increase the bluet speed (for primary firing mode) but also reduce the homing ability. In the second mode it can fire the fast moving projectile like missile that can bypass by targets (so you can hurt two or more guys standing in straight fire line). I also consider in adding charge like effect to alarm AI(or player) that something will be soon shoot.

w8_mba (mercury bow) - Imba weapon. My proposition is to add charge like effect(3 or so seconds) before it will shoot .The hit like poison will not work when shield is active, so it's pointless(not to mention problems with ONIA comparability issues, etc). The rest should stay the same. I also propose the ammo increase(to 6 per magazine), and change it from ammo rounds to cell. As you can suspect adding the charge like sequence will nullify this weapon in CQC situation(you get hit before you aim it) and make it useful only from long range(as you should suspect from the sniper like rifle). It will also should remove this cold down trick.

w11_ba - Primary fairing mode - increase speed of the projectile (3 times) - so it will be harder to avoid.
           - secondary mode - Change into projectile like weapon(tank buster cannon)- speed = 800 + original explosion on impact.

Last edited by ltemplar (13/3/13 7:10)

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#7 13/3/13 9:43

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

1)AI - Do you guys intend AI to shoot like the player or maybe this also should be changed?

Hmm, in what terms?  Are you referring to the AI's accuracy?

2)Balance - So how thous weapons should be balanced? More regarding the battlefield behavior(so there will be no imba weapons) or maybe on the ammo capacity(the imba weapons have smaller magazines)?

I think this is the kind of question that you would answer for yourself if you take on the project smile  Again, it's not going to be an official "AE mod" anymore, just a third-party package, so it will be up to you (although maybe others here will want to offer input).  I hadn't personally given much thought to clip size; most weapons seem okay to me, except that the plasma rifle seems to have a surprisingly large clip, at least twice what one would expect, considering how much damage it can do.  When the AI is carrying several clips, it seems like they can keep firing forever (unless some AIs have an infinite ammo clip cheat applied to them or something, but I didn't think that was possible).

3)How much they can be changed in comparison to original ones?

I don't think I can answer this.  You'll know if you've changed them too much if a lot of people complain that they miss the old weapon smile

4)Dogging - In simple words. Which dodge mechanics the should use, and how easy this should be(both for player and for the AI) - special dodge move(but if then they also should be changed to be more faster than original) , or only strafing(then bullets speed must be tweaked).

I only have my personal opinion to offer, which is that nothing should be as easy to dodge as the vanilla plasma rifle.  Or even half that easy.

a)W1- tap - Badly done recoil in comparison to dealt dmg - to high to frustrating in use - making this weapon useless. I propose to decrees it , or increasing weapon dmg(from 15 to 30).

Makes sense to me.  The weapon is, to my knowledge, .44 caliber, so it should be able to do some pretty decent damage.

b)w2_sap - This weapon is in the opposite to the idea than melee should be used in CQC situation - Also impossible to dodge in close. My proposition is to change it's firing mode to shoot 6 bullets in one burst (5 shots per magazine) simultaneously incising both recoil and the dmg (from 5 - 10) - this will gave player or AI ability to dodge from direct bullet spread.

Actually, to clarify what I was saying earlier about allowing melee to exist in balance with weapons, I'm actually okay with a weapon that's very dangerous from one range as long as it's weak in another range (your suggestion for the mbo below is in line with this idea).  The player should know better than to rush someone with the SMG.  If anything, I think the AI should be told not to spray bullets at you from so far away that most of them miss you.  It's not very scary when you can stand still and let the bullets just pass you by.  Whereas seeing the AI running at you in order to get within range -- that's scary.  "No, get away!"  I also like that this weapon is fairly realistic right now as an SMG, so I don't want to see it become a shotgun.

c)w3_-phr - Honestly i don't see the point of its existence in the form as it is now. The incresed hit box ..make from this weapon almost impossible to dodge(another imba like mercury bow) so its a bad approach.

Because of the distance at which the AI shoots at you with this weapon and the overall lack of good long-range weapons for the player, I'd rather see its accuracy stay intact.  Adding a charge time will make it almost impossible to hit a moving target, considering that you already have to anticipate the acceleration of the projectile.  Also, do you really think it's hard to dodge the modified rifle?  I still think it's a bit too easy....  As far as I'm concerned, if you can dash at the AI while zig-zagging and not get hit, it's almost a useless weapon.

w7_scc. My proposition is to increase the bullet speed a lot (4-5 times) but decrees the homing ability. So you will not be able to outrun thous missiles, but still be able to doge them.

This could be interesting.  I'd have to see how it turns out before I have an opinion.  Although I might miss being able to dash away with the missiles following me like slow-moving bees smile

I also propose to increase the arming distance for missiles( by 3 times) to create small range shotgun.

You do realize that hitting the enemy with the unarmed missile spread at close range already does massive damage, right?  It's already a shotgun, in that respect.

w5_scr. This weapon is hard to change. My idea is to increase the bluet speed (for primary firing mode) but also reduce the homing ability. In the second mode it can fire the fast moving projectile like missile that can bypass by targets (so you can hurt two or more guys standing in straight fire line). I also consider in adding charge like effect to alarm AI(or player) that something will be soon shoot.

Personally I'd be opposed to changing this weapon, because you have to remember that it's a living thing.  The Screaming Cell wants to suck your life force.  It's not going to "miss".  Also, the AI is already supposed to be able to dodge this pretty well (except that they often get confused while in CQC and forget to dodge).

w8_mba (mercury bow) - Imba weapon. My proposition is to add charge like effect(3 or so seconds) before it will shoot. [...] As you can suspect adding the charge like sequence will nullify this weapon in CQC situation(you get hit before you aim it) and make it useful only from long range(as you should suspect from the sniper like rifle).

Interesting!  I had never thought of that before.  So you're suggesting replacing the cooldown time with this charge effect, right?  Sounds like a good idea.

It will also should remove this cold down trick.

Technically we've already removed that exploit in both the Mac and Windows apps with patches, but I appreciate what you're saying smile

w11_ba - Primary fairing mode - increase speed of the projectile (3 times) - so it will be harder to avoid.

I agree, this weapon quickly loses its menace once you realize you are being shot at with a slow-moving taffy beam that can be dodged by walking to the side.  And now with the dodging firespread in place, even the AI has a fairly easy time dodging this weapon.  I wish we could slow down the turning speed of the weapon so you can't wiggle it back and forth while firing, but I believe turning speed is a character-based setting, not a weapon-based one.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#8 13/3/13 13:10

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

w2_sap - No.It will not turn into another shoot gun. Its not so complicated technically , but it will change how AI for example will be using it. The idea is:
-to do semi automatic shoot (6 bullets per burst), but spacing (a cold down time) set the same as it is shooting another bullet from the burst. This way you'll have impression that it fire constantly(if you hold fire button).
- Ai will start using it's combat time(set in ONWC) for short burst shoots.
- the high recoil will prevent it to shoot constantly for some classes (for example furies) - later this can be tweaked in the ONCC
- higher dmg will make it even more fearsome in close
- I even my consider some push like effect (between 0,125-0,25)- for more realistic hit target behavior(when all bullets hit the victim body it will get in dance like state)

w3_phr:
- from my observation of game mechanics , the more weapon is inaccurate , the higher possibility that it will hit someone in burst mode (3 projectiles fired in short time will cover more space and are harder to dodge than one - especially in blind charge).
- The short charge time(0,5s)- will allow that this weapon will be able to dodged it in close (to favor h2h in CQC rather than stand and shoot behavior)
- high dmg (90 if all 3 projectiles hit) is more than enough to make it scary.
-The next point is that we already have one sniper rifle in shape of the mercury bow but lack proper assault rifle, so another precise weapon is not needed in that case.

And maybe last idea more regarding overall weapons as the are now but:
-What if we make rifles and all 2-hands wielded weapons un-holster-able , and kept this function only for pistol like weapons. In my opinion this will greatly balance the difference between them.
-Another thing is that run with pistol should be faster than with rifle(but maybe this subject will be better for another discussion)

Last edited by ltemplar (13/3/13 13:17)

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#9 13/3/13 14:27

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

ltemplar wrote:

w2_sap - [...] The idea is:
-to do semi automatic shoot (6 bullets per burst), but spacing (a cold down time) set the same as it is shooting another bullet from the burst. This way you'll have impression that it fire constantly(if you hold fire button).

Hmm, seems like an odd idea, but by all means, give it a try or provide a demo for us to try.

w3_phr:
-The next point is that we already have one sniper rifle in shape of the mercury bow but lack proper assault rifle, so another precise weapon is not needed in that case.

Yes, but the M. Bow is hardly ever encountered in-game.  Players who rely on the plasma rifle for sniping will be pretty annoyed by this change.  And I'm not sure I understand the logic behind a weapon that fires a spread of three shots.  Granted, the SMG isn't very accurate, which is fitting for a bad guy's gun (who cares about collateral damage?), but even the Strikers need to be able to shoot only what they're pointing at once in a while.  Maybe a spread shot could be put on the secondary trigger?

-What if we make rifles and all 2-hands wielded weapons un-holster-able , and kept this function only for pistol like weapons. In my opinion this will greatly balance the difference between them.

I've been interested in trying this for a long time (there's probably posts of mine from 2008 suggesting this).  It adds both a little realism (where are those rifles going when holstered?!), and also makes the mechanics more interesting and varied.

-Another thing is that run with pistol should be faster than with rifle(but maybe this subject will be better for another discussion)

Hmm, I don't think that's possible in the engine.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#10 13/3/13 15:02

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

I don't have an opinion about this because it's subjective, personally i like weapons as they are, but i do have 2 little notes, try not to change anything in onccs .. And for the 2 handed gun, can't be holstered ... So the player will just have to use all ammo or just throw it for AI to pickup ? .. Example you shot 1 of the mercury bow .. It missed and the enemy is coming closer to attack you close range .. All you can do is throw it (and risk it being picked up) to fight ?, also what will happen if at certain save point players have their game saved with a plasma rifle or mbo in their inventory, holstered and then they become non holster(able) ... they'll disappear.


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#11 13/3/13 15:44

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Samer wrote:

And for the 2 handed gun, can't be holstered ... So the player will just have to use all ammo or just throw it for AI to pickup?

Yeah, isn't that cool? smile  I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.  What would you do with it in real life in that situation?

also what will happen if at certain save point players have their game saved with a plasma rifle or mbo in their inventory, holstered and then they become non holster(able) ... they'll disappear.

How do you know?  It seems to me that this would probably work fine.  Drawing the weapon should still work, just not holstering it again.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#12 13/3/13 16:56

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Mostly all proposed things here were tested by me for some degree.So it's not an empty talk about what will work and what will not.
Also there is no problem in increasing run speed because every character have separate run with pistol and rifle animations.But as I seed before this is topic for another discussion(where we should also discus escape mechanics and doge moves in general).

What interest me the most is the opinion about particular concept.
For example:

w3_phr . Yes I agree that precise weapon is needed..but In my opinion it should be more close to today's assault rifles used by police force rather than super precise shoot gun. Also don't think that it's fire spreed will be compeered to the smg . No it will be toned down..but will be noticeable enough, that shooting unexpected AI from a far will be less possible(and sniping will be reserved for mercury bow only).

w2_sap . There is no possible other way to tone down this weapon in close(except dmg - that will make it useless). Also higher recoil will prevent continuous fire(even if this weapon allow such).


What regarding 2 handed weapons holster thing - this will be more realistic, and ad last prevent proper h2h when you hold them(or force to use thous exclusive for rifle h2h moves). Also it will remove this odd question "where in the hell she keep them"

Last edited by ltemplar (13/3/13 17:37)

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#13 13/3/13 17:04

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

w3_phr . Yes I agree that precise weapon is needed..but In my opinion it should be more close to today's assault rifles used by police force rather than super precise shoot gun. Also don't think that it's fire spreed will be compeered to the smg . No it will be toned down..but will be from the afar will be noticeable enough, that shooting unexpected AI from a far will be less possible(and sniping will be reserved for mercury bow only).

Well, I won't keep objecting to it, but I do predict that you'll get complaints if you lower the accuracy.

w2_sap . There is no possible other way to tone down this weapon in close(except dmg - that will make it useless).

I think the larger question is, "Why should it be toned down?"


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#14 13/3/13 17:27

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Iritscen wrote:

I think the larger question is, "Why should it be toned down?"

Because it's close to impossible to avoid it's fire in CQC, and there is no time to fill this gap ruining from afar, to capture him/it of guard, before he/it finish reloading it.
It's one of thous balancing issue, that every machine gun like weapon done so far, have problems which(not only smg). Not to mention that semi automatic is more realistic than full auto(for both factors like: more precise fire , and ammo conservation).

Last edited by ltemplar (13/3/13 17:29)

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#15 13/3/13 21:05

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Iritscen wrote:

Yeah, isn't that cool? smile  I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game.  What would you do with it in real life in that situation?

not really tongue imo, unless rifles power and ammo capacity is also increased a lot and they don't fade quickly.. then i see no reason why anyone would want to use a rifle anymore ...  many games like tomb raider and dmc with those huge weapons disappear when they're holstered .. so if it's only for realism i'd rather have a particle added to the back of the characters as if they carried the weapon on their back. but again it's subjective ... but that's what i think.


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#16 13/3/13 21:59

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

ltemplar wrote:

Because it's close to impossible to avoid it's fire in CQC, and there is no time to fill this gap ruining from afar, to capture him/it of guard, before he/it finish reloading it.

Well, the way I think about it is that the SMG says, "Keep away".  AIs never have (to my knowledge) unlimited ammo, so it's just a matter of staying out of range until they run out of ammo.  I'm honestly a little surprised that you want to nerf this weapon since I thought you had complained recently that weapons were underpowered (maybe I misunderstood you).  But the hope that Gumby and I had for this mod was that guns would become more menacing, not less so.


Samer wrote:

imo, unless rifles power and ammo capacity is also increased a lot and they don't fade quickly.. then i see no reason why anyone would want to use a rifle anymore ...  many games like tomb raider and dmc with those huge weapons disappear when they're holstered .. so if it's only for realism i'd rather have a particle added to the back of the characters as if they carried the weapon on their back. but again it's subjective ... but that's what i think.

Yes, we have also played with the idea of affixing the weapon to the character's back to holster it, but even if that were possible engine-wise, that doesn't always make sense visually (how would they fit on ninjas' backs?; Konoko's TCTF armor?; what happens when someone does a backward roll?).  The most realistic way to show rifles being "holstered" would be if the characters could wear shoulder or back slings, but obviously this just gets more and more technically complex to implement.

Re: fading time, the Daodan can set that to be higher than the current default (I'm a little unclear on this, but I think it's supposed to be 80 seconds both with and without the Daodan DLL, but the DLL allows us to raise the limit).  I agree that rifles should definitely not disappear after only a minute and 20 seconds, so maybe we can change that for the DLL that will be released with the AE.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#17 14/3/13 3:14

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Iritscen wrote:

Well, the way I think about it is that the SMG says, "Keep away".  AIs never have (to my knowledge) unlimited ammo, so it's just a matter of staying out of range until they run out of ammo.  I'm honestly a little surprised that you want to nerf this weapon since I thought you had complained recently that weapons were underpowered (maybe I misunderstood you).  But the hope that Gumby and I had for this mod was that guns would become more menacing, not less so.

I also proposed to increase it's bullets damage factor from 2-5 to 10 dmg points, that it will be actually able to kill you by using only one clip( full dmg will be 300 dmg points instead of 60-150). But to achieve this I need to add some countermeasure to prevent another imba ,that for sure will be produced in this process.

Re: fading time, the Daodan can set that to be higher than the current default (I'm a little unclear on this, but I think it's supposed to be 80 seconds both with and without the Daodan DLL, but the DLL allows us to raise the limit).  I agree that rifles should definitely not disappear after only a minute and 20 seconds, so maybe we can change that for the DLL that will be released with the AE.

If I remember correctly something like that can be set in bsl script ,or in the level logic.

Last edited by ltemplar (14/3/13 3:15)

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#18 14/3/13 9:25

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

ltemplar wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

Well, the way I think about it is that the SMG says, "Keep away".  AIs never have (to my knowledge) unlimited ammo, so it's just a matter of staying out of range until they run out of ammo.  I'm honestly a little surprised that you want to nerf this weapon since I thought you had complained recently that weapons were underpowered (maybe I misunderstood you).  But the hope that Gumby and I had for this mod was that guns would become more menacing, not less so.

I also proposed to increase it's bullets damage factor from 2-5 to 10 dmg points, that it will be actually able to kill you by using only one clip( full dmg will be 300 dmg points instead of 60-150). But to achieve this I need to add some countermeasure to prevent another imba ,that for sure will be produced in this process.

Ah, okay, sorry.  Well, let's see how that works!

Re: fading time, the Daodan can set that to be higher than the current default (I'm a little unclear on this, but I think it's supposed to be 80 seconds both with and without the Daodan DLL, but the DLL allows us to raise the limit).  I agree that rifles should definitely not disappear after only a minute and 20 seconds, so maybe we can change that for the DLL that will be released with the AE.

If I remember correctly something like that can be set in bsl script ,or in the level logic.

Well, yes, the DLL adds wp_fadetime as a command for setting the fade time (technically, the function already existed but didn't do anything).  But it seems preferable to make the change in the DLL than in all the level scripts.  In order to make wp_fadetime work, the DLL already hooks the game's fade time variable, so all we have to do is change the number in the code to something greater than the default 4800 ticks.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#19 16/3/13 10:35

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

just a note ... you can set Nofade flag in the ONWC of each weapon .. if for example you want to make rifles not fade while pistols do ...
also since this is an optional pack it might be best not to change the DLL for it .. however the new dll does need adjusting the fade time for all weapons to the vanilla original value as it's too low as script10k reported.


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#20 16/3/13 11:34

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Oh, I didn't even know about the NoFade flag, that's interesting.  Of course, the fading is a good way to avoid a crash happening in an unusual circumstance like tons of guns being spawned (for instance, if someone is playing OTA, does each respawned AI get a new gun, and would this gradually increase the number of extant guns in the level to infinity over time?).

Script's report of weapons fading too fast was not possible for Alloc and I to recreate, so we are trying to work with him to figure out what he observed.  In all our tests, the fade time is 80 seconds or 4800 ticks with the Daodan installed, and I believe that's Oni's default as well.  I always thought that 80 seconds was plenty of time, but I tend not to use weapons much.  It wasn't until I watched a Let's Play where the player kept running back to "touch" dropped weapons so they wouldn't fade that I realized it could be a problem for weapon-oriented players.  So I'm open to suggestions about a new fade time for weapons with the DLL, totally apart from whatever we do with this mod.  Maybe three minutes?  Five?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#21 16/3/13 14:11

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

i had same problem as script10k .. the weapons would fade too quickly after they're dropped ..
not sure about what the value was though, but it was very noticeable for me ... compared to the 2010 dll and the vanilla dll
3 mins would be good i guess smile
btw barabas's gun uses the nofade flag in the onwc

Last edited by Samer (16/3/13 14:12)


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#22 16/3/13 14:35

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Hmm, okay... look for an email from me about the weapons fading, I'd like you to just try a short test.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#23 17/3/13 17:35

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: Better Weapons (11000) - Do you want to finish it?

Irtscene wrote:

So I'm open to suggestions about a new fade time for weapons with the DLL, totally apart from whatever we do with this mod.  Maybe three minutes?  Five?

In ODF_TC i set this timer for something like 15 minutes, and I was able to switch them during the one encounter(from plasm rifle to mercury bow for example) without any problems.

Or maybe try different approach and set higher number in the engine allowed weapons on the screen from default 60 to lets say 500? I think this will prevent script/engine overload, and also gave us enough freedom.
The same goes for chars and corpses.

What regard package.. I'm testing the changes now..and they look promising. So expect demo quite soon.

Last edited by ltemplar (17/3/13 17:36)

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