To Oni Fans you should do better by Samer + ltemplar/dirk discussion

Samer · 02/12/13 21:02

From a modder's prespective I want to say to the fans ... You should do better ! ....

It's really astonishing to me sometimes the lack of response and feedback from users ...
Example I've posted on the facebook group news about the new AE and some of the new features the AE installer will have (things that I felt fans would appreciate) out of 20 views, we only got 1 comment by Andrew/Mukade and 2 likes.
Same applies to when new mods are released ... I felt uroboros's hq ninjas deserved more feedback ..
Or when Iritscen asked users to help test the new daodon only few participated ...

Modders are putting in their time and effort to make this game better for you the least you can do is show some appreciation ...

i know modders here are awesome and aren't modding to get cheered for and are too polite/coy to say something (unfortunately I'm not) but i know for a fact lack of feedback and response from users does make them less enthusiastic about the game and modding.

For the continuity of this community ... i address the fans, i.e those who download mods but never say anything, those who lurk the forum those who appear online as guests. Say ''thanks'' to the modders, or ''we appreciate it'' or ''yes we're excited for this release'' every now and then .. Trust me it goes a long way.

And I admit I'm guilty of doing same thing on other forums, where i download some mods (example sims2, marvel games etc) and don't say anything out of sheer laziness to comment ... But come on, most people spend so much time posting chain letters, trolling, liking and sharing meaningless posts and memes ... I think you can spare a comment towards Oni's direction. We're all busy, I don't think any of us sit and stare at the ceiling all day, and yes we have other stuff on our mind or we froget oni temporarly for other games or hobbies (I've played about 7 new video games the past few months, but still I'm loyal to Oni and spare some time for it) so none of these are valid excuses.

So if you consider yourselves loyal fans of the game, do better by it and by those who work their buts off to make the game better and keep it going for you ... You owe it that.

Last edited by Samer (02/18/13 23:02)

Lithium · 02/12/13 21:02

Guess a lot of us have lack of interest lately, I myself haven't been able to play much lately as my computer has been horrible.

Samer · 02/12/13 22:02

Yeah I don't mean you Lithium .. You and knox and few others have always managed to give some feedback (which I appreciate) but some of those who like look at the topic/ the picture / the discussion / the news... and just don't say anything ... (it often doesn't require playing it ... to be able to comment on it)

Last edited by Samer (02/12/13 22:02)

TheCreature · 02/13/13 02:02

(is felled by guilt) But I work so hard at being a good lurker! To comment on everything would get my lurker status revoked!

In all honesty, I AM a lurker. I'm on several forums and modding communities, and lurk just about every one. Hard habit to break. I've been easing into being more active across the interweb, and have only just been coming back around to the Central.

Samer · 02/13/13 07:02

You weren't always a lurker I clearly remember much of your comments, and contributions to modding (hayate sounds ..)

Jon God · 02/13/13 20:02

I lurk, because the current Oni tools are extremely user unfriendly. Also, I don't have many skills I could use to lend you guys.

kyletm57 · 02/13/13 20:02

I'm evidently a lurker. I can't mod or anything like that (the only useful skill I have is playing guitar, but I have no way to record music), and I only check the forums once in a while to see if any new content I'm interested in pops up. I truly do appreciate the work a lot of you guys do though, for years I thought I was the only person who even acknowledged this game existed.

Valkyrur · 02/13/13 23:02

I devote too much of my time writing to comment on anything really, hell, I barely play games anymore. I'm either stocking shelves during the night or writing when I'm off.

So yeah, sorry for lurking.

TOCS · 02/14/13 07:02

When or if we start exporting the materials to a different engine, I'll definitely be on board again. It gets really tedious working with the limited assets available.

If it somehow would be possible to port the game to Source or similar, it might become interesting for me again.

paradox-01 · 02/14/13 08:02

"From a modder's perspective I want to say to the fans ... You should do better"

Usually people become modders because *they want to modify* something and not because they want to fullfil someone else wish. And ... for example the latest ninja retexturing: there wasn't a poll 'what do you want'. You just popped up with that mod. So you should also be prepared for people/Oni fans who are not interested.
'I don't care. / I never asked for this. / Nice but I won't play with it cuz it's still a common ninja with all his old moves, behaviors and scenarios. / This doesn't increase the replay value (eyecandyness is not gameplay).' Yada yada. And in those "negative" cases people are less likly to post their opinion unless there's a crucial problem or something of very big dislike.

I'm myself in a I-don't-care phase. I played parts of the game imagined thousands of times, and then a retexed char simply doesn't motivates me to play it. I'm just silently thinking "hm 'k" but not going to download.

Samer · 02/14/13 09:02

Dear paradox :
1. I consider you a modder, more than a fan, so imo you're among those people who deserve thanks and feedback more than those who should give it.
2. As I said modders here are awesome and aren't doing it to be cheered on, however when users never say anything in return it does affect their enthusiasm to mod ... We're\They're only human.
3. I gave uroboros's mod as an example, I didn't pop up with anything, it's not my mod in the first place ! I delibetry chose another modder's mod so no one interprets it as i'm asking for cheers for myself, so please don't misinterpret. I could have said same thing about any other modder's effort : i feel Edt's china mod deserved more feedback, i feel VR's muro's HD textures deserve more feedback, Iritscen's HD griffin, your animation tutorials etc, uroboros's mod happened to be the most recent one .. i'm personally by now used to lack of feedback on the forum and i do get more feedback on the facebook group ..other modders don't ..
3. I specified those who download but never say anything .. Again stress on never .. Those who download and care and enjoy but just don't say anything ... Then yes these people can do more ... You don't fall in this category at all ...
There are certain mods that don't interest me like weapons or obans ( i didn't know what that was) and then yes I also don't say anything ...
But if i go ahead and download a mod and play it and like it, or i think a mod really looks well done - even if i don't have time or am in the mood to actually play it, then yes i feel i should say thanks, good job !
4. I ask Iritscen, Alloc, Edt, Script etc .. There's no doubt you mod because of your love of the game not because you want anything in return, but in all honesty don't you feel more encouraged to mod when you get more feedback ? or thanks from users ?
If not then sorry if it seemed i spoke incorrectly on your behalf.
Now you're working on the new AE ... If no one showed any interest in a new AE would you have been motivated to make it ? I don't think they're making it for themselves or solely out of sheer love to make it ... mainly they're addressing it to the users/fans first to make the AE better for them (and modders second)... and won't a part of you (small as it may be) be disappointed if once the new AE is released no one said anything or gave any feedback ?
Or anotther example few new modders like michele whose mods really did have potential, not the most incredible thing we've seen but surely as good as some old mods that got much more feedback a few years ago, he first posted them on the facebook group, i told him to make an account here, and post on the forum so he'll get more feedback from users and advice from other modders .. No one even acknowledged the guy, i doubt he's gonna be motivated to post and participate on the forum again .. And a time where we're losing modders i think we can use any new modders we get.
Anyway i feel you took this in a completely different direction than intended I wasn't writing this because i got upset i'm not getting feedback, i wrote this because modders (other modders, I haven't made any new mod in months now,) are doing a very good job and aren't getting the appreciation they deserve (deserve not ask for)
and addressed to the fans i.e those who never mod, those who do care and download and play and think it's good but don't say anything out of ... laziness\ taking it for granted.
Look at the forum a few years ago how much more active it was, now that there's new content more than ever it should be more active instead of less.
So yes fans\users should participitate more for the continuity of this community.

Last edited by Samer (02/14/13 10:02)

Iritscen · 02/14/13 11:02

I thought you were pretty clear in your original post, Samer. I think the problem is that we're not seeing enough new stuff come out, so when an occasional mod appears, especially one that is small-scale like a ninja re-texture (not that that still doesn't require hours of work), the people browsing the forum just aren't engaged enough to try it.

To be honest, I don't think anyone is to blame. You're right that at one time, Michele's mod would have gotten more responses. But as 'dox said, we've all played the game 100 times by now, so unless something big comes out, I don't think we're going to see the situation reverse itself. I have some ideas in that regard, but I don't feel comfortable discussing them publicly right now, although I wouldn't mind discussing them with you by email.

You asked why I'm working on the AE again, and the answer is simple: because an update is needed and I've been getting reminded of this by fans It's not out of a personal passion at this point, as I was involved in another Oni project which I put on hold to get a new AE out. Frankly, I've been having trouble either motivating myself, or finding the time, to get the AE work done. Part of the problem is that I've been a little busier outside the community lately, but that's temporary, and I still remain very much committed to working on Oni stuff.

ltemplar · 02/14/13 12:02

Or maybe is because any insight critique is taken as the attack on his/her project?

Honestly..I don't even know how I should comment the mods, because every time I do this other than "Wow.. what a superb mod it is" I get into defensive position to protect my right to post - Not to mention the last ninja retexture...thing. Giving you any hint result in demand for step by step guide - and my time is drastically limited now days.

Samer you must understand one thing:
Peoples don't like to post comments, fine it's their call . If you are doing this only to get popularity, or to shine, then it's your problem not theirs.You will never force thous who don't want to post ,do this. As the modder I'm rather used to this kind of behavior......

As for the retextutre topic. Do we really need another one? Honestly.. why not simply join forces in doing it .. then divide work..and stick to one topic , rather than producing 100+ unwanted posts from it....?If you make it community effort then it will turn in to more interesting pool of ideas/works- from where we can chose thous the most promising to up-grade Oni ones.

Last edited by ltemplar (02/14/13 12:02)

Samer · 02/14/13 13:02

I promised Iritscen I will try to be nicer to you ltemplar but boy do you make it hard
for the last time I didn't say this for comments on my damn mods, funny you picked and focused on the retextured ninja out of everything i said(Uroboros's mod not mine). i'm not asking for feedback on my own damn mods got that ? Especially not from you, take that anyway you want it.
This is how it started on facebook group .. I always post updates there ...
I posted this about new AE as you see no mention of my mods

no one responded or commented about the new AE, i got disappointed so I said fans need to do better by the modders aka in this case those who're working on the AE then I realzied this also applies to the forum so I came and started this thread here. And as you can see after my short burst of tough love .. More comments were given and few even came to the forum, so yeah i'm ok with seeming a bit pushy if it gets users to participate more.

''shine'' and ''get popularity'' this is f***g hillarious !! Whatever ltemplar i hate people who try to twist and turn things, you want to say i said all this, because i want some people to come say oh boy great wow samer is amazing and then i'll feel i'm great ! Do u really think that's how i build my self esteem ?
Dear i'm 23 year old teacher, and a pharmacist if you think i need some comments on a web page for my self esteem you're sadly mistaken

all the issue is i felt those who work on the game deserve more appreciation to stay motivated and work, such as Alloc, Edt, and Iritscen and others. (they don't ask for it cz as i said they're awesome)

Yes i do get happy when people like my mods and yes i do feel a bit disappointed if no one tries them .. But this was not what this is about.

Now to your comment regarding ''personal attack'' ... You always comment to criticize and pick on any little things no matter how noticeable they are or aren't .. You have those high unacheivable standards that you carried from whatever forum you were on and you're trying to apply them here. They don't and will not apply, deal with it

look back at the hq ninja modified thread ... Right before your comment TheCreature gave his critique, he said the visor needs to be a different color and the chest piece is too white.
I took that with open arms he was very clear about his criticism.
You however : it needs more shadows which parts need more shadows ? And i agreed with you it can use a bit of brightness decrease .. Have you opened each texture file and compared it side by side to the original vanilla ones ? I have, and all the shadows are there, uroboros's original had some missing on the armor, i added them myself so when you simply say shadows are missing when i know they're not i have to ask you to clarify.
i asked nicely (as nice as i can be) for you to clarify
your answer was ''geez'' i don't have time to go step by step bla bla
as if i'm asking you to come tutor me with your infinite knowledge.
I have zero tolerance for arrogance in real life and here, if you're arrogant with me you'll get my ugly side, be nice and i'm nice back.
We get it you're a great modder ... from the only 1 mod we've seen from you the whole time you've been here ... Yet you never fail to criticize others or fill posts and posts with technical blabber that no one gets.

Geez i don't have time to tell you step by step what to do.
Vs
sorry samer i don't have time to clarify right now i will when i have time.

It's the way you say it that makes the difference, learn some modesty and then address me, if you can't, then simply avoid me cz i won't take it. Easy as that.

No you won't turn this into i can't take criticisim, it's you who don't know how to give criticism you need to work on that not me. Why didn't you comment on uroboros's thread and give him feedback when he fisrt published it ? (you were around i saw you online several times) My modification was about a week later. And another thing the stuff i saw can be improved in uroboros's mod, i went and improved them myself, if you feel it can be improved further go and improve it yourself with ur awesome modding skills.

Whether i ask users to comment or not is my damn business, not yours, i have been around longer and know the people who play it longer than you, who drop by every now and then ... Yes i can't force them to comment if they don't want to.. Actually in few hours it becomes least of my concerns if they comment or not as i get swamped with real life shit, but i feel responsible to tell and remind them, those modders deserve appreciation: yes comments are motivating so do give them if you can, don't hesitate to give feedback (don't expect that when you do we'll just take whatever you say no matter how rudely you say it and just apply it blindly, this isn't a business and the customer isn't always right, instead discuss and convince, don't demand) if you go and download a mod and enjoy it, do spare some time to say thanks to the modder whoever that modder might be and don't take it for granted.
Not asking for the impossible just common curtosy.

And why not make it a community effort ? ... Who's here exactly ? Where's the community ? That's what i'm giving tough love about .. Participate more or the community is going to fade.. If everyone is ok with that or sees it as if i'm offending or annoying them somehow then ok so be it, i'll shut up and do something else with the spare time i give to Oni .

Last edited by Samer (02/14/13 17:02)

ltemplar · 02/14/13 14:02

Try moddb then. We did that with NEP ,..otherwise on forums we get 1-2 comments in the month at the best.

Last edited by ltemplar (02/14/13 14:02)

Iritscen · 02/14/13 14:02

I am planning to update our ModDB page when the AE is ready.

Samer · 02/14/13 14:02

My previous post is edited in response to dear ltemplar.
If you have a personal response to me send it by email. I won't have you shit on every thread i start again.

Last edited by Samer (02/14/13 14:02)

ltemplar · 02/14/13 15:02

......Samer what's your problem?.......

1)Why , why, YOU always get everything so , So............ personal.
2)Yes "step by step" - As the teacher you should understand more than others that: guiding somebody in correct way is not less important than to give him only a hint and force him to think - nobody here is a child , and you aren't a green noob either, so I'm not obligated to gave you such guides every time.
3)Yes community effort - Do we really need for every, I mean every thing a separate topic?
4)Now thats interesting. Where you was able to SEE me here in the last two weeks....as a ghost???
5)........Do you really think that I gave a s*** on...how many mods You've made? It's that factor in your eyes, that's make you a better modder.....than others?
6)And don't put words into my mouth...please.

Last edited by ltemplar (02/14/13 16:02)

TOCS · 02/14/13 15:02

Wow, this quickly escalated into a war of text. Maybe Samer and Itemplar should take these battles somewhere else? There's clearly some sort of conflict going on between these two. I must admit though, it looks like you type faster than your brain can comprehend, Itemplar. It gets even more confusing, when it arguably looks like, that a big chunk of your text is translated directly by a program, i.e. being completely incomprehensible at times. I had a little fun reading some of the previous discussions between you two; sometimes I didn't even get exactly what the arguments were all about. Oh well...

Last edited by TOCS (02/14/13 18:02)

Samer · 02/14/13 16:02

do you know which antibiotic can be used for both bacteria and protozoa ? here's a hint it can also be used for tuberculosis ... giving "hints" on something when it isn't clear to someone in the first place does little help.
I told you before we aren't the experienced modders that you are ... so when we make something and publish it, it is the BEST that we can do at that time (or all what we could do before we ran out of time or interest).. saying hey it should be better go google how it should be is meaningless ...
and I didn't ask to be taught by you.
and as teacher i know i won't ask 6th graders to solve a university level question no matter how much hints I give them.

you don't base your criticisms on anything substantial and i don't have time or the will to go "research" them, nor the ability to read your mind and know what you want, nor do i enjoy thinking and solving "the mystery of what ltemplar is talking about", I have other things to do you know .. either clarify or don't say anything at all ... funny that you can go and write those humungous posts repeating and elaborating on irrelevant things, but when someone asks you to clarify your criticism you're out of time.

why do i take it personally .. clarify to me why the "geez" part of your comment was necessary : as in geez ! I need to explain this step by step you're all so stupid I'm the alpha modder ... you could have easily put your comment in a much nicer way and avoided the whole thing.
or what was the intention of " Samer ... If you are doing this only to get popularity, or to shine, then it's your problem not theirs." (though i addressed same point in my reply to paradox ... i tend to take things personally when i'm addressed by name ) that's to imply that I only wrote this as a way to shine and get more feedback for my own mods and portray me as an attention seeking selfish cry baby, that passive aggressive sh** doesn't work with me, be direct, that's what you wanted to imply, and no I'm not gonna allow it.

.Do you really think that I gave a s*** on...how many mods You've made? It's that factor in your eyes, that's make you a better modder.....than others?

no one said that and do you think i give a sh** if you care or notice how many mods I've made ?

Yes community effort - Do we really need for every, I mean every thing a separate topic?

it's called being organized and again i ask you where is the community ? where are those modders that are willing to make a community effort for retexturing some ninjas..
actually you know what, i didn't understand what you said and I don't want to ...how will posting it all on one thread help in anyway? if still a single person is doing it ... it's open for anyone i got uroboros's mod and improved it (imo), if you want to do the same then what's stopping you ?? participate in the community instead of giving hints and mysteries .. you know you're not the riddler right ? having it being posted on several threads or one will neither prevent nor encourage anyone from modifying it. others who comment are not all modders ... you are, instead of criticizing ... improve it

rather than producing 100+ unwanted posts from it.

...well that's ironic coming from you.

and which part of this

If you have a personal response to me send it by email. I won't have you shit on every thread i start again.

didn't you get ?

@ TOCS believe me I don't enjoy this back and forth either .. I cringe whenever I see a new post by him on one of my threads cz I know it will ruin yet another thread cz I'll have to reply to him.

Last edited by Samer (02/14/13 17:02)

ltemplar · 02/14/13 16:02

"If you have a personal response to me send it by email. I won't have you shit on every thread i start again."- well it was after I've finished my post. Sorry...

I'll send this response by e-mail then...

kyletm57 · 02/14/13 20:02

Erm..........Well to get back on topic Samer, I think another major reason people often don't post thanks or feedback is because they only know forum members as a picture over the internet. Often times people forget that who they are talking to over the web is a real person who has feelings and emotions. I myself am guilty of this on occasion; I'll insult someone or say something idiotic without considering that what I am saying will have an affect on the person I'm addressing. I'm not sure if I've ever done this here, but I am genuinely sorry if I have ever hurt or offended anyone on this forum, either with an inappropriate comment or lack of comment. Lol, sorry to get all deep on you guys, but that's just my opinion.

paradox-01 · 02/15/13 06:02

I was trying make two points.

1) About modder's motivation: I didn't wrote this because of being offended or in need to defend myself, no, it would be just better if you (pl.) work for your own goal; then you don't get hurt. If somebody else likes the mod then it's just a nice bonus.
I shouldn't have written about this one. We all just have different personalities and it's a bit like putting the finger into the wound. So put this one into the bin.

When I wrote about the 'popped up' ninja retexturing. Samer, "You" didn't refer to you alone but to you both (plural), the makers of the mod, actually modders in general... I should have been more careful here.

2) The decreasing posts with positive feedback are maybe not the result of laziness but because of decreasing interest in Oni. (Less interested people, ergo less posts, and now we might have reached a very low level of interest! -- A download counter doesn't really tell us how many liked what they got.)

Samer, as you said, their are various Views at facebook but much less Likes.
Plus, "Look at the forum, a few years ago how much more active it was".
That can be interpreted as proof for the loss of interest.

New content once in a while might not satisfy the people anymore, and Oni's engine development has always been pretty slow.
There are other, newer games with higher update rates in quantity and quality, so Oni is simply a dinosaur.

If fan or not, with time things can change, e.g. I called some music bands my favorites but not anymore.

Last edited by paradox-01 (02/15/13 07:02)

Dirk Gently · 02/15/13 11:02

I've been trying to find more time to work on newer tools for modding oni. Originally I was hoping to find some people to collaborate with this on and build an engine to modify different parts of the game. The source is up on my github, it is being written in C++ and can be compiled on any platform. So far I haven't found anyone else to help work on this with me. At the same time I am busy finishing up my degree, so my visits and play-time are sparse these days.

AdamBast · 02/16/13 11:02

look, don't expect so much enthusiasm for a game ~12 years old
i still love the game, don't get me wrong. i just feel like almost everything has been said about it.
and facebook... it's an antisocial network, everyone just lurks there except for the stupid memes and "share this 1million times" and "win an iphone, just share this" crap

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