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#51 14/1/13 16:55

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

Now we are discussing about so called "casual" players. I was referring to more "hardcore" titles. But ok maybe it's true..but not everything must be simplified for god sake.
Or simplified in parts where this simplification is not needed(or look stupid) and kill immersion.

off topic
BTW. I will answer you this question about why "I think ONI have bad transition between H2h and shooting"(This is also dedicated to loser). It's simple ..Why we can't use weapon in the h2h? Why we can't block with it? Why we can simply smash this weapon on the had of the enemy when we disarm him (this can be done however-by mod- but we are not discussing here about mods- but about original game). Not to mention things like different h2h style when"with weapon" - thats why i think oni have that bad transition, because you are forced to holster it to fight efficient in h2h. I will not even mention this unrealistic 1 weapon thing we have now(if I can holster it and have hands free why I can't grab another weapon?).
end of off topic

Last edited by ltemplar (14/1/13 16:56)

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#52 14/1/13 17:00

Valkyrur
Member
From: Russia
Registered: 4/12/11

Re: All time favorite games ..

Simplification is good when it irons out extremely clunky portions of a game, think, the transition from Daggerfall (Clunky UI and gameplay) to Morrowind (Smooth, fluid UI and gameplay).

What's bad is when it turns highly complex games like Battlefield or Rainbow 6 into corridor shoots to mimic COD in a ham-handed attempt to gain sales (Which really just alienates the existing fanbase instead)


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#53 14/1/13 18:00

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

That's what I'm talking about.
The "simplification" - in good way- is when its change things illogically hard (for example interface, controls, etc) to simple one. Not things like puzzles, game mechanics, immersion etc - the bad way.

That's why I'm not against even one button played games, till this one button thing gave me enough options to do what I want to do, and is not reduced to simple button mashing (see how old school brawlers(street of rage, return of double dragon etc) look like - few buttons - simple moves , but how many possibilities.))
The next thing is setting(what story the game have).
For games like street of rage - where you are fighting with street gangs ..things like ranged weapons..are not so important. But for setting like ONI have, ..when you are fighting with paramilitary organization..it's the logic thing to focus more on the shooting (because the ranged weapon becomes the logic choice- everybody is armed) than on brawl.
And the last thing is immersion.
Things that work for one game will not work for another(the hero syndrome in Creed series).

Last edited by ltemplar (14/1/13 18:10)

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#54 14/1/13 18:42

demos_kratos
Member
From: Russia, Volzhskiy
Registered: 13/8/08

Re: All time favorite games ..

Portal 2
Half-life
DMC franchise
Oni
StarCraft 2
Max Payne
Borderlands 2
Star Wars: Jedi Knight - Jedi Outcast/Academy
Tekken series
Guilty Gear series
Blazblue
World of Tanks (despite all the crap it consists of)
Sid Meyer's Civilization V

I would like to ask you lot about the most hardcore gaming experience you've ever had.
Mine was clearing DMC4's Hell And Hell mode and then trying to beat a korean in StarCraft 2. Easily deduced, the latter was futile. I'm a bit of a easy going gamer you might say.


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#55 14/1/13 19:42

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: All time favorite games ..

Iritscen wrote:

I think that some of the resentment of COD just comes from the fact that the game is everywhere (BLOPSII was #1 in U.S. sales last year and MW3 was #8).  People automatically become resentful of it because it's so popular.

The other belief that some seem to have is that the money spent making more of the same game could have gone to something much more interesting.  I think we all get frustrated thinking about cool games like Oni that seem to be in completely neglected subgenres.  But that's just not how the market works; if there were no dudebro games to play, then dudebros wouldn't be spending money on games.  So the millions of dollars "wasted" on making those games only entered the industry because those games existed in the first place.  The budgets couldn't have reasonably gone to anything else unless some executives felt like throwing money away.

The real issue I have with it, is because it's popular, but not for that exact reason.

The reason is that because it's popular, lots of developers are forced by publishers, or inspired themselves, to 'put CoD into their own game' Be it elements, or style. Now Call of Duty is one of the most bland games I've played in my many years of gaming, and it's helping drag multiplayer focus, overpriced DLC, linear Michael Bay style single player campaigns and other things into every game.

Final Fantasy XIII and Resistance 2 come to mind as two games inspired by CoD that totally destroyed what made the originals great.

-JG


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#56 14/1/13 19:53

Valkyrur
Member
From: Russia
Registered: 4/12/11

Re: All time favorite games ..

Holy hell, how is Final Fantasy 13 COD inspired? It's not even a shooter! It's combat is nothing like any other modern game!

You know what putting COD elements into a non-COD game is? Valkyria Chronicles 2. The missions are all one big linear turn-based corridor shoot that has dumbed down gameplay from it's predecessor. And, Bioware/Hamburger Hepler style romance plots to top that off.


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#57 14/1/13 20:14

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: All time favorite games ..

I'm not very hardcore, but the most hardcore experience of mine was probably getting and doing everything in FFX.  I may or may not have permanently lost my mind trying to get the Caladbolg, and also unlocking Nemesis, but I did it anyway.


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#58 14/1/13 21:36

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

Mmm most hardcore gaming thing I've done.
@demos you cleared hell and hell sad ? I haven't cleared heaven or hell yet hmm i guess, clearing dmc 4 dante must die for me and finishing the bonus stages and collecting all the blue crystals. I should get back to this game before i get the new one.
And recently clearing all the challenges in batman arkham asylum and getting that 100 percent .. those combat challenges were frustrating.
Finding all secrets in all the tomb raider and prince of persia games i've played
There are a lot of games that i don't feel are simplified .. I enjoyed tomb raider's and prince of persia puzzles, i enjoyed planning batman asylum predetor challenges, i enjoyed dmc's boss fights .. There are also some simple games like bejeweled twist and 3d logic which are mentally challenging.

Besides many games come with adjustable options example turning off hints, automatic targeting, automatic ledge grap .. Several difficulties etc ..

If you can't find a game which challenges you anymore, maybe you're just super smart and awesome smile .. But i'll agree that over simplification is a mistake .. Example prince of persia first 3 games were awesome, then they went in a different direction with new character in ''prince of persia'' 2008 and the gameplay sucked cz they made pretty much everything automatic, and despite the dark story theme it felt like a kids platforming game ..automatic wall run and climb and restoring from death etc .. It lost its edge but i did enjoy the new combat. Then they went back to the main series and character with forgotten sands which had some really nice elements, but they simplified and dumbed down the combat a lot they ignored pop 2 and 3 combat mechanics and went back to what seemed to be buggy pre 1 combat mechanics .. Which again sucked. I'm hoping for a new pop game that would continue the 2008 story, have the look of forgotten sands, and have the combat and gameplay of pop 2.

and btw about ur opinion on oni's h2h and weapons in ''reply to someone's\loser's question'' (which i fail to find on this thread) .. Didn't you like write this on several other threads ? tongue

@Iritscen for someone new to the series which final fantasy game do you recommend ? (so i can understand the story and game play most)

Last edited by Samer (14/1/13 22:27)


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#59 14/1/13 22:36

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: All time favorite games ..

Samer wrote:

And recently clearing all the challenges in batman arkham asylum and getting that 100 percent

It's a good point that you make here -- even if games' critical paths or main storylines have become easier, there's often extra challenges available for those who are seeking them.  I'm not sure I mind having things that way, really.

and btw about ur opinion on oni's h2h and weapons in ''reply to loser's question'' (which i fail to find on this thread) .. Didn't you like write this on several other threads ? tongue

That was actually my question, not Loser's.  I can't say I agree with ltemplar's answer, though, so I didn't respond to his response, since I didn't feel like debating why Oni's combat makes more sense the way it is (who would block a punch with a gun?).

@Iritscen for someone new to the series which final fantasy game do you recommend ? (so i can understand the story and game play most)

None of the FF games share a world or cast of characters, for the most part.  The only exceptions are games that share the same number, like FFX and FFX-2.  FFX has probably the best story of the entire series, so if that interests you, definitely seek it out for the PS2.  Besides FFX, I enjoyed FFVII (PS1) the most, and it actually has the full nonlinearity that most players want in their RPGs.  A lot of players liked FFXII, if you'd rather not play something from the PS1 era.  I actually haven't played the FFXIII titles, because I sort of retired from the whole genre after playing XII.  The FF series as a whole, though, is always accessible in terms of gameplay, so really you can start anywhere.  However, I do prefer FFX's turn-based combat to the majority of FFs, which use real-time systems, since I can take all the time I want in planning my moves.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#60 15/1/13 2:27

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

Mmm i don't have a playstation .. I only play PC games sad so does what you said still apply ?


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#61 15/1/13 2:37

Valkyrur
Member
From: Russia
Registered: 4/12/11

Re: All time favorite games ..

Samer wrote:

Mmm i don't have a playstation .. I only play PC games sad so does what you said still apply ?

NOPE LOL. Unless of course you like FF7. And only FF7 since it's the only non-MMO FF to be released on PC.

Eh, only JRPG series that matters to me anymore is Valkyria Chronicles at this point since the rest of the genre has... Stagnated... To say the least. Now if only SEGA would get off their arses, stop wanking around, and realize the only way the series is going to be what it used to be (Well, for a single game) is if they bring it back to HD consoles and not puny little PSP/Vita. And stop mimicking Bioware romance plots. Anyone who agrees, then please visit here: https://www.facebook.com/GLFront

Last edited by Valkyrur (15/1/13 2:43)


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#62 15/1/13 3:05

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

Well that sucks tongue i hate that most games i like aren't for pc.


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#63 15/1/13 4:11

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

Actually the FFVII and FVIII are available on PC also(I played and finished them on pc).

The most hardcore experience?
Hmmm... it's hard question.
Probably finishing the "UFO terror from the deep" on superhuman difficulty.Or try to beat UFO enemy unknown on Amiga 500 (for thous that don't remember - this game was on 6 floppy disks and every saving , loading , enemy turn , etc was a disk change marathon ))

"Mine was clearing DMC4's Hell And Hell"- And I was thinking I'm the only one crazy enough to , actually do that.

The most up to date hardcore experience was to when I change "to much" stuff in ONI and make weapons to realistic (mine version of updated ONCC - changed that konoko have only 60 hp (in armor) to 40(in clothes)  , civilians up to 20 ...etc etc etc) . More or less..every shoot was counting deadly(the smg do 5 dmg and Campbell Eq up to 12 , plasma 40, etc) - add to this that everybody has weapon and you get the picture. And then try to pass this. So any mistake (not blocked move , not dodged shoot) was a almost deadly one.Ahh.. and one more thing. The "kick off effect- character is in dis-balance state" for bullets was also present..so if player was captured in constant SMG fire that was automatic game over. (The stealth and fast undetected kills/disarm/fights with one enemy was not a option but required factor for your survival)- And somehow I was enjoying this......

"If you can't find a game which challenges you anymore, maybe you're just super smart and awesome" - or maybe I require from game something more than manual skills? For example I finished entire batman predator changeless ... but was bored on combat ones.
Or maybe that fact that I grow up on "old school games" (arcade) - which only factor that mater was to "kill player"(so he will waste another coin) rather tan "allow him to pass"(no coin no cash for owner). The first computer games was also done in that spirit(atari, c64, amiga , pegasus, etc). The only difference was that you can have unlimited try not determined by that "cash" factor.

Last edited by ltemplar (15/1/13 4:32)

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#64 15/1/13 4:43

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

Trying to finish the combat challenges require more skills than you think, i first thought it was boring and all about button mashing, but once you try it you'll see there's more to it .. You have to use a wide variety of moves and avoid being hit to make a long combo to give you enough points to get the 3 bats / challenge. You'll have to come up with startegies on how to combine batclaw, throws, takedowns' batarang, stuns to maximize ur scroe.. Example whenone enemy is left instead of a take down, a throw followed by a ground pound yields more points.

I have to say you seem to focus too much on oni's weapons, where i feel to many of us melee is what makes oni so unique. Like the only weapons i've ever used in oni were mercury bow and vdg when i absolutely had to.

Last edited by Samer (15/1/13 4:46)


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#65 15/1/13 5:51

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

"I have to say you seem to focus too much on oni's weapons, where i feel to many of us melee is what makes oni so unique. Like the only weapons I've ever used in oni were mercury bow and vdg when i absolutely had to." - I told you.. For me immersion is more important than to fell awesome. If the ONI was in the street of rage universe..then yes..the weapons are not important at all. But because ONI is in the similar to GITS, anime, cyberpunk setting the weapons become automatically the "logic thing of choice".So they become more important than the beloved brawl. If the brawl is this thing that will be the most expanded..then we need to add supernatural(read unrealistic) combat moves(super fast dodges etc).Also the "super human" setting require "enough" enemies to fight with, to allow player to fill awesome. So if we don't want to have another superhuman syndrome, but  clever AI , etc, then we need to make this h2h combat close to realism (so fast/stealth skills, etc) to balance the over-powerful weapons.
Every ,story, movie, game , etc..must have recognizable factors/objects/settings/ that will determine it's genre(cyberpunk for example), otherwise you will get this nasty fill that something is not right there.
And that's why we all discuss about thous weapons, AI , etc, etc - because this are thous elements in which this game fails (especially in the story line- Konoko/Mai is Daodan for example).

Last edited by ltemplar (15/1/13 7:31)

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#66 15/1/13 6:12

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

it has nothing to do with feeling awesome .. one can argue yay i'm awesome i stand far from enemies and shoot them, She's a daodon symbiote she doesn't need weapons .. weapons break the immersion for me smile


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#67 15/1/13 7:02

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

Why you always think in terms of player only and not in terms characters(Also AI)?
It's simple.
The game story tels us:
Konoko is normal human on the beginning of the game(her daodan symbiont is in sleep phase)..The only clue that she is not "normal" we get about overpower effect.
So what human will use to deal with another human (or group) when he/she is in police in futuristic(cyberpunk like) setting? The answer is ranged weapon. logic? ..logic.
Then she realize that she is not normal(by her daodan evolution)But. if this also is "touching" the normal strikers and TCTF guys? No the are not daodans but human beings so the still use weapons.
And how normal human (except super human or super cyborg) can deal with a "monster" like Konoko? With better weapons, armors or vehicles that can overcome his natural imperfections.So he will have a chance to kill that "monster".
So again weapons becomes here a crucial factor. Unless we want to have super humans fight with superhuman ..then we need somehow balance this ..and from the beginning of humankind this problem is solved by using better weapons and to balance weapons armors.
So you can't denied only one aspect of the game , favoring another one only, because you don't like it. Until you want to create only the "arena" game instead of the whole story with "believable" settings..for it's genre. (I personally also love the h2h and like it more than shooting ,but this don't change the fact that something in oni is not right) . Another thing is that if somebody is superhuman - it require this ,that normal humans were waker than he is(so in close he can smash one of them without sweat). So to balance this imperfection thous normal humans use ..guess what?...Weapons/armors/vehicles/machines/robots (to keep him as far as possible)- or numbers(the best is combination of both) or in some cases "special skills"(ninjas).
And again it's have nothing to do with mine like or dislikes - it's how we are as humanity. The last thing that Oni is an anime game and anime require some kind of superhero syndrome..if we like this or not- especially in futuristic or cyberpunk setting.

Last edited by ltemplar (15/1/13 7:41)

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#68 15/1/13 7:20

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

ltemplar wrote:

Why you always think in terms of player only and not in terms characters(Also AI)?
It's simple.
The game story tels us:
Konoko is normal human on the beginning of the game(her daodan symbiont is in sleep phase)..The only clue that she is not "normal" we get about overpower effect.
So what human will use to deal with another human (or group) when he/she is in police in futuristic(cyberpunk like) setting? The answer is ranged weapon. logic? ..logic.
Then she realize that she is not normal(by her daodan evolution)But. if this also is "touching" the normal strikers and TCTF guys? No the are not daodans but human beings so the still use weapons.
And how normal human (except super human or super cyborg) can deal with a "monster" like Konoko? With better weapons, armors or vehicles that can overcome his natural imperfections.So he will have a chance to kill that "monster".
So again weapons becomes here a crucial factor. Unless we want to have super humans fight with superhuman ..then we need somehow balance this ..and from the beginning of humankind this problem is solved by using better weapons and to balance weapons armors.
So you can't denied only one aspect of the game , favoring another one only, because you don't like it. Until you want to create only the "arena" game instead of the whole story with "believable" settings..for it's genre. (I personally also love the h2h and like it more than shooting ,but this don't change the fact that something in oni is not right) . Another thing is that if somebody is superhuman - it require this ,that normal humans were waker than he is(so in close he can smash one of them without sweat). So to balance this imperfection thous normal humans use ..guess what?...Weapons/armors/vehicles/machines/robots (to keep him as far as possible)- or numbers(the best is both) or in some cases "special skills"(ninjas).
And again it's have nothing to do with mine like or dislikes - it's how we are as humanity. The last thing that Oni is an anime game and anime require some kind of superhero syndrome..if we like this or not- especially in futuristic or cyberpunk setting.

Again, who are you to dictate how a game in interpreted and played for everyone else? The game was designed around the fact that weapon based combat might be safer, but it isn't going to be faster. This game plays very similarly to Mirror's Edge, in the sense that you can use weapons but they will slow you down and make close-range combat less effective. A lot of people that haven't had any close-range combat training will think having a gun will make you more secure in a fight. However this isn't the case if someone can close the gap between you and them. At that range a gun is effectively useless due to hand to hand combat disarming you. Most of the troopers you see in this game are similar to street cops. You don't see them getting lots of training or practice in the field.


Restricting combat to primary weapons is a CRIME against the amazing combat engine this game has.

Last edited by Dirk Gently (15/1/13 7:40)

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#69 15/1/13 7:32

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

Sorry I mean genre(I hate this auto correction button sometimes). - correcting now.

"How does this make any sense whatsoever" - Eh?. Could you be more precise here? What part of this text is not understandable for you.

Last edited by ltemplar (15/1/13 7:38)

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#70 15/1/13 7:40

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

Edited my reply.

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#71 15/1/13 7:56

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

Ok ..So why we all discuss about weapons...if they are done so good in this game?
I only gave ONI as the example because I was try to show that every aspect of the game must be on its place..not only one. In not questioning here the h2h combat in ONI or whatsoever you want to defend.
A brutal example but.. You can't create good book about pirates(in terms of story) ... if you don't add ships them, and arm them properly.

Last edited by ltemplar (15/1/13 8:20)

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#72 15/1/13 8:19

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

ltemplar wrote:

Ok ..So why we all discuss about weapons...if they are done so good in this game?
I only gave ONI as the example because I was try to show that every aspect of the game must be on its place..not only one. In not questioning here the h2h combat in ONI or whatsoever you want to defend.
A brutal example but.. You can't create good book about pirates(in terms of story) ... if you don't add ships them, and arm them properly.

I still don't follow what your point was. It seemed like you were trying to justify how the game was designed and how it needs to involve both types of combat due to genre or something.

As for the pirates, why not, that is just building on stereotypical assumptions.

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#73 15/1/13 8:41

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 23/8/12

Re: All time favorite games ..

Really..so remove ships from pirate game and still claim its a pirate game then see what will left and how many peoples will still cal it a game about pirates. Thous so coaled "stereotypical assumptions."  are this factor that build "believable" setting for game for book or whatever art so you can "fill" it.

To be crystal clear here.

I'm not arguing here about Multiplier game aspect or arena aspect of the ONI(where weapons can be taken out completely without any harm), but single player part, where this STORY and all things that are logically connected to it are presented. In short. The Story is good but badly done, and thats it. Thats why I'm still babling about this weapon balancing , daodan evolution,character look ,logical choice..etc ,etc, etc.

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#74 15/1/13 10:50

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

ltemplar wrote:

Really..so remove ships from pirate game and still claim its a pirate game then see what will left and how many peoples will still cal it a game about pirates. Thous so coaled "stereotypical assumptions."  are this factor that build "believable" setting for game for book or whatever art so you can "fill" it.

To be crystal clear here.

I'm not arguing here about Multiplier game aspect or arena aspect of the ONI(where weapons can be taken out completely without any harm), but single player part, where this STORY and all things that are logically connected to it are presented. In short. The Story is good but badly done, and thats it. Thats why I'm still babling about this weapon balancing , daodan evolution,character look ,logical choice..etc ,etc, etc.

I'm sorry, I am still totally lost as to what you are trying to say about Oni. Each post seems to target something different about the game. Are you trying to say that the idea behind Oni is good, but it was implemented poorly?

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#75 15/1/13 11:53

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: All time favorite games ..

Mm yeah i don't get what you're saying either  (repeating it won't help) ... (i'm not reading that lengthy post tongue no offense)
but i agree with Dirk ... each of us can interpret the game as they want, when I first played Oni I was ''immersed'' as you put it, in its atmosphere, I find the weapons and combat really balanced (for player and AI) and won't change a thing except add more weapon types maybe .. I find that we have an adequate amount of enemies with weapons and an adequate amount without .. If you don't feel the same about that then that's your personal interpretation and opinion which you're entitled to, and entitled to share with us once or twice (but you don't have to keep repeating it over and over in those lengthy posts that are borderlining spam, i know english isn't your first language but it's really hard to understand what you're saying)
so i ask what's the purpose of these posts ? To share your opinion .. I think we got it ... To change our opinions about it ? Not gonna happen,  to propose it as a modding project ? Then modifications thread is more appropriate, and you're free to go ahead and make the changes you feel would make it more balanced in your opinion.
Sorry if i'm sounding harsh/rude, but honestly i'm getting tired of scrolling down long, incoherent posts that are hard to understand on threads where they don't belong. This thread is titled what are your favorite games .. In anything but oni section .. If you want to talk about oni move it to modifications or general discussion, please.
@dirk did you really have to quote those huge posts when it's right above urs tongue ?
(Just being a neat freak not trying to pose as a moderator)

Last edited by Samer (15/1/13 12:15)


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