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#1 18/10/11 16:00

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Complete redesign of melee profiles

Hello guys (and one gal),
can you remember when you started playing the game? When enemies were challenge and you were slowly learning how to play against them? Years pass, time cannot be stopped...and what was difficult a few years ago is quite easy now.

Say, would you like to feel again that thrill of facing the enemy who is a mystery? Would you like to yet again experience formidable opponents and learn that Oni truly possesses "fast and ruthless hand to hand combat"? Then welcome in a right thread.

HERE is a package for AE Installer . Altered are all melee profiles with exception of Tanker2 profiles (are those even used anywhere in levels?), mini striker profile (used only once) and ninjabot profiles (training drone is OK and there is only a few vat drones and in only one level).


What does this mod do? It completely changes the way A.I. characters behave in hand to hand combat. Retail Oni has dulled combat A.I., with lots of pauses and redundant moves so average player is not discouraged. That is gone with this modification and conversely, A.I. is given as much possibilities as it can within reasonable limits.

Of course all melee profiles could be given 100% block skills and full palette of techniques (well, 32 is a limit). But why? So even tough every melee profile got some enhancement, there are still quite clear differencies between more skilled and less skilled combatants.

So...why are you still reading? Download the mod, compile level 0, give it a try and write your opinions in this thread ^_^

Loser

P.S.: YOUTUBE VIDEO, so everyone can make a picture how does Oni with this mod feel like.

P.S.2: Scrapped *.oni file and uploaded package, as requested. I didn't want to fiddle with packages as I am not AE team memeber, but Iritscen wanted it, so upon EdT's suggestion, Brutal AI (package number 21500) was modified into Brutal AI Version 1.1.

Last edited by Iritscen (23/4/13 13:05)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#2 18/10/11 17:37

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Cue tons of questions about compiling level 0 :-\  I'm looking forward to trying this, but why oh why couldn't it be a package, Loser?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#3 18/10/11 20:50

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Well, the easiest way is to go to the packages folder, go to 21500BrutalAI/oni/level0_Final/level0_Final and replace BINACJBOMelee Profile.oni with Loser's and install with AEInstaller.

After all the time spent modding, my fighting skills are terrible.  These new melee profiles are truly BRUTAL!

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#4 19/10/11 6:51

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Iritscen: first post of the thread was updated with package, as requested.

EdT, profiles were tested by me. Some boss battles may seem to be impossible. Well, remember, Oni is not only about fists, but also about guns.

From all this modding I have learnt that A.I. characters will NEVER ever be able to compete with humans. Hand to hand combat is such a complex task that even Oni with it quite rich A.I. logic cannot comprehend it as a whole. That means - if everything else fails, Lariat spam works. Always ^_^. Artificial Intelligence characters cannot be made to purposefully duck or maneuver out of player's attempt for lariat. At least it was possible to make them dodge lariats "by accident" simply because they are set to strafe heavily and Lariat cannot be initiated versus strafing opponent. But even such a countermeasure still fails against solid "Lariat->let enemy get up->Lariat->let enemy get up-> Lariat" spam. Named spam will be ALWAYS effective vs A.I. characters, unless code behind getup logic is somehow altered.

Last edited by Loser (19/10/11 6:51)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#5 19/10/11 13:12

Yoriko
Member
From: Sweden, Gothenburg
Registered: 15/2/11

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Unless someone comes up with a new system to break out of throws..........And that's totally not what you've been trying to do for the last couple of [insert time specification here] have you Loser?

Another solution would be that if you run towards an AI they will respond with crouching. You cant throw nor run-throw an enemy who's crouching.

There are also other ways of spamming: Tripple hit haymaker an enemy against a wall, let him get up, then rinse und repeat. (very effective against Dream lab Muro)


-I noticed that the hackers of oni community made a lot of modifications before they locked me up, do you have any idea what they want with an old game? -Modifications? What kind of modifications?
-Hard to tell, without getting a look at things but it looks like they're repurposing it. -Why?
-Beats me, all the game has is brutal melee combat and furious gunplay. -I dont like the sound of that.....

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#6 19/10/11 16:50

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Trying it now and I love it! Tried rooftops a couple times and only made it as far as that forcefield ninja (the one on the ledge where the hidden force shield is, like, the 6th enemy)
So now, going back to the beginning to re-hone my combat skills. Now every enemy is one to be taken seriously, and use of tactics and weapons is more favorable than charging into combat. Also, it's forcing me to chain kicks and punches to try and break their block which I find they use quite effectively, and even use my dodge moves a lot more. I am thoroughly enjoying this! Thanks Loser big_smile


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#7 20/10/11 0:57

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Yoriko, the throw escape system desigend by me works, but it is a workaround, so A.I. has issues with it. And it has a few problems on it own, which are effectively hindering its actual use. The only clean and working solution I see is altering the code of the game (addition of escape mechanics). And I cannot do that.

About crouching and A.I. - you cannot run throw crouching opponent, but there is no way to make A.I. crouch each time you are approaching. And even if there was it would be again no good, as crouched opponent can be thrown by standing throw. Standing throws work on crouched opponents, if they were not that would break gameplay even more than it is now.

About spamming triple punch, I have no way to see extents of the attack but from A.I.'s beahvior against it I guess there is something done to third punch in order to ensure A.I. won't block the attack too much. Talking about this, all Konoko's moves behave weird when they are executed by A.I. characters and it took quite a time to make A.I. Konoko a worthy challenge.


A bit of gamedesign talk: problem with vanilla Oni hand to hand combat is "absolute crouching defense". By pressing crouch key, you render about two thirds or opponent's moves useless as they will be either blocked or will not connect. The only thing which works versus crouch spamming is a standing throw. Sure you can jump attack (lots of characters have jump kick or jump punch which can reach crouching enemies) but that means at least half a second of total vulnerability, so croucher can stand up and move out of the attack's reach, preferably in jump attacker's back for a free rear throw. Also you can do a special if the character class has some thing which can hit crouched opponents, but yet again, these move usually telegraph themselves, so croucher stand up and moves away for a free retaliation.

I have a few ideas how to deal with this crouch issue and they could even work for A.I. in my opinion. So that would be a fix for crouch imbalanced gameplay. However, as I have written above, throw mechanics are still badly demanding ability to escape from grabs and in that area, I fear to say we are hitting TOTORO limits beacuse of A.I. characters.

Loser

Last edited by Loser (20/10/11 1:01)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#8 20/10/11 4:33

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 4/9/09
Website

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

is there any hope that one day u'll update the melee profile to include melee ids specially made for the custom characters sad ?


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#9 20/10/11 13:40

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

About crouching: I actually find that, although the AI don't crouch whenever you come at them, but I do find that they are better at reacting to it. For example, I'll be running at an enemy, and at the last second, he'll leg sweep me or something.

About Triple Punch: I find that AI like to counter-attack after the second move in any three move combo, so if they've blocked the second move, chances are, they're about to pwn you when you try to pull of the last blow.


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#10 20/10/11 16:45

RuthgerMiles
Member
From: Netherlands - Enschede
Registered: 11/10/08

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Wow I don't know what to say.. i had trouble fighting a green striker + a comguy. I i still didn't manage to win from barabas! Dude this give's me back so many youth memories..

I always played the game @ my cousins while they were working. 8 year old kid with some candies, a can of redbull and some old windows 98 pc. was so afraid of going to the levels past lvl 4 because I couldnt win and it gave me a creepy feeling walking trough them, you brought it back! So sick!

Last edited by RuthgerMiles (20/10/11 16:47)


You play to much oni if: You paint your hair purple, call your little brother Muro and beats him up 3 times a day like this...

crazydolfightom4lk0.gif

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#11 20/10/11 17:35

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 14/1/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Samer, we can talk about it, but maybe after a few months. Right now, all modding activities are put to sleep as I have already problems with unfinished university stuff.

Last edited by Loser (20/10/11 17:35)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#12 21/10/11 15:21

RuthgerMiles
Member
From: Netherlands - Enschede
Registered: 11/10/08

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

well, with the extra health mod on, and this installer basically every combo gets blocked and your getting raped rofl.


You play to much oni if: You paint your hair purple, call your little brother Muro and beats him up 3 times a day like this...

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#13 21/10/11 17:19

Yoriko
Member
From: Sweden, Gothenburg
Registered: 15/2/11

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

It's good time to start thinking of a different way of fighting then tongue


-I noticed that the hackers of oni community made a lot of modifications before they locked me up, do you have any idea what they want with an old game? -Modifications? What kind of modifications?
-Hard to tell, without getting a look at things but it looks like they're repurposing it. -Why?
-Beats me, all the game has is brutal melee combat and furious gunplay. -I dont like the sound of that.....

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#14 21/10/11 23:31

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Basically, you either need to fight dirty, which involves running around and use running throws, which personally I frown upon >_>
Or, what I do more now, is hary them with quick blows, one-two punches, kick, legs sweeps, etc, until something gets past, in which case, I'll do some extra damage, then put them down either by throwing or by finishing a combo. You really just gotta keep them busy, and if they've blocked too many of your attacks, cartwheel or roll away, then try again, or they'll hit you back.

Fighting groups of guys is very dangerous, because I think a sideeffect of the new IDs makes the AI seem to be able to coordinate a lot better, probably an indirect thing, but groups of opponents exponentially increase the amount of damage you sustain from a combat tongue
And yeah, use guns efficiently, to try and thin out groups of enemies


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#15 22/10/11 7:21

RuthgerMiles
Member
From: Netherlands - Enschede
Registered: 11/10/08

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Also they dash now tongue and they use some attacks which never were used against me before.

Think Yoriko is right, need to improve my skills haha


You play to much oni if: You paint your hair purple, call your little brother Muro and beats him up 3 times a day like this...

crazydolfightom4lk0.gif

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#16 22/10/11 7:23

Yoriko
Member
From: Sweden, Gothenburg
Registered: 15/2/11

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

I like to have a one handed pistol out in combat so that I can shoot amidst the crowd whenever I want to seperate them and increase my chance of hitting one of them, when doing this remember to never cease attacking if an opponent is near cause then you'll find yourself laying on your back being filled with lead from your own gun in no time.


-I noticed that the hackers of oni community made a lot of modifications before they locked me up, do you have any idea what they want with an old game? -Modifications? What kind of modifications?
-Hard to tell, without getting a look at things but it looks like they're repurposing it. -Why?
-Beats me, all the game has is brutal melee combat and furious gunplay. -I dont like the sound of that.....

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#17 23/1/12 15:33

tokenoftime92
Member
From: Sopron, Hungary
Registered: 10/12/11
Website

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Barabas is cheating. (he makes the earthqueker 3-4 times in a row and every 15 seconds... change that please
edit: i defeated him but this is nonsense.

Last edited by tokenoftime92 (25/1/12 4:14)


What do we say to the God of Death?

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#18 24/1/12 16:28

kyletm57
Member
From: Lithia, FL.
Registered: 26/6/11

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

lol and i thought i was great at Oni, i got my ass kicked -_-


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#19 24/1/12 17:09

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

You guys ever try keep away?


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#20 24/1/12 22:24

tokenoftime92
Member
From: Sopron, Hungary
Registered: 10/12/11
Website

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

If you keep away hes gonna regenerate...I'm just sayin that this earthquaker spamming is nonsense.
See for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxkl3JbWmBc around 24:21
I defeated him, this was easy, because I figured his "script" out, when he does what.
IF I wouldn't run around him a bit and triple hit him always he would've earthquaker my ass off.

Last edited by tokenoftime92 (24/1/12 22:36)


What do we say to the God of Death?

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#21 25/1/12 4:05

Lukas Kreator
Member
Registered: 7/5/10

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Well, you did spam him too a lot with triple punch lol

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#22 25/1/12 4:12

tokenoftime92
Member
From: Sopron, Hungary
Registered: 10/12/11
Website

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

Thats the only way I could kill him.


What do we say to the God of Death?

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#23 27/1/12 1:57

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

I wonder if we could remove one of the model's bones and use that to do the Earthquake attack. Unfortunately the engine has no support for blockable particles sad


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#24 28/1/12 0:43

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

There is a big difference between the original melee profile and Loser's for the earthquake move.
Original:
<Weight>10</Weight>
<RepeatDelay>600</RepeatDelay>

Loser's:
<Weight>100</Weight>
<RepeatDelay>120</RepeatDelay>

Higher weight are preferred by engine, RepeatDelay how long before the move can be repeated.  120 = 2 seconds, 600 = 10 seconds.

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#25 28/1/12 14:10

Yoriko
Member
From: Sweden, Gothenburg
Registered: 15/2/11

Re: Complete redesign of melee profiles

So that means Barabas will use the move whenever he is allowed to correct?

I suggest we either lengthen the delay (obvious choice) or make it possible to dodge it by jumping, alternatively lenghten the vulnerability box when he's executing it.


-I noticed that the hackers of oni community made a lot of modifications before they locked me up, do you have any idea what they want with an old game? -Modifications? What kind of modifications?
-Hard to tell, without getting a look at things but it looks like they're repurposing it. -Why?
-Beats me, all the game has is brutal melee combat and furious gunplay. -I dont like the sound of that.....

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