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#1 01/21/07 02:01

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 01/20/07

Trivia

I am just reopening the trivia thread on the new forum. It lasted 13 pages (128 posts), but the last question was not answered. Here it is:

geyser wrote:

Is there a way to move forward faster than when dashing?
How does this affect the technique of long-distance jumps?

I still haven't found this out.

One suggestion was

Tosh wrote:

My guess is that you put the camera in front of Konoko, and then use the teleport to camera thing.
I dunno, though.

The reply was:

geyser wrote:

It doesn't involve anything but regular gameplay.
No hacking, no cheating, no scripting, no film-jumping.

It basically has to do with this:

The dashing jump-flip is the longest jump you can perform.

Now what is the absolute longest jump we can perform, really?
Is flipping relevant to the length of a jump (on an even ground)?
What else is relevant?

As I said, it's kinda technical. If you hadn't noticed anything until now, then it's not easy to get to grips with it.

Well, there's always the "why did Shinatama ignore Griffin's emergency override?".
And "What two Bungie staff members have Oni characters named after them?"
Hint: those two are connected.

You can read the rest of this thread here


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#2 01/22/07 12:01

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Trivia

May I draw your attention to these:

Well, there's always the "why did Shinatama ignore Griffin's emergency override?".
And "What two Bungie staff members have Oni characters named after them?"
Hint: those two are connected.

They are less technical than the one about "what's faster than dashing?"


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#3 01/23/07 03:01

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 01/20/07

Re: Trivia

I went through the credits at the end, but no names stood out. Is it there? Should I keep my eyes double peeled?


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#4 01/23/07 07:01

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

I went through the credits at the end, but no names stood out. Is it there?

Only one of those two guys made it in the credits. I spotted the two of them while browsing the Staff Tracker list on Bungie Sightings.

Should I keep my eyes double peeled?

I told you the two trivia up there were connected, so if you have trouble answering one, give the other a try ("Why did Shinatama etc?").
Hint: the PHOENIX RISING chapter looks like a nice hunting ground... (duh) smile


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#5 01/24/07 05:01

Tosh
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From: Oregon, USA
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Trivia

Oh wait!
Sliding is faster than dashing, isn't it?

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#6 01/24/07 07:01

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

After a quick check, sliding is slower than dashing. In Konoko's case, at least.
The Strikers obviously come to a stop at the end of their slide, so...
Same thing for the Ninja: they slow down a lot at the end of their slide.
But they're going pretty fast at the start of their slide (faster than when dashing, actually).

Hint: that was a hint. Sliding is not the answer I had it in mind.
What I thought of is something that allows you to jump further.

Now what is the absolute longest jump we can perform, really?
Is flipping relevant to the length of a jump (on an even ground)?
What else is relevant?

The operating part of the (technical) trivia is thus:
"How does this affect the technique of long-distance jumps?"

Last edited by geyser (02/03/07 15:02)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#7 01/24/07 18:01

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 01/20/07

Re: Trivia

Does it involve something like trickjumping? I did some experiments, but so far I haven't found anything.
That doesn't mean I'm giving up though!


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#8 01/24/07 18:01

quarkmac
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From: Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

I don't know if this is the answer you're looking for, but the farthest you can junp off a ledge is by pressing space and shift
one after the other and hold them down.  You must be dashing.  I you do it quick enough, Konoko will not jump, but will just creep after a slide.  Then
just walk off a ledge, and presto!  You do a huge jump and you can go really far!

EDIT:  I just re-tested.  It's a cool jump, because Konoko stays in the crouch animation while jumping, but it's not the farthest you can do at all.

quarkmac

Last edited by quarkmac (01/24/07 18:01)


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#9 01/24/07 19:01

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Trivia

So close, and yet so far.
I never tried to hold down CROUCH so as to keep crouching after the slide, but
it's true that starting a slide when you should be jumping leads to a surprising effect.
(especially when there's a ledge: slide off the ledge and down, then jump up while in midair... looks pretty weird/cool indeed)

The answer I'm expecting has to do with dashing and jumping. Just that. Nothing unphysical at all. It makes a lot of sense, actually.
Hm, what kind of hint can I give without giving out the answer? Let's put it this way:
Have you tried to bridge some really large gaps with a dash-jump lately?
(Rooftops has plenty of those, notably the shortcut to the final building: you know how you can clear SP3 in 20 seconds bar the cutscene? that shortcut)
OK, so take that really big gap, preferably one that's so big that it's tricky. We want to know just how tricky it is and why.
Sometimes your dash-jump will take you to the other side, and sometimes it won't (Whooo... Splat)
(erm, yeah, Dev Mode and custom scripts help a lot for that kind of "training")
Actually, if the pit is wide enough, you're likely to fall short most of the time, by so much you'll think it's impossible to jump across it.
Yet just when you're ready to give up, for some reason you'll manage a dash-jump that's almost 25% longer. 25 f##king percent!!!

My question is: what is the reason why some dash-jumps take you so much further than an "average" dash-jump?
And what is the "science" behind those hyper-long jumps? Is it reproducible enough for rational use?
There. I've almost given you the answer smile

Last edited by geyser (01/24/07 19:01)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#10 01/25/07 09:01

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Trivia

Geyser, do you mean that jumping technique when you are dashing towards ledge and hit spacebar right before the moment you start falling???
By doing this, you're going to be "launched" not from the platform, but from platform's edge and that results in a great lenght of the jump. I am doing this when I am "parkouring" in the Regional state building.
Loser


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#11 01/26/07 10:01

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Trivia

Jumping when already falling is a neat "feature" of Oni, sure.
But the 25% boost I'm talking about has nothing to do with it.
You can get it on a completely even ground, for one thing...
(then again, mastering it can help you jump across pits)

Where exactly are you parkouring in RSB? I'm curious smile
(Maybe we should make a thread dedicated to parkour...)

Back to the trivia: Loser, as an OBD expert, you should know.
And I'll even say: as a TRAM hacker, you really should know.

Oh, and IIRC you also know about the other (twin) trivia
(Shinny and Bungie staff) so try not to spoil it for the others.

Hint to the others: if you're too desperate to play PHOENIX RISING again, well,
you can always look for "emergency override" on the old OCF... Or on the wiki smile

Last edited by geyser (01/26/07 10:01)


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#12 01/26/07 11:01

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Trivia

Geyser, I am no OBD expert. Why? Because I don't know the answer ^_^'. From all your talking it seems that velocities of the animation right before jump affects lenght of the jump. So I have to find some animation when I move faster than dashing, even if only for a second. Than I have to jump right in that moment. Also, flip extends lenght of the jump, but I don't think it is relevant. It just pushes you a bit further. To be honest, I have experienced this "extra long jump" a few times when I was (unsucessfully) debugging Mukade's crazy escape script. Or I think I have experienced it. Konoko was suddenly launched so far (from the even ground, not from the edge) I thought it was some bug. Is it what we are searching for???
Loser

Last edited by Loser (01/26/07 12:01)


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#13 01/26/07 13:01

quarkmac
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From: Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Trivia

I think i know what geyer is talking about.  i tried it.
...  25% ???   I don't know about that.

Are you positive? It's that much further?

Just asking.  Cuz it doesn't look that much farther to me.
But thats just me.  Maybe you could post a video!

quarkmac


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#14 01/26/07 13:01

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

I'm not 100% sure about flipping, but I think it just lets you clip to higher platforms during the flip.
So, irrelevant to long jumps unless you flip right before landing, so as to clip to the remote ledge insteading of bumping into it.
(well, that's pretty relevant, actually)

I have experienced this "extra long jump" a few times when I was (unsucessfully) debugging Mukade's crazy escape script. Or I think I have experienced it. Konoko was suddenly launched so far (from the even ground, not from the edge) I thought it was some bug. Is it what we are searching for???

Yes. I too discovered that thing while "debugging" MCE smile
More specifically, I was looking for the absolute fastest shortcut to the final elevator. One of them takes too long for your script. Two of them are indicated by Mukade (jumping from the higher platform is safer, but it hurts you more).
I was interested in another one, the fastest of them all: when you reach the antennas, you can jump onto the railing to your left, and jump off that. Now that jump is definitely one long motherf##ker. Even though I tried "jumping at the last moment", I failed most of the time, and by a rather long shot... but not always.

From all your talking it seems that velocities of the animation right before jump affects lenght of the jump. So I have to find some animation when I move faster than dashing, even if only for a second.

Hm, what could that animation be? smile
Actually, I was investigating on what seems like a bug in Konoko Payne (XZ displacements don't match the anims as nicely as in Oni). So I went and edited the XZ track of KONOKOrun_lt (and set the XZ increment to something really big for a few frames). The result was an ability to make absolutely huge jumps, provided you press JUMP during those few frames. I'm thinking about adding such "speedy frames" to anims like "run_stop" or "1step_b". They'd spice up "multiplayer" a lot smile Or single player... they're really fun.

So, what non-hacked anim has a speedy frame that's faster than dashing? Oh, there can be an exotic anim (a Ninja slide, for instance) meeting that criterion, but the one we can be sure about is: dashing itself.
There's the average speed of a dashing Konoko (about 7.86 m/s), and there's the instantaneous velocity at any given moment. Since the speed is not uniform, there have to be moments where Konoko is thrusting forward much faster than average. How much faster? By almost 25%
When Konoko's left foot is in contact with the ground and she pushes on it, right then she's travelling at about 9.76 m/s.
(works about the same for Ninja and Strikers; Ninjas are "much" faster than Konoko: their peak speed is 10.3 m/s )

So, jumping while pushing against the ground gives you an extra boost. As I said, this makes actual physical sense.
However, it's not too practical because it requires very precise timing. There aren't many speedy frames per cycle...
And timing this together with the jump-while-already-falling-off-the-ledge is even more difficult, not to say impossible.

There smile

Last edited by geyser (01/26/07 13:01)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#15 01/26/07 19:01

Tosh
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From: Oregon, USA
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Trivia

Ok so I tried testing this... on TCTF Regional HQ (Redux) go outside Griffen's office, down the left hall and out the second door on the left there. (Turn off the lasers first if you really must) Incapacitate the three guards there then there's a ledge that extends out and a building accross the street. You can't make it to the building in a normal jump - just falls short. Somehow I did a double though, of left-foot down just off the edge of this ledge, causing me to not only make the jump but make it at least a corpse length in. tongue
So I guess it does make a difference!

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#16 01/27/07 02:01

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 01/20/07

Re: Trivia

Well, I guess we didn't find that out by ourselves. It makes sense though. I did some tests, and yes, you can certainly see a big difference. I also tried jumping off the corner of a ledge.

Now to find the ovveride thing...


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#17 01/27/07 15:01

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

You can't make it to the building in a normal jump - just falls short. Somehow I did a double though, of left-foot down just off the edge of this ledge, causing me to not only make the jump but make it at least a corpse length in. tongue
So I guess it does make a difference!

I did some tests, and yes, you can certainly see a big difference.

Hey, glad to see the knowledge about that thing can be put to practical use after all... Thanks, guys!

Well, I guess we didn't find that out by ourselves.

Well, I guess I  did smile


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#18 01/27/07 21:01

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 01/20/07

Re: Trivia

geyser wrote:

Hey, glad to see the knowledge about that thing can be put to practical use after all... Thanks, guys!

Well, actually it's not that practical, because if you are running towards a ledge and are waiting for the left foot to come down just before the ledge, then I say there's a pretty small chance of getting it in the first go.

Still, with practice it could be put to common use.

I think I may have experienced this effect before when I have been meaning to jump-flip onto an enemy, and I suddenly was propelled farther than I had anticipated, missing the guy.


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#19 01/28/07 13:01

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Trivia

Well, I guess we didn't find that out by ourselves.

OK, now I see you were commenting on how I gave you the answer...
Not a big loss, I'd say. I figured that if Loser didn't guess it, no one would.

if you are running towards a ledge and are waiting for the left foot to come down just before the ledge, then I say there's a pretty small chance of getting it in the first go.

That's what I meant when I said I feared it was impractical. Not something you can use in the fire of the action, obviously.
It doesn't have to be the left foot, actually. The right-foot push is only a little slower, and still much faster than average.
It can also be that the foot-push boost overcompensates for not jumping at the last moment.
Then you don't care as much about the latter, and concentrate on the former.

If you have some time (and a lot of practice), you can position yourself at just the right spot for the trick to work (with sidesteps).
The trick can also be used to move around (slightly) faster than when dashing (dash, jump off left foot, land, repeat). Silly smile
What impresses me most is Tosh's jump to that building off the top of the TCTF HQ... Theory makes miracles, definitely...
(like when Kerr has told Mai about the Chrysalis, then it's OK to dive into acid, not before... it's psychological ^^ )

Last edited by geyser (01/28/07 13:01)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#20 01/29/07 21:01

Tosh
Member
From: Oregon, USA
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

smile Supprised me too!
It was crazy though, on my first try I accidently slipped over the edge and I fell like an inch, then it launched me up as if I had jumpped. O_o
By the way it wasn't much of a pratical jump, deadly fall. tongue

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#21 02/03/07 15:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

OK, guys. Zombie Shinatama's insubordination doesn't inspire you, obviously. Neither do the two Oni folks named after Bungie folks...
Or maybe you've played PHOENIX RISING so many times already that the idea of going through it again makes you shudder.
And of course you're too proud to just go and search the previous OCF or OG for "emergency override". Too easy. OK.

(when and if the answer comes up here, I think we could muse about the hidden meaning of this whole episode...)

Anyway, here's another one for you. Should be easy enough.
Every Bungie game has sevens in it. Sometimes lots. What about Oni?
If I asked you to name the seven in Oni, what would it be?


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#22 02/03/07 15:02

dez_zt
Member
From: Hungary
Registered: 01/23/07

Re: Trivia

Mai says "Griffin made me a monster when I was 7 years old, and emprisoned the only man brave enough to protect me" is that it? (if im not mistaking)

Last edited by dez_zt (02/03/07 15:02)

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#23 02/03/07 15:02

geyser
Member
From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
Website

Re: Trivia

Yup. It's "imprisoned", but apart from that it's accurate. BTW, full collection of Quotes HERE
Since you were the one who mentioned the 7 on the other thread, you could have let the others guess...
Anyway, there are other sevens and "instances of Bungie themes" in Oni.
Some of them have been posed as trivia on the other thread, but not all.
I'm almost sure Oni's (other) sevens haven't been covered.
So, everybody just pop a post when you see a seven smile

And don't forget about the Omega Vault Incident...


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#24 02/09/07 20:02

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 01/20/07

Re: Trivia

I know that in Halo, the pistol has the Japanese Kanji for 7 on it.


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#25 02/12/07 04:02

Mango
Member
From: VIC, Australia
Registered: 01/20/07

Re: Trivia

Back to the "Why Did Shinatama Disobey Griffin", earlier I found this:

Most of the modifications Commander Griffin asked for have been made, but none have been tested.

That type of android was never designed to operate this kind of system and the condition of the unit also made it difficult to initialize many of the primary subroutines.

It wasn't actually accepted as the answer, but I think it may be part of the reason.

Also, I found this:

This behavior alone is alarming in that it suggests an unprecedented degree of free will in the android...

I think this means that disobeying Griffin was part of this.

I still can't see how this is connected to the names...


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