Oni Central Forum

A forum for the Oni community

You are not logged in.

#1 8/6/11 21:14

Link1228
Member

Movelist editor

Is there an XML editor to make editing moves and movelists easier?

Offline

#2 9/6/11 6:57

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Movelist editor

I'm afraid not, if you mean an editor with a GUI.  We can export the data to XML and edit it by hand, but that's it.  I have been hoping for a while that someone would write something like that, though.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#3 9/6/11 12:02

Lukas Kreator
Member

Re: Movelist editor

Inspiration... I lack that.

But I can make a quick and dirty app. However, I cannot make an animation with the character attacking or anything like that... That will be a basic GUI. Just tell me your OS and I might make it.

Also, for that thing, Iritscen, I'm still trying to... get inspirated... Something blocks me but I don't know what. Well, we have the prototype, so that is not really a great priority... I think...

Offline

#4 9/6/11 15:29

Link1228
Member

Re: Movelist editor

I should be able to make a GUI for it with VB6, at least once I understand TRACs and TRAMs and such more thoroughly.  To my understanding, VB6 programs can typically be used on Macs as well.  Should I make this my next summer project?

Offline

#5 9/6/11 15:35

TOCS
Member

Re: Movelist editor

I believe every contribution done is gladly appreciated. smile I for one really like GUI's over just a plain text box. Of course a command line should be integrated with the program, but a GUI will make everything a lot easier to handle. I think it sounds like a great idea. smile


T0CS.png

Offline

#6 9/6/11 15:47

Link1228
Member

Re: Movelist editor

I'll get started on that after I finish writing up a wall of text for the Multiplayer Character Rebalance Project, then.  Is there a detailed guide for TRACs and TRAMs and any related, necessary file types I'm not aware of?

Offline

#7 9/6/11 17:01

Lukas Kreator
Member

Re: Movelist editor

Suggestions:

I don't think you need a command line, unless you plan to make special commands that change files without user action. The Edition tools are examples of usefull command line tools.
As for XML, I don't remember much about VB6.0, but for VB .NET, I use the XML library, wich comes along with NET. Maybe there is some XML COM library...

Are you going to change files directly, through binary, or change the XMLs? I'd suggest editing the XMLs. You can also convert files to XML and then back to ONI (or other file types), through OniSplit.

Offline

#8 9/6/11 17:37

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Movelist editor

Wow, it's nice to have someone offer to do this out of the blue.  The community can always use more GUI tools for its modding work, the more comprehensive the tool, the better.

TRAM Education: Have you had the opportunity to browse the forum's earlier topics on this subject, Link1228?  There's a ton that's been said on the topic of TRAMs, so it's hard to know where to even point you.  EdT has a thread devoted to listing links to tutorials, if you don't mind picking around for what seems to be applicable here.  You might have already seen that the actual byte-by-byte documentation for the game resources is on the wiki, so reading the page on, say, TRAMs alongside an XML export of a TRAM or TRAC will probably be the way to learn.

Functionality: What specifically did you want the program to do?  Would it simply edit all of the bitsets in a TRAM?  That would certainly be useful.  I also am obligated to take advantage of any opportunity at all that I can find to ask for a certain comparison feature that would be very useful for us on the AE Team.  Here's a couple crude mock-ups of what I'm thinking of:
Editor%20pair%20mass%20comparison.png
Editor%20complex%20mass%20comparison.jpeg
I don't want to make a complicated task out of something simple, but the fact is that the AE Team has a serious need to be able to review and compare large numbers of TRAM changes at once.  This would take the form of (Figure A) comparing two folders of the same files to see what changed as well as (Figure B) comparing a set of different TRAMs to each other to see how values like HP Damage are set in proportion to each other.  The example in Figure B uses ONCCs, but the concept is the same: the lefthand bar contains tabs, basically, for each group of values in the file type, and the righthand side shows the values for each group of data fields.

The reason I bring this up is that it's very difficult to successfully manage packages like the Andrashi system (and other upcoming work) without a tool like this; if someone else doesn't do it, I'll probably have to take the time out of my other Oni work to write it myself.  Does this seem like something feasible, at least for a 2.0 version of your tool?  Feel free to ask questions if the above diagrams are unclear, most people have trouble wrapping their heads around the concept at first.

Command line: As Lukas mentioned, OniSplit is our command line tool, so there's no need to recreate that.  Because OniSplit always represents the current state of our engine knowledge, it's best to make a program that uses OniSplit to read the game data files (that is, convert the .dats or .onis to XML and then read that XML into your program), rather than reinventing the wheel.  That way OniSplit serves as the core engine that can be updated independently to affect all our tools.

As far as your work, LK, I'd like to chat about it again at some point (I'm out of time to respond here and now anyway).  Try to catch me online some time soon.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#9 9/6/11 18:10

Dirk Gently
Member

Re: Movelist editor

Link1228 wrote:

I should be able to make a GUI for it with VB6, at least once I understand TRACs and TRAMs and such more thoroughly.  To my understanding, VB6 programs can typically be used on Macs as well.  Should I make this my next summer project?

This is completely unfounded and untrue.


@Iritscen As for a mac editor, whenever my time can be taken off fulltime work on other projects, OniLib should include this support.

Last edited by Dirk Gently (9/6/11 18:11)

Offline

#10 9/6/11 18:24

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Movelist editor

Dirk Gently wrote:

This is completely unfounded and untrue.

Hehe, that was a rather demonstrative way of putting it.  Thanks for mentioning that, though, Dirk, I meant to look into this when I wrote my post, and then forgot.  I haven't heard of VB6 apps running on the Mac, only .NET apps.  I've never worked with VB .NET, so I don't know if it's harder or much different from regular VB.

@Iritscen As for a mac editor, whenever my time can be taken off fulltime work on other projects, OniLib should include this support.

Well, if it's not too much of a time-suck; as you know, we can use you in other areas that you're more specifically suited to helping with.  But as long as one person, anybody, can implement this comparison feature (and in a tool that runs on the Mac), I will be very happy.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#11 9/6/11 18:31

Lukas Kreator
Member

Re: Movelist editor

If you want to use VB, I suggest RealBasic, but it is paid. VB .NET could work, but I am still uncertain about Mac NET compatibility hmm
Of course, you can always try other languages if that doesn't work.

As for Iritscen, I can probabily find you at MSN sooner or later.


\/ No problem. That happens all the time between us XD

Last edited by Lukas Kreator (9/6/11 20:12)

Offline

#12 9/6/11 20:05

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Movelist editor

Deleted: A bunch of posts between me, LK, and Dirk that really had nothing to do with the topic of the thread.  Sorry for your lost words, LK, but we were all off-topic and I shouldn't have let it go that far.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#13 11/6/11 16:37

Link1228
Member

Re: Movelist editor

Sorry for not replying for a few days; sick and distracted.

Looking over your suggestions, I'm beginning to realize I probably have more to learn than I thought.  Should be fun.  My original concept was just to make an editor for TRACs and TRAMs, but I think I'll add ONCCs as well.  Hopefully there'll be, as you suggest, a 2.0 for dealing with large numbers of attacks or characters at once.  I'll post again if I have questions, or once I think I understand the file types enough to get started on the programming itself.

Edit: I plan on editing XML files and letting OniSplit turn it back into files Oni can use.  I know how to count in binary and hex, but that's about it...

Last edited by Link1228 (11/6/11 16:40)

Offline

#14 11/6/11 19:15

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Movelist editor

Link1228 wrote:

Sorry for not replying for a few days; sick and distracted.

You were only gone a couple days smile It was sudden, though, so I'm glad to see we didn't scare you off.  My post below might do the trick, however ^_^;

Looking over your suggestions, I'm beginning to realize I probably have more to learn than I thought.  Should be fun.

Heh, it's good to hear that you like a challenge.  I think every true programmer enjoys learning new things, it's what makes the whole exercise worthwhile sometimes.

My original concept was just to make an editor for TRACs and TRAMs, but I think I'll add ONCCs as well.

You don't need to add ONCCs on my account.  However, once you've read the thread I link to below, I think you'll see that it's no harder to make an editor for *all* data types than to make an editor for *one* data type.  The key is laying a good modular foundation, and then the second key is getting other people to make your tag definition files so you don't go crazy from tedium smile

Hopefully there'll be, as you suggest, a 2.0 for dealing with large numbers of attacks or characters at once.

Well, since you were here last, Lukas Kreator already wrote a basic comparison program that may meet our needs in that area (although so far it just supports what I labeled in my earlier post as Figure B).  It's possible that, depending on the language you plan to develop in, Link, you might even benefit from teaming up with Lukas and making a single program that performs comparisons and editing.

All right, just let us know what questions come up for you as you learn.  I'll simply close with a link for you to read: http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=1776.  That thread contains pretty much all of my thoughts on what would be useful in an editor.  Don't miss my cheesy UI mock-up on the third page.  Once again, if I thought I was complicating things too much for you, I wouldn't be showing you that thread with our suggestions, but I think that it's just a little trickier to make a universal editor than it is to make an editor that only edits one resource type.  Ultimately, though, you should aim for whatever is comfortable for you to develop, and not let me make it into a big chore.  You won't hurt my feelings if you have your own plans smile


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#15 11/6/11 22:30

Link1228
Member

Re: Movelist editor

[Reads Lukas Kreator's XML Editor thread.  Reads Kojiro Editor thread.  Downloads Kojiro.  Reads XMLEquality thread.  Feels like an utter moron.]  Well.  Safe to say there's nothing I can do to help with this.  Sorry...

Offline

#16 12/6/11 2:11

Lukas Kreator
Member

Re: Movelist editor

Oh, sorry... Still, I suggest you to try it. Experience is the best way to learn how to script. Anyway, my programs are not wonderful, just average. With years of practice, it will just be a matter of research about a specific class/library to make almost anything you want. It would be useful for the community and you would learn a lot, even if it takes some time.

Offline

#17 12/6/11 7:12

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Movelist editor

Hmm, sorry to hear that you don't think you can help; is it just too much to learn at once?  I remember joining the community and taking months to realize just how much I had to learn in order to contribute.

To come back to your original idea of "editing moves and movelists", I think the only reason more people weren't responding to that as a desired tool is that movelists are fairly easy to edit in XML format.  In fact, most file types are, including ONCCs.  The real value in a modding tool would be if it went beyond just the act of showing bitset values and allowing one to edit them, and did something smarter or more comprehensive (as discussed in the thread I linked to).

As far as the moves themselves, the 3D animations, editing those requires exporting them to a standard 3D format and then working on them in a full-on 3D modeling app, so as long as we have a working conversion tool (we do, kinda), that's all that can be done to help the process along, and it's up to the modder to learn 3D modeling and animating.  I hope that helps you understand where we're at, as far as modding abilities and needs.

If you have any other ideas for modding tools, though, just let us know.  I'm sure there's helpful tools that we haven't even thought of making.

P.S.: Lukas, if we aren't going to have someone else working on these ideas, this means that you need to actually finish some of these programs of yours :->


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

#18 12/6/11 14:22

Lukas Kreator
Member

Re: Movelist editor

LOL, that's a good point. Actually, it is difficult to work on a lot of stuff at the same time, but I'll try.

Offline

#19 12/6/11 14:42

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Movelist editor

Well, of course if you have schoolwork and other RL stuff, there's nothing you can do about it.  We'll still be here when you've graduated smile


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB