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#51 15/2/11 17:28

Mukade
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

I love the idea of a ground grab leg cracker big_smile

But yeah, there will have to be seperate animations for front grab a rear grab, for each fallen_forward and fallen_back.

And after that, although it would be less of a priority, we could make new ones and vary them per character style. I'll make the ground grab my next priority then.


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#52 9/6/11 17:10

Link1228
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

I haven't gotten to play Flatline much yet.  Since you use different moves when you're fighting a whole lot of opponents then when you're only fighting one, and fighting humans is different than fighting AI anyway, what I say might not be as applicable to multiplayer.  Also note that I've been using Andrashi's Melee, so some things may work a bit differently.  You can mentally add the words "I think" to the start of every paragraph, if you consider the thought important.

I find in single player at least, Konoko's wider range of moves gives her an edge over the less varied, more specialized classes.  Hence, I think the move count should generally be the same for all classes, and characters should be weakened a bit for having a wider variety of moves.  Hopefully, this would mean adding new moves to all classes but Konoko and Fury, but I haven't been around long enough to know what you guys can pull off.

I think making the Comguy / Henchman / Agent a weapons-based class is a good idea, but starting with extra ammo is a bad idea.  Melee fighters don't run out of ammo, so the only way to balance the Henchman's ability to run out of their specialty is to make them stronger than other classes while he has it.  This has an unfortunately high chance of making them practically unbeatable until they run out of ammo, at which point they're useless.  Perhaps instead, make them very weak at melee combat and limit their max clips to 3, but make them regenerate a clip every twenty seconds or so?  (Assuming that's possible.  I'm not much of a modder yet.)  Probably give them very good disarm throws as well, to make taking their gun less of an instantaneous loss.

At first Elites seem to be a straight tank, but they actually have a surprising amount of area of effect to their attacks.  (For examples: Cannonball, their directional kicks, their rising punch, and their forward punch all have more width than I, at least, noticed until recently.)  Considering large, slow characters are the ones most likely to get ganged up on anyway, the Elite could be optimized for fighting more than one enemy.

Muro's long combos have a tendency to leave him open, but he has a lot of moves that are good for safely covering ground, especially if you make his forward dodge an attack and give him monster Muro's rising punch.  (Probably as a separate attack though, such as back, forward+punch, and nerfed a bit.)  Furthermore, his attacks tend to be hard to block, and his grabs would probably be some of the strongest once he gets in close.  These would make him fairly distinct, I think, though perhaps similar to the Ninja.  His punch combo would definitely have to be nerfed, though, such as lowering the damage drastically and removing the knockdown.

I think the SWAT / Trooper's main flaw is that they don't have enough good attacks, with the only widely useful attack being standing Lion's Axe due to its power, unblockable nature and (as far as the Trooper's concerned) speed.  Their punch combo tends to be to slow to actually combo with.  Standing Lion's Fist isn't great to begin with, but its poor collision (intentional or not) makes it generally worthless.  (Raising its damage and knockback would make it useful, though.)  Rising Lion's Axe doesn't have much range or damage, leaves the Trooper vulnerable and usually doesn't knock anyone over, meaning it usually does more harm than good.  Rising Lion's Fist is a decent attack, but its short range compared to the Trooper's size coupled with the Trooper's difficulty in using rising attacks quickly typically makes it too hard to pull off.  (That last bit might be a moot point if they block low attacks while standing, though.)  To note, their crouching foward kick, which is shared with the Striker, is pretty much unescapable without Andrashi's Melee.

I never really used the Strikers or Tankers much so I don't have any thoughts on them yet, and the others don't really need improving on.  Theoretically speaking, would a multiplayer class rebalance affect single player as well?

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#53 9/6/11 17:46

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

To your ending question, "No".  Multiplayer will, at some point, run off its own GDF with its own set of mods applied, which could include a specialized Andrashi mod just for MP play.  So we either need to discuss SP balancing in a separate thread from MP balancing, or else make sure that any SP balances work well with MP, so that we can apply the changes across the board.  This would have the obvious advantage of not requiring players to deal with separately-tweaked combat systems depending on whether they're playing online or not.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#54 5/7/11 12:28

Mukade
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Now that I'm back, I kind of want to give ground grabs a shot. I was reading through Loser's text on the previous page, and it mostly makes sense. But about the anim types, in your example, you used PF_PF, so when performing the throw, would you actually have to do PF_PF do execute the throw? If so, then it might be difficult to make multiple ground throws, because we won't be able to use the same AnimType for each throw. Or does the AnimType not have any bearing on what keystrokes you need to use to execute? This is all a bit confusing for me, so I could be wrong. Any clarification would be splendid smile

Last edited by Mukade (5/7/11 12:30)


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#55 5/7/11 18:06

Yoriko
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Hmm, if com guys (or if you want to add merc snipers) being a weapon user class I suggest you could somehow making them hold their weapon perfectly still while moving, jumping or dodging while the other classes weapons bumbs up and down a bit when doing the above.

I think the ninjas footsteps sounds should be nerfed or removed completely since the only way to sneak up on an opponent by creeping is if the opponent is standing still or walking which I cant think of why a player would do that in a war zone.

I think bosses shouldnt exist in a normal deathmatch but instead be available in a special gamemode where you are the master of a team and by picking your boss you also pick his/hers followers. Griffin: TCTF. Konoko: Civilians. (rebels) Mukade: ninjas and merc snipers. Muro: furies, tankers and comguys. Barabas: Strikers and elite strikers.

That's my 2 cents smile


-I noticed that the hackers of oni community made a lot of modifications before they locked me up, do you have any idea what they want with an old game? -Modifications? What kind of modifications?
-Hard to tell, without getting a look at things but it looks like they're repurposing it. -Why?
-Beats me, all the game has is brutal melee combat and furious gunplay. -I dont like the sound of that.....

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#56 11/7/11 4:07

Leus
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

I think Muro should be another balance class like Konoko, with battle-ready males as his alternates just like females are to Konoko.

I don't think Strikers should be a balance class though.  They need to have some sort of unique advantage.  Perhaps less cool-down after throws, specials and knockdowns?  Wider range?

Maybe ComGuys should have infinite ammo?  Might sound kind of bad, but as long as you didn't buff the guns (maybe nerf a few) I think it could still be balanced.  He'd just be good at suppressing people, but he wouldn't be able to move that fast with his gun out or get very close.

As for the rest of the ideas, I love it and I'd be interested to see how they play out.  I hope the multiplayer project continues at some point.  smile


If we don't change the direction we're going, we'll likely end up where we're headed.

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#57 11/7/11 5:29

Yoriko
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Hmm, instead of Muro comguys could have some of his moves, the running kick, running slide, dogde backwards and forwards and forward punch to make them not so incredibly crappy at fighting. What to do with the TCTF light I think would be to increase their attack speed. Speaking of which, is it just me or is the light ops attacks faster than the normal light?


-I noticed that the hackers of oni community made a lot of modifications before they locked me up, do you have any idea what they want with an old game? -Modifications? What kind of modifications?
-Hard to tell, without getting a look at things but it looks like they're repurposing it. -Why?
-Beats me, all the game has is brutal melee combat and furious gunplay. -I dont like the sound of that.....

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#58 11/7/11 5:46

Jon God
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Infinite ammo, but have to reload, and have the clips replenish over time, so you can't just sit and spam something. Also maybe make them unable to holster, that way, they would be alight to camp with, but if rushed would have no chance.


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PSN: Jon_God
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#59 11/7/11 6:14

Leus
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Yeah they should definitely have to reload, I dunno about no holstering though.


If we don't change the direction we're going, we'll likely end up where we're headed.

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#60 30/7/11 6:56

Yoriko
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

I have a little idea for a gametype that belongs to the far far fetched future but I'll post it now anyway ^^

The two factions TCTF and SYND face off against each other. Both factions start of with only two classes but as they complete objectives / defeat their enemies in any way they level up their classes aswell as adding two new ones:

Syndicate:

level 1: grey fury, grey striker
level 2: blue fury, blue striker, comguy, blue tanker
level 3: red fury, red striker, elite comguy, (cooler accesories/armour, nicer looking shoulder antenna perhaps) red tanker, red elite, red ninja

TCTF:

level 1: female cop, male cop
level 2: female tctf, male tctf light, merc sniper, (with different melee moves) robot (supposedly the same abilities as the tanker but different melee attacks)
level 3: female ops, male ops light, merc sniper ops, robot ops, SWAT ops, tctf ninja/spy/recon troop

As the factions progress through levels the classes unlocks new moves. (heavy kicks and punches perhaps)
Strikers and furies would be able to stagger their opponent with a quick footstomp while female and male cops uses the willow kick to stagger their opponent.
The tctf robot and tctf spy would have different meleeing abilities than their enemy equivalent tanker and ninja but more or less have the same role in the match.

Please dont concern yourself about thoughts how to make this work, I'm just wondering whether you guys think this was a nice idea. smile

Last edited by Yoriko (30/7/11 6:59)


-I noticed that the hackers of oni community made a lot of modifications before they locked me up, do you have any idea what they want with an old game? -Modifications? What kind of modifications?
-Hard to tell, without getting a look at things but it looks like they're repurposing it. -Why?
-Beats me, all the game has is brutal melee combat and furious gunplay. -I dont like the sound of that.....

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#61 30/7/11 8:33

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

The only problem could be players being able to remember which moves were available.  I hardly know which moves each class has to start with, so a reduced moveset would be confusing for me.  I did actually have a very similar idea to this for MP that I was calling Pyramid, where each faction starts off with only the weakest or most basic classes, and as players lose, they don't respawn in the next round, but the remaining players upgrade to better classes.  At the end, it's down to one player on each team and they're controlling the strongest characters (e.g., Konoko vs. Muro).


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#62 1/1/12 7:10

Windy
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

neutral

Last edited by Windy (17/1/12 11:01)

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#63 8/1/12 20:45

Loser
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Windy, you say that so called "pyramid play" fixes all of the issues. OK. Which level would be TCTF SWAT troopers?

With exception of thugs, almost all classes can beat them to death by triple punch/sidestep strategy, since SWAT troopers have insanely slow triple punch combo, medicore kick combo which leaves them open a lot, punch forward attack which telepgraps itself too long given the damage (and collision issues) and finally, rear throw which deals no damage (bug). The only ways to effectively have a chance to win over opponent as vanilla SWAT trooper are:
- special attacks spam (are same as Striker's), 2 attacks
- Lion Axe kick spam, 1 attack
- throw spam, 4 attacks
- mixture of all of the above

Nice. From all possible attack moves the SWAT trooper has, only about seven are useful. The rest produces too fickle results to be used against human players. Similar with Elite troopers. They look meneacing, but only about seven/eight moves are actually useful, rest gives your enemy option to retaliate.

Or should we introduce even more cooldowns? Maybe apply cooldowns to ALL moves, so instead of making top-notch combat system, we change genre of the game to semiMMORPG.

Last edited by Loser (8/1/12 20:47)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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