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#1 24/5/10 3:22

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

What disappointed people about Oni?

Before you say something like "Blasphemy", I ask you to look a Bungie's other games, Marathon, Myth, Halo, ect. Look at the communities that surround the games, the good press they got, the overall good vibe from gamers. Now look at Oni. While Oni does have a community around it, it's always been much smaller, and it never had as many people in it. Oni suffered from lower reviews than any other of Bungie's games, and many people think of it as Bungie's black sheep, (for example, when Killzone 2 *I know, this is the second time I mentioned it on these forums* was not yet released, people were debating weather it would be any good: "Killzone 1 sucked, so Killzone 2 won't be good." "Not true, look a Bungie, Oni sucked, and Halo was amazing" this was usually followed by me charming in that Oni was actually a good game. Still, it's the stigma Oni seems to carry with gamers)

Oni isn't a bad game though, I mean, look at us, we're all still here, look at other games from 2001, how many of them still have active modding communities? There's something truly special about this game, weather we are able to pin it down or not.

Now, as mentioned in the other topic: ( http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 1605&p=4), if people are going to flock to try out Oni, what could be done to make them stay, and tell others to try it? What was it about the original games that people didn't like so much?

That's what I want to document for this topic, things about the game that reviewers, gamers, and Oni fans were disappointed in.

It would be cool to have people look up reviews for Oni, as well as get friends to try it, and get feedback, after all, these are the kind of people we need to win over.

I am starting a list, which I will update as people bring up more points, but I am going to start with mine:

• Lack of Multiplayer/Dropped Multiplayer segment
• Bland environments
• Lots of weapons that appeared in concept art/prerelease screens, that weren't included.
• Lack of overall weapon balance
• Story not fleshed out enough.
• Not enough variety in levels.
• Other announced and dropped gameplay stuff, levels, blood, IronDemon, ect.
• Certain clunky gameplay parts.
• Lack of any full on style.


(Ones that gamers have told me):

• Aiming wise, all AIs were the same, hired snipers to janitors.


(Review points)

• Under par graphics, and graphical effects.
• Not much interactive scenery.
• Story is not as deep as other bungie games.
• Most more powerful moves aren't that useful compared to basic attacks.
• Low character interaction with environment
• Not much environmental detail.
• Repetitious level design
• AI is poor, and doesn't notice things.
• Not enough replay value
• Not enough objectives besides kill all/get somewhere.


I will continue to update this when I hear more/read more.


Now, I am not trying to bash Oni, I love Oni too after all, instead, I am just trying to find out the negative points to it, so that we could, in theory, improve them.

P.S. I will include my reasons/fixes in a later post.


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#2 24/5/10 4:19

SCV
Member
From: Malaysia, Seremban
Registered: 23/5/10

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

well the trailer look different too.

Where the Giant Mech?

The cool guy of Oni Intro and bad ending scene also refer as Casey?

So Far there a lot of room for improvement yet......bungie.....(gone hang over with drawing.....excuse me for a month)

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#3 24/5/10 4:38

TOCS
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 4/4/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Basicly most of the stuff which was shown in the trailers. They never went to the final game, which made people dissapointed. I've seen several reviews stating that the lack of shown content, made it to a 9 instead of ten. Some where also pointing out the empty rooms there was in the game.

There's alot of small things which people whined about, but it would take ages for me to list here.

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#4 24/5/10 5:11

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Well I'm just going to cheat off the wiki page I wrote on this topic wink  Let's see...

* Stealth wasn't generally very useful
* Most levels are linear and have one path you can follow
* You train once at the beginning of the game in basic stuff (thanks goodness they taught me how to run forward and jump) and never get to practice your later-acquired moves that actually take practice to pull off
* The promise of fighting alongside allies never pans out in the TCTF level or anywhere else (although most of the game is about Konoko being on her own, so this isn't so inappropriate)
* Control settings have to be modified manually in a text file
* The infamous clipping problem where characters go through walls
* Can't skip cutscenes
* Graphics were mostly 16-bit in a 32-bit era of gaming
* Cutscenes feature mute models staring at each other with static headshots in the corners of the screen

We have a pretty decent list now, but what are you going to do with it, Jon, that's the trick. wink


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#5 24/5/10 5:43

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

As I promised:

• (Lack of Multiplayer/Dropped Multiplayer segment)

Yep, though I don't know what more I can add here.


• (Bland environments)

This is really too bad, but Oni's level design, and environments are poor, I cant really say otherwise. Warehouse, Bland research lab, (bio lab was pretty well designed I though), Airport, More airport, (I also though the TCTF building was pretty cool), atmospheric ect, ect. very repetitive, and kinda bland, next level, more of the same, but interior, (RSB was also, I thought, savepoints aside, pretty good), (I loved Rooftops), Dream Lab, while original, wasn't very fun. TCTF science prison was alright, bordered on good I thought. TCTF redux: been here, done that. Final level has a nice variance in scenery, and design.

So, out of 14, 8 I thought were underpar. As for a fix, for the moment, we could focus on fixing/adding to the AI/gameplay to try and distract from the level design.


• (Lots of weapons that appeared in concept art/prerelease screens, that weren't included.)

I feel like a list needs to be made of all the weapons shown, but not used in the final game. Adding them in isn't that huge a deal, balancing them might be though.


• (Lack of overall weapon balance)

This is being worked on, and has been discussed in the other topic, so I won't say much here.


• (Story not fleshed out enough.)

While the story is not bad, It feels like parts were cut out, and then the rest was stitched together. In terms of fixes, I'm not yet sure what we could do here. Unlike Myth, Marahon and Halo, they didn't leave tons of background information to think about.

Maybe more story consoles?


• (Not enough variety in levels.)

We never see any levels that are outside a building that aren't on like catwalks or roofs, bar the regional state building, if you jump through a window. What about a level in a park (Trees, grass, ect)? How's about a level in some living slums? A level where you run around some streets? What about a level with real offices, and cubicles and such? I think that too much time is wasted in "generic futuristic environment with boxes in it" hmm


• (Other announced and dropped gameplay stuff, levels, blood, IronDemon, ect.)

This is already being worked on to some degree, I believe?


• (Certain clunky gameplay parts.)

Sneaking and Platforming specifically felt awkward for me. For sneaking, I felt the people noticed some things too easily when trying to do a back breaker to them, and at the same time, you could taunt a few feet away, and they wouldn't notice. Also, the lack of diagonal sneaking hurts it a lot. I also feel, due to bad level design, there isn't anywhere were it's really encouraged. Sneaking shouldn't be mandatory, but it should be useful, I think.

As for platforming, again there's the problem of no diagonal, but this time it's for jumping. Couple that with difficult centering for landing, and strange momentum for jumping from slow movement, and it just feels awkward.

HOWEVER: I would like to see both of these improved, rather then pushed to the side, because, as nice as Oni's combat is, you need more to a game.


• (Lack of any full on style.)

Oni's graphical style is quite puzzling. The characters look anime, it's clear, but then the environments, and style of most of the stuff other then characters looks like it's going for a more realistic style, which makes me feel like they couldn't settle on a style they liked, and kinda left it in a experimental state.

I think it would be cool to see all of Oni cell shaded, but with better textures. I think it would go well with the intro/outro.


• (Aiming wise, all AIs were the same, hired snipers to janitors.)

We got any control over this?


• (Under par graphics, and graphical effects.)

The textures can be updated, but I am not sure what power we have over the effects: Sparks, fire, ect.


• (Not much interactive scenery.)

Having a physics engine would help a lot here. It would be nice to punch an enemy back and have them break a box, or push it out of the way. It would also be nice to be able to push or pull boxes, or at least be able to do something more then have them be obstacles. How about a soda machine you can 'activate' just  to give the levels more depth? Beyond consoles, is there really anything you can interact with in the environment?


• (Story is not as deep as other bungie games.)

Screwed here. smile


• (Most more powerful moves aren't that useful compared to basic attacks.)

This is being worked on, right?


• (Low character interaction with environment)

Basically I covered this above.


• (Not much environmental detail.)

We never see a cigarette smoking in an ashtray, a TV left on, or really anything that stands out as such in the current environments.

I think we should get a team on this. wink


• (Repetitious level design)

While the redux doesn't help, the overall level design was darn repetitive. To many of the same room, over and over. That and boxes, way too many boxes, everywhere.

Not really sure what we can do about this short of redecorating or redesigning the levels.


• (AI is poor, and doesn't notice things.)

This has been fixed to a point. The AI still doesn't notice bodies like it did in the alpha builds. Also, how come they can't hear me taunting?


• (Not enough replay value)

Multiplayer will be a big help, that's for sure. But it would be cool to add some sort of achievement system, or unlockables. Maybe make the moves cary over after you beat the game?


• (Not enough objectives besides kill all/get somewhere.)

Again, shy of redesigning the levels, not sure about this one. However, it would be really cool to have more objectives.


-Enough for now, JG.


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#6 24/5/10 5:46

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

TOCS wrote:

Basicly most of the stuff which was shown in the trailers. They never went to the final game, which made people dissapointed. I've seen several reviews stating that the lack of shown content, made it to a 9 instead of ten. Some where also pointing out the empty rooms there was in the game.

There's alot of small things which people whined about, but it would take ages for me to list here.

Hey, hey, list em! Let's see if we can make this complete. Sure we can't fix every problem, but small ones being fixed can have larger results then one might expect.


We have a pretty decent list now, but what are you going to do with it, Jon, that's the trick.

Indeed, well, let's figure out what we CAN do first, then set goals. tongue


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#7 24/5/10 8:05

EdT
Moderator
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 13/1/07
Website

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

From the Profile page for Oni at Feral Interactive: http://www.feralinteractive.com/game/oni

Enemies will communicate, work together, move objects to block your path, hide behind furniture, even behind moving objects. Rather than retreat an overmatched enemy group might call for backup. If you retreat they will hunt you through doorways, up elevators, and into different buildings. Not only are the enemies smart and reactive, so is the world you play in. If the doors aren't open you might break it down or perhaps sneak in through an open passageway. In combat the world around you becomes your weapons as well as your defenses. You'll be able to use objects within your environment to your advantage, such as throwing a chair at an oncoming enemy, or pushing a bookcase over to block a pursuer.

And from the Features page of Oni:

Innovations:

Full-contact action: unified hand-to-hand and weapons combat.
Enormous, realistically-designed, indoor/outdoor 3D environments.
Interpolated character animations, providing immediate-response controls and fluid movement.
Action game with hundreds of unique opponents.
Pre-conditioned, constrained neural net Artificial Intelligence, with variable offensive and defensive postures and aggression levels.
Increasing skill levels; characters develop deadlier techniques as the game progresses.
Features:

Anime-inspired art and setting.
Near-future sci-fi world.
Dark and complex story line.
Cinematic presentation of story.
Comprehensive physics model.

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#8 24/5/10 13:33

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Just going to highlight a few points here.

What about a level with real offices, and cubicles and such?

Airport II. wink

How about a soda machine you can 'activate' just  to give the levels more depth?

This is actually doable. If someone wants to model me a soda machine and can, I'll put it in for fun. big_smile

Most more powerful moves aren't that useful compared to basic attacks.

Actually they are. But which moves are we talking about here?

Enemies will communicate, work together, move objects to block your path, hide behind furniture, even behind moving objects. Rather than retreat an overmatched enemy group might call for backup. If you retreat they will hunt you through doorways, up elevators, and into different buildings.

Enemies will chase you pretty much everywhere. With the improvements to the AI Loser and Neo have made, they are better at ducking behind cover to avoid gunfire.

. In combat the world around you becomes your weapons as well as your defenses. You'll be able to use objects within your environment to your advantage, such as throwing a chair at an oncoming enemy, or pushing a bookcase over to block a pursuer.

Eh, not sure if much can be done here.

Full-contact action: unified hand-to-hand and weapons combat.

True. smile

Enormous, realistically-designed, indoor/outdoor 3D environments.

The levels were big for the time, and they do go outdoors, though not into nature. tongue

Interpolated character animations, providing immediate-response controls and fluid movement.

Very true.

Action game with hundreds of unique opponents.

A little white lie there. wink

Pre-conditioned, constrained neural net Artificial Intelligence, with variable offensive and defensive postures and aggression levels.

The first part is sadly not true. It may be possible to make communicating AI though. The other parts are true though.

Increasing skill levels; characters develop deadlier techniques as the game progresses.

True, I suppose. Brown strikers don't use the specials but red ones do.


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#9 24/5/10 15:49

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

What about a level with real offices, and cubicles and such?

Airport II.

Okay, right, sorry, I haven't played that level in quite a while.


How about a soda machine you can 'activate' just  to give the levels more depth?

This is actually doable. If someone wants to model me a soda machine and can, I'll put it in for fun.

Let's take a cue from Max Payne here, Max Payne had a lot of pointlessly interactive parts to it. Sinks, showers, TVs, cupboards, radios, Soda machines, phones, ect. While a lot of Max Payne 1's environments were pretty static, it helped make them feel less boring.


Most more powerful moves aren't that useful compared to basic attacks.

Actually they are. But which moves are we talking about here?

Well, punch, punch kick, can be spammed the entire game, there are no enemies it's not useful against. Not saying that's what needs to happen, but really, when you have a basic combo to use the entire game, as one review put it, the mastery of the special moves is pretty much just for your own enjoyment.

-JG


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#10 24/5/10 16:12

3llense'g
Member
From: Europe, Hungary, Budapest
Registered: 5/7/09

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Jon God wrote:

Let's take a cue from Max Payne here, Max Payne had a lot of pointlessly interactive parts to it. Sinks, showers, TVs, cupboards, radios, Soda machines, phones, ect. While a lot of Max Payne 1's environments were pretty static, it helped make them feel less boring.

I actually I was thinking Max Payne at the cutscene part. I'm pretty sure that game doesn't have talking anims either. smile The TV broadcasts were epic. "M'lady." "M'lord." "M'lady!" big_smile

As for level design: The game environments are supposed to be realistic, yet I don't recall a single kitchen or bathroom in any level (mostly workplaces, factories, etc). Typical new-age architectural fail.

Last edited by 3llense'g (24/5/10 16:13)


You can call me 3llen. It's shorter and simpler. wink

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#11 24/5/10 17:06

myplea1
Member
From: Ottawa,Canada
Registered: 25/5/09

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Jon God wrote:

• (Not enough replay value)

Multiplayer will be a big help, that's for sure. But it would be cool to add some sort of achievement system, or unlockables. Maybe make the moves cary over after you beat the game?

I must say I disagree with this one. Oni has been the one game that I stay constant to.
A lot of other games that I play get quite boring and I never touch them again,
but Oni is good anytime to just play and enjoy. I've always liked playing Oni to see just
how much better I can get at it.

Of course Multiplayer will make the replaying value much more substantial,
it is quite considerable already.


Awol

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#12 24/5/10 17:09

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

I like the idea of achievements and unlockables, I had never considered that option... anyone else ever had a shot at this in the past?


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#13 24/5/10 17:52

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

3llense'g wrote:

As for level design: The game environments are supposed to be realistic, yet I don't recall a single kitchen or bathroom in any level (mostly workplaces, factories, etc). Typical new-age architectural fail.

Hardy LeBel wrote:

[...]early versions of the story called for certain locations and (before they knew any better) the architects went ahead and modelled them as "real" spaces (you shoulda seen the fully modelled toilets...very impresisve!). We basically had to go back into every level of the game and completely rip it apart to support the gameplay we were going for or else build them new from scratch.

------------------------------

Jon God wrote:

Well, punch, punch kick, can be spammed the entire game, there are no enemies it's not useful against.

If the game had a parry/counterattack system, we could increase the chance of parries for stronger enemies when they have basic combos thrown at them.  The way things work now, enemies do seem to learn your moves so you can't spam just one attack and expect it to stay 100% effective, but there's not much of a downside if your attack doesn't work; it just gets blocked or dodged.  This way there would be consequences that would force you to mix things up.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#14 24/5/10 19:14

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

I must say I disagree with this one. Oni has been the one game that I stay constant to.
A lot of other games that I play get quite boring and I never touch them again,
but Oni is good anytime to just play and enjoy. I've always liked playing Oni to see just
how much better I can get at it.

I respect your opinion, and I can understand it to a point, but, as much as I love Oni, I usually will play it through, then not touch it for months then come back and play through it again. For me there is no incentive to do anything more than that.

To the people I've talked to that enjoyed the game, they've echoed my comments, saying they loved it, but after they beat it, they just never came back.


If the game had a parry/counterattack system, we could increase the chance of parries for stronger enemies when they have basic combos thrown at them.  The way things work now, enemies do seem to learn your moves so you can't spam just one attack and expect it to stay 100% effective, but there's not much of a downside if your attack doesn't work; it just gets blocked or dodged.  This way there would be consequences that would force you to mix things up.

Sounds like it'd be worth a try for sure.


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#15 24/5/10 20:51

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Thanks for starting this topic up. I suppose once we've finished it we may as well have another topic for things people particularly like, and perhaps one for things people would like to see added?

Jon God wrote:
myplea1 wrote:

I must say I disagree with this one. Oni has been the one game that I stay constant to. ...

I respect your opinion, and I can understand it to a point, but, as much as I love Oni, I usually will play it through, then not touch it for months then come back and play through it again. For me there is no incentive to do anything more than that.

I'm definitely in the same boat as myplea1. After I beat it, I started wanting to beat it in different ways, and eventually just to explore the possible techniques, and I've never gotten tired of doing this.

I do have one friend who played through it once and doesn't understand why I like to keep playing it, though. Heh.

As far as my list, from both the past and the present:

gameplay/mechanics:
- no multiplayer
- I had trouble dashing at first
- laser traps are tedious when you do them right and annoying when you mess them up
- the blocks in the acid you jump across are tedious when you do them right and annoying when you mess them up
- I had trouble performing the special moves for a while
- I had trouble dealing with the autopistol's recoil for a while
- the PSP is dumb
- when "crouchwalking", one often can't change direction without first moving in another direction or standing
- dashes/runs are a little slow to start up
- difficulty doesn't go high enough
- the MB, SBG, and VDG are boring when you try to use them effectively
- overpower mode seems to have very few useful applications
- Mukade's teleportation is annoying
- situations where you can't avoid taking lots of damage no matter how well you try are frustrating until you figure that out/come to terms with it
- combos seem to be very limited, with Konoko at least
- game speed/maximum APM is a bit low
- after getting knocked down, characters can get back up again before their attacker has much of a chance to press the advantage
- after getting knocked down, the original AI doesn't get back up again quickly-enough
- auto-aim is annoying
- many of Konoko's moves seem useless, but I may just not have found uses for them yet

plot/flavor:
- dialogue is poorly written and poorly acted, IMO
- yelling the name of a move while you do it is dumb
- "professional wrestling"-style moves are dumb
- the weakness of the guns is very unrealistic, which hurts the immersiveness of the game
- holding a single pistol with just one hand looks silly
- it's very difficult to believe that the ballistic ammo magically turns into bullets or grenades or rockets or mercury instantly when you put it into a gun
- Konoko, as a character, isn't focused-on enough to make me understand her, but is focused-on enough that I want to
- the anime art is very inconsistent in how it portrays everything

other:
- unskippable cutscenes are bad
- can't turn off the music while keeping the sound effects on
- some of the save points are too far apart

Last edited by Paff (24/5/10 20:57)

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#16 24/5/10 21:14

TheCreature
Member
From: Michigan, USA
Registered: 15/12/09

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

So... what?  Now we know most of the problems, how do we start fixing them?

Honestly, to me, it sounds like all these changes stacked together means we need a different game engine, or a major rewriting of the existing one.  Normally, I'd say finding a new engine might be easier, but right now I can't think of any that are equal to Oni in combat, which would be a step backwards.


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#17 24/5/10 21:51

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

gameplay/mechanics:
- no multiplayer

Yup.

- I had trouble dashing at first

In the next AE there will be an option for more visual feedback if you are dashing.

- laser traps are tedious when you do them right and annoying when you mess them up

Granted, but many of them can be skipped, if they are armed with plasma gun turrets. Just strafe left\right.

- the blocks in the acid you jump across are tedious when you do them right and annoying when you mess them up

I'm pretty sure you can skip those blocks.

- I had trouble performing the special moves for a while

Agreed, but practice makes perfect. That's why they are special. tongue Any fighting game is like this, it comes with the territory...

- I had trouble dealing with the autopistol's recoil for a while

Another newbie vs vet thing. Vet knows that you either need to fire slower, get in close, or pull down HARD. Newb doesn't. I don't quite see that as a bad thing, as the game even hints at it.

- the PSP is dumb

I agree, the DS is better.

Oh wait, the gun. Yeah, it is pretty silly.

- when "crouchwalking", one often can't change direction without first moving in another direction or standing

Bugs make me sad. sad

- dashes/runs are a little slow to start up

Hint, you can double tap during any move, and when you get out of said move you will dash. smile

- difficulty doesn't go high enough

Orly. If you want it harder than it already is I have a special mod just for you. smile

- the MB, SBG, and VDG are boring when you try to use them effectively

Because they are too effective. Other topic though. smile

- overpower mode seems to have very few useful applications

Other than being able to tank damage and do extra melee damage? You get an additional 200 hit points tacked on at full overpower. It is a bit situational though.

- Mukade's teleportation is annoying

It is the only thing that makes him different from a normal ninja though, along with the Devil Star, which is 10 times more annoying in my opinion.

- situations where you can't avoid taking lots of damage no matter how well you try are frustrating until you figure that out/come to terms with it

There is no part in the game where this is true. There is a guy who has done a 0 damage run of Oni, look him up on Youtube sometime.

Any examples of impossible situations you can think of off hand?

- combos seem to be very limited, with Konoko at least

I've never had that problem. You can string any number of moves together and call it a combo. smile

- game speed/maximum APM is a bit low

APM?

- after getting knocked down, characters can get back up again before their attacker has much of a chance to press the advantage

Getting stuck on the ground sucks. Unless you wanted to make the player able to get up quicker than everyone else, people will get very frustrated.

- after getting knocked down, the original AI doesn't get back up again quickly-enough

fixed. wink

- auto-aim is annoying

It is turnoffable, if I remember correctly. Don't remember the BSL command.

- many of Konoko's smile  moves seem useless, but I may just not have found uses for them yet

You are referring to the Crescent Moon Kick, correct? And what else?

plot/flavor:
- dialogue is poorly written and poorly acted, IMO

K.

- yelling the name of a move while you do it is dumb

Comes with the genre. I can't think of a quick way to turn them off at the moment.

- "professional wrestling"-style moves are dumb

I'm sorry. Variety is good, IMO.

- the weakness of the guns is very unrealistic, which hurts the immersiveness of the game

I'll add that to my uber annoying tough mod. smile

- holding a single pistol with just one hand looks silly

I'm sorry.

- it's very difficult to believe that the ballistic ammo magically turns into bullets or grenades or rockets or mercury instantly when you put it into a gun

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave
You seem to have a low http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M … fDisbelief

- Konoko, as a character, isn't focused-on enough to make me understand her, but is focused-on enough that I want to

*shrug*

- the anime art is very inconsistent in how it portrays everything

Because it was drawn by at least two different artists. hmm


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#18 24/5/10 22:26

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Gumby wrote:

- I had trouble dashing at first

In the next AE there will be an option for more visual feedback if you are dashing.

Ah, I meant I had trouble pressing the W key twice quickly-enough. (Yes, I was that bad. tongue )

Gumby wrote:

- laser traps are tedious when you do them right and annoying when you mess them up

Granted, but many of them can be skipped, if they are armed with plasma gun turrets. Just strafe left\right.

Aye, but until I figured that out, it was annoying. And the remaining laser traps continue to be, although it looks like some people have figured out how to dodge the MB laser traps, so I might have to try it.

Gumby wrote:

- the blocks in the acid you jump across are tedious when you do them right and annoying when you mess them up

I'm pretty sure you can skip those blocks.

You can. But it was annoying until I figured that out.

Gumby wrote:

- I had trouble performing the special moves for a while

Agreed, but practice makes perfect. That's why they are special. tongue Any fighting game is like this, it comes with the territory...

Yeah, it's not necessarily bad in the long run, but as someone who hadn't played any fighting games before Oni, it was frustrating.

Gumby wrote:

- I had trouble dealing with the autopistol's recoil for a while

Another newbie vs vet thing. Vet knows that you either need to fire slower, get in close, or pull down HARD. Newb doesn't. I don't quite see that as a bad thing, as the game even hints at it.

Yeah, this one is probably a good thing in the long run. But I wanted to be comprehensive and list everything that bothered me, and the recoil did for a bit.

Gumby wrote:

- dashes/runs are a little slow to start up

Hint, you can double tap during any move, and when you get out of said move you will dash. smile

Indeed. But the start of the dash animation, and the starts of the run animations, take a while.

Gumby wrote:

- difficulty doesn't go high enough

Orly. If you want it harder than it already is I have a special mod just for you. smile

I'm interested. smile

Gumby wrote:

- the MB, SBG, and VDG are boring when you try to use them effectively

Because they are too effective. Other topic though. smile

I'm not so sure it's that as much as they're very simple to use compared to the other guns. They're just point and click (or just click in the case of the VDG), and the enemy dies/is helpless. Most of the other guns are much more interesting to actually aim and fire, or have more interesting tactical aspects.

Gumby wrote:

- overpower mode seems to have very few useful applications

Other than being able to tank damage and do extra melee damage? You get an additional 200 hit points tacked on at full overpower. It is a bit situational though.

It seems like in most cases where you could use overpower (aside from absorbing damage), you would take less than a hypo's worth of damage without it. As far as absorbing damage, I prefer to try not to get hit than to plan to absorb lots of it; but that's probably just personal preference.

Gumby wrote:

- situations where you can't avoid taking lots of damage no matter how well you try are frustrating until you figure that out/come to terms with it

There is no part in the game where this is true. There is a guy who has done a 0 damage run of Oni, look him up on Youtube sometime.

Any examples of impossible situations you can think of off hand?

Part of this is probably just me putting restrictions on myself, or being bad back in the day. I remember I used to get annoyed at how much damage I'd take from blackadders, and I still take a fair amount from them when I rush them head on.

I imagine in order to not take any damage beating Oni, there would be many parts that you have to play in one particular way?

Gumby wrote:

- combos seem to be very limited, with Konoko at least

I've never had that problem. You can string any number of moves together and call it a combo. smile

By "combos", I mean strings of attacks that cannot be avoided. You can get lots of consecutive hits in that don't actually "combo", just because the AI is bad at blocking/dodging/counterattacking. True "combos" seem to be very limited in Oni.

Gumby wrote:

- game speed/maximum APM is a bit low

APM?

Actions Per Minute. The frequency at which you're pressing keys, basically. In Oni there's a lot of waiting time either while running or while performing slow moves. Part of this is just that Melee has turned me into a speed junkie, though.

Gumby wrote:

- after getting knocked down, characters can get back up again before their attacker has much of a chance to press the advantage

Getting stuck on the ground sucks. Unless you wanted to make the player able to get up quicker than everyone else, people will get very frustrated.

That makes sense. I definitely think in the long run it'd be better to be stuck on the ground longer in multiplayer though, except maybe in teams matches. It's tough to call without having multiplayer.

Gumby wrote:

- auto-aim is annoying

It is turnoffable, if I remember correctly. Don't remember the BSL command.

I think it's definitely worth considering turning it off for multiplayer, and I guess I'll have to look into making a mod that does it in singleplayer.

Gumby wrote:

- many of Konoko's smile  moves seem useless, but I may just not have found uses for them yet

You are referring to the Crescent Moon Kick, correct? And what else?

Neutral kick seems strictly worse than forward kick. Haymaker seems stricly worse (against the AI) than punch to forward kick. Most of Konoko's crouch moves seem strictly worse than other options against the AI. Konoko's sideways and backwards punches/kicks seem to be blockable with a guaranteed counterattack when you have no other options, and strictly worse than forward kick when you can forward kick instead. Sledgehammer kick and the stunning kick seem too slow, but I haven't tried them enough yet. The from-behind punch throw is basically equivalent to the backbreaker, but does less damage. The backwards aerial attacks seem to be useless, but I haven't tried them enough yet. Etc.

Gumby wrote:

- yelling the name of a move while you do it is dumb

Comes with the genre. I can't think of a quick way to turn them off at the moment.

K. (Also, as Iritscen pointed out in the other thread, Oni is definitely trying to be much more realistic/serious than other fighting games, and I think that makes the difference in this case.)

Gumby wrote:

- the weakness of the guns is very unrealistic, which hurts the immersiveness of the game

I'll add that to my uber annoying tough mod. smile

K. Although, again, my only problem with it is that it makes it less realistic/immersive, so I don't think it'll be of benefit to your mod unless you're trying to make the mod realistic/immersive. (I don't know if you are, but if you're not, I don't think it'll matter much aside from helping the difficulty.)

Gumby wrote:

- it's very difficult to believe that the ballistic ammo magically turns into bullets or grenades or rockets or mercury instantly when you put it into a gun

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave
You seem to have a low http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M … fDisbelief

Yep. tongue

Gumby wrote:

- the anime art is very inconsistent in how it portrays everything

Because it was drawn by at least two different artists. hmm

Huh. Didn't know that.

Last edited by Paff (24/5/10 22:33)

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#19 24/5/10 23:08

Charles
Member
Registered: 16/2/09

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Level design was superb, but then again I'm the kind of person who likes to walk around and look up at buildings all the time. It's not typical game design and takes some getting used to.

The biggest "problem" for people, I think, were the complex fighting mechanics. Most of the moves aren't unlocked until later in the game and, if you're not patient, you're not going to be able to really explore the fighting right away. Why handicap the player from doing cool stuff in the first half of the game?

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#20 25/5/10 0:47

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

I imagine in order to not take any damage beating Oni, there would be many parts that you have to play in one particular way?

Of course. You generally have to be sneaky and take out enemies individually or sneak around them, and avoid group fights.

Neutral kick seems strictly worse than forward kick.

Neutral kick isn't meant to be used standalone. It has the advantage of leading to both the spinning sidekick and the crescent moon kick. If you add up the damages (if you hit with all three kicks) you will be doing more than most things you can combo out of a forward kick. However, comboing with forward kick (typically into another forward kick or forward punch) has the advantage of knocking the enemy down (useful if you want to get away) and a guaranteed second hit if you connect with the first, due to the slight stunning effect it has.

Each type of attack is good in its own situation. Not every attack is going to be equal with every other, or it would be kind of boring. You wouldn't have to decide what move to use next, just mindlessly spam.

Haymaker seems stricly worse (against the AI) than punch to forward kick.

Haymaker is a quick and easy move you can pull off by spamming the punch button. P->FwKick at least requires a bit of imagination and timing.

Most of Konoko's crouch moves seem strictly worse than other options against the AI.

Crouching already gives you a defensive advantage in blocking low moves and ducking under many higher moves. Plus, many of the crouch attacks can only be blocked if you are crouching yourself.

Konoko's sideways and backwards punches/kicks seem to be blockable with a guaranteed counterattack when you have no other options, and strictly worse than forward kick when you can forward kick instead.

Most of the directional attacks are just there for completeness. They aren't meant for attacking much, just defending your flanks. Back attacks would be useful if you noticed someone trying to sneak up on you. Really though, have you ever seen someone go up to someone in a fight, turn around, and then try to kick them like a donkey? smile

I do recommend you try punch, left+punch, punch though.

Sledgehammer kick and the stunning kick seem too slow, but I haven't tried them enough yet.

Sledgehammer kick is the most powerful attack Konoko has in the beginning of the game, doing twice as much damage as most other attacks. It is high risk, high reward. If you count in the first two punches, it is the most powerful built in combo\move in the game, just barely edging out the triple kick combo.

I agree, stunning kick is too hard to hit with. : /

The from-behind punch throw is basically equivalent to the backbreaker, but does less damage. The backwards aerial attacks seem to be useless, but I haven't tried them enough yet. Etc.

I agree that throw is kind of weak, the only advantage it seems to have is that it can damage others and doesn't leave you as vulnerable during/after.

See above on the backwards aerial attacks. Not every attack is going to be useful.

Charles wrote:

Why handicap the player from doing cool stuff in the first half of the game?

Which is why we have the unlock all moves mod. smile


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#21 25/5/10 5:21

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

You seem to be very pessimistic about the moveset, Paff.  I think practically all the moves discussed are useful, and they're even more useful when you use them all because it keeps the AI guessing.  I use lots of crouch attacks, and I find the side and backward attacks to be more likely to land than the forward attacks.  As Gumby said, the directional attacks are mainly for quick defense when fighting against multiple enemies, and they're effective in that way.  The running backwards attacks are useful for backing out of being cornered while also attacking in the direction you're escaping.

I do, however, find it annoying that the from-behind piledriver (standing forward-punch) is weaker than the backbreaker (standing forward-kick).  They're equally hard to pull off so they should do equal damage.

Really though, have you ever seen someone go up to someone in a fight, turn around, and then try to kick them like a donkey?

Sure, that's called a donkey kick, a standard martial arts move.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#22 25/5/10 14:06

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Just cause you've never seen someone pull off a certain move doesnt mean it's irrealistic... it's physically possible to kick backwards, so why wouldn't you be able to do it ingame? Anyways, realistic or not, I find it quite useful sometimes smile

Have you ever seen someone jump in the air, do a tirple flip, then land on the ground, same level you started on? Not very often I'd imagine.... maybe we should take that move out then?


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#23 25/5/10 17:33

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 17/10/08

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Meh the story took a really bad swing. You felt like a cop for only...5 levels? then u feel like a criminal and well i was expecting a longer game.


Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!

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#24 25/5/10 18:59

SCV
Member
From: Malaysia, Seremban
Registered: 23/5/10

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

oxe161 wrote:

Meh the story took a really bad swing. You felt like a cop for only...5 levels? then u feel like a criminal and well i was expecting a longer game.

From Werehouse, Company, Lab, Airport terminal, Airport werehouse till TFTC HQ. It does feel short even u play slow like a snail.

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#25 25/5/10 20:49

TheCreature
Member
From: Michigan, USA
Registered: 15/12/09

Re: What disappointed people about Oni?

Here's one I was kinda disappointed in:  The combos with movement in them, (Willow Kick, Crescent moon, etc.) seem almost impossible to do, requiring perfect timing to pull off.  Does anyone else have these problems, or am I just really bad at fighting?


The artist must bow to the monster of his own imagination.  Promoting the IRC and stuff for the RP: Rules Dice Map and RP

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