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#26 10/5/10 2:10

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

It seems that this discussion has wound down a bit. I think we're approaching the core of the issue, so I'd like to continue discussing it, if everyone else is still willing: tongue

Gumby:
1. Why do you think the guns need to be evenly balanced in singleplayer?
2. How does your reasoning fit in with the fact that the player never needs to use guns in singleplayer, and as such can simply use whichever gun they feel like, regardless of how good it is compared to the other guns?

Iritscen:
1. What are your thoughts on having different guns available on different multiplayer maps in order to deal with multiplayer gun balance issues?
2. What are your thoughts on waiting to make changes (such as removing cooldown cancelling) that are being made for the purpose of improving multiplayer balance until we have multiplayer available?

Last edited by Paff (10/5/10 2:11)

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#27 10/5/10 5:16

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

1. Although I do think mappers will need to learn how to create maps where one weapon doesn't overpower the others and ruin the fun, I think we have an initial responsibility to make the weapons more balanced, because there's only so much mappers can do.  Weapons like the plasma rifle and PSP are currently almost useless.  While it's true that mappers can say "Well, I know the SBG is way better than these other weapons, so I'll just never put them in the same map", I think it's unfair to expect them to follow such rules of exclusion.  Speaking personally, I would definitely prefer to play a game where all kinds of weapons were in use, and they were fairly balanced, rather than an SBG map here and a plasma rifle map there.

P.S.: I've seen a couple of you mention that maps of different sizes would be appropriate for specific weapons, but I think that's also unfairly limiting mappers.  I would like to be able to make maps with areas of different sizes, not all small rooms or all large spaces, and not to limit players to what weapons I think they should use for each space.

2. I do think it's useful to experiment now with changing anything that we think is a balance issue so we're better prepared when MP becomes possible, but usually all the mods we make are optional, so probably we just need to continue to operate that way and make sure that any balancing changes are in a separate mod that people can turn on or off.  Again, the cooldown fix required a code patch, so I don't think anyone considered going to the extra effort to make it optional, but if the Daodan guys want to do it in Windows, it's their call.


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#28 10/5/10 9:20

Dirk Gently
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From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I came into this community not knowing anything about modding Oni. I absolutely love the game and want to see what I can do about keeping the community of this game alive, even if that is just posting on these boards. What I have spent about 5-6 years on previously was Halo 1 on Mac. I was one of the big modders back in the day that Halo was at its prime. Halo is both a single player and multiplayer game. There is much that can be done with singleplayer, but the real meat of modding halo came from the multiplayer experience, and being able to share that mod with others and play and have a fun time. As was pointed out from my first post in this thread by Paff, the majority of people have little experience in balancing for a multiplayer gaming experience with Oni because there IS no multiplayer experience for this game. We are all going to go through this and learn together.

One thing I feel like I should bring up about this whole thing is what you want the player to do. I was really taken in by the game Mirror's Edge because of the parallels I drew with the gameplay style from Oni. The only issue I had with this game was how bad the transition between hand-to-hand and gun combat was in that game. You could be flying along a roof-top, and if you picked up a gun it seemed to just kill the flow of the whole game. Oni does not have that problem because you can holster your weapon and continue to run/fight/whatever without it weighing you down. Now, if you try to apply the same rules in the multiplayer part of Oni as the singleplayer has, you are going to hit some MAJOR hazards of gameplay. For example, guns will dominate any game. Guns are ranged and unless you have narrow space to move around, then you are going to be able to use weaponry at all time. This causes a rift in gameplay because you will have people picked off before they can even land a single punch on someone.

To be honest, the only way to decide these things are to do play tests with a number of people and gather feedback, tweak the weapons and environment, then repeat until nobody is having an issue with the map that is not a personal issue.

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#29 10/5/10 13:59

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

On Mirror's Edge:
It was done like that on purpose. You can still run from rooftop to rooftop with a pistol, but the rifles basically ground you. They didn't want to focus of the game to be combat.


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#30 10/5/10 14:19

Dirk Gently
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From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

That was sorta my point, guns in Oni create such a gameplay rift that it is almost unfair if you are attacking someone without a weapon. something that I think should be removed/reduced in multiplayer guns is the sticky aiming that will lock onto people. This should level the playing field a lot for gameplay.

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#31 10/5/10 15:28

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Paff wrote:

It seems that this discussion has wound down a bit. I think we're approaching the core of the issue, so I'd like to continue discussing it, if everyone else is still willing: tongue

Gumby:
1. Why do you think the guns need to be evenly balanced in singleplayer?
2. How does your reasoning fit in with the fact that the player never needs to use guns in singleplayer, and as such can simply use whichever gun they feel like, regardless of how good it is compared to the other guns?

Iritscen:
1. What are your thoughts on having different guns available on different multiplayer maps in order to deal with multiplayer gun balance issues?
2. What are your thoughts on waiting to make changes (such as removing cooldown cancelling) that are being made for the purpose of improving multiplayer balance until we have multiplayer available?


Did anyone read my post? ^_^


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#32 10/5/10 17:03

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I'll go ahead and answer the question #1 for Gumby as well.  If guns were better-balanced in SP mode, I think the game would be more fun because you'd enjoy more of the variety in the weapons.  Also, the AI wouldn't be a pain with certain weapons (SBG, PSP) and a pushover with others (plasma rifle).  What's not to like about balancing, seriously?  Unless you're just a purist who doesn't think Oni can be improved upon.

I also don't think we need to be concerned about weapons dominating MP.  People play Oni for the melee, not the weapons.  They'll find ways to close in on each other, perhaps while firing their own weapon, and many fights will end in melee.  Again, assuming we can nerf the SBG a bit so it doesn't make players into one-man armies.

But we probably do need to start differentiating between tweaks planned for MP and tweaks to SP, and of course SP tweaks will always be optional if they come in the form of mod packages.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#33 10/5/10 20:00

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I'd like to hear from Gumby on this, so I'll post it again to keep it from getting lost in the shuffle:

Gumby:
1. Why do you think the guns need to be evenly balanced in singleplayer?
2. How does your reasoning fit in with the fact that the player never needs to use guns in singleplayer, and as such can simply use whichever gun they feel like, regardless of how good it is compared to the other guns?

Jon God:
Sorry. I did read your post, but I mostly agree with you and wanted to keep the conversation more directly on understanding why Gumby and Iritscen want to remove cooldown cancelling, so I didn't respond to it. I'll go ahead and respond now though:

I think there's a good chance that we can use the game setup to manage the gun balance instead of actually making the guns equally powerful. By that I mean having different guns available on different maps, or giving you less ammo if you choose to use a better gun, or something along those lines. Also, if we limit ballistic ammo enough, people will periodically abandon their SBGs/MBs in favor of energy weapons.

Iritscen:
On your multiplayer balance thoughts, I agree partly. I think "responsibility" is an awfully strong term to use, but having as wide a variety of guns as possible used on each multiplayer map would be pretty cool. Also, is it possible to have some sort of "money" system, like in CounterStrike, where different guns/powerups cost different amounts? That'd be an amazing tool for balance.

Iritscen wrote:

2. I do think it's useful to experiment now with changing anything that we think is a balance issue so we're better prepared when MP becomes possible, but usually all the mods we make are optional, so probably we just need to continue to operate that way and make sure that any balancing changes are in a separate mod that people can turn on or off.  Again, the cooldown fix required a code patch, so I don't think anyone considered going to the extra effort to make it optional, but if the Daodan guys want to do it in Windows, it's their call.

So the removal of cooldown cancelling is intended to be an experiment?

Iritscen wrote:

If guns were better-balanced in SP mode, I think the game would be more fun because you'd enjoy more of the variety in the weapons.

How/why? I don't understand why someone would use only the best guns in Oni's singleplayer instead of just using whichever gun they feel like using.

Iritscen wrote:

Also, the AI wouldn't be a pain with certain weapons (SBG, PSP) and a pushover with others (plasma rifle).

I don't see a problem with this. (Actually, if anything, it would mean that plasma rifles need a buff to make sure the AI is always a pain, not SBGs needing a nerf. tongue) But honestly, I don't see what's wrong with different enemies not being equally difficult.

Iritscen wrote:

What's not to like about balancing, seriously?

In a general sense, nothing. However, in the case of balancing the guns in singleplayer, it also accomplishes nothing (as far as I can see). And in this particular case, it's accomplishing that nothing by simplifying the game mechanics, which I think is bad.

Dirk Gently:
I think limiting the ammo supply to the point where you run out of ammo before you kill your opponent enough times to win the game will take care of guns dominating in MP.

Dirk Gently wrote:

To be honest, the only way to decide these things are to do play tests with a number of people and gather feedback, tweak the weapons and environment, then repeat until nobody is having an issue with the map that is not a personal issue.

I definitely agree with this.

(Also, I've found that the auto lock-on feature seems to prevent me from being physically able to properly lead my targets, so it might actually make the guns worse, heh.)

Last edited by Paff (10/5/10 20:03)

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#34 10/5/10 20:21

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Paff wrote:

Also, is it possible to have some sort of "money" system, like in CounterStrike, where different guns/powerups cost different amounts? That'd be an amazing tool for balance.

Hmm, hold on a moment.  It seems you're assuming that weapons will be chosen at the beginning of the match, but that hasn't been decided yet.  For instance, I imagined weapons just being placed in the map.  You spawn with the standard pistol and pick up whatever you can find after that.  Oni isn't like class-based games, there aren't weapons designed to go with certain specialized characters.

So the removal of cooldown cancelling is intended to be an experiment?

Haven't we talked enough about that? tongue

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

If guns were better-balanced in SP mode, I think the game would be more fun because you'd enjoy more of the variety in the weapons.

How/why? I don't understand why someone would use only the best guns in Oni's singleplayer instead of just using whichever gun they feel like using.

I don't know about you, but I pick up weapons that are going to give me the best chance of surviving.  Isn't that how most people play games?

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

Also, the AI wouldn't be a pain with certain weapons (SBG, PSP) and a pushover with others (plasma rifle).

I don't see a problem with this. (Actually, if anything, it would mean that plasma rifles need a buff to make sure the AI is always a pain, not SBGs needing a nerf. tongue) But honestly, I don't see what's wrong with different enemies not being equally difficult.

Plasma rifles *do* need a buff; we're working on one now.  And don't conflate difficulty with fairness.  An AI with the SBG isn't difficult, it's frustrating; there's a big difference.

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

What's not to like about balancing, seriously?

In a general sense, nothing. However, in the case of balancing the guns in singleplayer, it also accomplishes nothing (as far as I can see). And in this particular case, it's accomplishing that nothing by simplifying the game mechanics, which I think is bad.

I think it's fair to say we'll never see eye to eye on this point, if you don't see the appeal of balance.  But you still can't object to optional gameplay mods, right?

I think limiting the ammo supply to the point where you run out of ammo before you kill your opponent enough times to win the game will take care of guns dominating in MP.

Yes, that was the other point I was going to make about why weapons won't dominate MP.  Responsible mappers won't overload the map with ammo.


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#35 10/5/10 20:49

TheCreature
Member
From: Michigan, USA
Registered: 15/12/09

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I agree with Iritscen.  Balancing weapons wouldn't make one weapon the "Best gun" in Oni.

Example:  I'd rather use an SBG or SCRAM against groups of opponents, rather than a Mercury Bow.  On the other hand, if I'm facing a single, powerful, opponent, I'd want the Mercury Bow.  But if the opponent isn't that powerful, I'd probably want an Enforcer or plasma rifle, so I have more ammo for later.


The artist must bow to the monster of his own imagination.  Promoting the IRC and stuff for the RP: Rules Dice Map and RP

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#36 10/5/10 21:05

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Oni isn't like class-based games, there aren't weapons designed to go with certain specialized characters.

Sure it can be, if we want. smile

Furies \ FemCop \ Konoko
Strikers \ TCTF \ Muro
Ninjas \ Mukade
Tankers
Elite \ TCTF SWAT \ Barabus
Snipers

My point being, I'd love to have a team\class based mode where kills translate to new weapons (some team specific possibly). smile

Wayy wayy in the future though. I'm surprised we are even talking about MP balance without having MP yet. smile


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#37 10/5/10 22:06

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Gumby: Do you still want to discuss our disagreements? If so, please let me know the answers to the questions I left for you in my last post?

The Creature wrote:

Balancing weapons wouldn't make one weapon the "Best gun" in Oni.

I'm not sure what point you're making - isn't that the very definition of balance here? (That is, wouldn't "balancing the weapons" literally mean making sure that there isn't one "best gun"?)

Iritscen wrote:

Hmm, hold on a moment.  It seems you're assuming that weapons will be chosen at the beginning of the match, but that hasn't been decided yet.  For instance, I imagined weapons just being placed in the map.  You spawn with the standard pistol and pick up whatever you can find after that.  Oni isn't like class-based games, there aren't weapons designed to go with certain specialized characters.

Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not assuming anything, but as far as I know choosing your gun at the start of a match/round is a possibility. And if it would give us extremely powerful, dynamic control over balance, it'd be a very attractive option.

(Also, where'd the class-based bit come from? Team Fortress 2 or something? I've only ever played that game once, and I didn't like it, heh.)

Iritscen wrote:

So the removal of cooldown cancelling is intended to be an experiment?

Haven't we talked enough about that? tongue

I still don't know what your reasoning is for removing it, and that was the whole point behind this thread. tongue

I asked you what your reasoning was, and you made it sound like you meant for it to help with multiplayer balance.

We discussed multiplayer balance further, and you agreed that we can't balance multiplayer until we have multiplayer available.

I asked you if you thought we should wait to make changes for the sake of balancing multiplayer until we have multiplayer, and you said it's useful to experiment now and that you hadn't thought to go through all the work of making cooldown cancelling optional on the Mac side.

I wasn't sure exactly what you meant, so I asked you if that meant you removed cooldown cancelling as an experiment, and I'm still curious to know the answer. tongue

Iritscen wrote:

I don't know about you, but I pick up weapons that are going to give me the best chance of surviving.  Isn't that how most people play games?

I tend do the same thing, but it only affects matters when my chances of surviving are not 100%, and my chances of surviving are 100% in singleplayer Oni. tongue I would expect that most people would do the same as me in this case, but I could be wrong.

Iritscen wrote:
Paff wrote:

I don't see a problem with this. (Actually, if anything, it would mean that plasma rifles need a buff to make sure the AI is always a pain, not SBGs needing a nerf. tongue) But honestly, I don't see what's wrong with different enemies not being equally difficult.

Plasma rifles *do* need a buff; we're working on one now.  And don't conflate difficulty with fairness.  An AI with the SBG isn't difficult, it's frustrating; there's a big difference.

Wait, how does fairness come into play here, and how have I conflated the two?

I agree that enemies with the SBG can be annoying, but there are always different tactics you can use to engage them to avoid getting shot/juggled, so it strikes me as an incredibly minor problem.

Iritscen wrote:
Paff wrote:

In a general sense, nothing. However, in the case of balancing the guns in singleplayer, it also accomplishes nothing (as far as I can see). And in this particular case, it's accomplishing that nothing by simplifying the game mechanics, which I think is bad.

I think it's fair to say we'll never see eye to eye on this point, if you don't see the appeal of balance.  But you still can't object to optional gameplay mods, right?

As far as seeing eye to eye, I'm hoping that by discussing the appeal of singleplayer balance in Oni (above) we'll be able to reach some kind of closure/resolution at least, and it's possible that you'll convince me.

In terms of objecting to optional gameplay mods, that's mostly correct. However, this particular change will still affect me if it becomes the multiplayer norm, and it'll still affect any Mac-only people who feel the same way as me about these types of things.

Last edited by Paff (11/5/10 0:07)

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#38 11/5/10 1:41

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

How about I put up a poll? (or you can put up a poll tongue)

There's not much I can say that hasn't been said already. I'm a big supporter of allowing people to play (especially in SP) as they like. If\when multiplayer comes around, find a server that has the cooldown exploit enabled.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#39 11/5/10 5:14

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Paff wrote:

I'm not assuming anything, but as far as I know choosing your gun at the start of a match/round is a possibility. And if it would give us extremely powerful, dynamic control over balance, it'd be a very attractive option.

I'm not sure it's preferable to just starting people with a standard weapon.  Perhaps in a team-based siege mode it would make the most sense to start players with specific weapons.  In a free-for-all, though, it seems safer to just give everyone the Campbell Equalizer and let them scramble for a gun.  Then we don't need to decide on anything like how many "points" you need for a better weapon, which would open the door for players to complain about the point system.  It would also place less emphasis on weapons, which I think is desirable for Oni, compared to the FPSes that use that system.

(Also, where'd the class-based bit come from? Team Fortress 2 or something? I've only ever played that game once, and I didn't like it, heh.)

Dunno, I was thinking of a class-based game I've played where you choose your weapon beforehand.  To me, that's an unusual setup, and the norm is just picking up weapons after spawning.  But I don't play many games these days, so I don't know what's more common.

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

So the removal of cooldown cancelling is intended to be an experiment?

Haven't we talked enough about that? tongue

I still don't know what your reasoning is for removing it, and that was the whole point behind this thread. tongue

AFAIK, the reason it was removed was because it's a bug.  If there's more of a reason than that, you have to ask Gumby and EdT.

I did agree that it makes sense to make it optional, but I also said repeatedly that we can't currently do that on the Mac.

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

I don't know about you, but I pick up weapons that are going to give me the best chance of surviving.  Isn't that how most people play games?

I tend do the same thing, but it only affects matters when my chances of surviving are not 100%, and my chances of surviving are 100% in singleplayer Oni. tongue

Then it sounds like you need to turn up the difficulty tongue  If you aren't being challenged when playing the game, then you're in no position whatsoever to speak about balance or fairness.

Paff wrote:

I agree that enemies with the SBG can be annoying, but there are always different tactics you can use to engage them to avoid getting shot/juggled, so it strikes me as an incredibly minor problem.

I don't think it's minor at all when you are getting blown up before you can even stand up after the first hit.

As far as seeing eye to eye, I'm hoping that by discussing the appeal of singleplayer balance in Oni (above) we'll be able to reach some kind of closure/resolution at least, and it's possible that you'll convince me.

Sorry, but I'm done.  It's clear that you prefer Oni to be unchanged in all respects, whereas many other players do not feel that way.  There's no convincing to be done, it's just a clash of opinions.

In terms of objecting to optional gameplay mods, that's mostly correct. However, this particular change will still affect me if it becomes the multiplayer norm, and it'll still affect any Mac-only people who feel the same way as me about these types of things.

What can I say?  The people who design multiplayer need to make choices.  Not everything can be, or should be, left up to the players, or else you end up with a lack of clear design, style, and purpose in MP.  Besides, imagine if a fight starts in the lobby every time someone starts a new game with the exploit on, or off, and others don't like his choice.  It's easier to make the decision once in the design phase, put up with the complaints, then have a streamlined hosting setup rather than allowing the host all kinds of options and then having trouble finding a server that matches your exact preference.  In short, Oni MP cannot be all things to all people.  But we can certainly use polls to get a feel for what most people want, before ruling anything out.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#40 11/5/10 10:56

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Hey, I have an idea. Lets stop bickering about how multiplayer balance will work until we have a fully functioning multiplayer. From there  all you have to do is basically play it for an hour everyday until nobody has an issue with it.

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#41 11/5/10 13:24

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Paff wrote:

(Also, where'd the class-based bit come from? Team Fortress 2 or something? I've only ever played that game once, and I didn't like it, heh.)

Movie Battles 2. Class+Points based modification for Jedi Academy. A mod I help code for. smile

Dirk Gently wrote:

Hey, I have an idea. Lets stop bickering about how multiplayer balance will work until we have a fully functioning multiplayer. From there  all you have to do is basically play it for an hour everyday until nobody has an issue with it.

This. tongue


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#42 11/5/10 20:39

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Ay yi yi. Tension and frustration is bad. sad This topic is forcing us to focus on the areas where we disagree, of course, so I think it's definitely worth noting that we do agree on most issues, and I am thankful for and support your efforts even though I disagree with you on some points. I'm incredibly excited to see what AE and Flatline will bring in the future, and I'm worried now that this thread may have gotten us off on the wrong foot, and perhaps I should have waited a while before bringing it up, so that we could get to know each other better and find more common ground before we started arguing this. Please keep that in mind.

On multiplayer: I agree; if that wasn't part of the reasoning for removing cooldown cancelling, we have no need to talk about it until Flatline is much closer to being ready. If everyone's cool with dropping that discussion, let's do so.

Gumby: It sounds like your views on singleplayer mostly correspond to points Iritscen has already brought up, that we're discussing now? If so, I'll just respond directly to his points. If not, and/or if there's anything in particular you want to discuss, let me know.

Also, I'll be interested in seeing your class-based mod some day.

Iritscen:
I've had a thought, which is leading me to think that there might be value in singleplayer weapons balancing. Until now, I had always assumed that 99% of Oni players had no trouble beating vanilla Oni on Hard mode without guns. This assumption was based on my own experiences, the level of technique shown in ZDLO's videos, and discussions I've had my friends who also played Oni.

Is that assumption wrong? Do most people need guns to beat Hard mode? If so, that's a pretty strong case for balancing the guns in singleplayer, and I'll have to think about it.

Iritscen wrote:

Sorry, but I'm done.  It's clear that you prefer Oni to be unchanged in all respects, whereas many other players do not feel that way.  There's no convincing to be done, it's just a clash of opinions.

1. You definitely seem frustrated, and I'm sorry for that. That was seriously not my intention here. I'll go ahead and respond to more of your post below, in case you're still willing to discuss this.
2. I'm not sure how I gave the impression that I prefer it to be unchanged in all respects, but I definitely didn't intend to. I'm excited about the possibilities for mods to make the game more difficult and intense. However, I don't see the point behind some changes, and some changes strike me as being detrimental.

Iritscen wrote:

I did agree that it makes sense to make it optional, but I also said repeatedly that we can't currently do that on the Mac.

The way you say this, it sounds like you're not sure if I'm acknowledging that, and I suppose I haven't explicitly said I do yet, so it makes sense for you to not be sure. So: sorry about that, and I acknowledge what you're saying here.

Iritscen wrote:

Then it sounds like you need to turn up the difficulty tongue  If you aren't being challenged when playing the game, then you're in no position whatsoever to speak about balance or fairness.

I'm not sure where you're coming from/what you're getting at with the second sentence; please elaborate?

As to the first, I've only had vanilla Oni available until recently, and I've been playing it on Hard mode and putting random restrictions on myself to the point where it's challenging. Such restrictions often involve which guns I allow myself to use, so gun imbalance hasn't been a problem for me. Now that I've discovered AE and modding, I'm excited about the possibilities for making Oni more difficult. Currently I'm really enjoying the Upgraded ONCCs mod, and will look into more mods later.

Iritscen wrote:

I don't think it's minor at all when you are getting blown up before you can even stand up after the first hit.

My reasoning is that you don't need to get hit by the first hit. But in the same vein as my statements above, that reasoning is based on the assumption that it's easy for most people to figure out how to take out the AIs who have SBGs without getting hit. If that assumption is wrong, it's entirely possible that you have a strong point here.

Iritscen wrote:

AFAIK, the reason it was removed was because it's a bug.  If there's more of a reason than that, you have to ask Gumby and EdT.

Okay. We'll definitely have to have a "bugs philosophy" discussion at some point, but I think it should wait - we'd do better to keep this topic on singleplayer balance until we're done with that, take a breather for a while to cool down, and then think about picking up other topics.

Last edited by Paff (11/5/10 20:57)

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#43 12/5/10 5:05

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Paff wrote:

Is that assumption wrong? Do most people need guns to beat Hard mode? If so, that's a pretty strong case for balancing the guns in singleplayer, and I'll have to think about it.

I don't think we've ever polled people to see how easy Oni is for them, but I know I've never thought of Oni as a fun playground for doing whatever I want.  The game is grueling on Hard, and even Normal can push me to the limits with some AE mods turned on.  I don't spend hours playing the game to get better because I'm too busy modding it.  You might be surprised how poor at playing the game many of the modders are, although I don't know for sure because we have never been able to play each other.

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

Sorry, but I'm done.  It's clear that you prefer Oni to be unchanged in all respects, whereas many other players do not feel that way.  There's no convincing to be done, it's just a clash of opinions.

1. You definitely seem frustrated, and I'm sorry for that. That was seriously not my intention here. I'll go ahead and respond to more of your post below, in case you're still willing to discuss this.

I wouldn't say "frustrated", I've just said all I can say.  When you ask me such basic questions as "Why is balance desirable" and "Why can't I speak about balance if I find the game to be a piece of cake", it suddenly reminds me that I have extremely limited time for Oni and every minute I spend typing here is a minute I'm not modding.  Don't take it personally, I just don't have time for these never-ending word wars like I did back in geyser's time.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#44 12/5/10 13:16

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I'll say again, Paff, I don't have anything more useful to add to the thread.

Also, the mod I work on is at http://www.moviebattles.com


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#45 12/5/10 19:54

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

K, let's consider the discussion done then. I'll think about what you've said here.

Enjoy your modding.

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#46 12/5/10 21:25

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Paff wrote:

K, let's consider the discussion done then. I'll think about what you've said here.

Enjoy your modding.

If I didn't enjoy it, why would I be doing it? smile


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#47 12/5/10 21:37

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

So, um did these two pages (containing at least 5 pages worth of content) actually get anything accomplished?

Srsly, if they did list em below...

I will be surprised if anyone has changed their opinion, in my experience, it's extremely hard to change someone else's opinion cause you can't prove an opinion wrong :-P

Last edited by Mukade (12/5/10 21:38)


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#48 12/5/10 22:06

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Gumby:
smile I do understand the joys of modding - I used to do a lot of modding with an old strategy game called Ares. NMS, who's done Oni speedrunning, has also done some Ares speedrunning it looks like.

Mukade:
Because of this discussion, I'm now leaning towards agreeing that the guns should be made more balanced in singleplayer, at least. smile

And we all got some really good multiplayer gun-balancing insights from Dirk Gently.

(On opinions: My current theory is that most differences of opinion stem from subtle oversights or logical flaws in one's reasoning, and you often have to dig way down to figure out what those are. In this case, I had made a silly assumption about how difficult this game is for most people, and that was one part of why we disagreed. Now that I figured that out, we're closer to agreeing.)

Also I'm thinking now that I probably didn't conduct this as well as I should have, and I'm thinking about how to conduct future discussions like this better, assuming other people are willing to have said future discussions.

Last edited by Paff (12/5/10 22:16)

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#49 12/5/10 23:42

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Dirk Gently wrote:

Hey, I have an idea. Lets stop bickering about how multiplayer balance will work until we have a fully functioning multiplayer. From there  all you have to do is basically play it for an hour everyday until nobody has an issue with it.

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#50 13/5/10 5:13

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Yes, Dirk, but there's no harm in discussing concepts beforehand.  It doesn't make sense to haggle over the details when we don't even have a working alpha yet, perhaps, but Paff had a valid concern on the level of principle -- "Should we remove buggy mechanics if they add complexity to gameplay" (although it started as a concern about the game in SP mode).  Now is the time to express opinions on those larger principles, before MP is designed.  If you personally don't want to take part in the discussion anymore, that's fine too, but you don't need to quote yourself as if it's annoying you that other people still are talking about the subject.  We're not bickering anymore, either.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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