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#1 7/5/10 0:13

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

EDIT:

So, this thread started out as a discussion/debate about whether or not cooldown cancelling ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ_FpuAAzKQ ) and other buggy mechanics should be removed from the game. Eventually that discussion died, but along the way various other subjects were brought up. Although we're no longer having the original discussion, we've decided to discuss some other topics instead of just leaving the thread for dead.

The second topic was about Oni's future, particularly getting and keeping new players, particularly in light of the upcoming multiplayer functionality. It starts at around the top of Page 3, or this post: http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 641#p25641 .

The third topic was about what people don't like about Oni. This is primarily so that we'll have a good idea what to change with AE going forwards in order to get and keep new players. It's in a separate thread: http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=1622.

The fourth topic was about what people particularly like about Oni. Similarly to the third topic, this was primarily so that we'll have a good idea what to preserve and expand upon with AE. It's in a separate thread: http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=1625

The fifth topic is about what people would like to see changed about Oni, particularly in the context of multiplayer. It's intended as a sort of brainstorm/idea repository for the AE team to use as they decide what to do to improve Oni. It's in a separate thread: http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=1637

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POTENTIAL FUTURE TOPICS:
1. What everyone would particularly like to see added to/changed about Oni.
2. Philosophy of bugs.
3. More cooldown cancelling debate? :p

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NOTES FROM 1ST TOPIC - COOLDOWN CANCELLING:

resources:
1. Gumby is working on AE on the Windows side.
2. Iritscen is working on AE on the Mac side.
3. Iritscen has played Marathon a lot, and has considered Oni's multiplayer gun balance from a Marathon perspective.
4. Dirk Gently has played and modded Halo 1 a lot, and has a lot of multiplayer gun balance insights from it.

settled-ish points:
1. Fixing the cooldown bug requires changing the application on the Mac side, so it can't be an optional change.
2. MB and SBG are the best guns.
3. The AE team currently intends to fix the cooldown bug in AE; it will probably be an optional change on the Windows side, but forced on the Mac side.
4. Cooldowns are one tool that is available to use to balance guns, and leaving cooldown cancelling in the game would mostly eliminate that tool.
5. The AE team currently wishes to fix all/most bugs in AE, but some of them are difficult or impossible to fix.
6. Cooldown cancelling is unrealistic.
7. If the cooldown bug is fixed, even if it's optional, having the fix on will almost certainly become the norm in multiplayer.
8. Ammunition availability will have a major effect on gun balance.
9. Getting juggled by the SBG is annoying for many, many people.
10. Fighting against humans will be very little like fighting against the AIs.
11. We won't know much about the balance in multiplayer until we actually have multiplayer available.
12. It's a bad idea to give game hosts complete control over balance settings, because everyone will disagree on what to use and many hosts will use imbalanced settings.
13. It's useful to experiment now with different possible balance changes/fixes so that we'll be more ready by the time multiplayer is available.
14. The only way we're going to gain multiplayer weapons balance is going to be by trying different things out once we have multiplayer available.
15. It's entirely possible to beat vanilla Oni, on Hard difficulty, without using guns at all. However, the majority of Oni players haven't played it enough to gain the barehand-fighting skills required to do so.
16. Lots of people use the words "fair" and "unfair" in ways Paff isn't familiar with, and it can confuse him. :p
17. Paff did a pretty bad job keeping the discussion organized and stuff. :(
18. It's more important for the AE/Flatline team to make choices and get something out the door than it is for them to discuss everything to the point where they know what'll make it perfect.
19. It's probably a good idea to balance the guns in singleplayer.

unsettled points:
1. How bad are bugs?
2. How should the "purity of the game" be defined? Based on what we've had for nine years, or on what the developers would have given us if they'd had the time to do exactly what they wanted with the game?
3. How important is realism in this case?
4. Is it possible to balance the guns without using the cooldowns to do so?
5. How much should we value the complexity cooldown cancelling brings to gunplay?
6. Should we deal with multiplayer gun balance by changing the guns/game mechanics, or by using the game setup to make the guns more/less available as appropriate?
7. If we have different types of guns available on different maps, should we do something like having close-range guns mostly available on close-quarters maps, and long-range guns mostly available on wide-open maps?
8. If one isn't being challenged when playing the game, is one in any position whatsoever to speak about balance or fairness?

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NOTES FROM 2ND TOPIC - HOOKING NEW PLAYERS, PARTICULARLY VIA MULTIPLAYER:

resources:
1. Jon God hails from the Myth community, which spends a lot of its time trying to figure out how to get new players.
2. Jon God has talked to lots of non-Oni-players about Oni and gotten some to try it, and has talked with them afterwards to see what they thought.
3. Iritscen created a Wiki page back in the day at http://wiki.oni2.net/AE:Food_for_thought , which was intended to be used to discuss what people specifically didn't like about Oni.
4. Iritscen, Gumby, and Paff have played some fighting games before, which should be useful in terms of analyzing Oni's barehand combat in multiplayer.

settled-ish points:
1. Once multiplayer comes out, it will probably attract a lot of new players.
2. It'll be difficult/impossible to judge how balanced/imbalanced the guns/characters/moves are, and how to make them more balanced, until we actually have multiplayer available.
3. Similarly, it'll be difficult/impossible to judge the ways in which they are balanced/imbalanced until we actually have multiplayer available.
4. It'll be difficult/impossible to figure out what the best game setup is until we have multiplayer available.
5. Soon we should have a discussion about what we all liked and disliked about Oni, so that we can try to get a better idea of why so few people have liked it as much as us. When we do, it should be more organized than this thread.
6. The Mercury Bow and Superball Gun are probably going to be really good if we don't change them.
7. The Scram Cannon and Phase Stream Projector are probably going to be really bad if we don't change them.
8. We can't rely on game hosts to properly set games up so they're balanced.
9. A lot of people think Oni has a lot of flaws/problems.
10. Although any changes we make will upset some people, we probably do need to make some changes in order to increase Oni's retention rate with new players.
11. We should probably try to make the characters and moves as balanced as possible.
12. We probably won't get many chances to bring in lots of new players, so we should wait until we're sure we have something really good before we try to do so.
13. Some of vanilla Oni's moves are "unfair"/"broken"/"spammy"/"annoying"/"game-breaking", depending on one's terminology. :p
14. There are ten bajillion different possible game setups. Some will be easier to implement than others.
15. Male Cop is probably bad. :p
16. Loser has figured out a way to add "throw escape" moves.

unsettled points:
1. How much can we rely on mapmakers to properly set maps up so they're balanced?
2. How much should we balance guns via the game setup versus via changing them?
3. Characters/classes don't actually need to be all that different from each other moveset-wise in order to be radically different playstyle-wise.
4. Instead of having players choose from different characters, it will probably make more sense for them to choose from different classes.
5. Some new players will probably prefer Male Cop to any of the other characters.
6. Fighting games usually have a rock-paper-scissors setup where blocking beats attacks, throws beat blocking, and attacking beats throws.
7. It would be a bad idea to add more buttons to Oni's controls.
8. Oni needs both to be very fun for most new players, and to remain very fun for most players for a very long time.
9. Should we make multiplayer class-based instead of character-based? If so, what should we do with Barabas/Mukade's movesets/models?

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NOTES FROM 3RD TOPIC - ONI'S FLAWS:

issues raised:
1. No multiplayer.
2. Simple environments.
3. Lack of weapon balance.
4. Story limited/incomplete.
5. Goals too monotonous.
6. Dodgy graphics.
7. AI is limited.
8. Stealth isn't useful-enough.
9. Linear levels.
10. No training with difficult-to-perform moves.
11. Can't easily change controls.
12. Some unrealistic mechanics.
13. Can't skip cutscenes.
14. Cutscene dialog is poorly done.
15. Some basic moves/actions are difficult to perform.
16. Laser traps can be annoying.
17. Blocks in acid can be annoying.
18. The Phase Stream Projector is dumb.
19. When crouchwalking, one often can't change direction without first moving in a different direction or standing.
20. Difficulty doesn't go high-enough.
21. Auto-aim is annoying.
22. Some unrealistic moves.
23. Unrealistically-weak guns.
24. Limited platforming.
25. Lack of replay value for some people.

unsettled points:
1. Does the AI learn your moves and counteract them to some degree?

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NOTES FROM 4TH TOPIC - ONI'S STRENGTHS:

issues raised:
1. Good, complex combat.
2. Easy-to-learn controls.
3. Huge variety of tactical situations.
4. Realistic-ish gun-fu is cool.
5. Cool ideas in the story.
6. Great form of stress relief.
7. Funny things, such as the Deadly Brain.
8. Realistic architecture.
9. Excellent animations.
10. Plot is open for expansion.
11. Gun/barehand balance.
12. Moddable.
13. Good characters.
14. Good music.
15. Amusing/cheap kills.
16. Amusing glitches.

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NOTES FROM 5TH TOPIC - DESIRED CHANGES:
(Coming soon to a thread near you!)

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THE ORIGINAL OP:

I figured we shouldn't take up any more space in the Movies thread talking about this, so I'm making a new topic.

Firstly:
This is definitely an argument, or is about to become one. Although I disagree with the decision to remove cooldown cancelling from Oni, I have no hard feelings towards any of you, and am thankful for all the work you've already done and are planning to do in order to make this game even better than it originally was. If anything I say here seems offensive, it was unintentionally so, and I apologize; please don't take offense.

Secondly:
I think making the guns well-balanced against each other should be secondary to making the characters well-balanced against each other.

People tend use whichever guns are available and not have too strong a preference about which one they happen to be using, or which one works best with the strategy they're trying.

In contrast, each character has a radically different feel and complex set of moves, and people spend a lot of time on their chosen characters and grow attached to them. Because of this, leaving the characters imbalanced means that some players will have to choose between using a character they like, but will usually lose with, or choosing a character they don't really like, but have a decent chance of winning with. Guns do not have that issue to nearly the same degree.

Furthermore, which guns are available for use should hopefully be selectable by the game host, which means that if you're getting sick of using all Mercury Bows and SBGs, you can turn them off and use the other guns.

Thirdly:
Making any balance-changing decisions before humans have a chance to play against other humans is pretty questionable, IMO. We currently have a very limited idea of how actual human-vs-human strategies will affect balance, and the only way to find out is by actually playing against other humans a lot.

Now then, to respond to Gumby:

Gumby wrote:

IMO, SBG is the best gun. You can juggle someone easily with the widespread explosions, or hit them with the initial projectile (causing all six explosions to contact, plus a great deal of the flak damage) and get an instakill.

Yeah, I'd definitely consider the SBG second-best, and it's certainly more powerful under its ideal circumstances. The Mercury Bow's greater effectiveness at extremely long and short ranges is what makes me think it's better overall, but meh. I'm not too concerned about determining which gun is better, and it's a bit secondary to the main topic at hand anyway.

Gumby wrote:

The cooldown is there as an attempt to balance the gun.

I agree, the cooldown attempts to balance the gun. However, even without cooldown cancelling, the SBG fires rapidly-enough to juggle, and the Mercury Bow is extremely powerful; the cooldown fails to balance these guns.

Also, one can achieve a similar effect to cooldown-cancelling by firing these guns, then holstering them and dashing away from one's enemy until the cooldown has finished. The only way to prevent that from being an effective strategy is to limit the map size, and as soon as you're trying to balance the guns by changing the map, all sorts of avenues become available that would almost certainly also work to balance them even with cooldown cancelling available.

Gumby wrote:

Saying that the gun is imbalanced is no excuse to make it even worse. :)

We're not talking about "making it even worse". Cooldown cancelling is currently in the game, and what we're talking about is removing cooldown cancelling, which would make the balance slightly less-bad than it currently is.

We wouldn't be changing the balance by leaving cooldown cancelling in, but we would be changing the balance by removing it.

Gumby wrote:

If the cooldown exploit wasn't useful, you wouldn't be making a post about it, would you?

This is definitely secondary to the main topic, but actually I discovered it very recently and haven't had a chance to test its applications yet. :p

I just thought it was interesting, and had a ton of potential, so I posted about it. I'll be experimenting with its applications soon.

It's almost certainly very powerful in many situations, though.

Gumby wrote:

Exploit fix will probably have an option to turn it off, but will be on by default.

Okay, I could certainly live with that.

Gumby wrote:

Ammo - Server owner\host's choice. :)
Space - I'm pegging the level where you first meet ninja (can't for the life of me remember the name) as about the right size for a map. But any Oni map should work. It's not hard to make a map "smaller" by locking a few doors.

Cool. I forget where you first meet ninja - is it the end of the Regional State Building? Or the beginning of the Rooftops level?

Gumby wrote:

Okay, I like that. :) So the midair jumps and rising aerial dodges you can do when you run off edges will still be in?

Probably, as they aren't blatant exploits, just an oddness of the physics\animation system. If I find a way to fix it, I'll consider it, but it will be a harder fix than this is.

Okay. If you do remove it, I'd request that you make the "fix" optional.

Gumby wrote:

And guns reloading instantly when you disarm people who are in the middle of reloading?

Eventually, that would be nice. It might be tough to tell the game when the gun is actually reloaded though.

From a "purity of the game" perspective, I'd rather have this be optional also, but it's definitely not a very significant issue for me; I don't think it really adds or detracts from the game much.

Gumby wrote:

And dropping your gun and catching it before it falls to the ground?

Yes, that shouldn't be hard to fix.

Why remove it?

Last edited by Paff (7/6/10 1:12)

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#2 7/5/10 2:13

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I agree, the cooldown attempts to balance the gun. However, even without cooldown cancelling, the SBG fires rapidly-enough to juggle, and the Mercury Bow is extremely powerful; the cooldown fails to balance these guns.

I'd like to continue to balance the guns. But for example, it is impossible to remove SBG juggling with the cooldown exploit in place. And all and all, the MBow isn't as powerful as you make it out to be. The same effect can be had by emptying a Black Adder clip into the enemy's face, and said feat requires less aim.

The Mbow is balanced by four things:
1. Long time between shots.
2. Pinpoint accuracy (if you miss a shot, not only have you wasted half a clip, but you've alerted the enemy, AND you have to wait for the gun to cool down)
3. Ammo consumption
4. Rarity of the weapon. Even in MP, you would have to give up something to spawn with the gun. If one were to be hidden on a map, it would be in a place hard to get to. And there would only be one of them on the map. (of course hosts could change that, but its thier decision to break the game....)

How exactly do you propose to balance the Mbow and SBG?

We're not talking about "making it even worse". Cooldown cancelling is currently in the game, and what we're talking about is removing cooldown cancelling, which would make the balance slightly less-bad than it currently is.
We wouldn't be changing the balance by leaving cooldown cancelling in, but we would be changing the balance by removing it.

Ok, I still prefer less-bad to the alternative. smile It makes it harder to balance guns with it in.

Cool. I forget where you first meet ninja - is it the end of the Regional State Building? Or the beginning of the Rooftops level?

State Building, yeah.

From a "purity of the game" perspective, I'd rather have this be optional also, but it's definitely not a very significant issue for me; I don't think it really adds or detracts from the game much.

Purity of the game means nothing, imo, if the game wasn't finished. The "pure game" has enemies who fail completely at bullet dodging, and all sorts of fun goodies. As we are basically the stewards of Oni's legacy, I would rather make it into something better than glorify its bugs. tongue

Why remove it?

You brought it up, idk. I don't really see any issue in leaving it in. It does allow quick movement with the WMC though (drop, cartwheel\roll, pickup). tongue

----

As for the SBG, here is how I want to balance it:

1. Increase (double?) cooldown time to prevent spammage\juggling.
2. Instead of splitting the projectile and ganking the enemy  with all 6 projectiles when you hit someone directly, just explode once with extra (x2 or x3) damage. This would keep the gun powerful if you manage to hit someone directly with it (not quite so easy), but wouldn't be so powerful compared to the ammo cost, and would still keep sheilds as a valid defense. (Currently, the gun rips through your shileds, AND does HP damage on top of it, because of the multiple explosions...)

I might also give the explosions a bit more falloff. We'll see.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#3 7/5/10 13:55

Mukade
Member
From: Ottawa, Ontario - Canada
Registered: 29/5/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Oh gosh, I don't feel like reading this whole thing... too text heavy, anyways ill ust give me opinion...

I'm in agreement with this, IRL, if a gun had a cooldown, would you be able to drop it, pick it up and say YES ITS COOLED DOWN!

No, I don't think so...

And as gumby said, the cooldown is one of the things that makes it a balanced gun.. take that out, and it becomes extremely over powered.

And here is a question for AE team... will you be removing it with no choice by the player? Or will be an installable update using AE installer? If it's optional to install this fix, then this discussion becomes a moot point... If it ISN'T an option, then I would suggest to the AE team to make it optional, if it isn't all that much work of course smile


"He looks mean enough to tear my arm off and beat me to death with it. In fact, he looks mean enough to tear his OWN arm off and beat me to death with it."

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#4 7/5/10 15:35

TOCS
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 4/4/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I hope it'll be an optional package. Most of these major changes are packages, so my doubts are low.

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#5 7/5/10 17:58

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Well, the thing about this fix is that it requires patching the executable.  It's not a fix that comes in the form of a package.  On Windows it's the Daodan DLL that does the patching, and if the Daodan authors want, they could make it optional, although that requires extra work.  On the Mac we need to patch the app directly, so it's not possible to make it optional.

Although I realize that we have yet to produce a multiplayer feature, if you think about it, you shouldn't get too attached to an exploit like this, because MP games will be played off a uniform set of data that doesn't allow for optional mods, so the fix will almost certainly be forced in that case.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#6 7/5/10 19:00

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Aren't we jumping ahead a little here?


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#7 7/5/10 19:29

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Not really.  The MB exploit is already patched in the current AE for the Mac and might be patched in the coming AE for Windows.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#8 7/5/10 21:21

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Iritscen wrote:

Not really.  The MB exploit is already patched in the current AE for the Mac and might be patched in the coming AE for Windows.

No it won't be. The next Daodan is sadly not ready for release.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#9 7/5/10 22:30

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Okay, so I'm replying to the posts by Gumby, Mukade, Tocs, and Iritscen, and I've tried to organize the quotes/responses by subtopic, and hopefully I didn't miss anything when I reordered things. If I did, let me know, and I'll respond to whatever, et cetera.

Wow, this is getting huge. Sorry for the wall of text, everyone.

Mukade wrote:

And here is a question for AE team... will you be removing it with no choice by the player? Or will be an installable update using AE installer? If it's optional to install this fix, then this discussion becomes a moot point... If it ISN'T an option, then I would suggest to the AE team to make it optional, if it isn't all that much work of course smile

...and:

TOCS wrote:

I hope it'll be an optional package. Most of these major changes are packages, so my doubts are low.

...and:

Iritscen wrote:

Well, the thing about this fix is that it requires patching the executable.  It's not a fix that comes in the form of a package.  On Windows it's the Daodan DLL that does the patching, and if the Daodan authors want, they could make it optional, although that requires extra work.  On the Mac we need to patch the app directly, so it's not possible to make it optional.

Although I realize that we have yet to produce a multiplayer feature, if you think about it, you shouldn't get too attached to an exploit like this, because MP games will be played off a uniform set of data that doesn't allow for optional mods, so the fix will almost certainly be forced in that case.

If it were optional, that'd be ideal. Although, as Iritscen points out, most of the multiplayer will probably use a "main" ruleset which, if it's optional, would probably have it off.

And it sounds like it probably won't be optional.

If it were optional, I'd be okay with it being optional but off-by-default, and I'd just suck it up and cooperate with people online, playing with it off if they want if off, but asking them if they're willing to play with it on.

If it's not going to be optional, I'll accept whatever decision you guys come to, but I really think that it's premature to go around removing mechanics from the game.

Gumby wrote:

I'd like to continue to balance the guns. But for example, it is impossible to remove SBG juggling with the cooldown exploit in place.

...

Ok, I still prefer less-bad to the alternative. smile It makes it harder to balance guns with it in.

If the guns are impossible to balance/manage with cooldown cancelling in the game, and are possible to balance with cooldown cancelling removed, that would be a good reason to consider removing it. However:
1. I think they're probably possible to balance/manage with cooldown cancelling in the game.
2. Even if they aren't, we would have to weigh the value of having all of the guns be strategically viable versus the value of having more interesting and complex gunfighting mechanics. I'm really not sure which of those two would be better.

Only once we've tried and found that we can't balance the guns with cooldown cancelling in, and once we've seriously thought about it and concluded that we really, truly care about gun balance more than we care about the game's current gunfighting mechanics, should we remove it. (And if we find that it causes some much bigger problem, then of course I'd be fine with removing it.)

Mukade wrote:

And as gumby said, the cooldown is one of the things that makes it a balanced gun.. take that out, and it becomes extremely over powered.

...and:

Gumby wrote:

The Mbow is balanced by four things:
1. Long time between shots.
2. Pinpoint accuracy (if you miss a shot, not only have you wasted half a clip, but you've alerted the enemy, AND you have to wait for the gun to cool down)
3. Ammo consumption
4. Rarity of the weapon. Even in MP, you would have to give up something to spawn with the gun. If one were to be hidden on a map, it would be in a place hard to get to. And there would only be one of them on the map. (of course hosts could change that, but its thier decision to break the game....)

It seems to me:

1. Long cooldown helps to some extent, but I think it goes like this:
- If they don't have a gun or have a short-ranged gun, you can avoid them until the cooldown wears off and fire again from out of range, so the cooldown really doesn't do much in that case.
- If they have a long-ranged gun and you are at short range, you just knocked them down with your shot and can rush them while they're busy getting up and trying to retrieve their gun; once the cooldown has worn off, if you can land a hit that stuns them decently, you can combo into a Mercury Bow shot. Note that you could also run away from them and out-shoot them with your Mercury Bow if they have any gun that is not an SBG or a Mercury Bow.
- If they have a long-ranged gun and you're at medium-to-long range, they can't match you except with another Mercury Bow or maybe with the SBG, depending on how well they juggle/how well you dodge the grenades. It's tough to say without playing human-vs-human.
- At extremely long range, the SBG is too hard to aim/too easy to dodge, so you can just shoot people with the Mercury Bow and run away during the cooldowns until you win.

So basically, I think without cooldown cancelling, the Mercury Bow and SBG basically dominate all of the other guns, except where ammunition efficiency/ammunition type is concerned.

2. The pinpoint accuracy lets you not miss any shots. tongue

3. I agree; ammo consumption is probably its main limitation.

4. I agree, and I think the limitations of different guns' availability should be one of the main ways in which gun balance is attained.

Overall, I think in terms of balancing, the cooldowns are secondary to ammunition efficiency and availability.

Gumby wrote:

And all and all, the MBow isn't as powerful as you make it out to be. The same effect can be had by emptying a Black Adder clip into the enemy's face, and said feat requires less aim.

This is a little secondary, but the Mercury Bow is much better than the Black Adder:
1. The Mercury Bow takes half a clip to do what the Black Adder does in one full clip.
2. The Black Adder is only really effective at very close ranges, whereas the Mercury Bow is fully effective at any range, including extremely long ranges where no other gun can hope to compete.
3. The Black Adder literally takes more than two seconds to deliver its damage, whereas the Mercury Bow delivers its damage instantaneously. This means you can rush someone who has a Black Adder before they finish their clip, but not rush someone who has a Mercury Bow before they shoot you; you can kill someone with your Mercury Bow before they can kill you with their Black Adder if you're both at lowish health; and you're guaranteed to combo into full Mercury Bow shots from your melee attacks.

Gumby wrote:

How exactly do you propose to balance the Mbow and SBG?

...

As for the SBG, here is how I want to balance it:

1. Increase (double?) cooldown time to prevent spammage\juggling.
2. Instead of splitting the projectile and ganking the enemy  with all 6 projectiles when you hit someone directly, just explode once with extra (x2 or x3) damage. This would keep the gun powerful if you manage to hit someone directly with it (not quite so easy), but wouldn't be so powerful compared to the ammo cost, and would still keep sheilds as a valid defense. (Currently, the gun rips through your shileds, AND does HP damage on top of it, because of the multiple explosions...)

I might also give the explosions a bit more falloff. We'll see.

I'll try to leave a summary here that covers both how I'd try to balance them, and my thoughts on your proposals:

To deal with the SBG's balance issues, I would ideally try to use some combination of the following:
1. Leave it up to game hosts to set the availability of SBGs and ammunition for them; hosts can always turn SBGs off completely if they feel like using the guns that aren't as good as them. I seriously think this would do the job by itself.
2. Reduce the initial grenade's speed to make it more difficult to aim and easier to dodge.
3. Add variability to the initial grenade's trajectory, like the Black Adder's bullets, to make it more difficult to aim.
4. Reduce the number of shots per clip. Taken to the extreme, make it unreloadable, like the Wave Motion Cannon.
5. Reduce its damage.

If all of those didn't work, I might try:
1. Remove, or reduce in quantity, the six secondary grenades. I wouldn't want to do this because it would fundamentally change what the gun does.
2. Remove the explosions' knockdown. I wouldn't want to do this because it would fundamentally change what the gun does.
3. Remove cooldown cancelling AND increase the gun's cooldown AND force people using the SBG to only use it in small areas where they don't have room to run away while waiting for the cooldown to finish. I wouldn't want to do this because it would fundamentally change and simplify the gunfighting mechanics, and it would severely limit the levels the players can play on.

To deal with the Mercury Bow's balance issues, I would ideally try to use some combination of the following:
1. Leave it up to game hosts to set the availability of Mercury Bows and ammunition for them; hosts can always turn Mercury Bows off completely if they feel like using the guns that aren't as good as them. I seriously think this would do the job by itself.
2. Reduce the number of shots per clip to one. If a more extreme nerf is needed, make it unreloadable, like the Wave Motion Cannon.

If those didn't work, I might try:
1. Reduce its damage. I wouldn't want to do this because the heavy damage per shot is, I think, a fundamental part of what makes the Mercury Bow the Mercury Bow.
2. Remove cooldown cancelling AND MAYBE increase the gun's cooldown AND force people using the Mercury Bow to only use it in small areas where they don't have room to run away while waiting for the cooldown to finish. I wouldn't want to do this because it would fundamentally change and simplify the gunfighting mechanics, and it would severely limit the levels the players can play on.

Gumby wrote:

Purity of the game means nothing, imo, if the game wasn't finished.

Personally, I'd definitely define the "purity of the game" based off of what we have actually had available for the last nine years instead of what the developers would have given us if they'd had more time, but I can understand where you're coming from.

Gumby wrote:

The "pure game" has enemies who fail completely at bullet dodging, and all sorts of fun goodies.

Yes, the game has some limitations/problems that we can remove/improve upon. Removing some of them would be true to what the game is, and others wouldn't.

I think that cooldown cancelling and guns-reloading-faster-when-you-disarm-people are not problems, and that changing the game's fundamental mechanics is rarely true to the game.

Gumby wrote:

As we are basically the stewards of Oni's legacy, I would rather make it into something better than glorify its bugs. tongue

A few things:
1. What is a bug but an unintended feature? In games, anyway, some bugs are bad, and others are not. Do you really value the developer's intentions above all else? If so, what are your thoughts on Super Smash Bros. Melee, which is incredibly deep/long-lasting despite its creators' intentions to the contrary, and in part because of its creators' inability to "fix" things that they only discovered too late in the production cycle to do anything about?
2. The choice between "making it into something better" and "glorifying its bugs" is a false one. If you consider cooldown cancelling to be a bug, and you consider wanting to keep it to be glorifying it, I would definitely argue that keeping it in is not mutually exclusive with improving Oni, and that, to the contrary, removing it would make Oni less good.

Gumby wrote:

You brought it up, idk. I don't really see any issue in leaving it in. It does allow quick movement with the WMC though (drop, cartwheel\roll, pickup). tongue

Heh, k. Although, we seem to have had a miscommunication - what I was initially talking about here was dropping your gun, and then catching it out of the air, while you're standing still. It's just pressing E and then Q really fast.

Mukade wrote:

I'm in agreement with this, IRL, if a gun had a cooldown, would you be able to drop it, pick it up and say YES ITS COOLED DOWN!

No, I don't think so...

Video games do not need to be 100% realistic, and in fact part of what makes them good is that they intentionally deviate from reality and make it cooler/more fun. And, even without cooldown cancelling, and even without bugs, Oni already has loads of unrealistic features:
- You're immune to punches and kicks as long as you're in the middle of throwing someone.
- Konoko can jump six feet in the air, straight up, from a standing position.
- After you break someone's back, they can get right back up and keep fighting you like nothing happened.
- Whenever someone gets punched or kicked, there's a giant flash of light that's color-coded based on how much health they have. If the punch or kick killed them, there are also bubbles.
- While you're airborne from a jump, you can control the rate of your acceleration due to gravity.
- You can make smoke come out of any surface by sliding on it.
- You can't pick up a gun if you currently have another gun holstered.
- et cetera

I don't think we should get rid of all of those features for the sake of realism.

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#10 8/5/10 1:04

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I can see that this debate isn't going to go much farther. You (for whatever reason, it doesn't make sense to me tongue) like the cooldown exploit, and I don't.  I'll just move on to the more pressing issues at hand, which I may or may not be able to sneak into the next patch.

EDIT: I will point out one thing though:

3. The Black Adder literally takes more than two seconds to deliver its damage, whereas the Mercury Bow delivers its damage instantaneously.

The MBow is not meant to deal the entire clip's damage in a short period of time like the Black Adder does. There is supposed to be opportunity for an enemy to close the distance.

To deal with the SBG's balance issues, I would ideally try to use some combination of the following:
1. Leave it up to game hosts to set the availability of SBGs and ammunition for them; hosts can always turn SBGs off completely if they feel like using the guns that aren't as good as them. I seriously think this would do the job by itself.

This does nothing to fix the underlying problem. smile

2. Reduce the initial grenade's speed to make it more difficult to aim and easier to dodge.

It would make it easier to dodge, but it still wouldn't matter much given the size of the explosion

3. Add variability to the initial grenade's trajectory, like the Black Adder's bullets, to make it more difficult to aim.

This would just get annoying in my opinion. It would lead to not being able to make precise short\medium range shots for fear of getting a bad dice roll and getting a short shot.

4. Reduce the number of shots per clip. Taken to the extreme, make it unreloadable, like the Wave Motion Cannon.

Meh. Reducing the number of shots in the clip would simply gimp the gun. It would work I suppose, but getting only 3 (or 2 or 1...)
shots per clip would just suck. I would not be opposed to doing such a thing, however it will need a bit of tweaking to fix the ammo meter images. It also fails to  address the problem that the weapon can do more than 250 damage if you time the shot correctly, and fails to address the fact that you can still get juggled with it.

Making it unreloadable would make the weapon worthless in SP, given that most guns are stolen from enemies.

5. Reduce its damage.

This fixes the problem of pure damage, but not the problem of juggling. I will certainly do this though.

If all of those didn't work, I might try:
1. Remove, or reduce in quantity, the six secondary grenades. I wouldn't want to do this because it would fundamentally change what the gun does.
2. Remove the explosions' knockdown. I wouldn't want to do this because it would fundamentally change what the gun does.

Simply put, juggling isn't fixable without making it not knock down any more (which would be kind of odd, and change the gun a whole lot), lowering the damage enough that you are forced to juggle to do any decent damage, or increasing the timing between shots.

3. Remove cooldown cancelling AND increase the gun's cooldown AND force people using the SBG to only use it in small areas where they don't have room to run away while waiting for the cooldown to finish. I wouldn't want to do this because it would fundamentally change and simplify the gunfighting mechanics, and it would severely limit the levels the players can play on.

Now see, the SBG doesn't suffer the same problem as the MBow, in that it can be used from uberlong ranges with great effect. It is my opinion that just doing the first two would fix things. If you are close enough to hit someone with the SBG accurately, the enemy will almost certainly be close enough to punish you with a kick to the face.

---

Leave it up to game hosts to set the availability of Mercury Bows and ammunition for them; hosts can always turn Mercury Bows off completely if they feel like using the guns that aren't as good as them. I seriously think this would do the job by itself.

I agree that limiting the availability of the weapon will do the trick just fine, as it is in SP. The weapon won't be quite so powerful in MP, given the difference between an AI trying to dodge a sniper shot and a human trying to dodge a sniper shot.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
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#11 8/5/10 2:02

Paff
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From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Yeah, the discussion does seem to be going nowhere. Can we make one more effort? I'll try to be more brief, and cut right to the heart of the issue:

Gumby wrote:

You (for whatever reason, it doesn't make sense to me tongue) like the cooldown exploit, and I don't.

I like it because it makes gunfighting into more than just point-and-click while running around to try to dodge. (That's an exaggeration, of course.) Suddenly you have to decide between running around at full speed to dodge, or giving up some of your freedom of movement temporarily fire more rapidly, and you have to choose a specific method for how you want to do that, with tradeoffs in speed and accuracy and rapidness. It also opens up whole new avenues of physical coordination when using guns.

Why do you dislike it? Is it just because it's "buggy", or is there anything more?

Gumby wrote:

To deal with the SBG's balance issues, I would ideally try to use some combination of the following:
1. Leave it up to game hosts to set the availability of SBGs and ammunition for them; hosts can always turn SBGs off completely if they feel like using the guns that aren't as good as them. I seriously think this would do the job by itself.

This does nothing to fix the underlying problem. smile

What is the underlying problem, and how does that not fix it?

And what are your balance concerns, exactly? We haven't actually laid them out specifically yet, heh. tongue

And one final note: I'd like to reiterate that until we've had a chance to actually try these things out in human vs human games, we won't actually know what we're doing in terms of balance.

Last edited by Paff (8/5/10 2:03)

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#12 8/5/10 2:27

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

My balance concern is that SBG rapes in close quarters. smile

Edit: I don't like the cooldown exploit for two reasons. First, it makes it harder to balance things. Second, it is a bug. And as a programmer I am in an endless struggle to get rid of said bugs. tongue

Also, there is 0 sacrifice in using said bug on an enemy you have already hit with the MBow, as it knocks people over (why? idk. I think I'm just going to have it play a hurt anim...)


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#13 8/5/10 3:14

Paff
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From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

How does the SBG raping in close quarters translate into a problem, though? Do you just expect that players will never choose to use any of the other guns in multiplayer? If that's your concern, why don't you think that giving hosts the ability to disable SBGs would fix the problem? If that isn't your concern, what is?

And how much ammo are you planning to have available per life? I've been envisioning multiplayer as having something like one clip of ammo per every 2-3 lives, so that even with Mercury Bows and SBGs, you have to get a lot of your damage in with kung fu.

(Also, I'm a programmer too, heh. But between programming and playing Melee, I've been on both sides of the bug issue, and I honestly really don't mind bugs that don't detract from gameplay. tongue )

Last edited by Paff (8/5/10 3:19)

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#14 8/5/10 3:29

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Oni is (and always will be) an SP game. The gun is not balanced in SP. I hate it when one of the AI gets a hold of the gun and it rains explosions. sad If you are holding the gun, it translates to four free kills per ammo clip.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
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#15 8/5/10 3:34

Paff
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From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

What's wrong with it being so powerful in singleplayer? You can easily beat the game without using it, so really you should just be using whichever gun you feel like messing around with, or no guns at all if that's your thing...

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#16 8/5/10 7:46

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I'd just like to interject a couple thoughts:

1. We've toyed with the idea of making rifles unable to be holstered.  This would have the effect of preventing someone from doing a "hit and run" where they shoot you with the MB (or anything else), holster it, and dash away from you until it's cooled down, then whip it out again.  They'd have to keep holding it, which prevents dashing, or else drop it and dash for their lives.  The third option would be to use the keyboard punch and kick controls to fight with the weapon while it cools down.  Doesn't that lend more interesting complexity to combat than just leaving in the cooldown exploit?

2. The SBG's insta-kill from a direct hit doesn't concern me, as human players will be doing lots of dodging when someone has an SBG, if they know what's good for them.  But I do agree that the single biggest balance issue is SBG juggling, particularly if the player can hit you with a direct second hit after knocking you down with a first indirect hit.  However, Paff is correct that the weapon is ineffective at long range.  Perhaps seeing an SBG wielder in-game will mean that you need to keep your distance until they exhaust their ammo or switch weapons.

One of the games I often think about when contemplating MP is Marathon.  Marathon has weapons that absolutely own at certain distances; if you meet someone with a flamethrower at close range, you're probably dead meat.  A rocket launcher at close-mid-range?  Dead meat.  But no one complains about any weapon's balance, except for the shotgun, which is notorious for not only being an insta-kill at close range, but for killing at long range because it has a tighter spread than the machine gun and reloads super-fast when you are dual-wielding.

Therefore, I think that as long as a weapon only wins at a certain range, there are no balance issues.  That's just standard rock-paper-scissors; "Oh, he has a better gun than I do at close range, I'd better stay long-range or else pick up a different weapon".  The MB is imbalanced with the cooldown exploit because the MB will be most effective against human players at mid-range.  The cooldown time is set the way it is so that you can close the gap from mid-range if you're lucky enough to dodge the first shot in the clip.

Besides which, I think you're over-reacting, because this is nearly the only weapon exploit I know of, so it's not like we're going to be removing all kinds of advanced tactics from combat; we're just fixing one oversight in the code that will become very annoying in MP.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#17 8/5/10 9:40

Dirk Gently
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From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
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Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I am just going to throw my opinion out there, but I have always tried to shy away from using a gun if I did not need to. I will carry them around during gameplay but rarely be forced to use them because it breaks the flow of gameplay for me. While the mercury bow is one of my favorite weapons, I would like to ask how the cooldown time is such an issue for that? I can see this being an issue if Oni was a first person game. Multiplayer would be extremely difficult to do with something like the MB. However, there is such a vast difference in shooting an AI and shooting a player. Players are dynamic, and you have to be worrying  about moving around while sniping so you don't get hit. I think that single aspect of gameplay will change the use of the weapon. Something else that should be considered is that weapons are not ever completely balanced, but the map is. While your SBG might seem overpowered, it can stay that way as long as there are weapons or other methods to eliminate the person using this gun. maybe the MB is what the SBG needs in multiplayer to even out the playing field. I come from the crowd that follows Halo 1. The most well known map from Halo 1 is bloodgulch, on the PC this map has three power weapons, all which sit in the middle of the map between each side. By themselves these weapons are overpowered, but in combination they balance each other out. In Oni SP, you are using the SBG against VERY dumb AI. This flaw is also their benefit when attacking you, they come at you directly and often don't miss. While that is true for SP, it is never the same in a MP experience.

In the end, do whatever you must to make the game fair and balanced for all players, but I think that sometimes you cannot balance a weapon to the point it turned into a water pistol for the sake of fairness. In that case you should be looking at another weapon to even out the power of each. You cannot fine to a weapon to be perfect, so make it as near perfect as possible and then counter-balance to make the playing experience equal and fair.

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#18 8/5/10 12:54

Paff
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From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I'll just sum up my position real quick here, and then respond to a couple of important points:

1. In the context of a singleplayer campaign that can already be easily beaten using any of the guns (or even no guns at all), balancing the guns against each other is basically pointless.
2. Bugs in games are not inherently bad.
3. Cooldown cancelling provides some very interesting mechanics and techniques.
4. Interesting mechanics and techniques are important.
5. In the context of multiplayer, having gun balance is reasonably important.
6. Gun balance can almost certainly be achieved in multiplayer simply by regulating the availability of different guns/ammo on each map.
7. Gun balance in multiplayer will depend heavily upon human-vs-human tactics.
8. Until we have multiplayer, we will not understand those human-vs-human tactics.
9. Because we do not have multiplayer yet, we do not understand those human-vs-human tactics yet; therefore, we do not understand multiplayer gun balance yet; therefore, we cannot know how fix multiplayer gun balance yet; therefore, we shouldn't be trying to fix multiplayer gun balance yet.

Iritscen wrote:

We've toyed with the idea of making rifles unable to be holstered.

This is indeed an interesting and promising idea. Again, though, I think we should wait until we have multiplayer available before we try such things.

Iritscen wrote:

The third option would be to use the keyboard punch and kick controls to fight with the weapon while it cools down.  Doesn't that lend more interesting complexity to combat than just leaving in the cooldown exploit?

I'm not certain what you mean:
1. Are you talking about adding a new feature, or are you just referring to how you can use your kick and shift moves at any time while holding a gun?
2. If a new feature, do you mean just for rifles that you can't holster, or for any gun?
3. If a new feature, do you mean giving you your normal punch moves, or would you have that gun smack motion you do when you're holding a gun without ammo?

And I'd like to point out that:
1. This is not mutually exclusive with cooldown cancelling. tongue
2. You already have your kick and shift moves available when you're holding a gun, and can use some guns reasonably well in conjunction with them at close ranges/have some situations where you want to use them during a gun's cooldown anyway (although this is a field I need to investigate further, honestly).

Iritscen wrote:

Besides which, I think you're over-reacting, because this is nearly the only weapon exploit I know of, so it's not like we're going to be removing all kinds of advanced tactics from combat; we're just fixing one oversight in the code that will become very annoying in MP.

Psh, I'm not overreacting; Oni is serious business. tongue

I think it's probably not going to be very annoying in MP, and I think it's very likely that there will be all kinds of different ways to use it in MP. However, I need to mess with it more, which I will do soon, and we can't say very much with certainty about MP until we actually have it available.

I think Dirk Gently's insights are very good. We seriously don't know much about MP balance yet, and it's definitely going to be very different from SP balance. Furthermore, regulating which guns are available on each map, and using multiple powerful guns to balance each other out, are going to be very powerful (and very non-drastic) tools for MP balance.

Last edited by Paff (8/5/10 13:37)

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#19 8/5/10 13:48

Gumby
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 30/8/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Try pressing F and V while holding a gun. smile


Iritscen: roll
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Gumby: i know
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#20 8/5/10 13:52

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Paff wrote:
Iritscen wrote:

The third option would be to use the keyboard punch and kick controls to fight with the weapon while it cools down.  Doesn't that lend more interesting complexity to combat than just leaving in the cooldown exploit?

I'm not certain what you mean

You're thinking too much about what I wrote smile  I just meant that the player would have those three options if they couldn't holster the rifle.  The third option I gave simply refers to the fact that, even when holding a weapon that is ready to fire, you can fight with it as a melee weapon to keep someone back so you don't get disarmed.  I wasn't talking about changing the weapons melee feature, just taking advantage of the existing feature.

However, it *is* a small shortcoming on Oni's part that the weapon is not being used for collision detection with weapons melee, i.e., you are still fighting with your hands and feet and the weapon does not extend your reach.  Probably we'd want it to do that if we changed holstering behavior, so you at least have a reach advantage when you're holding a rifle you can't holster.

We seriously don't know much about MP balance yet, and it's definitely going to be very different from SP balance.

Yes, this can't be denied.  Probably it would be better to make the cooldown fix optional for SP, if possible.  As I said, that can be done on Windows if the Daodan's creators want to, but not on the Mac at this time.

Furthermore, regulating which guns are available on each map, and using multiple powerful guns to balance each other out, are going to be very powerful (and very non-drastic) tools for balance.

It's certainly the case that mappers have responsibility for creating balanced gameplay.  However, I see weapons balancing as being notably more important for Oni than for most games, for two reasons:

1. Melee and gunplay in Oni were designed to complement each other.  Most games have one weak melee attack, or a strong melee attack, but it's only useable in short-range situations and usually is a last resort.  Whereas in Oni, weapons that ruthlessly murder you when you're running around enjoying melee are going to make the game less fun.  However, the solution may simply be to limit ammo.  Speaking of which...

2. Most games can limit the use of the map's most powerful weapon by limiting the ammo supply for it.  This is not possible in Oni, because there are only two ammo types.  Therefore, it's more important that we ensure that one clip of ammo does not equal "minor annoyance" when placed in one gun, and "deathbringer" when placed in another.  Otherwise no one will want to even have the lesser weapons on the map, wasting their limited ammo.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#21 8/5/10 14:15

Paff
Member
From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Gumby wrote:

Try pressing F and V while holding a gun. smile

Whoah, I didn't know about F! That certainly makes guns a lot better in melee combat... Thanks. smile

V isn't doing anything for me though.

Iritscen wrote:

It's certainly the case that mappers have responsibility for creating balanced gameplay.  However, I see weapons balancing as being notably more important for Oni than for most games, for two reasons:

1. Melee and gunplay in Oni were designed to complement each other.  ...

2. Most games can limit the use of the map's most powerful weapon by limiting the ammo supply for it. ... Therefore, it's more important that we ensure that one clip of ammo does not equal "minor annoyance" when placed in one gun, and "deathbringer" when placed in another.  Otherwise no one will want to even have the lesser weapons on the map, wasting their limited ammo.

To deal with 1, I don't see any problem with some combination of the following:
- allowing hosts to limit ammo to something like one clip per every 2-4 lives
- allowing hosts to make force shields available sometimes
- allowing hosts to turn Mercury Bows and SBGs off sometimes

To deal with 2, I don't see any problem with just giving the hosts the ability to turn the Mercury Bows and SBGs off when they don't feel like using them.

I think fixing these problems by letting hosts configure what's available is way less drastic than modifying the game mechanics, and also less drastic than changing the guns.

Last edited by Paff (8/5/10 14:17)

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#22 8/5/10 14:22

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 22/10/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Actually, I'm not in favor of giving hosts that much latitude.  Too many options for hosts can be a bad thing.  Then it takes longer to set up your games because you need to think about each map you choose and whether it has too many guns of a certain sort.  Then everyone who joins the game in the lobby argues about which options the host should use.  Then mappers will complain that their carefully designed maps are being broken by poor hosting choices.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#23 8/5/10 14:28

Paff
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From: Karatu, Arusha, Tanzania
Registered: 18/4/10
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Couldn't you just have reasonable defaults for each map, then, and make sure some maps have SBGs/Mercury Bows and some maps don't? Or even don't give the hosts that many options for configuring each map, but make sure there are maps available in whatever configuration someone would want?

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#24 8/5/10 15:16

Dirk Gently
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From: Boston, MA
Registered: 12/6/09
Website

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

Small maps should not, maps that have long distances or open fight spaces should. One way that halo handles this is allowing you to setup what sort of weapons to spawn, but in default types of game like CTF or slayer will not include heavy weapons because they are impractical. For example, the MB would be an impractical weapon on a map like the warehouse or the TCTF headquarters because there is no real practical space to use it. If you were on a map like the Airport runway area, that would be better for both the MB and SBG.

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#25 8/5/10 16:33

Jon God
Member
Registered: 17/1/07

Re: Debates And Stuff - Current Topic: Desired Changes In Oni

I am going to toss my opinion out here. I don't think Oni is balanced well for single player, most likely due to time constraints in development.

There are some weapons I rarely, or never used in single player do to their overall ineffectiveness. I would list Scram cannon, Hughes Black Adder and Phase Stream Projector as weapons unbalanced on the weak side.

There was no point playing through the game I felt "I wish I had one of those weapons", if I had nothing I would use them, but otherwise, I wouldn't touch them.

As on the overly powerful weapons, I would list Super Ball Gun, and Mercury Bow. While you don't think it playing single player, noticing how much better than they other gun, besides those two, none of the guns are one hit kills. Imagine a player with a bow against someone with a Black Adder, you know who is going to win 90% in any situation.

I am positive we will need to balance the weapons better for multiplayer, otherwise, we will end up like Halo 1, where everyone uses 3 weapons, and the rest of the arsenal get ignored for the most part. Some people like this, just getting good at a few weapons, and having it be a battle of skill between weapon users, and that's fine. But the issue is, that with games solely relying long range weapons, SBG/Bow, Oni's hand to hand combat will most likely fall to the wayside, and only be used once in a while.

To me this doesn't sound like fun, SBG/Bow fights, and very little of everything else. Now, if you limit the number of these weapons on maps, it will just make whoever has them have an extreme advantage.

I can understand if people like single player the way it is, it's been that way for the past 9 years, after all, but when it comes to making multiplayer something actually fun. . . You are going to have to make compromises, you can't just keep it exactly bungie, or you risk taking all the fun out of it; Bungie didn't have time to balance it for multiplayer, after all.


A good point, however, is that, without any way to test it, we don't know what sort of tweak will work well with multiplayer. We could start making changes to balance single player, but we can't be sure these changes will really work for multiplayer, basically, anything changed for multiplayer right now is shooting in the dark.


I will summerize my opionions a little bit here:

• We WILL need to balance the weapons/and possibly hand to hand better for multiplayer.
• We DO NOT currently know what will need to be balanced, and what human players will do that will make certain weapons/attacks unbalanced.

-JG


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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