It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

Samer · 10/16/09 02:10

I like it and I can personally make a lot of them happen.

The hydra I was working on something similar as an extra new outfit for Shini-bot ( more terminator like) but i can make her a new character.

i WANT TO ADD SOMETHING : The black master chiefs .. aren't they a bit redundant ? (the ones that all look exactly the same but still have different TRACs ) those aren't supposed to have anything with the BGI characters right ?

if so I think the Black chief and white chief with custom move setts i made are a better more unique candidate

Last edited by Samer (10/16/09 02:10)

Leus · 10/16/09 02:10

same for the comguy ninja

Def give them the comguy voice; they sound too weird with the ninja voice and regular face.

Edit: New entry for the Abominations:

ABOMINATIONS
Some of the BGI's experiments go wrong but are still put to use. The abominations are disfigured, unruly things that are unleashed into battle like lions in the Colosseum. [Another subset of bosses; not evil, just tormented and savage. Ranging abilities and appearances, like the Prodigal.]

Last edited by Leus (10/16/09 02:10)

Leus · 10/16/09 02:10

The black master chiefs .. aren't they a bit redundant ? (the ones that all look exactly the same but still have different TRACs ) those aren't supposed to have anything with the BGI characters right ?

I kinda liked the fact that they all looked similar and tried to use that for confusion purposes in my mod. But I agree that the game would probably ultimately be better if the enemies were more unique and diverse.

Gumby · 10/16/09 03:10

Ok, I'm just have this to say right now...

...please don't use major genetic modifications. Your ideas are a bit...out there. For instance, giving non Daodanized characters super special abilities. For that matter, BGI doesn't use Chrysalises. They are more interested in getting rid of the dangerous ones that already exist instead of breeding more madness. From what we know, they aren't into genetic experimentation, we already have two factions that do that (TCTF and Syndicate). Genetically enhanced strength is ok for a select few, but it shouldn't be widespread.

Some of your ideas are good (the "ganger" type thing would be nice as a miniboss of some sort), some others (rats, abominations, coordinators) are a bit too much.

EdT · 10/16/09 13:10

Wraith: Its possible, using textures, however, the AI will still "see" the wraith. Only the player cannot see the wraith.

Iritscen · 10/16/09 14:10

Somehow I missed a bunch of new posts in this thread. Okay, caught up now.

Nice work on the concepts, Leus. I think, if anything, you've given us too many ideas, but that's a good problem to have. You've basically conceptualized a game's worth of enemy types for use in one new level ^_^ BGI will appear in a couple other levels, but most of the action will be in the one new level, and it will be hard to fit all these guys in there.

I would be most inclined to go with the Wolves, Hydras, Hammers, Forces (needs a new name, though ), and maybe Coordinators. I'd have to pass on Wraiths because the idea's a little extreme (it's not very practical to create a soldier you can't see in a roll call, for one ^_^), and Shifters because that would make teleportation too common (so far that's just the domain of Mukade), plus it would be really tricky to pull off, and Gangers because the idea is a bit out there for Oni, and Rats because BGI isn't using the Daodan organism (that's about the one rule they do have), and Abominations because I always have a problem with games that have "disfigured" enemies that all look the same, and it would just be too much work to make unique models, and I can't really comment on Prodigals because the concept is so vague

Gumby, you're right that BGI wouldn't use Chrysalises, and that therefore it would be over the top to give these types too many superpowers. But don't forget that the Syndicate had dealings with Bertram Navarre, and they might be using his genetic discoveries on their troops.

Samer · 10/16/09 14:10

I'm making the 4 new agents in coats ... just before i go too far i had planned a mutated variant ... so that's absolutely not allowed ? can't the BGI have tried to implant chrysallis after they have mastered it to use against in their war against the chrysalli symbiotes ... kinda like that guy from xmen who wanted to kill all xmen but still he had some of them as bodyguards and who were completely alligned with him ^_^ ?

or for example chrysallis symbiotes who they caught and recruited

doesn't konoko say the syndicate and BGI are joined at the hip ? I always thought the BGi were kinda the master mind behind the syndicate but the syndicate took it too far.

also how hard is it for teleportation ? isn't it enough to add the particles to the oncc and give them mukade's combat id ?

Last edited by Samer (10/16/09 14:10)

Iritscen · 10/16/09 15:10

Samoko wrote:

I'm making the 4 new agents in coats

Oh, I think I just realized who you're talking about... do you mean the scientists in the second row here? I'm not sure how much we will do with them. At the most, all we will want are those models (either they're out there somewhere or we have to recreate the texture work), but they're just basic scientist dudes, not fighters.

can't the BGI have tried to implant chrysallis after they have mastered it to use against in their war against the chrysalli symbiotes

Sorry, no one "masters" the Chrysalis, not at this point in time. BGI sticks to methods like advanced technology and maybe a little genetic engineering. The Daodan represents a threat to the status quo, which they have a strong interest in maintaining.

or for example chrysallis symbiotes who they caught and recruited

I think you're making certain assumptions about how common it is to be a Chrysalis host. We only know of four hosts (only two for sure), and it's not even hinted that there are more.

doesn't konoko say the syndicate and BGI are joined at the hip ? I always thought the BGi were kinda the master mind behind the syndicate but the syndicate took it too far.

Well, Oni itself simply tells us nothing useful about BGI except that "joined at the hip" part. So a while back, geyser invented some new facts about BGI to give us a direction to go in. The current BGI story is based off that foundation. See the first section of this page for the details.

also how hard is it for teleportation ? isn't it enough to add the particles to the oncc and give them mukade's combat id ?

Nope. Mukade jumps to predetermined flags. Basically, the whole fight is rigged to take place on the rooftop. That's why he doesn't teleport around if you spawn him in other levels.

Samer · 10/16/09 15:10

Iritscen wrote:

Nope. Mukade jumps to predetermined flags. Basically, the whole fight is rigged to take place on the rooftop. That's why he doesn't teleport around if you spawn him in other levels.

I beg to differ have u tried my (final battle) mod ? i added muakde to the final battle and he teleports around the final battle with no problem whatsoever ... I just gave him the combat ID(not melee ID) he uses on the rooftops ...
and gave Barabus the combat id that he uses in other levels and he regenerated with no trouble too .. and it was just a simple editing of the BINACO.. character file no bsl or anything complex

u can see for urself if u want.

2 - Since geyser made all that concepts ... one person made these concepts ... why not add to the concept ... change a bit ... why restrict to one idea of one person, I mean who really decided hw the story should be ?

3- they are not supposed to be scientists I read it in the wiki somewhere or in the forum that they were the special agents much like the agents of the matirx I will put the link once i find it
and why are they givn tracs of muro & tanker if they're just scientist dudes

4- aren't we adding to oni and trying to make a completion for it ? or are we trying to achieve the original concepts of the developers .

I think we're restraining ourselves a lot .. by predefined ideas instead of creating new ones.

EDIT : I'm making them u like them use them u don't like them don't ^_^ they can have other purposes and u can consider them as a new class of BGI agents. they won't look like scientists when i'm done with them

EDIT 2 : http://wiki.oni2.net/AE:BGI here we go scroll down to the part titled executives.

Quoting from the wiki :

These are the guys who coordinate the covert operations of the troopers and also interface with representatives of the Syndicate, TCTF and WCG (mixing diplomacy and intimidation: references in popular culture include the Men In Black, Matrix Agents, etc). Thus they are effectively the BGI's "face", and since some of them are skilled diplomats it is hard to tell what power and influence these individuals possess within their own organization. It seems unlikely that they are merely field agents carrying out orders. Rather, they are cooperative masterminds, perpetuating the spirit of the pre-Muro Syndicate a.k.a. the Network and that of its Council a.k.a. the Hydra. The boards of directors, if any, are a mere facade, offering the image of a law-abiding industry.

Their badges feature the BGI logo as well as the AVATARA symbol. These act as a deterrent against TCTF troops, because AVATARA amounts to absolute clearance and immunity. The white/shining eyes are a form of borderline-illegal surgery (cyborgization).
Model

Model-wise, the executives are merely retextured copies of male scientists so far. Animations can be borrowed from any comguy-derived TRAC, notably Tankers and Muro. Four variants are available in the newest version of the level0_BGI plugin.

Last edited by Samer (10/16/09 15:10)

Iritscen · 10/16/09 16:10

Oh, wow, okay. I guess I was wrong about Mukade.

2 - Since geyser made all that concepts ... one person made these concepts ... why not add to the concept ... change a bit ... why restrict to one idea of one person, I mean who really decided hw the story should be ?

Well, somebody had to, and geyser got here long before we did. He also spent a lot of time thinking about Oni -- more than all of us in this thread put together, I'd wager.

3- they are not supposed to be scientists

Yeah, I forgot, they are executives. Still not supposed to be fighters, though. Their only appearance will involve standing or sitting around and talking.

4- aren't we adding to oni and trying to make a completion for it ? or are we trying to achieve the original concepts of the developers .

The former, by doing the latter.

I think we're restraining ourselves a lot .. by predefined ideas instead of creating new ones.

What specifically do you feel is restraining us?

Mukade · 10/16/09 17:10

Argh i missed alot ummm

Leus, i love your characters, i had a thought about the wraith and thought about redoing the cloaking *texure* to be maybe more smooth, less visible, and maybe give off a flash when she attacks that fades after a second...

Samer, you said you were doing something on animations?? Did u somehow manage to extract one?

Samer · 10/16/09 17:10

no i meant i was just working on making new combos and new moves from existing aniamtions ... like I've done before with other characters (shini's 3 punches) ... not create new animations .. create new move sets and combos. if u can create new animations that would be great but ... it's harder than it sounds u should be prepared for that

Mukade · 10/16/09 17:10

well im prepared to at least try... but as far as i can tell from some older posts, people have not yet been able to extract them

Iritscen · 10/16/09 18:10

I've successfully extracted animations. I couldn't import them into Blender properly, but they seemed fine in and of themselves. Use something of the format:

onisplit -extract:dae folder_name -anim:KONCOMidle1 ONCCkonoko_generic.oni

Don't bother using this command from the directory in the AE where you find the ONCC files, the current hierarchy of folders breaks it. To extract the above Konoko animation, for example, I had to copy the following files into the same folder:

ONCCkonoko_generic.oni
(and ONCVKonoko.oni?)
TRACkonoko_animations.oni
TRACkonokocore_animations.oni
TRACkonokolev1_animations.oni
TRAMKONCOMidle1.oni
TRBSkonoko_body_high.oni
TRMAkonoko002_high_texture_generic.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_bicep.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_calf_nobknee.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_chestpack.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_face.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_foot.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_mid.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_neck.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_pelvis.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_shoulder.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_thigh_horiz.oni
TXMPIteration001%2FKS_wrist.oni
TXMPIteration001%2Fks_fist.oni

EdT · 10/16/09 18:10

Mukade: You can extract a specific animation for a specific character. The OniSpilit Gui will do that for you. Then using XSI Mod Tools you can view the animation. However, getting a modified animation back into Oni is still very hard to do. But I'm sure that one day we will be able to do that.

EDIT: Iritscen, I find it easier to simply move the level0_Textures and level0_Animations into the level0_Characters folder. OniSplit will find the TXMPs and TRAMs in those folders.

Last edited by EdT (10/16/09 18:10)

Iritscen · 10/16/09 18:10

Oh, well if you insist on making it easy ^_^

Gumby · 10/16/09 18:10

Using XSI currently gives you the best chance of a successful animation reimport.

EdT · 10/16/09 18:10

Since we're off topic anyways

From the wiki for OniSplit

A more or less complete animation importer. This one deserves some notes:
-unlike other importers that produce .oni files this one produces and .xml file (similar to the one you get when exporting a TRAM) when you do
onisplit -create:tram target_dir animation.dae
in the target dir you'll get a TRAManimation.xml file.
You need to add some stuff to that file to make it actually work as an animation. In particular the animation type, from/to states and varient needs to be set.
-For all I know this works with animations exported from Oni and modified in Softimage. If you come up with a completely new animation it should work as long as the skeleton is similar to the one used in Oni.
-Note that the geometry that is present inside the Collada file is used to compute the "vertical extents" so it better be the same or close to the one the animation is intended for.
-The biggest problem are the attacks. While it's not difficult to add attacks to the xml file, computing the necessary "extents" is not going to be easy. I guess in the end I'll have to add some command to OniSplit to do it.

So once those commands to compute the necessary extents are added to OniSpilt, then it will be easier.

Leus · 10/16/09 20:10

Gumby: I tried to make them all unique and interesting with the abilities because what's the point of just creating a bunch more regular fighters?

I'd have to pass on Wraiths because the idea's a little extreme (it's not very practical to create a soldier you can't see in a roll call, for one ^_^)

Aw, that was possibly my favorite one besides Hydras. I mean I think like some faint accenting around like certain edges of the arms/legs/body would be good, but as it stands the current cloaking is too visible IMO, and once you kill them they re-appear which wouldn't work with the nudity. I think it's a really cool enemy IMO, because you'd have to like listen for them or just pay real close attention and strike back quick when they strike, and if you get 'em for just a few hits you'll likely kill them. But otherwise they'll regen... Maybe that'll make a noise. I dunno, I just am really attached to the idea lol.

and Shifters because that would make teleportation too common (so far that's just the domain of Mukade), plus it would be really tricky to pull off

I was mainly thinking of just having them use shadow-dash often, and maybe just like teleport into battle for a flashy entrance but not really all over the place. But I'm not super attached to this idea.

and Gangers because the idea is a bit out there for Oni

Yeah, I'm not attached to them either. I was just trying to, like you said, give you guys too many ideas.

and Abominations because I always have a problem with games that have "disfigured" enemies that all look the same, and it would just be too much work to make unique models, and I can't really comment on Prodigals because the concept is so vague

The Abominations/the Prodigal are supposed to just be setups for a few boss battles that I didn't really have super specific ideas for, but I figured the BGI needed some bosses.

And yeah, I had no idea what to call Forces. I was originally gonna call them "Forcers" or "Pushers" or "Pullers" lol. I just went with it.

Basically my personal favorite ideas of mine that also seem totally doable were Wraiths, Hydras and "Forces."

Anyone got any more?

Iritscen · 10/16/09 21:10

I think it's a really cool enemy IMO, because you'd have to like listen for them or just pay real close attention and strike back quick when they strike, and if you get 'em for just a few hits you'll likely kill them.

Well, it's not as much fun to fight an invisible enemy as you might think... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD_hf7AB2YU#t=7m10s

I was mainly thinking of just having them use shadow-dash often, and maybe just like teleport into battle for a flashy entrance but not really all over the place. But I'm not super attached to this idea.

Well, that might be a suitable use for the shadow dashing, actually. I might change my mind on that one.

and Gangers because the idea is a bit out there for Oni
Yeah, I'm not attached to them either. I was just trying to, like you said, give you guys too many ideas.

I will say this, though, Leus -- look at this console: http://wiki.oni2.net/Quotes/Consoles#Picasso_Island . Navarre was able to split someone's spinal cord. I was trying to figure out a way to maybe build on that in the direction of Gangers, just not quite as extreme as what you suggested. If you think of anything, let us know.

The Abominations/the Prodigal are supposed to just be setups for a few boss battles that I didn't really have super specific ideas for, but I figured the BGI needed some bosses.

Well, the Iron Demon will be the final boss, and we don't want to overload the level with strong enemies or boss encounters (one level like that is enough!), but it would be reasonable to have a sort of mid-boss encounter; either a few strong guys or one really strong guy.

Leus · 10/16/09 22:10

Oh yeah I wasn't even just thinking one level, I was thinking of like a whole BGI story arc or something, just potentially. Not saying we're necessarily gonna do all that, just thought it'd be cool.

Edit: I hope the Iron Demon is fun to fight; I can't really imagine how it would be.

Last edited by Leus (10/16/09 22:10)

Iritscen · 10/16/09 23:10

Well, as I oh-so-concisely replied to Samoko before, our goal is to complete Oni by restoring what the devs cut. They only cut one BGI level, therefore our goal is to restore it. Would a BGI arc be fun? Sure. But it's more practical, and easier to fit into the story, to just add the one level. All of Oni takes place in like a week, so we don't want to derail the main story. So the BGI storyline that will go up at some point fairly soon describes how to modify existing levels a little bit to add hints and appearances of BGI, but only one totally new level would be created.

The Iron Demon fight will be cool, that's all I need to say. Actually, saying more than that would be premature because plans change, and sometimes we have to scale something back because the idea is too ambitious. If we've learned anything from Bungie West, it's not to promise what isn't as good as done.

Mukade · 10/17/09 00:10

Blah, Irit, Onisplit only sends Animations back from Dae into .Oni, but not the other way

and ive tried to do this before, there was a thread i have all that stuff (actually im doing TRAMNINCOM_taunt but i have all the stuff) and it just says blah blah blah not found... or sumthin

Input files not found....

erm..

C:\>Onisplit.exe -extract:dae <Target_Folder> -anim:<Anim_name> #does this require a path or you just write down the animation?? <ONCC> #Does this require a path?

EDIT: Okay, yes you can extract anim using the 3D section of the GUI, but i input the paths and put in animation NINCOMtaunt1 and it tells me

Animation TRAMNINCOMtaunt1 was not found

Last edited by Mukade (10/17/09 00:10)

Samer · 10/17/09 01:10

Leus a lot of the characters u mentioned can be done .. we can work on them together (over a big span of time ^_^) (I'm interested in the hydra most and the hammers) even if the AE decides they are not really suitable for the BGI storyline they had in mind .. we can use them as just new characters ... maybe syndicate maybe even a fourth party

Leus · 10/17/09 02:10

Yeah man I dig that. Dude for some reason I feel like the Hydra would be bayd ayss. We'd have to give her a melee profile to utilize kick moves more, maybe only using punches to stun to use a kick. And increase kick damage. And then I dunno if we could legitimately make her use her high-jump ability usefully.

Oni Central Forum

#26 10/16/09 02:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#27 10/16/09 02:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#28 10/16/09 02:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#29 10/16/09 03:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#30 10/16/09 13:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#31 10/16/09 14:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#32 10/16/09 14:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#33 10/16/09 15:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#34 10/16/09 15:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#35 10/16/09 16:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#36 10/16/09 17:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#37 10/16/09 17:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#38 10/16/09 17:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#39 10/16/09 18:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#40 10/16/09 18:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#41 10/16/09 18:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#42 10/16/09 18:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#43 10/16/09 18:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#44 10/16/09 20:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#45 10/16/09 21:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#46 10/16/09 22:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#47 10/16/09 23:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#48 10/17/09 00:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#49 10/17/09 01:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

#50 10/17/09 02:10

Re: It's time, guys. (BGI concepts discussion)

Board footer