Anyone here bored besides me?

Leus · 10/14/09 00:10

Christianity has not formed our society, power-hunger colonizers who call themselves Christians shaped our society. Honestly, if you look at the moral codes of Christianity, the rich societies of the world are basically anti-Christ. I dunno how it is in Russia, but murder, deceit and destruction are still executed by Americans these days, but it happens largely on foreign soil and is more and more executed by corporations but supported by the government because of their mutually beneficial relationship... Nowhere in there can even a stitch of Christianity be derived. Jesus said "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to pass through the gates of heaven" paraphrased. This is because to HAVE more than others, OBVIOUSLY, others have to have LESS. To be wealthy, live comfortably and luxuriously is the REASON people suffer and starve in other parts of the world. European colonizers sparked and perpetuated the horrific mass conflict in Africa, for instance, about half a millennium ago and we'll still sell them weapons and buy goods they procure from torture and slavery of their own people and give money to their governments as an attempt to LOOK GOOD on the political scene with "foreign aid" but which really serves for just further oppression to their people. The same thing has been happening to Latin America, but for a shorter amount of time and coming more into the global age...

Anyway, I'm sure it doesn't feel good to be under terrorist threat, but power structures are the reason the world is a dishonest and hostile place. Instead of fighting terrorists, we need to begin to figure out how to fight the grander-scale problem that will eliminate anyone's need to want to steal, rob or kill.

T_W_D · 10/14/09 01:10

Anyway, I'm sure it doesn't feel good to be under terrorist threat, but power structures are the reason the world is a dishonest and hostile place. Instead of fighting terrorists, we need to begin to figure out how to fight the grander-scale problem that will eliminate anyone's need to want to steal, rob or kill.

Are you a Communist?

There's no way to eliminate this need. Same as there's no way to make everybody equal - they've already tried it here, and consequences were harsh. It's human nature - either you dominate or are dominated over. I'd prefer to dominate.

You, too, are a part of this system. You belong to "rich white domination" side, and if you try welcoming the other side with open arms, the'll just laugh and maybe shoot you a little.

Leus · 10/14/09 10:10

I definitely think communism is a better idea than capitalism for the current world, but the whole structure of it could use a little work. Also, communism hasn't been legitimately exercised. It's been attempted to be implemented by dictators, and any position of great power like that dehumanizes its possessor and ultimately is likely to make them power-hungry just as capitalism does.

It's not human nature, it's biological nature; it's survival of the fittest. But we have the cognitive capacity to OVERCOME that nature, and we've known for at least 20,000 years exactly what that means and what we have to do. Still, only now is it becoming not only more apparent but more imperative as we are now super globalized and industrial and have the legitimate potential to both save the world or destroy it.

Yes, I am part of the system. It's bred into me and I'll never get away from it, but I've taken a few weak steps towards a better existence and I hope to take many more in my life. My best friend is doing amazing; he's in Guatemala providing international accompanyment to family members of indigenous victims of a CIA-sparked genocide. I don't know if I'll ever be doing that, but the least I'm going to do is transition into a low-impact life; maybe join a monastery, that'd be cool.

Basically, case in point, not only is eliminating dominance possible, it is the only feasible option for our continued survival as a race. Besides, oppression is dehumanizing to both the oppressed and the oppressor; we'd all be happier if we were on everyone's side instead of in a life-long race to beat everyone else to the top, know that they were on our side instead of trying to figure out the next most ingenious way to screw us over for their own gain which is the world we all are forced to live in today.

Gumby · 10/14/09 11:10

The problem is that you cannot eliminate dominance. There will always be dominant people, and that is both a blessing and a curse.

3llense'g · 10/14/09 11:10

I'm with Anakin on this one: democracy is only good until you find the right leader.

T_W_D · 10/14/09 12:10

Also, communism hasn't been legitimately exercised

Of course. People won't accept the idea of throwing away their possessions and achievements unless they have nothing to throw away.

But we have the cognitive capacity to OVERCOME that nature

Do you know at least one man who really did? It's like being a strict vegan. You may convince yourself you hate meat and don't really need proteins, but your organism knows better, and if you continue restraining it, your health will be broken.

If a person doesn't wish to dominate in common things like money, looks etc, he'll try to dominate in something else. In being a fighter aganist the community, for example. Or even being a loser.

Whatever, to me all this transhuman idea about overcoming something that's a part of you is totally wrong. Either one won't succeed in this idea (most likely) or he'll damage his psychic and life. Of course, it may be achieved with science, but that is even more wrong.

maybe join a monastery, that'd be cool

I've heard about monastery life. It's not cool. You won't be allowed to play Oni, at the very least.

it is the only feasible option for our continued survival as a race

All the centuries of our existance were based on dominance. Stopping the competition -> stopping the development -> stagnation and death. Trust a person with historical education.

we'd all be happier if we were on everyone's side instead of in a life-long race to beat everyone else to the top

Say what? No pro sports, then? Give me another globe!

adorage · 10/14/09 12:10

Leus wrote:

Good point Gumby, although I'll be honest, I think the only reason that that's a bad idea is because it makes people working for that cause LOOK crazy. I've been tempted a couple times by the concept of just an all-out assault on the oppressive and destructive powers of the world, but I know that that won't work BECAUSE they are powers. If someone is attacked, they have the political right to fight back, and if you attack someone bigger and stronger than you they will crush you. That's how colonial nations justified taking land from indigenous people; they harassed them until the indigenous people attacked, then fought back and killed them and stole their land calling them "savages." The same way, if people working for a good cause get violent and destructive against the dominators, the dominators will crush the people--though in this day and age it would be through persecution instead of genocide, of course. Nonviolent resistance is largely the most effective tried and true practice for success against oppressive forces in the world so far because there are still the NEED for political consideration; in other words, you can't attack and crush someone who is not fighting you physically in the first place. And change depends on the masses, so education about the issues is the most powerful tool for change, not destruction of the oppressing class and their destructive means.

You have many good points here, but I'm not sure nonviolent resistance has really proven to be as successful as you claim. The most important factor in nonviolent resistance is that you need to have many, many people on your side. Also, employing nonviolent means means that you are ultimately aiming for negotiations. And in many cases that is indeed the way to go, when it comes to environmentalism however, my hopes of a "cooperative" solution become less every day. Actually, I think it's the subject on which I think this kind of solution is the least likely one.

On the subject of human nature, I'd like to encourage everyone who is interested in that to read some ethnological books. We can't look at the way people in our culture (historically speaking, a very unusual one) behave and then just conclude that this is the way people are meant to operate by nature. It's like having a garden full of roses and concluding that every flower is red.
There are cultures that reward egotism, there are those that reward sharing. There are cultures that are based on competition, there are those that are based on cooperation. Ours is one that fits into the former category in each sentence, but there are in any case those which don't as well. The question of how to transform culture is, in my view, a more tricky one, but if we pretend that this - the status quo - is the only way people have ever lived, it makes it seem even harder than is justified. Also, it legitimises the way this culture operates (because it's "the way nature intended us to be". Not very different from the concept of a "god-given order of things", only with a pretense of scientific accuracy)

(which btw brings us back to genocide. Making people forget that a particular way of living ever existed kills a culture as surely as a massacre of its members)

demos_kratos · 10/14/09 14:10

well, folks, we're not bored now, are we? ^_^;

better late than never:

Last edited by demos_kratos (10/14/09 14:10)

Gumby · 10/14/09 14:10

OY. Less religion bashing, more serious discussion.

levka1 · 10/14/09 15:10

Anyway its a fact that in hard times religion can be a savior, its also true that without religion, much less people would die, or wars get started. Religion is both and good depends how you looks on it.
I really was amazed, when the Us corp marines, took arab hostage with them, and asked him few questions, he refused to answer, so they took him to Lie detector, the thing is, he was so old fashion and believed in Allah with all of his heart, the lie detector didnt get anything from him in the end, like he just wanted to say: i will say the truth only to Allah. Dunno.. This is story killed me about the Islam, i mean how strong faith must be when even our technology cant find the truth.

Lithium · 10/14/09 17:10

k u want seroius?
3x + 2= 11
Well maybe that one was too easy....serioulsy easy. Meh we should make this a random topic

Iritscen · 10/14/09 18:10

You make every topic a random topic.

Mukade · 10/14/09 18:10

so tru.... but this topic really isnt on anything specific... so its hard to go offtopic, i mostly avoid this post tho

Leus · 10/14/09 19:10

The problem is that you cannot eliminate dominance. There will always be dominant people, and that is both a blessing and a curse.

Just because there always HAVE been dominant people does not mean that there always WILL be dominant people. Sure, there will always be stronger and weaker people, but they doesn't mean that the former will necessarily extort the latter. Assuming "this is just the way it is and always will be" is basically saying "we're screwed, let's live it up!" Which is a philosophy MANY people identify with, I realize. But the thing is, we're NOT necessarily screwed. It's just easier and more ego-fulfilling to believe we are. And the "living it up" is what's gotten us to this point to begin with.

Of course. People won't accept the idea of throwing away their possessions and achievements unless they have nothing to throw away.

Things like that don't matter; they're just what we try to fill our meaningless lives with. The ONLY things that truly mean anything are suffering and love, and right now the meaning in the vast majority of the world is derived from the former. Anyway, what I'm saying is if people were like "alright, time for asceticism and community living," I'd throw my computer out the window, and I know there's nothing special about me. I really should anyway, and I'm not proud of the fact that I haven't. But acknowledging what I need to do is an important first step.

Also veganism is ultimately healthier than omnivorism if executed properly.

Whatever, to me all this transhuman idea about overcoming something that's a part of you is totally wrong.

It's actually essential, because nature destroys itself. The dinosaurs rose to power but couldn't be sustained, stars burn brighter and brighter until they burn out, and if the human race isn't at the critical point in their maturity right now than I don't know when we will be. The thing is, the dinosaurs and the stars don't have the cognitive capacity to choose not to fade away. I'd like humanity to see what we're truly capable of, and it won't happen if everyone is convinced we're destined to kill ourselves. It's not about our NATURE, it's about our MINDSET. FAITH is key. Without it, we are doomed.

when it comes to environmentalism however, my hopes of a "cooperative" solution become less every day.

Like I was just saying man, hope and faith are the KEY. DON'T give up that hope, that is THE most important thing you can do. Even if you feel logically it is totally unjustified, KEEP FAITH ALIVE. Faith and logic are too separate things, and to know truth you ultimately need faith. Faith in the good in your fellow humans' hearts and that they still have the chance to make the right choices yet.

We can't look at the way people in our culture (historically speaking, a very unusual one) behave and then just conclude that this is the way people are meant to operate by nature. It's like having a garden full of roses and concluding that every flower is red.

I love that. It is insane how normal we feel our lives are when the majority of biological humans never even saw a road. We live in a CRAZY sci fi fantasy world RIGHT NOW.

There are cultures that reward egotism, there are those that reward sharing.

That also depends how you define "reward," though. Personally, I look around at my fellow Americans and see emptiness and despair in a world of excessive comfort, and I believe it is because we KNOW deep down what this social structure means for the quality of life on Earth in general... To get where we are, we've had to hurt and exploit so many of our fellow creatures on this planet, and to try and compensate for our sickening feelings of unknown origin we try to come up with more ways to entertain and satisfy ourselves, but that just causes us to hurt and exploit MORE.

Also, it legitimises the way this culture operates (because it's "the way nature intended us to be". Not very different from the concept of a "god-given order of things", only with a pretense of scientific accuracy)

Exactly. Nature DID set us up to consume, destroy and collapse. Everything in nature is built on that ebb and flow, rise and fall wave pattern. But there is no MEANING behind this pattern anywhere but in the lives of sentient beings. This meaning is what negates the necessity for us to just keep consuming and destroying until we DO collapse. And of course we'll all be gone some day, but that day doesn't have to be so soon.

Lithium · 10/14/09 20:10

meh idk this topic is actually pretty interesting cuz we dont really have to focus on a single object. But still its nice to lay back in a while/

Leus · 10/14/09 20:10

I used to ignore this topic until it became a crazy radical debate.

Gumby · 10/14/09 21:10

Just because there always HAVE been dominant people does not mean that there always WILL be dominant people. Sure, there will always be stronger and weaker people, but they doesn't mean that the former will necessarily extort the latter. Assuming "this is just the way it is and always will be" is basically saying "we're screwed, let's live it up!" Which is a philosophy MANY people identify with, I realize. But the thing is, we're NOT necessarily screwed. It's just easier and more ego-fulfilling to believe we are. And the "living it up" is what's gotten us to this point to begin with.

I don't mean that, what I mean is that our desire to excel is what makes humans strong.

Also veganism is ultimately healthier than omnivorism if executed properly.

Omnivorism is just as healthy as veganism if executed properly.

Exactly. Nature DID set us up to consume, destroy and collapse. Everything in nature is built on that ebb and flow, rise and fall wave pattern. But there is no MEANING behind this pattern anywhere but in the lives of sentient beings. This meaning is what negates the necessity for us to just keep consuming and destroying until we DO collapse. And of course we'll all be gone some day, but that day doesn't have to be so soon.

In my opinion, the purpose of life is to find that meaning. Find something you are passionate about, that helps the people of the world.

I don't believe we will be gone soon, short of a devestating event (nuclear war, etc.).

Lithium · 10/14/09 21:10

Leus wrote:

I used to ignore this topic until it became a crazy radical debate.

me too but dang its chaos here. Well time to lay back and wait for a time to strike

Leus · 10/14/09 22:10

I don't mean that, what I mean is that our desire to excel is what makes humans strong.

True, but we need to reevaluate our definitions of both "strength" and "excellence." At this point I believe we're holding ourselves back.

Omnivorism is just as healthy as veganism if executed properly. wink

I'm not saying you're gonna be unhealthy eating meat or anything. But anyway, on top of health there are also moral and ecological reasons for veganism. I guess I won't go too far into that, nobody usually seems to want to hear it.

In my opinion, the purpose of life is to find that meaning. Find something you are passionate about, that helps the people of the world.

That would be to find love, I believe. And to find love would mean to want to help everyone else find love, too.

I don't believe we will be gone soon, short of a devestating event (nuclear war, etc.).

As resources--including drinking water soon--are stretched thin, massive war is a very feasible potential. However, I don't believe we would let it get to that point... I just have too much faith, I feel that if we realized that massive war was necessary to get what we wanted, we'd change what we wanted... I dunno if that's true, but I feel that's how it'll happen.

However, I think our environmental damage is also at a critical point, and I can easily see that getting beyond our control because its consequences aren't easily seen in time. Maybe we won't die out because of it... Who knows?

Lithium · 10/14/09 22:10

"That would be to find love, I believe. And to find love would mean to want to help everyone else find love, too"
plus if u play this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0H8YHAuaNg
makes me cry 'sob sob' I mean it i wanna go back in time and um beat myself
hey i got feelings too
damn u Leus and ur smart references. Now everything is gonna be depressing...er?
But now lets talk about...um Succesors. Yea Who would u guys recommend if gumby and iritscen left us?

Last edited by Lithium (10/14/09 23:10)

T_W_D · 10/15/09 04:10

i mean how strong faith must be when even our technology cant find the truth

That's because, actually, faith is not about keeping you up in hard times. Faith is about contact. A contact with God, or gods, or what else, and this contact brings delight. Ever read "Chapaev and Pustota"?

Assuming "this is just the way it is and always will be" is basically saying "we're screwed, let's live it up!"

No. It's the weak who are screwed.

Things like that don't matter; they're just what we try to fill our meaningless lives with

OK. Let the ones who love the idea throw away their possessions, leave the houses they live in and go somewhere into the desert. And we'd continue to fill our utterly meaningless lives with money, fame and the other totally unimportant stuff.

Also veganism is ultimately healthier than omnivorism if executed properly.

Probably, when all you do is sitting in front of the computer.

Besides, if we were intended to be vegans, then why can we digest meat? Why aren't human guts more like those of a cow or rabbit? And if we weren't intended... you know my point.

But anyway, on top of health there are also moral and ecological reasons for veganism.

Like I heard somewhere, "If animals are not for eating, then why are they made from meat"?

if the human race isn't at the critical point in their maturity right now than I don't know when we will be

3000 years ago people, too, thought the end of the world is nigh. Anyway, everything collapses, sooner or later. Even rocks don't live forever.

As resources--including drinking water soon--are stretched thin, massive war is a very feasible potential.

They've tried to scare us with dwindling resouces and mass pollution, like, 60 years ago. I personally don't believe these theories anymore. Twist some facts, add some long scientific words, show up on TV, and there you are with yet another scenario of Armageddon. It's becoming boring. And if it really reaches the point of no return, I think we'll adapt.

Leus · 10/15/09 11:10

3000 years ago we didn't have globalized massive consumptive industrialization. Or nukes.

And just because we sometimes hunted animals to survive in our biological infancy doesn't mean eating meat is a good idea now. The fact stands that our bodies are significantly closer to the standard herbivore's than even the standard omnivore's, let alone carnivorism. The length of our intestine, the shape of our teeth, the size and shape of our jaw, our lack of natural weapons and tons of other physical characteristics that I won't bother to list off but that you can read about if you want indicate our herbivorism. And it's pretty much accepted that early man's diet consisted largely of nuts and berries, just as most apes these days.

And don't worry, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You seem pretty dead set on your sarcastic dismissal of the world's problems and your role in perpetuating them. I'm just responding for the sake of there being a response to your assertions.

T_W_D · 10/15/09 12:10

3000 years ago we didn't have globalized massive consumptive industrialization. Or nukes.

Then let's take 19th century England. Some dude thought the streets of London soon would drown in shit, because there were too much horses, and seriously warned about that. But instead of listening to him people invented cars.

The fact stands that our bodies are significantly closer to the standard herbivore's than even the standard omnivore's

Our organisms, btw, are really close to those of the pigs (pigs' organs can be implanted to humans and so on). And pigs are omnivores.

The length of our intestine, the shape of our teeth, the size and shape of our jaw, our lack of natural weapons

Our teeth and jaws kinda changed since then. They are simply intended for all kinds of food, not just meat or just berries. Our intestine is not that long compared to a goat, for example (and far shorter than any of the other primates). Again, we simply wouldn't be able to digest meat if we were herbivores. Also note that monkeys are omnivores (especially shimpanzees). They eat insects and small animals, they even hunt.

I personally feel bad without proteins. Bad, and weak, and hungry. Most girls would live on chocolate and diet yogurt; I can't. Maybe meat is a narcotic?

And it's pretty much accepted that early man's diet consisted largely of nuts and berries

Accepted by whom? And where?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything

Same as I. Just talking.

Leus · 10/15/09 13:10

Alright, cool

Anyway, not not eating meat and getting protein are not mutually exclusive.

And the concerns with our environmental destruction today aren't "some dude." It's the academic community.

Gumby · 10/15/09 13:10

"If animals are not for eating, then why are they made from meat?"

You just made my day, thanks.

By the way, early man was a hunter-gatherer. Meaning both meat and nuts\berries.

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