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#1 08/28/09 05:08

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

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#2 08/28/09 05:08

dream996
Member
Registered: 03/15/09

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i had been waitinGGGGGGGG 4 this so so so so long .....! im downloading it it right now! and sososososo looking forward to try it out !!!!

Last edited by dream996 (08/28/09 05:08)


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#3 08/28/09 05:08

dream996
Member
Registered: 03/15/09

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

the DevIL.dll is missing ! here

Last edited by dream996 (08/28/09 05:08)


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#4 08/28/09 08:08

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Arrrgh... I always forget one file sad

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#5 08/28/09 11:08

Shade
Member
From: OH, USA
Registered: 06/08/08

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Is this the full release or another demo?

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#6 08/28/09 13:08

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Lol, full release.  Maybe some time around 2015, right Pierre?  smile


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

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#7 08/28/09 14:08

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

For the "full release" I will need some people helping with new textures, new characters, new animations, new levels, new sounds. Since nobody ever contributed anything significant except Severed, then no, it is not a full release.

You are free to ignore it if you are not happy  big_smile 






...it's my hobby anyway, there will never be a "full release"... just more and more stuff...forever...hahahaha !  lol

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#8 08/28/09 14:08

Shade
Member
From: OH, USA
Registered: 06/08/08

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Pierre wrote:

For the "full release" I will need some people helping with new textures, new characters, new animations, new levels, new sounds. Since nobody ever contributed anything significant except Severed, then no, it is not a full release.

You are free to ignore it if you are not happy  big_smile 






...it's my hobby anyway, there will never be a "full release"... just more and more stuff...forever...hahahaha !  lol


Nice, If I ever get a new copy of Oni and if I get a few experience in texturing, etc. I will try to help as best I can.

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#9 08/30/09 06:08

dream996
Member
Registered: 03/15/09

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Shade....you can still play konoko payne even though your disc is broken

pirre ! have u triede to mke muro and mukade ???and ! the camera mode is a bit wired ! first ....when i move it for a while it will gona wired ,second ....how else can i move it ?????

Last edited by dream996 (08/30/09 06:08)


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#10 08/30/09 11:08

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

I don't have Mukade per-se but I have ninjas (e.g. in the demo mode). Mukade is just an extended version with more moves and a different character model. I do not have Muro yet, no.

The "camera mode" is not supposed to be used by anybody except me, so I don't mind if it's "weird" (it's not smile )

I don't understand whay you mean, "it will gona wired". What?

What I see on that screenshot is a camera gone out of the world, so nothing gets rendered. Since the frame buffer is not cleared (because it's useless for that indoor level), you see the remains of whatever was on-screen before. In "developer mode", press the J key to enable frame buffer clearing again, and fix this.

If you are lost outside the level with the camera, I recommend:
- disabling portals in the console
- zooming out the camera until you see something (use the middle mouse button, keep pressed and move mouse up and down. Or use the mouse wheel).

What I really recommend though is "don't mess with developer stuff"  roll

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#11 08/30/09 13:08

doctordulit
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 03/31/09

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Pierre wrote:

...it's my hobby anyway, there will never be a "full release"... just more and more stuff...forever...hahahaha !  lol

"Infinity level" lol


I have ice,and I can use it!!
Now I dont have ice,but I still can use it!!
Now I have ice,but i forgot how I can use it...xD

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#12 09/01/09 12:09

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Pierre wrote:

"don't mess with developer stuff"  roll

You do realize what kind of lowlife is bread nad butter of this forum, yes? Then you know that asking for such a thing as not messing with developer stuff is pure wish ^_^.

Getting a bit constructive, thank you for option to disable attack buffering, character is then IMO more under player's control. But please, pretty please finish guarding/blocking code. It is quite annoying that you cannot block, can only dodge. Maybe ( for testing purposes ) if character plays block animation and attack impacts during blocking, make attacker stagger a bit back? It would make it active parry feature instead of passive blocking.

Also, I have noticed that if character crouches and gets hit by special attack, it gets only stagered, not knockdowned. Can I ask why? IMO you should punish crouching, not reward. Crouching makes character sorta immune to lots of high attacks ( which are 75% of almost everybody's repertoir ), so it has to be made sure it will not be abused.

Next, I suggest you that throws should work a bit different: double click forward + punch or kick to lash one's hands forward a bit ( use a simple punch as a "grabing state" anim ). If it connects, do corresponding throw. I am asking for this because Oni style throws are a bit unpredictable. Again, this makes player being more in charge over what his character is doing. To avoid spamming, just make sure throw distance is still qite short as it is now.

But anyway, great work man.
                                                                                                                                       Loser
P.S.: And please enable player to choose how much should character jump  - you fixed power of the jump in this build, but it is kinda hard to jump on some obstacles now ( you jump over them ).

Last edited by Loser (09/01/09 12:09)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#13 09/01/09 12:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

I just played the August release this morning and, because I am kind of out of touch with what is done and what is WIP, I was wondering why I couldn't block, so I second Loser's request, as far as prioritizing the block feature.

Also, jumps onto objects are indeed difficult to pull off.  Don't forget to implement Oni's continual watching of the jump key to see how long it's held down by the player in order to determine the percentage of the max jumping height to use.

Anyway, it's looking good, albeit too hard for me to make much progress in, with my limited time.


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

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#14 09/01/09 14:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Hey guys, thanks for the useful comments smile

But please, pretty please finish guarding/blocking code. It is quite annoying that you cannot block, can only dodge. Maybe ( for testing purposes ) if character plays block animation and attack impacts during blocking, make attacker stagger a bit back? It would make it active parry feature instead of passive blocking.

You will be happy to hear that I just worked on blocking a bit - right after the release in fact. It has been on my TODO list since forever, but I never managed to implement something convincing. I totally agree that it is missing, and that it is important. That's why I did not want to rush it and I took my time for this.

I recently finished Ninja Gaiden 2 on Xbox (if you think KP is hard, you should try that one!). Blocking is extremely important there, and a big part of gameplay. During the whole game I was thinking "man, I need something like this in KP". I don't like the automatic blocking in ONI, it always felt a bit random to me. I would prefer an explicit "block" button, and that's what I've been trying to implement. However I had a few problems with this:
- minor issue: the blocking animations for Konoko look kind of bad
- bigger issue: I'm already out of keys in the PC version (it works better with an Xbox controller...)
- bigger issue: what blocking rules do you use? Do you block everything while the player is pressing the block button? Do you have unblockable attacks? etc

I don't think I found a great solution so far, but I'm definitely working on this. Right now I have a system where I reused the "target lock" key for blocking. It looks like this:

- if you press Ctrl (target lock key) the player locks on the nearest enemy, as usual in KP
while doing so, the block animation is NOT played

- however, if the enemy hits you while Ctrl is pressed, his attack is automatically blocked (provided it's not some unblockable move or something).

- throws can't be blocked at the moment so that's the catch: if you just stand in front of the targeted enemy you may block his attacks, but he can easily throw you away

- if you target lock/block just before the hit (current delay is 0.5 seconds), then not only you block the attack, but the enemy gets staggered. I wanted to use this later as the only way to defeat some bosses (who would otherwise be blocking pretty much everything).

That's the current system and that's the first one that feels "ok" when playing. I definitely want to do something to make KP more than a button masher.


Also, I have noticed that if character crouches and gets hit by special attack, it gets only stagered, not knockdowned. Can I ask why?

??? Sounds like a bug. If this is true, it's definitely not on purpose. I will try asap.

IMO you should punish crouching, not reward.

I agree.

Crouching makes character sorta immune to lots of high attacks ( which are 75% of almost everybody's repertoir ), so it has to be made sure it will not be abused.

There is another problem with the combat system right now: you can just use the same simple punch anim all the time, and defeat everybody. I need to find a way to force the player to use various attacks rather than always the same. I tried recording attacks performed on a given enemy, and making him block all attacks that were already successful on him. But it makes a very frustrating gameplay, you have the feeling enemies block everything. I think I might just reduce the damage of already successful attacks or something. Don't know yet.

Next, I suggest you that throws should work a bit different: double click forward + punch or kick to lash one's hands forward a bit ( use a simple punch as a "grabing state" anim ). If it connects, do corresponding throw. I am asking for this because Oni style throws are a bit unpredictable. Again, this makes player being more in charge over what his character is doing. To avoid spamming, just make sure throw distance is still qite short as it is now.

I don't know about that one. I kind of like the throws the way they are now. I don't feel they are "unpredictable". But maybe I'll give this a try.

P.S.: And please enable player to choose how much should character jump  - you fixed power of the jump in this build, but it is kinda hard to jump on some obstacles now ( you jump over them ).

Yeah the variable jump amount is on the TODO list.

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#15 09/01/09 14:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Also, I have noticed that if character crouches and gets hit by special attack, it gets only stagered, not knockdowned. Can I ask why?

I can't reproduce this. Can you double-check? Is this happening for anybody else?

w.r.t. the "block button", I was also considering using the middle mouse button (i.e. instead of "slow motion"). But some people don't even have 3 buttons on their mouse so it might not be a great idea.

If you guys have ideas about a good blocking system otherwise, I'm interested.

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#16 09/01/09 15:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Pierre wrote:

There is another problem with the combat system right now: you can just use the same simple punch anim all the time, and defeat everybody. I need to find a way to force the player to use various attacks rather than always the same. I tried recording attacks performed on a given enemy, and making him block all attacks that were already successful on him. But it makes a very frustrating gameplay, you have the feeling enemies block everything.

I always got the impression that the Oni AI progressively blocks an attack the more it is used on them.  It's an increasing slope of likelihood.  After the first couple times you land an attack on a skilled enemy, it's pretty hard to pull it off again.  That just forces the player to mix things up, nothing wrong with that.

If you guys have ideas about a good blocking system otherwise, I'm interested.

Well, all I'll say is that the Oni blocking system is based at least partially on Street Fighter.  How familiar are you with SFII?  That's an important question, because Street Fighter (esp. SF II) invented/perfected most of our modern-day fighting game mechanics.  In SF II, you block by pressing "back".  In Oni, you can block by pressing back or pressing nothing (and in both games you need to crouch for low attacks).  This seems like a pretty refined system to me, and not something that needs to be improved upon.  I'm not even sure it *can* be improved upon.


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

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#17 09/01/09 15:09

Leus
Member
From: Boone, NC
Registered: 05/28/09
Website

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

There is another problem with the combat system right now: you can just use the same simple punch anim all the time, and defeat everybody. I need to find a way to force the player to use various attacks rather than always the same. I tried recording attacks performed on a given enemy, and making him block all attacks that were already successful on him. But it makes a very frustrating gameplay, you have the feeling enemies block everything. I think I might just reduce the damage of already successful attacks or something. Don't know yet.

Maybe have it so that if a player attempts the same move let's say three times in a row the player is actually staggered, knocked down or even hurt?  It would kind of make sense because it'd be like the enemy was getting wise to your combat style and countering.

Also, one thing that's kind of weird to me is how everything you press registers.  What I mean is, if you pressed punch three times but you've only punched once on screen, you can't suddenly press kick and begin a new combo following your one punch; all three punches will execute.  You know?  In the original Oni, extra buttons you pressed mid-animation just got ignored.

But you might have it that way for a reason, maybe as further button mashing discouragement?


If we don't change the direction we're going, we'll likely end up where we're headed.

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#18 09/01/09 15:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

I always got the impression that the Oni AI progressively blocks an attack the more it is used on them.  It's an increasing slope of likelihood.  After the first couple times you land an attack on a skilled enemy, it's pretty hard to pull it off again.

This is not the impression I had! I have the feeling I can just defeat everybody with the "single punch" attack. It's just a matter of time.

Well, all I'll say is that the Oni blocking system is based at least partially on Street Fighter.  How familiar are you with SFII?  That's an important question, because Street Fighter (esp. SF II) invented/perfected most of our modern-day fighting game mechanics.  In SF II, you block by pressing "back".  In Oni, you can block by pressing back or pressing nothing (and in both games you need to crouch for low attacks).  This seems like a pretty refined system to me, and not something that needs to be improved upon.  I'm not even sure it *can* be improved upon.

I played SF2 years and years ago on SNES, but I don't remember the blocking mechanics. What I don't like in Oni is that blocking feels random. If I don't move, the same attack from an enemy can be blocked or not. I don't really feel in control...

...but anyway that's exactly why I did not implement a blocking system in KP yet: I'm still not sure what to do here  tongue

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#19 09/01/09 15:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Also, one thing that's kind of weird to me is how everything you press registers.  What I mean is, if you pressed punch three times but you've only punched once on screen, you can't suddenly press kick and begin a new combo following your one punch; all three punches will execute.  You know?  In the original Oni, extra buttons you pressed mid-animation just got ignored.

There should be an option in the menu now, to make it a bit more like Oni.

But you might have it that way for a reason, maybe as further button mashing discouragement?

I did it because as a player, I didn't like the way Oni ignored my commands. It often feels (to me) like I click "at the right time" but nothing happens, and it almost looks like a bug. I was always frustrated by this in Oni, but that's probably very personal. I like it better when each action I do, each click, gives a reaction/feedback on screen.

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#20 09/01/09 15:09

Leus
Member
From: Boone, NC
Registered: 05/28/09
Website

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Awesome, man.  Makes sense

One more thing:  It'd be cool to have back buttons after you select the difficulty too, just in case you suddenly change your mind about what you want to do or click the wrong thing.

Man you feel like such a badass going into the Multi AI test on easy, lol.  I killed all the Konokos without dying.


If we don't change the direction we're going, we'll likely end up where we're headed.

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#21 09/01/09 16:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Pierre wrote:

I played SF2 years and years ago on SNES, but I don't remember the blocking mechanics.

I'm not an expert on the game either, but when you press back, the character will move away from the enemy unless they are attacking you, at which point your character stands still and blocks.  You should definitely break out the SNES (or a software substitute, *ahem*) and get re-acquainted with it, it may be helpful for you to see the elegance of the system.

What I don't like in Oni is that blocking feels random. If I don't move, the same attack from an enemy can be blocked or not. I don't really feel in control...

Hmm, do you mean that you don't know if an attack will be blocked or not because of some attacks being unblockable?  Because that was the one iffy point in the mechanics, but Loser has fixed almost all of those inconsistencies in the Edition.  Almost all attacks are now blockable, although some that formerly were not now cause stagger.  As far as whether an attack needs to be blocked high or low, I think that part is almost always clear, but I'm not sure what part of blocking you were talking about.

I like it better when each action I do, each click, gives a reaction/feedback on screen.

That's definitely one approach that games sometimes follow.  It's personal, as you said; some people prefer it the Oni way, so I'm glad you offer that option now.


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

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#22 09/01/09 16:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

I'm not an expert on the game either, but when you press back, the character will move away from the enemy unless they are attacking you, at which point your character stands still and blocks.  You should definitely break out the SNES (or a software substitute, *ahem*) and get re-acquainted with it, it may be helpful for you to see the elegance of the system

Yeah, pressing back might be a good alternative - especially since I was missing a block button. Blocking automatically à la Oni feels wrong to me, but pressing back could do the trick. That being said some people prefer a real block button:
http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/sh … d=26941799

Hmm, do you mean that you don't know if an attack will be blocked or not because of some attacks being unblockable?

No. The same (blockable) attack in Oni can be blocked, or not, if you stand still. It looks random to me. Maybe you should play the original, un-modified Oni again  tongue

Because that was the one iffy point in the mechanics, but Loser has fixed almost all of those inconsistencies in the Edition.  Almost all attacks are now blockable, although some that formerly were not now cause stagger.

I never played the Edition  neutral

As far as whether an attack needs to be blocked high or low, I think that part is almost always clear, but I'm not sure what part of blocking you were talking about.

Is there even an animation for "blocking low"? do you mean when you're crouching? I think I only have 2 blocking animations for Konoko, both for the standing pose.

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#23 09/01/09 17:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Pierre wrote:

No. The same (blockable) attack in Oni can be blocked, or not, if you stand still. It looks random to me. Maybe you should play the original, un-modified Oni again

I'm pretty sure that attacks were always handled 100% consistently in that regard.  Perhaps you were turned away from the attack a little while trying to block?  The inconsistency I mentioned was in the area of logic -- "Why would this attack stun me and that similar attack be unblockable?", etc.  But Loser will have to bring his authoritative knowledge to bear on this topic to confirm this.

I never played the Edition  neutral

wallesad.png

Is there even an animation for "blocking low"? do you mean when you're crouching? I think I only have 2 blocking animations for Konoko, both for the standing pose.

http://iritscen.oni2.net/forum/2009/BlockingDemo.mov

Last edited by Iritscen (07/23/17 15:07)


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

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#24 09/01/09 17:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

I'm pretty sure that attacks were always handled 100% consistently in that regard.  Perhaps you were turned away from the attack a little while trying to block?

I don't know, I just tried it before writing the post and it definitely looked random. What do the others think?

EDIT: ok I tried again and you are right. It is consistent. I thought it was random because if you rotate the player just a tiny bit then the attack is not blocked anymore. But once you figure out what the right angle is, it is indeed not random. That's interesting, I never noticed  lol


Shit, I definitely do not have that animation. It might be part of the few TRAMs encoded in a different way. I never managed to get those right. Seems I have a lot of work ahead. Sigh.


Other than that, I will be moving back to Zürich in a few days, and I won't have access to my PC for a while. I might be offline for some time...

[2010 Edit: Corrected my video link to point to permanent Photobucket location. --Iritscen]
[2017 Edit: Corrected my video link to point to Oni2.net location since Photobucket is clamping down on free accounts. --Iritscen]

Last edited by Iritscen (07/22/17 15:07)

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#25 09/01/09 19:09

Leus
Member
From: Boone, NC
Registered: 05/28/09
Website

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Whaaaaat?  Why haven't you played the Edition?  It's like Oni Plus.


If we don't change the direction we're going, we'll likely end up where we're headed.

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