Some thoughts

T_W_D · 08/16/09 03:08

People here and on the old forums often discussed these themes, so I came up with my own ideas.

1. Mai can feel Mukade because he also has a Chrysalis. This was said officially. There's no other relation between them (if he actually was he father or Bertram Navarre or else, it'd be hinted more clearly). Speaking of Mukade, there actually is a slight chance of his survival. After killing a Daodan symbiote, Konoko gets a chargeup, but she doesn't get one after breaking the master ninja's neck. And his Chrysalis would be able to keep him alive. So maybe, just MAYBE, they had plans for Mukade in the hypothetical sequel

2. The chargeup doesn't kill people (someone on the old Central Forum speculated about it). It just knocks them back, if they are too close. They don't get up, 'cause they can't do it during a cutscene. So we can't really say that Griffin has to die anyways. What kind of a conversation
he and Konoko had after Muro's defeat, though, is another story.

3. Ninjas are human. Probably Daodan enhanced, but human. Their masks prove nothing - there's skin between the mask and the armor. Their voices are simply distorted by vocoders (same with Mukade's voice). Doesn't Mukade himself say that killing makes his BLOOD boil? A robot can know the saying, but he can't have the feeling. And if they were SLDs, again, it'd be hinted more clearly at. Tankers are SLDs, for example, and that's not a secret.

4. I think "Dream Diver" has no special symbolics. It's just confused, like all dreams are, and consists of recent impressions and situations (such as fighting Strikers, phase cloaks, etc).

PS: for some reason I thought at first that the famous Failure Screen Guy is Konoko's brother... that is, before actually knowing who's her brother

And a question from me: why does Mai have brown hair in the end? Is it the Chrysalis changing her? Or a leftover from the old concept?

Last edited by T_W_D (08/16/09 03:08)

Gumby · 08/16/09 04:08

1. We don't really know, and any questions ive posed to old devs about it have come back with "I don't remember".

2. Sure

3. Not arguing there.

4. Dreams are a window to the soul.

5. Just old art. End credit animation probably took a while to make.

T_W_D · 08/16/09 04:08

We don't really know

About Mukade having Chrysalis? Hardy LeBel said that he's a "Daodan super-predator". I believe it's on original Oni Central somewhere.

dream996 · 08/16/09 04:08

i don't think the story is clear enough about Mukade ......

T_W_D · 08/16/09 04:08

Another thing I thought about: if Konoko appears on failure screens defeated and bruised, but alive, maybe it means that Daodan-enhanced can't really die? Maybe they can be just knocked out or something like that, and it takes time to recover. Mai had survived in an acid pool, which is far worse than bullets and fists.

Last edited by T_W_D (08/16/09 04:08)

dream996 · 08/16/09 05:08

In the failure screens ....there is quite a few possibility about it maybe giffin send another team and take konoko back
,,,one question ,in the chapter 8 when you fall in the acid pool you will still be dead same with chapter 3

by the way i don't thinki Mukade have a Chrysalis ....it never said anything and his father is only making the Chrysalis for staying alive in the poison atmosphere,,(that includ acid)and doctor kerr said there is only two project

Last edited by dream996 (08/16/09 05:08)

T_W_D · 08/16/09 05:08

maybe giffin send another team and take konoko back

Some failure screens with Konoko alive appear after she gone rouge, so I doubt he did.

in the chapter 8 when you fall in the acid pool you will still be dead

Well, of course. It's a game, it won't be interesting to play as an immortal. But the story suggests Konoko can survive it *shrugs*

father is only making the Chrysalis for stating alive in the poison atmosphere,,(that includ acid

Chrysalis replaces damaged body parts, were they affected by poison or shot through. And acid isn't poison

dream996 · 08/16/09 05:08

Some failure screens with Konoko alive appear after she gone rouge

after she gona a rouge ,the failure screen is not the one in the chapter 6 anymore
it change in chapter 7 and 12

T_W_D · 08/16/09 06:08

Not the one, but it shows Konoko alive nevertheless.

dream996 · 08/16/09 07:08

i really think the pic doen't wanna mean anything just a normal fail picture

Dirk Gently · 08/16/09 07:08

Seeing Konoko dead at the failure screens is not something a player would want to see. If you think about it, the whole game is spent as one person fighting against all the forces of evil. You are going to be pretty battered and beat up doing that. But the fact that she can shows she is not going to die easily.

dream996 · 08/16/09 07:08

i don't think they would draw a konoko that is dead ....=]
and MURO

he plans to spill enough poison into the air to kill anyone who won't sell their soul to him for a Chrysalis.

i don't think muro would wanna give someone a chrysalis even they sell the soul for that chryalis (because you will be liveforever !) and muro is dead at last otherwise the story will be carrying on forever

Last edited by dream996 (08/16/09 07:08)

T_W_D · 08/16/09 08:08

i really think the pic doen't wanna mean anything just a normal fail picture

Well, there's a number of things in Oni that probably don't mean anything, yet they're speculated upon And some content had been cut, so now we can only guess what Bungie meant to make here or there. Like Casey what-was-his-second-name.

Seeing Konoko dead at the failure screens is not something a player would want to see

Why? I don't think a picture of bruised Konoko lying on the floor (for example) would damage players' tender nerves so horribly And I don't think they in Bungie take their heroine so seriously that they would never draw her dead.

If a character was killed, then seeing her simply beaten two seconds after seems a bit off-logic.

But again -

dream996 · 08/16/09 08:08

i still don't really konw why did some of the content got cut out

T_W_D · 08/16/09 08:08

i don't think muro would wanna give someone a chrysalis

Who knows? Muro's a crazy maniac. Besides, maybe it'd be some kind of an altered Chrysalis without a possibility to become Imago.

Dirk Gently · 08/16/09 08:08

T_W_D, but didn't you say yourself that you did not think that since Konoko has a daodan symbiote, that she cannot simply "die" in the normal sense? So since this thread is pure speculation, Konoko could be knocked unconscious after being shot or hit so many times, and may be in a coma until she can heal herself to a point where she can continue to fight?

T_W_D · 08/16/09 08:08

Konoko could be knocked unconscious after being shot or hit so many times, and may be in a coma until she can heal herself to a point where she can continue to fight

That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Iritscen · 08/16/09 08:08

Wow, this topic popped up while I was asleep, there's a lot to respond to here:

- "Ninjas are human". The reason some people say that they're robots (I'm undecided, myself) is not just their robotic voice (because, yes, Mukade is not a robot and he has the same kind of vocoded voice), but the robotic way in which they speak. See http://wiki.oni2.net/Quotes/Speech#Ninja . Mukade clearly speaks like a human, but the ninjas don't.

- Dream Diver is probably more random than meaningful, I agree with you there. Ideally the level would have been longer, more interestingly-designed, and had meaningful symbols. I think they kind of half-assed it, personally.

- As Gumby said, the animators may have been working from old art, because from interviews it sounds like AIC was given the job well before Oni released (keep in mind, they originally thought the game would be done way before it was). It's also possible that the Japanese did something they're infamous for with some American producers, which is re-designing the character to suit their sensibilities. Both Sunrise and TMS did this with episodes of the Batman animated series from the '90s because they were confident they 'knew better' than the guys who sent them the model sheets!

- It's pretty likely that Mukade has the Chrysalis. Your quote from the old board was basically correct: Hardy LeBel called them "super-predators". dream996 correctly pointed out that Dr. Kerr says there were only two Chrysalises, however he probably hasn't seen Dr. Hasegawa for like 12 years. We don't really know what he/Muro could have done with the technology in that time. For instance, Barabas shows clear signs of having a Chrysalis. And Mukade says "We writhe inside as we are torn apart to make way for what we will become", which sounds like he knows the Chrysalis is replacing him from the inside.

- "if Konoko appears on failure screens defeated and bruised, but alive, maybe it means that Daodan-enhanced can't really die?" I honestly think they just didn't want to draw her dead, as others have said. It's hard to think of too many games where your character dies and is then shown dead in some "game over" art, male or female.

- Bullets could well do more damage than acid, it depends how corrosive the acid is. So I could believe that Konoko could die from injuries like bullets and grenades but not acid. And acid is deadly to her before that point because the Chrysalis hasn't developed enough to protect her yet. You won't see her dying in any acid pits after Ch. 12 because we know by then that she can handle it.

- I do think Mukade could have survived. Heck, lots of ordinary people have survived having their neck broken. From that standpoint, it would be surprising if he *did* die, since he's apparently a Daodan host.

- dream996 was essentially correct when he said that "acid was poison" because he was speaking about the poisonous atmosphere, which could include acidic air. I also think he has an interesting point when he says that Muro wouldn't have actually sold Chrysalises to people. That was Konoko's idea, but we never really know what exactly he planned. The odd part is that his men are still serving him even though he's about to poison the air. There's no evidence that Joe Q. Striker has a Chrysalis, so either they really believe he will get them their Chrysalises "real soon now", or they're quite nihilistic and don't care if they die (we also never consider a third option, which is simply that they are planning to hide out in a Syndicate HQ with filtered air!).

- As to why content got cut, dream996, the main answer is "time". They ran out of time to polish the game like they wanted to. Also, remember that the game had two Project Leads. The story was rewritten when Hardy replaced Brent in 1999 and some things probably weren't completely "settled" by the time the game released.

P.S.: Sorry for the mammoth post.

T_W_D · 08/16/09 09:08

but the robotic way in which they speak

If they're robots, why is there skin under the armor?

If they're SLDs... Tankers and Shinatama talk like normal people.

Probably the phrases is just a detail to create an image of a cold, ruthless and not really talkative hunter.

It's hard to think of too many games where your character dies and is then shown dead in some "game over" art

I don't play games often, so it's hard to judge. I just think it's doesn't quite fit, but if, theoretically, Daodan really won't let you die, then this art seems logical.

I do think Mukade could have survived. Heck, lots of ordinary people have survived having their neck broken. From that standpoint, it would be surprising if he *did* die, since he's apparently a Daodan host.

Exactly ^__^

The story was rewritten when Hardy replaced Brent in 1999

BTW, how much do you guys know about the original story? Was it posted anywhere, some of it, at least?

dream996 · 08/16/09 09:08

1.how can you compare Tankers and shiny .... isn't Tankers a human ???

2.Mukade has to be dead to be honest ...it should be a fact.....and i think you can tell by that ...

3.

The story was rewritten when Hardy replaced Brent in 1999

is there any link between the ghost in the shell ???? maybe you would wanna watch it and see

4.

It's hard to think of too many games where your character dies and is then shown dead in some "game over" art

you can't really judge on a pic , can you ???how many games have you really see that when you fail have a pic with a dead men or women ??????

5.after the ch12 there isn't any more acid ....but if you want it to be make sence i would say by the time when dc kerr looking in to her ...she is fully develop

6.if someone have a chyrsalis won't been dead like Mukade the story will be carrying on for ever

7.if all those Striker has a Chrysalis they won't be dead ....and the did ....so what i think is the chyrsaly is only planning for the poision

8.

but the robotic way in which they speak

maybe this is the way they speak

9.(a question) what happen to Dr. Hasegawa???

10.(by the way i did ask a question) it was about ready for her....i think i got the anwer about the ready for her but not about mukade.......i did really know how did mukade know she is going to Regional State Building and what is the point to steal her file ????

11.and one thing i don't think the story would wanna get into this complicated like wheather mukade had a chyrsalise or not ....i think what konoko's idea about is right .....because it mention about

He used you. Join me or die like all the others, choking on dead air and foul water. I have accomplished everything our father dreamed of doing.

his father was dreaming for .... the chyrsalis would work watch the outro

12. read all the console and find it out

If something isn't done we are all doomed.

Jamie's death won't be in vain

Last edited by dream996 (08/16/09 09:08)

T_W_D · 08/16/09 09:08

isn't Tankers a human

They aren't. http://wiki.oni2.net/Tanker

and i think you can tell by that

*shrugs* It's just what I like to think. We haven't got any sequel, parts of the content were lost, and the whole Mukade story leaves a space to speculate - so we can't really call everything a solid fact. We can only make conclusions, plausible and not.

if all those Striker has a Chrysalis

They weren't hosts, afaik. Even if they were "enhanced" to some point, it's a broken or undeveloped Chrysalis.

chyrsaly is only planning for the poision

Kerr says "As the host experiences stress or harm it grows to reinforce or replace the body's damaged systems". Nothing about the nature of this harm.

Iritscen · 08/16/09 09:08

T_W_D wrote:

If they're robots, why is there skin under the armor?

Eh? What skin? This is news to me.

Tankers and Shinatama talk like normal people.

Heh, well, Tankers don't talk like ordinary people, they talk like pro wrestlers; Hardy has said that's what they were originally designed for, before being "re-purposed" by the Syndicate.

Probably the phrases is just a detail to create an image of a cold, ruthless and not really talkative hunter.

Yeah, could be.

BTW, how much do you guys know about the original story? Was it posted anywhere, some of it, at least?

I've never seen it posted anywhere, but it was going to be a lot closer to Ghost in the Shell, as far as Konoko being a cyborg (as can be seen in the '98 trailer) and fighting tech crime.

dream996 · 08/16/09 09:08

Eh? What skin? This is news to me.

the neck
.....what is the 98trailer???i only seen the thing on youtube ,...and that it
any other thing ???

adorage · 08/16/09 10:08

T_W_D wrote:

Speaking of Mukade, there actually is a slight chance of his survival. After killing a Daodan symbiote, Konoko gets a chargeup, but she doesn't get one after breaking the master ninja's neck.

Does that mean the Fury at the end of chapter 7 was a daodan symbiote?
Or maybe killing one is just one of the conditions that triggers a "chargeup". But why does she get one at that point then?

@dream996: Yeah Tankers are SLDs, says so in the manual.

T_W_D · 08/16/09 10:08

Eh? What skin? This is news to me.

I can't make a screenshot right now, but you can see it looking closely - after defeating the ninja, for example.

Tankers don't talk like ordinary people, they talk like pro wrestlers

Well, wrestlers are people

Anyway, it's a pretty normal voice, and it differs from ninja voices.

maybe killing one is just one of the conditions that triggers a "chargeup"

Maybe. Or maybe that Fury was a prototype host or something like.

Last edited by T_W_D (08/16/09 10:08)

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