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#26 06/10/07 21:06

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 01/13/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

geyser:  Success! 

Well it was my error (of course).  This time I carefully imported the blownup Raw, edited the Dat, then tested it.  Imported the next raw and so on.

Thanks for the clear instructions.

Now wouldn't it be better when others are knock downed that they inflict damage, since Konoko is NEVER knocked down! smile

Last edited by EdT (06/10/07 21:06)

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#27 06/10/07 21:06

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

The same hacks can be done for the other knockdowns and blownups smile
The RAW parts are completely portable (nothing character-specific there).
Same for the attack counts and flags. Konoko was just Loser's example.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#28 06/18/07 14:06

Loser
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From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Hello there again, HERE fixed you can download changed Melee profile.BINA file for level0.raw (right-click -> save as). Import it via OUP into "Melee profile.BINA." There is changed 02 striker_easy profile. I think it is the final version, so here is the description of the class:

Green striker - grunt. Being basic Syndicate units, Grunts are often just average street thugs from slums, which joined Syndicate in order to have a slightly easier life. They don't use too advanced or complex techniques. While being easy to defeat one vs one, they are dangerous in ambushes. Even pair of them can be very nasty.
Grunts are used by Muro as a lure, common troopers and as sidekicks for more powerful classes.

P.S.: The babbling above is NOT any "document". It is just attempt to describe ?enhanced?degraded? version of green striker. I had ran a test: three TCTFlite1 (01 melee profile) vs three striker_easy (changed 02 melee profile). 5 matches, 3 of them were won by strikers.
Then I had tried similar thing, but with original 02 melee profile. 5 matches, 3 of them won by TCTFlite_1s. So there is a little enhancement.

Tech talk: Basically, it is similar to the melee profile I had created some time ago. Only this time it is more stable, even though some bugs reamin (crazy circle running for example). Fight system is clear and straight, no comlex moves with the exception of the running back throw. It has nice feature that if enemy wants to escape and AI wants to perform back running throw, engine automatically calls tackle move instead ^_^.
In order to fully enjoy this change I recommend to play with striker AI dash hack and to change striker's "AI speed rotation factor" ( originally 00 00 80 3F) in ONCC file to 00 00 A0 3F. By doing this you partially eliminate crazy circle bug.

Overall, during my sports week (it was great ^ _ ^ ) I have thought about ONI's fighting system a bit. I know you will say it isn't true or that it isn't important, geyser, but I have to say it: IT SUCKS and has to be changed !!!
Look: almost each character is the same -> directional punches/kicks, triple punch, triple kick, one or two specials which usually do the same as the end effect. You will again probably say it isn't true, but animations are unfinished -> lots of moves are literally the same, for example REDCOMkick_fw, REDPISthrow_fw and KONCOMcomb_k_k_k. Another one: COMCOMcomb_p_p_p is exactly the same animation as COMCOMpunch_fw. Comguy disarm move is just mirrored  fury punch throw. All three striker's combo kicks are literally the same. Etc etc.

Now look at the possibilities (flags for combinations) that Oni engine has: Punch Kick Kick; Punch Kick Punch; Kick Punch Kick; Kick Punch Punch; Kick Kick Punch;  Punch_fw Punch_fw Punch_fw ; Kick_fw Kick_fw Kick_fw etc etc.
Plus there are two special hit animation hit_jewels and foot_stomp_ouch. Both can be modified as general stunners, let's say stomach pain and knee pain. hit_jewels is alright with minor change, foot_stomp_ouch should be shortened in order to be stunner, not pre-finishier (one char alone shouldn't be able to stun enemy, run around him and perform back throw while victim still in a special hit animation). It should be something similar to Dead or alive 2 system - short stun done by some non-trivial technique (but by some useful- willow kick is not useful) that leaves opening just for another quick attack, otherwise enemy revitalizes and block you.

This isn't some urgent request. This isn't "let's do it right now!!!" thing. This is just a sigh about ONI melee system. It isn't the whole game, but it is 25% of the game. And when you see something like Dead or alive 2 from 1995, which uses things that can be done in ONI too, you just want to make ONI beter this way. I know, just a silly talking. But the idea is here and I will not forget.

P.S.: Dead or alive 2 is a Dreamcast game from 1995 which I finally found this month after frantically search. And it got me totally-> 50% better than Tekken 3 ^_^

Last edited by Loser (06/18/07 22:06)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#29 06/18/07 18:06

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 01/13/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Loser: Your StrikerMelee-final.BINA has a size of 0.  Please upload it again.

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#30 06/18/07 19:06

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

StrikerMelee-final.BINA seems to be empty indeed. Please fix.

Specifically:
I welcome a simple yet challenging profile, especially one that include tackling (I assume we're talking of the right tackle this time). It'll be optimal for OTA Rugby.
As you know, none of the original melee profiles have a tackle throw. And as you can imagine, OTA Rugby sucks without those (dashing AI are definitely not enough).
If you can also find a way for AI to reliably "tackle" a character that's backpedaling away from them (a running kick or slide, probably), I'll kiss you on the nose.

Generally:
I never said Oni's melee AI couldn't be improved (see my note on tackle throws above). It's just that melee profile "improvements" are global and permanent.
So you really want to make sure that whatever change you do is an undisputable improvement. Otherwise there's a risk that the result will suck even more.
A "tackling thug" is a nice start. However, let me point out that there are redundant thug profiles in Oni. Maybe it's a good idea to use some of those instead?
(not that I don't acknowledge your encyclopedic entry on "grunts", but maybe they deserve at least a crowd-clearing special and a decent back throw)
I'm not too keen on "general stunners"; I fear they'll turn out to be overly frustrating. Throw reversals might be worth checking out, though... (script-based).

Reauthoring animations: mentioning bone-rotation hacking with our current workflow is kinda ridiculous. Forget it for now, unless you have crystal-clear plans smile
As for combat animation duplicates: check out (and maybe update) the gray fields in this old overview: http://wiki.oni2.net/index.php/Gameplay/Combat_moves
(I didn't consider the animations as identical when they had a different number of frames, although I agree some of those are nearly the same nevertheless)
The Striker or Ninja kicks being the same are not a problem. After all, there are real-life fighting styles that use quick series of similar blows, and it "works".
Anyway, what would you suggest to "fix" that lack of variety? I wouldn't expect to author and import good-looking animations. And the aren't many unused ones.
In my opinion, the solution is to create/combine not-too-familiar melee patterns (both BINA and scripting), keeping the original animaitons for the most part.
Of course, there are attack/anim types such as PK, KP, PKK, KPP, PKP, KPK, KKP, PF PF, PF PF PF, KF KF, KF KF KF (and maybe we're still forgetting some)
But an anim can't have two types at the same time, and apart from Konoko's Super Kick, there are simply no "new" anims to bind to those "missing" types.
The only way to go (apart from authoring new anims) is give all female anims (RED+KON) to both Furies and Konoko... thus you get more variety for both.
But you're losing variety on the whole. BTW, I'm not even sure all those types are even handled properly by Totoro's lookup system... have you checked?
I'm not saying those types are not inspiring at all, but they can wait (say, until we put all ONCC, TRAM and TRAC into level0 and add new TRAC/ONCC wink )
Also, concerning PK, KP, PKK, KPP, PKP, KPK, KKP... people have pointed out that you get them by "missing" the timing of PP, PPP, KK, KKK, PPK and KKKF.
More generally, gamers make "combos" of their own by not using preset combos. I'd try and teach the AI to use some of those "unintended" tactics...

And (you knew I would say it) yes, there's more to Oni than melee. I wouldn't spend months hacking the melee profile BINA, let alone modifying bone rotation tracks.
What we need is a minimal set of hacks in every field that needs impovement. It sounds like a loss of focus, but it's a must, really: visible progress in all directions.
Maybe draw a list of improvements you could do to Oni (let's say global hacks), and then retain only those hacks that can be completed and released in a short time.
Otherwise, it's just the same "endless quest" over and over again. I think we should have a talk about the possibilities (that list thingie), and we should make choices.
A very good idea is to dump improvement ideas into the talk pages of the respective filetypes on the wiki. And if you're concerned about privacy, just let me know.

Last edited by geyser (06/18/07 19:06)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#31 06/18/07 23:06

Loser
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From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Oni ni Kanabô

First of all, post above was finished. Also I have read your comment geyser and I agree with you. It IS nonsense. I just ....had to shout it out, all that anger and sadness.....forget it, I apologize and here is a gift for you (sorry, video as usual). Striker has dash hack (necessary if we want him to tackle you) and slightly changed ninjabot melee profile (12), just for this quick test. And no kisses please, forgiving me my silliness will do better. ^_^

[removed; due to my new knowledge it was wrong hypothesis]

Moves for slide: position run forward (00 00 00 10), minimal distance zero, maximal distance (00 00 00 43), treshold distance (00 00 a0 40)
                        attack slide (47 00 00 00)
Back running throw is similar.
                                                                                    Loser

Last edited by Loser (07/11/07 02:07)


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#32 06/20/07 15:06

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 01/13/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Loser: I installed your StrikerMelee-final.BINA, but I noticed the slide move (where the Striker dives headfirst at you) is gone.
I have the AI Dash hack.

See: http://edt.oni2.net/mov/strikermod.wmv

Last edited by EdT (06/20/07 15:06)

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#33 06/20/07 16:06

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Striker has dash hack (necessary if we want him to tackle you) and slightly changed ninjabot melee profile (12), just for this quick test.

The melee profile used by the Striker in Loser's video is:
1) not the one used by your test Striker, Ed
2) not included in StrikerMelee-final.BINA

Last edited by geyser (06/20/07 17:06)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#34 06/20/07 17:06

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 01/13/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

geyser: In Loser's previous melee profile, it had the slide move, so I was wondering if Loser removed it from StrikerMelee-final.BINA

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#35 06/20/07 19:06

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

It's easy enough to check, but I guess he has: he said this one has no "complex moves" apart from the tackle.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#36 06/20/07 22:06

Loser
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From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Yes, there is no slide. I threw it out because it seemed to me that it makes them too vulnerable. But as time goes.....I think in the next instalment (I am going to rewrite 05 blue striker melee profile) I will give the green striker slide move again, for chasing purposes.


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#37 07/11/07 02:07

Loser
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From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Oni ni Kanabô

HERE is new version of 02 striker melee pattern (green one). Still no hacked 05, tough. Sorry.

Seems that new version is exactly what I have ever wanted green strikers to be. Easy to defeat alone (altough now you have to use tactics a bit) he is nasty in group mainly because of the slide and throw behind/tackle moves. Designed just to annoy you or as a sidekick for more powerful classes.

This time no specials, he uses only a few simple techniques such as triple punch or kick low -> sweep/kick forward ones. Slide is back and I think now it isn't making him so vulnerable, altough AI ocasionally rolls instead (roll forward). Whole pattern was polished, anti-crazy circle running moves were added. Now it happens only sometimes and just for a short time, so it doesn't matter.

I hope that this version is better for Geyser's rugby, also. Enjoy and write your opinion.
                                                                                       Loser

Last edited by Loser (07/11/07 06:07)


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#38 07/13/07 20:07

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 01/13/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Loser: I tested the new melee, works great.

Its funny, when running away its possible to be caught by the dashing strikers, but if you back-pedal, they can't catch you.
http://edt.oni2.net/mov/ai2melee.wmv

Last edited by EdT (07/13/07 22:07)

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#39 07/24/07 18:07

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Playing in OTA, I got some clips that shows the effect or Loser's knockdown mod.

Knockdown video:
http://edt.oni2.net/mov/Knockdown.wmv

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#40 08/05/07 16:08

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Loser wrote:

And for Xdelta - I had tried really hard (read everything possible about it) but I still don't get it how to create Xdelta patches... gomenasai -_-

It's easy smile  Grab the demo somewhere (not necessarily the one released as DemOni: just be sure to have the PC or Mac demo Oni somewhere on your system; original content).
Then grab nikanabo here: http://svn.oni2.net/nikanabo/   Unzip it to your demo's "Oni" folder. Explore the contents of "Oni\nikanabo". Read the READMEs (what a surprise, eh? smile )
In the folder corresponding to the demoni binary patches (*.x3d), you have a batch script called winstall.bat. If you run it, it will apply the x3d patches to the data in GameDataFolder.
(actually, if you do that it will complain about xdelta missing; that's because I provide an xdelta program for every platform out there; you have to set it up first in the "xdelta" folder)
(it will also complain about the original binary data in GameDataFolder not being backed up; that, too, is something you can do by running a script, called wbackup.bat, unsurprisingly)
If applying the patch works (you should get dashing strikers, new weapons, some glass stuff, and ninjas in the warehouse), then authoring a patch from WIP is just as simple.
Make any changes you want to the demo's GameDataFolder (either original files or DemOni-upgraded). Then in the "demoni" folder, run "wauthor.bat" instead of "winstall.bat".
In both cases it runs xdelta, with the original, backed-up data, but: "wauthor.bat" gets the differences between backup data and current data and puts them in a set of x3d files.
"winstall.bat" runs xdelta with different parameters, so that it reads the original data and the x3d patch files, and outputs a set of properly modified Oni-files into GDF. OK? smile

Last edited by geyser (08/06/07 01:08)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#41 08/05/07 17:08

Your_Mom
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From: Canada
Registered: 01/31/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

the wininstall thing doesn't work, or I'm not doing it right. (hey...there aren't even instructions....)
I'd prefer the individual files that I can import with OUP better >.> stupid patches and encrypting...

Yes, I have "installed" xdelta. I ran the backup, it still complains about not being able to read the patches...
It complains about
"target window checksum mismatch"
"file open failed: read: ..\dat\demoni\level(whatever)_Demoni.(raw/sep/dat).x3d: the system cannot find the file specified"
it also says it can't find the \original *.sep files >.>


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#42 08/06/07 11:08

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

@ Mommy: Please note that patching worked fine for Ed... eventually smile  And please don't call those patches and encryption "stupid" or someone's gonna be sorry wink

Individual resources are OK, but OUP import is an overall more technical thing. Yes, it has a GUI, but there's more stuff to navigate and more ways to mess up, AFAIK.
The latest nikanabo just doesn't let you make irreparable mistakes (unless you go deleting backup files manually). I'll make a GUI for it when I can. You Can, Too (TM).

The fact that OUP doesn't support automatic patching ( Yet (TM) ) made me pick the "only" universal and performant cross-platform patching system, i.e., Xdelta 3.
It works very well, even though the user-friendliness might be worse than I assumed it was. Then again, I can't guess anything is wrong if I don't get any feedback.
As Ed pointed out, it might be a good move to only have one script to run (per binary mod and per platform). It's less flexible than a GUI, but I might give it a shot.

The fact that you can't get it to work (I know my instructions suck, but they are there roll ) is a bit alarming. Platform separation should fix You & Co.

Sorry for the bitterness. I'm tired and busy neutral
Will attempt a per-platform release ASAP...


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#43 08/06/07 11:08

Your_Mom
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From: Canada
Registered: 01/31/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Mmmm, well I'll try agin (ie, reinstall DemOni, move all the stuff again) hopefully it'll work then.

EDIT:

That was VERY strange.
I reinstalled, reapplied, got the same error. When I start up DemOni, there's no sound, textures are screwed up, no flashes,etc...
Then, I reapply the nikanabo patch AGAIN, and it works O_o that was very very very screwed.

Last edited by Your_Mom (08/06/07 11:08)


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#44 08/06/07 13:08

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

You "reapplied" both times exactly the same way and didn't do anything in between (except running Oni) ?

That "same error" you got the first time: could you detail it "again", please? Exact printout if possible.

Also please detail how exactly you "reinstalled" and whether the backup script complained. TIA.

Ah, almost forgot. URL of the Demoni and nikanabo you're using, please. Then I'll have it all.

Last edited by geyser (08/06/07 13:08)


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#45 08/06/07 13:08

Your_Mom
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From: Canada
Registered: 01/31/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

The simple stuff first:
The URL of the nikanabo is the one on the first page of this thread (the one zip file)
The URL of the DemOni....i forgot where I got it lol...its been there for a while.
I reinstalled by deleting the old DemOni folder, and running the install exe again.

The error was like this, exactly the same the first two times:
error.jpg

The complicated stuff
"What I did"
1) Reinstalled DemOni
2) Ran pcwin32.bat (installed xdelta)
3) Ran wbackup.bat
4) Ran wauthor.bat in demonix
5) Ran wininstall.bat in demonix (got error above, except with demonix)
6) Ran DemOni (no sounds, missing textures)
7) Quit DemOni
8) Ran wininstall.bat in demoni
9) Ran DemOni
10) Worked like a charm O_o

Notes:
- With the first install, running wininstall.bat in demoni produced the error in that image...


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#46 08/06/07 19:08

geyser
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From: beyond the veil
Registered: 01/14/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Thanks for testing, Mom. There's indeed a problem I overlooked.
And looking at your actions, the READMEs suck big time, too smile
I'll reply in more detail. Dunno when. Some time this week.


Behold the power of that which is yet unborn! For the swirling images that flow forth from the Chrysalis are only a shadow of the sleeper's true power.

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#47 08/06/07 20:08

Your_Mom
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From: Canada
Registered: 01/31/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Ah well, after a long weekend of reading up on old articles, I can finally do stuff to the binaries again (yayz).
The thing that still eludes me is how you got the thunderbolt gun and the MG to have a new model...does that mean importing completely new models is now feasable? That'd be cool... (and yea, that thing IS overpowered, its like a rapid-fire shotgun : one burst at close range kills a striker...)

Very good work though, I'm impressed. I feel like I want in again tongue...but we'll see.


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#48 08/06/07 21:08

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Your_Mom: You've been away long enough, so now get back to work and help improve those binaries!!! smile

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#49 08/07/07 19:08

Your_Mom
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From: Canada
Registered: 01/31/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

So I finally managed to do it: to get that chaingun thing working in the full game by myself...whee!
Having to change all the links to the stuff to get it not to crash roll

But I had my fun making it work...now to make it into a shotgun.

screen_shot00023.jpg

Sure, I guess I'll bite again, doing this fun stuff is well, fun tongue
Thankfully, Oni's a "portable" game - it runs on a memory stick without installation, meaning that my trip to japan and hong kong should interfere with my "fun".


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#50 08/08/07 10:08

EdT
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 01/13/07
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Re: Oni ni Kanabô

Your_Mom: All I had to do was copy the Modded Level0 files to the Retail GameDataFolder to make it work for the full game.
When the bad guys get the chaingun in OTA, its no fun at all!

I'd like to see the shotgun version!

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