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#51 02/19/13 01:02

Lithium
Member
From: Colorado
Registered: 10/17/08

Re: To Oni Fans you should do better by Samer + ltemplar/dirk discussion

Ah fair enough, I see what you mean now and I understand your discomfort better.


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#52 02/19/13 08:02

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: To Oni Fans you should do better by Samer + ltemplar/dirk discussion

Samer:
Normally I try to keep threads on-topic when I see a problem (I think I'm fairly strict about the Screenshots and Movies threads, for instance).  Here, I didn't see a problem because (1) the original topic seemed to have been discussed to the satisfaction of everyone who participated, except maybe you (more on that in point 2).  Every thread has a natural lifespan, some shorter than others, and then they naturally either die or the topic diffuses into random chatter or turns into another topic.

For instance, my "dark future" thread from 2010 was intended to encourage modders to work towards larger initiatives, but over time it became random chatter.  I eventually made a simple remark on page 2 asking to stay on-topic.  The thread died until someone (ahem wink) bumped it in 2011 to talk about the lack of feedback from players and also the lack of active modding projects, which was indeed the original purpose of the thread.  The thread then became a discussion about why people aren't actively modding.  Then the thread was bumped again to talk about buying the IP, which was an entirely separate topic.  I didn't complain about this because the original discussion had already run its course.

My point is that sometimes there's no harm in a thread changing course.  Now, maybe I'm a little too lax sometimes.  It does annoy me when people quote large recent posts as part of their reply, and for the sake of the forum I should probably police that more, but I've never spoken up about it because it doesn't seem to happen frequently (or maybe I haven't noticed it frequently enough).  And perhaps I should try harder to keep people on topic in the future.

But this brings me to the second point: (2) this discussion didn't really seem off-topic to me.  Folks like 'dox and ltemplar were respectfully disagreeing with you about the nature of the problem -- that it's not lack of feedback that's the issue, but lack of interesting projects.  Rather than blaming the fans, they were drawing attention to the lack of ambition among modders and the lack of technical freedom (in tools and engine) to make mods.  Although it wasn't necessary for ltemplar to go into detail here about what he wanted to change, his posts were not lengthy and you reacted disproportionately to what was actually going on.

Also, you may not have known before that Harry doesn't like backseat moderating, but I can assure you that he's been quite consistent about this over the years (notice his post on page 1 of the Screenshots thread admonishing geyser for the same thing).  Others have been warned too, privately.  It just doesn't come up very often.

P.S.: Complaining about someone's posts being in the wrong subforum is throwing stones in a glass house, since your own thread wasn't even in the right subforum to begin with wink


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#53 02/19/13 09:02

Dirk Gently
Member
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 06/12/09
Website

Re: To Oni Fans you should do better by Samer + ltemplar/dirk discussion

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. For as long as I have been on forums and mailing lists, the proper response etiquette has been as follows:

If you wish to respond to a specific post on a thread, and if they are not the latest post in that thread; you must quote that post to give context to your response to the thread. If that post you are replying to contains a quote, you are NOT to quote it unless in rare situations that require the context of the quote from their post.

This saves both time and confusion when trying to figure out who you are trying to engage in conversation. I've honestly had to read over this thread about 3-4 times now and each time I have found a new bit of text that mentions me by name.

To that point Samer, you mention at one point "nothing personal" and direct it at harry, ltemplar, and myself. Then you go and call me out by just changing the topic name as if I were trying to hijack and invade your thread. I'm not sure where you learned manners or social etiquette, but you cannot just excuse an act of rudeness by saying "no offense meant old chap" when it was fairly obvious that you were trying to cause offense. It makes you come off as a complete twat. Furthermore, I don't enjoy being the voice of harsh reality, but it feels necessary when it comes to projects that I care a lot about. No, I don't post on the forums a whole lot, and I don't get to play a lot of the mods created. However, some of us do work behind the scenes on things the community isn't privy to yet. Just because we don't seem to have as much activity doesn't mean we are idle.

While I respect and admire the effort you are making to try to band the community together and make it stronger, what I don't appreciate is this self-righteous attitude of thinking that the power to call out others lies only on those that are visibly active in the community. To be clear I don't harbor any ill-will towards anyone in this community or otherwise. When I make the posts that I do, in this case calling out ltemplar's posts on what to target as modifications going forward, I am doing them in the interests of the community. I do genuinely want to know how these proposed ideas would work in practice and implementation. I am always open to hear ideas from anyone in this community as to what can be done. My posts do come off as abrasive at times due to my work on modding tools for Oni and extensive time reading the wiki as well as doing some engine analysis. Some of these things legitimately aren't wholly possible given the access we have to the game. What we can do is extensive, but there are also limits to that. All I have done in my two or three actual posts in this thread was ask for clarification and some supporting details to proposed ideas.

If stimulating the community discussion on how to be a better community by questioning what we can and cannot do isn't appropriate, then I will by all means not make more posts like that in this thread. However, I would ask that if you are having an issue with how a thread is playing out, then to please post about it instead of being an instigator of more drama than is necessary. You don't own the thread, nor do you dictate the rules of a thread simply because you created it.

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#54 02/19/13 10:02

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: To Oni Fans you should do better by Samer + ltemplar/dirk discussion

Dirk Gently:
Yes, quoting is necessary to provide context, but you don't need to quote the *whole* post.  Twice on the previous page, you quoted the entirety of ltemplar's post just to make a small reply.  It wastes space visually.  You can quote more selectively to avoid doing that.  But it's true that Samer is over-reacting to your doing this.

However, in the interest of being more engaged as a moderator, I also want to say that your posts were in fact abrasive, and there's no need to be.  ltemplar was talking about texturing the characters in such a way that caters to Oni's limited lighting (which he correctly described as "only us[ing] ambient light and a bit of directional" and as being "without dynamic L&S").  I didn't see where it was necessary for ltemplar to understand the "backend" of the engine more than he already does.

Also, it would be more appropriate to say something like, "I don't agree with you ltemplar, but let's talk about this on IRC or another thread" rather than making further OT posts here.  Yes, I defended the thread earlier against being "off topic", but that was in the context of Samer complaining about ltemplar's posts, which I felt were initially on-topic.  Samer hadn't directly complained about your posts (although the thread title change later on was indeed passive-aggressive towards you and ltemplar).

If he had specifically mentioned your posts in his complaint, I couldn't have defended them, because I didn't really think they were appropriate.  I say that not just in terms of getting more off-topic, but in terms of breaking rule #1, "Be civil".  Other drama started up before I could say something to you about minding your manners, so I failed to speak up until now.  But please mind your manners.

Everyone:
I am also locking the thread (as if it could get any worse at this point).  If anyone has something to say, tell me or Harry privately.  But I think the best course of action is for everyone to just take some time to calm down.  And don't post while you're worked up emotionally, it's not good for anyone.  I will be quicker to temp-ban in the future if this happens again.


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