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#1 01/05/13 21:01

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 09/04/09
Website

Batman arkham asylum / city combat

I recently played batman arkham asylum for the first time (late i know) i really enjoyed it .. The combat mechanics were fun .. But still i prefer Oni's ..
The game won many awards and also praise for its  combat mechanics ..
But i don't get all the hype,  though the combat looks real good .. It's basically based on timing and button mashing, hitting counter, stun or strike to build up your combo meter so you can perform a throw or a take down ..  the rest is automatic .. Hitting strike may result in a very fancy elaborate kick or a light punch ... doesn't have the freedom oni's combat has ...
So for any people who have played it .. Do you think that type of combat from an award winning game is superior to Oni's ?
The only thing i wish oni had was the 'counter' thing instead of our 'stand still to block' move

Last edited by Samer (01/05/13 22:01)


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#2 01/06/13 12:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

in b4 inevitable Loser rant (which I always enjoy) smile

I too enjoyed the game (hoping to play City soon).  But it's true that the combat is basically of the new-school, "makes you look cool" type.  It's quite impressive how cinematic the fights become; onlookers are likely to say, "Are you doing that?".  But the dark side to this approach is that button mashing is effective from beginning to end except with two enemy types (the stun-rod and knife guys; also, gun guys do require stealth to take down).  Batman randomly selects his targets, leaping with superhuman speed and strength when necessary to reach them (I notice the same thing happening in the advance footage of Remember Me's combat).

In order to facilitate the "cool" factor, the game makes the AIs queue up to attack you, and you can't predict which will attack until you get the warning symbol, which leads to annoying fights when stun-rod and knife guys are in the group ("Why is that guy showing an 'about-to-attack' symbol when he's so far away?  How do I even attack him right now?  Ow, he hit me!").  Their solution to the confusing rules about attack order and targeting seems to be "keep the difficulty low".  Thus, all the combat in the game was easy for me except for one ridiculously hard group in one room that had guys with guns fighting alongside guys with knives; very poor balancing in that area because the player was not trained to deal with that kind of threat.

I could find lots of positive things to say about the game, but your topic is the combat system, so those are my honest feelings on it.


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#3 01/06/13 13:01

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 09/04/09
Website

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Yeah the knife guys and stun-rod were kinda annoying ... What i did was build my combos on the other guys so i could quickly perform a throw or knockdown on these guys  .. Or just dragged them down with the batclow before i perfomed a ground pound .. 
i went back and played the game on hard there's no que for attack the blue and red flashes don't show so u have to be more careful about when you counter making it much more difficult.
My problem was somewhere through the combos when i pressed right click to counter he'd go to the use item / target mode which also uses the right click instead interrupting the chain and getting hit.
Batman is not supposed to have super speed and strength he's not superman or the flash tongue so i found some attacks unrealistic especially the throws .. He carries the enemies in a throw like they're a feather up above his head .. I would have preferred other throw animations like oni's where he uses their weight against them.
I did like the stealth and gadgets a lot .. Today finished all the predetor challenges but struggling to get the 3 medals for the combat challenges ..
I grew up reading old dc comics of batman and superman and justice league (few badly translated to arabic comics that is).. So i was a fan long before they made movies out of them and therefore really appreciated the game in the other criteria and for sure it deserves the awards ( the only hing i didn't like was that u can't get all collectibles/riddles until u get all gadgets so long backtracking was necessary, spent a lot of time trying to get some trophies that were right infront of me till finally giving up to later realize i simply didn't have the right gadgets, so they shouldn't have put them in front of you at that point) ..
But the combat made me feel like a cheat at times, (after the initial ouh that's so cool i'm so badass period) like what no i didn't just make that crescent kick and dash back kick just by pressing 1 mouse button tongue thus in the reviews i've read i don't quite agree with the high  praise for the combat while some other games which i felt had better combat freedom got trashed.
I'm hoping to play city soon too. ^_^

Last edited by Samer (01/06/13 13:01)


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#4 01/06/13 15:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Samer wrote:

Yeah the knife guys and stun-rod were kinda annoying ... What i did was build my combos on the other guys so i could quickly perform a throw or knockdown on these guys

Ah, good idea, I didn't think of that.

Or just dragged them down with the batclow before i perfomed a ground pound

Yep, the bat-claw works well for that, except it's not practical in a group fight.

My problem was somewhere through the combos when i pressed right click to counter he'd go to the use item / target mode which also uses the right click instead interrupting the chain and getting hit.

Yes, I hated that!  That caused me some real trouble.

I grew up reading old dc comics of batman and superman and justice league (few badly translated to arabic comics that is).. So i was a fan long before they made movies out of them and therefore really appreciated the game in the other criteria

I didn't read many of the comics growing up, but I did grow up watching the animated series in the '90s, so for the American fans like myself, it was great to hear the voice actors from TAS reprise their roles in this game.  Made it feel more authentic, even though the actual tone of the game was much grittier than the TV show.

the only hing i didn't like was that u can't get all collectibles/riddles until u get all gadgets so long backtracking was necessary, spent a lot of time trying to get some trophies that were right infront of me till finally giving up to later realize i simply didn't have the right gadgets, so they shouldn't have put them in front of you at that point) ..

Ugh, yes.  I wouldn't have minded the backtracking, but I wasted a lot of time trying to get to some of the trophies before I was able to.

thus in the reviews i've read i don't quite agree with the high  praise for the combat while some other games which i felt had better combat freedom got trashed.

It might be a matter of taste (which of course I agree with, as a fellow Oni fan), but I also wonder if players and reviewers are getting used to games holding their hand and forgot the enjoyment of having to figure out their own combos, and learn how to freely handle different incoming attacks without needing "rails" or automatic combat features.  Very few games seem to understand this kind of fun; one of the few that did, last generation, was Viewtiful Joe, but it's hard to think of any others.


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#5 01/06/13 18:01

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 08/23/12

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Hmmm..

Compeered to city asylum have really nice combat and more demanding (I'm huge fan of batman too). The overall combat system is nice and all and better than Oni's in terms of crowd fight. But if such system will be good when two opponents with same abilities(two batmans) will be faced ? Answer is NO.
Because...the batman combat system in reality is the most stupid I ever saw in any brawler game.
It uses old illusionist sentence "All that are only mirrors and smog". - its only huge amount of animation/fireworks to mask its poorness.
So..if you strip it into basics  ...you will see that:

-Batman always have the first strike(even if the enemy fist is right into his face)
-Batman counters can't be interrupted by any means(even wen he got hit) - exception are take downs from crunch position
-All hits are mostly done by one button
-There is no space for planing or anything that normal h2h combat has(thats why he do thous abnormal jumps to target)
The god sides are :
-stealth take downs on higher difficulty
-the riddler quests(in firs batman) - still not a high intellectual challenge but better than in the second one that are on the degree of amoeba.

If you really want to see a nice combat system (even superior to ONI in some cases) I recommend you to play "Matrix: The path of Neo" game, or try "Die by degree" on PS2

Last edited by ltemplar (01/07/13 04:01)

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#6 01/06/13 20:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

ltemplar wrote:

The overall combat system is nice and all and better than Oni's in terms of crowd fight.

Well, Asylum certainly had more work put into its group fights, in the sense that they programmed the AI to take turns.  Is it *better* that way?  Not so sure.  I prefer the group fights in Oni because you're basically screwed any time you get surrounded, which is as it should be.  The AIs don't care about taking turns, they just dog-pile on you.

There is no space for planing or anything that normal h2h combat has(thats why he do thous abnormal jumps to target)

Well, the jumps are because there's no target selection and Batman randomly selects targets even when they're really far away.  Although I don't like the auto-targeting, all they really had to do was lower the maximum distance at which he can attack a target to prevent it from looking silly.

the riddler quests(in firs batman) - still not a high intellectual challenge but better than in the second one that are on the degree of amoeba.

Heh, you're right that the Asylum riddles weren't challenging intellectually, although sometimes they were hard to find.  The funny thing to me is that the Riddler is basically sending Batman on a scavenger hunt.  They aren't riddles so much as they're obvious references to Batman factoids that you have to hunt for.

If you really want to see a nice combat system (even superior to ONI in some cases) I recommend you to play "Matrix: The path of Neo" game, or try "Die by degree" on PS2

Mm, I'll try to check those out.


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#7 01/06/13 21:01

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 09/04/09
Website

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Did you guys manage to get 100 % on the game ? I finished story mode and found all the stuff and got 3 medals/bats on all the predetor challenges but i still have many of the combat challenges only got 3 bats on the first one, the others managed to get only 1 or 2 and one of them i couldn't finish at all ''shock and awe extreme'' kept running out of time on the last round. 
btw there's also an easter egg bonus room in the warden's office .. You have to blow up a wall numerous times to get into it doesn't show up on map nor in detective mode.


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#8 01/07/13 05:01

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 08/23/12

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Well... I have finished both batman games on the highest difficulty, and for me the asylum is far better than the city.
The city is over packed (a word "to much" is not even a good one in that case) sand box.

The batman crowd fight look and behave *better* than Oni's one, because you can defeat entire crowd of opponents  without a scratch(not really realistic but in terms of game play satisfying as hell). I agree that AI take turns , etc , etc. but overall fill is that this system looks as it should for hero/heroine fight against minor foes. The only problem are thous abnormal jumps, inability for opponents to block and other things(like manually target choose- un-needed simplification) that will do this fighting more interesting(so more cheerfuller planing is required). I agree that oni have a lot better AI , more realistic fighting(sometimes to *realistic*) and all that, but you also must remember this that Konoko is the heroine, the daodan , the super being far superior to human. So terms like "realistic fight" is not a proper one in this case(not to mention that the oni is based on the anime in general..and realistic fighting is the last thing what I will suspect for such title). So in terms of combat fill the batman is superior over oni. In terms of depth of combat Oni of course beat this from batman's by head.
But with all due respect to Oni creators , the system is not perfect one. Deep I agree, but perfect absolutely no

The perfect system will be if we will have less control over with attack(and repetitiveness can be avoid by random generated move- but also not silly one button hinting for all moves) we preform(oni for tpp is overcomplicated-its not 2d), but higher from what direction it will come(so no abnormal jumps from one corner of the fight scene to another ala batman), so strategic thinking will be required ,timing, etc(also good AI that will use our mistakes for its advantage- so no taking turns- but allow player to counter more than one opponent) and then merge this with weapons usage(both melee and ranged ones) in h2h fight(so the smooth transition between thous two modes is required). And of course better interaction witch environment(use it for your advantage).
The good system must take into account all thous things instead only one and focus on it(single opponent or crowd fight). And the last thing is overall atmosphere of the fight.Some childish things like:
-no blood
-no cloth damage,
-no stance change after hard beating,
-no environment destruction
-no special powers(but not activated by silly buttons but merged into fight system-move usage)
-no ability to chose my approach(avoid fight? use ranged? etc)
-some character leveling up(progress) will also not hurt , but not in terms(I choose this special ability from menu-its not RPG)but by how game change "us"-especially that Konoko evolve as daodan.
Make thous details, and create this fill of awesomeness and despair sometimes.

If you guys only take oni as h2h brawler then you are all right, but if you take it as awesome story of despair ,to be a daoadan(and what daodan really is) than only good brawler then you will for sure agree with me.

And thats why and only why Batman is better than Oni not as h2h system but as whole(especially the first one).

Last edited by ltemplar (01/07/13 06:01)

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#9 01/07/13 08:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

I haven't gotten 100%, no.  I collected all the things (trophies and other items), but I didn't delve very much into the challenges.  They seemed to be recycling the same areas I had just cleared while playing the story mode.  Maybe I'll come back to them after some time has passed.


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#10 01/07/13 10:01

Samer
Member
From: Lebanon
Registered: 09/04/09
Website

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

The challenges are much harder .. The predetor / stealth challenges are smart, i enjoyed playing and planning these (to get the 3 medals in each u had to do certain requirements example u had to blow up 3 henchman using 3 different walls at same time or zipline into a window knocking an enemy) but the combat challenges are so frustrating ... yet i can't stop sad i got 96 % so far xD
btw how crazy would i be to import a batman model to oni as a playable character tongue ?

Last edited by Samer (01/07/13 10:01)


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#11 01/07/13 22:01

Iritscen
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From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Heh, I couldn't Batman looking nearly as good in Oni, especially with the lack of cape physics.


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#12 01/07/13 22:01

Valkyrur
Member
From: Russia
Registered: 12/04/11

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Slightly off topic, but have you guys heard/seen/looked at Anarchy Reigns? Looks like a nice fighter game you guys could try out sometime.


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#13 01/07/13 23:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Ah, checking it out now on YouTube.  It's unashamedly brainless, but it does have multiplayer, so that's cool.  Unfortunately, it's moot because I don't have a console.


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#14 01/08/13 00:01

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Hm, combat system of Batman games. Contemporary terminal station of the gameplay close combat combat system simplifications.

The core idea of the system based from my observation is:
- one input for damage dealing attack (choice of the attack can be affected a bit by holding directions, other than that it is the engine what picks the used attack move, not player)
- another input for automatic reversal move which works against majority of all attacks and even from behind.

Of course the system includes throws, cape stuns, takedowns, beatdowns, gadgets etc. For players who like to incorporate tactics adn delicate strategies to the brawl, it offers plenty of tricks to outmaneuver and outsmart enemies.


So far the system sounds good, where's the problem?
The issue is: this combat system is for my tastes too much player-centric. Player must feel unstoppable. Enemies are bound to obey "pecking order" set by the system and attack one by one. Sometimes two at once in the Arham City, since Batman's repertoire in Arkham City includes instant counter move for that kind of situation.
Defeating single non-boss enemy unit does not even require facing the enemy, simply tapping the counter input is sufficient. In order for the player to feel some sort of satisfaction, either hoardes of common enemy units are required (so chance of player's mistake rises) or introduction of special enemies, which are immune to some Batman's abilities. That way, combat is significantly simplified once again as special enemies are clearly identifiable. Average player feels gratification - yes, he is smart enough to know this kind of enemy cannot be coutnered but can be taken down by constant attacking and that kind of enemy always requires first cape stun, then beatdown.

That's the issue. Two inputs are enough to take down a whole group. For attacks no positioning or spacing is required, simply pick a vague direction where Batman should attack next and if there are some enemy units, game does the work for player - picks a move, calculates the correct distance-closing maneuver. For counters no anticipation is required, enemy windups are long enough to notice incoming attacks even without counter icons. Then simple press of counter input (no need to worry about facing) is enough for the player to deal damage.
In order to mask the simplicity of the core system and the overwhelming superiority of the player character, special enemies are introduced. They are not smarter, they will not fight with Batman on more even terms. They are simply partially immune to Batman's actions, thus limiting player's actions a bit and giving the player (in my opinion false) sense of complexity.

However, I have to admit the result looks impressive and gives enough background for shady PR announcements about complex combat system.


So much for the Batman games themselves. Combat is only one part of them and the rest of their content is in my opinion of high quality. Futhermore, even tough I don't like their close combat system, at least it suits the masked superhero theme.
However, quite a painful sight is to observe how the success of this franchise spawns followers such as Watch Dogs or Remeber Me. Such titles don't share the comics superhero background, so when the "Batman combat" is applied to them, they look awkward in my eyes, especially Watch Dogs. Even tough the game Watch Dogs is supposed to have Hong-Kong wire fu settings (similar to Batman), the chemistry does not work, brawls look cheap and fake to me and this course of action results in a fatal destruction of immersion (for me ^_^).


Final note:
I can't talk about Nina:Death by Degrees apart from the fact it was developed by Namco (company with quite rich close combat games tradition).

But I can talk about Matrix:Path of Neo, having it finished on THE ONE difficulty. I recommend it. However, while it definitely has entertaining combat system, it does not have a good close combat system.
Some facts about the game:
- The game contains guns, melee weapons (they shatter after some strain) and unarmed close combat.
- There is a "bullet time" button, which combat-wise servers as a modifier. In bullet time, Neo will perform more stylish and more damaging variants of normal non-bullet time moves. Bullet time is limited, but usually there is enough supply for it to be freely used throughout levels.
- One input is used for attack AND block at the same time. Simply spam it and based on current fight situation the game chooses if Neo is the attacker (most of the time) or a defender (sometimes versus agents or bosses).
- Throws are done by separate input and are two-staged. First part is getting the opponent off-balance (simply press the throw input while facing enemy). If opponents don't stop this move, they are free to be thrown. Second part is choosing which kind of throw to apply. There are directional throws and a few throws done by attack button. Overall, throw system is rich, and it has to be, as the player spends most of the time throwing enemies instead of attacking them. Reason is simple, throws look more stylish, are easy to perform and do quite a damage to unfortunate victims.
- Multiple enemies (up to three) can be thrown in one throw move. These look quite cool, esp. with the katana.
- Dodges and evades are also present. The best way to utilize them is to perform over the head dodge, which dazes opponent when successful.
- Enemies hold back a lot at lower difficulties. On THE ONE difficulty, some parts of the game finally require an effort and regular enemies pose a threat of some sort.

In the end fights are usually a stream of attempts to perform multiple throws on opponents or heavy blows on bosses. Gunplay is a bit awkward but nothing player cannot get used to. The most entertaining levels from the whole game are according to me "training levels" for freshly awoken Neo. They are homage to classic kung-fu movies and for some reason feel way better than actual levels later in the game. See for yourself:
Kung-fu training
Winter training

Last edited by Loser (01/08/13 00:01)


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#15 01/08/13 06:01

ltemplar
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 08/23/12

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Well... add last some insight, about how the batman h2h system look like.

From me I will only add that such system exclude the fight between two characters with the same abilities.

About Matrix:Path of Neo" I also finished this game on The ONE difficulty i can't simply agree on all your statements:

1)"it does not have a good close combat system." - yes it does because you have here the both: good crowd fight , and ability to fight nicely with bosses and use the same abilities against them like also non-boss enemies .
2)The game require some timing and planing your moves, but also position you take in the fight(if you play on the One difficulty you sourly notice that siting in one place and only fight will end up in fast Neo death even with simple enemies
3)Destructive environment)
4)Kill blows
5)The fast transition between h2h and weapon usage(it require some skills but is not so frustrating like in ONi)
6)Disarming moves and usage of melee weapons are present too.

I agree however that the mentioned game don't have so deep as ONi combat system, but the system as whole win with that from ONI.

Nina:Death by Degrees represent the other system- is more like the ONI one (or should I say the Tekken one). It is deep and sometimes abnormally hard(especially on higher difficulty).The construction of the level is like in resident evil games or more like in MGS . So you enter the kill zone, and chose fight , or run (move to the exit point).The enemies are respowning every time you enter the room again. So its classic Namco game development.

About the combat:
Nina preform all variety of moves using like in ONI two buttons(but there is no separate for fist or leg attack however) , one for special finishers  when the special bar is filed causing devastating blow(with x- ray vision how certain bones are broken by it) to normal enemy and some dmg. to bosses, one for throws. The last buttons are used for blocks, and evasive moves, and  for weapons usage (because Nina can equip an use weapons too). So its more than one button mashing system-sometimes you need to tab even more than 1 button simultaneously.

Weapons , hypos , etc:
The number of weapons is determined by the number of holster points(not visible however) where she can stash them . The degree of degeneration of the weapon is presented as the "%" number, and can be seen in the left corner of the hud screen.Weapons also can be only obtained and changed in special points(or in menu from actually possessed) so no disarming is allowed(if i remember correctly)
Nina can also stash unrealistic number of hypos, special bar filers etc in her "suitcase" . The heeling or replacing equipment(Nina is an agent so she have also some special equipments) is done by entering menu and choosing from it. So classic Namco approach to menu in general

Levels:
The game also allow player to chosee which path he will take (you can avoid fighting , kill enemies in stealth etc , or use environment - sometimes - done by script).
The levels are huge(its Namco classic - with unfortunately with thous drawback like un-logically done riddles )- which can make passing some points pretty boring and repetitive sometimes

Enemies:
The game have a huge variety of enemies like guard that h2h skills are questionable..but are always in numbers (sometimes equipped with range weapons)
The cyborgs- thous are f*** things to fight when especially in numbers.Many types from brawlers to ranged one(also mini-bosses)
The Tekken force -...................................(censored).........................- If you think that ninjas form oni are hard....then you don't meet thous guys..
Special Tekken force- ..(censored)...
Bosses - All are different and hard as hell(well not all) to fight.

Others:
-You have also ability to evolve (chose abilities from menu)
-The game (especially on higher difficulties)- is unforgiving, and any mistakes you do can transform to hell(f*** cyborgs) .So sometimes the game from nice an clean encounter it can change to "fight to the last stand"
-Her basic costume also degenerate during some points in game with is nice addition-but more like mix of dirt and blood rather than unwanted nudity

In overall this game is on the same degree as Oni. but is not a full brawler or action game .It's more like resident evil meet nice fast action and then mixed with MGS .
I really recommend it to anyone who like nice action game with superb and similar to Oni like fighting system. If you don't be bored by the to big levels and to many patches in it or sometimes stupid riddles, or abnormal difficulty then its game for you ....And one more thing .....Watch out for thous F**** cyborgs.

It can be emulated by PCSX2 - for more information go here http://forums.pcsx2.net/Thread-Death-by … 4-U--28564
But one note use a controller for this game playing it on keyboard is rather difficulty task.

Last edited by ltemplar (01/08/13 12:01)

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#16 01/08/13 09:01

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Ah, there's the Loser rant I was expecting smile

I watched those Matrix videos.  The melee one looked very stiff, and it was hard to tell if there was much technique involved in winning fights.  It looked mostly like button-mashing, but I could be wrong.  It's probably not fair to judge a game by its training level.  The destructible environmental objects were cool, like when the defeated martial artist flew through a huge wooden framework and it collapsed.  In the group fights, were the enemies taking turns?  It was hard for me to tell if they were waiting because someone else was attacking or if, at this low difficulty level, they were just pausing a lot between attacks.

The fast transition between h2h and weapon usage(it require some skills but is not so frustrating like in ONi)

I'm curious, how does it work in Matrix and how is it frustrating in Oni?  I always thought it was fast and easy to switch between weapons and melee in Oni, allowing for the fact that a character should take a little time to pull out a weapon.

I might have to try out this Death By Degrees.


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#17 01/08/13 13:01

uroboros
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 10/14/11

Re: Batman arkham asylum / city combat

Combat in Batman is fun it has cinematic feel and the animations are very cool ( It's one of my fovourite games smile) but I prefer melee design in Oni
I think the problem with batman is that you are doing the same thing all the time -attacking and countering.
Combat in Oni wins because you have a lot more control of your character, and every fight is a little bit different.
On the other hand Arkham Asylum unlike Oni has interesting storyline, stealth elements,level exploring and platforming like elements.

Last edited by uroboros (01/08/13 14:01)

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