Konoko dual wielding guns?

Shade · 01/02/13 13:01

Has anyone thought about making a thing where Konoko can dual wield weapons? Like hand guns, etc? I know she can't dual wield two carry guns, but I was talking about stuff like machine guns, etc. If you know what I mean. Has this been done yet or is someone making it? I'd like to this this happen. Konoko running around and shooting people holding two guns in her hands. That would be pretty badass to see this happen. ^_^ Just giving out some ideas.

Samer · 01/02/13 16:01

Someone suggested this before .. I guess the way to do that would be to have her carry one gun that looks like it's 2 guns cz to my knowledge carrying 2 guns at same time requires engine hacking or something, this would require (i'm guessing) :
a model for a weapon that looks like 2 guns (like Edt did with sentry droid, guard dogs and iron demon)
a custom animation for wielding, unweilding the gun (guns)
a custom animation for carrying the gun and running in all directions (4+ TRAMs)
custom TRSC (aiming screeings) which I think will mess up her default TRSC for other single handed guns ...
So .. I don't think it can be done at this time without much effort and risk of messing up default TRSC for konoko.

Last edited by Samer (01/02/13 16:01)

ltemplar · 01/02/13 17:01

In one word - impossible if we take only in to consideration ..existing weapon mechanics, because we only have two possible options for how character is holding the weapon in his/her hands(two flags) for one ONCC.

Of course there is the way(like always) ,but then we must forget about disarming or changing weapons as it done now- Not to mention things like different holding grips, newly done character models/weapons ,and other thing that will be connected to particularly used method(TRSC and TRAM is the less complicated thing here).

This... or serious engine hack , allowing us to have more than 2 holding flags(also more than 2 reloading methods) for one ONCC

Last edited by ltemplar (01/02/13 17:01)

Lukas Kreator · 01/03/13 13:01

Agreed, but I also think it is possible to do it the way Samer suggested. Of course you wouldn't be able to switch weapons separately, but we could make so that the primary fire shoots with the first weapon, and the secondary shoots with the other one. However, I don't know if it is possible to use both fire modes at the same time, and what about the ammo? Anyway, I don't think aiming would be a problem as long as both guns shoot at the same direction. In short, worth a try, in my opinion, as long as you don't care for the limitations.

Samer · 01/03/13 13:01

sentry droid and guard dogs had custom aiming screens, try giving them any other weapon and see how the gun will point, same thing will happen here .. aiming screens will determine how exactly she'll point the gun. so if you change her TRSC to suit the new weapons, aiming for all other guns she carries will get messed up too since an ONCC can have 1 TRSC .. so if this gun is PIS type the TRSC for other pistols gets messed up same for RIF rifle .. and Oni only allows these 2 types of guns .. if TRSC are not changed then instead of each gun being held in 1 fist and shooting forward, they'll aim as if she's carrying 1 pistol .. meaning 1 of her fists will point downwards or to the side as if she's carrying a 1 hand pistol or support her arm as is she's carrying a rifle instead of pointing forwards with the other gun.
so in short TRSC is the main issue and the most complicated part in addition to requiring extra TRAMs for holstering 2 guns but that again will also mess up holstering for the other guns as we can't add another animation type, there can only be 1 holstering TRAM for the gun type\character.
so as I said TRSC and TRAMs are the issue here not modeling the gun.
I could be wrong of course maybe Loser, paradox-01 or Edt can shed some light on that, they know more about TRSC and weapons than I do.
but imo there are many other stuff that can be improved in current weapons and single handed weapons (as I suggested to you ltemplar about AE New Weapons) before we go all Lara Croft on Konoko

Last edited by Samer (01/03/13 13:01)

Lukas Kreator · 01/03/13 17:01

Hm so we can't just give her different aiming animations for the double guns? Surely unfortunate... Would be cool to see an "akimbo" in Oni

Last edited by Lukas Kreator (01/03/13 17:01)

Valkyrur · 01/03/13 17:01

Nope, like said before, the engine only supports two sets of animations for weapons, which could get solved if we had experienced coders AND access to Oni's source-code, which we don't.

Which is a real shame, since Halo came out a mere few months later and had things like this sorted out completely, and that was with a mega-rushed (Less than 8 months, to be exact) development that was pretty much the worst nightmare of any industry veteran.

Also, past the animation issue, you're also forgetting balancing issues. For one, reloading would only take ONE ballistic clip, which makes no sense for reloading TWO weapons. You're effectively doubling available shots with half the ammo. It'd probably take engine modding to make a gun take two clips of ammo. Again, an issue that got sorted out with Halo a mere few months later.

So, tl;dr: Never going to happen unless we get Oni's source code (Not happening) or we decide to remake Oni on Halo's engine version (Which is a bitch to mod on, in my experience) using Open Sauce (Which is essentially the Halo equivalent of Anniversary Edition), which I bet you NONE of us are ever going to be wanting or willing to do.

ltemplar · 01/03/13 20:01

As i wrote before ..there are always the ways how things like that can be done..but itch method will require flowing things:
New ONCC
NEW TRSC
NEW TRAM
NEW body part models
NEW weapons models
New aiming screans.

All thous method also will:

Remove completely ability to disarm or switch weapon on desire(player will stay with them forever or till he reach switch weapon point)

So how we can do something like that
The simplest is to switch particular weapons by switching corresponding ONCC. How to to this..of course by special bsl script that will allow us to switch desire ONCC (for example by crunch move)

Then you must answer flowing questions:

-how thous weapons will behave in h2h combat mode(melee weapons, etc)?
-How they will be holstered/switched
-how thous weapons will be reloaded(its pretty complicated thing)
-how thous weapons will be activated(as move or as weapon)
-what type of ammunition this will use
-what part of the original game I must sacrifice to achieve this
-What advantage this will actually gave me over original game concept(for example throw-able grenades?)- not to mention balancing issue
-what animations i need for this
-what models
-how many ONCC (for player but also AI)
-how CMBT data must be changed
-etc

When you answer thous question (create a list of what '+' and "-" this system will have) , then you can start making proper animations(TRAM TRSC), models etc etc, not before.

For one weapon this is not even worth a try..

All this or serious engine Hack.

Last edited by ltemplar (01/03/13 20:01)

Lukas Kreator · 01/04/13 19:01

I agree, knowing this issues, it's not worth a try. On the question of the balancing issues, that is pretty much what I meant by "what about the ammo?". All kinds of problems arise: reloading separately, having separate ammo meters, etc. Of course we could halve the total ammo of the weapon to try to fix the "double ammo" issue, but that would be a crappy solution, obviously. The things about "melee combat" and "AI" are good points, too.

Well, I, too, believe this to be impossible at our current limitations. As you mentioned, either "source code" or "engine hacking", and both won't happen.

ltemplar · 01/05/13 06:01

I don't wrote it's impossible. The point is it will require completely different weapon holster , holding mechanics, usage etc, than it is now.
Thats why I wrote about sacrificing things like:
-disarming ,
-taking enemy weapon from its death corpse,
-switching them in normal way.
Thous things must be changed if you really want to have different (and realistic looking - both in shooting , and in melee) holdings for weapons.
Because switching will be done on the degree of the ONCC- different oncc for each weapon grip.
So you will also require to have a way to switch thous weapons or more correctly ONCC with that weapon - for example by BSL command.

The rest is up to the particular method you will use for the weapon network.

Methods are:
-The "weapon" is activated as move -I wrote about this method when I propose the personal weapons in the ODF_TC topic.
-The "weapons" connected to the bone structure - the "weapon" is a part of the character model and the ONWC is added to it from the script(ONWC only have the basic things and shooting points(where emitters should emit bullets) and no weapon model- - like in iron demon example). You can switch thous weapons only by switching ONCC.
-Work both for range and melee weapons- the problem is only reloading- and balancing + mentioned above sacrifices.
-The switch ONCC by weapon type- I theory if we find out the way we can switch ONCC by holding particular weapon..but i don't know any bsl command that will allow us to do things like that.The only way is to switch ONCC to "proper" holding form manually.

All thous methods have some advantages over the original weapon concept also.For example
-The h2h with weapon can be different than h2h without weapon
-different holding grips for weapon
-You will be able to block in "holster" stance(in method 2)- the "graphical" part of the weapon is a part of the bone structure of the character(is right hand first actually). so even if you holster it it will still be visually present in the hands of the character so not only new h2h will be possible but also blocking.
-ability to throw grenades- for example if we decide that weapons don't use original ammo(but ammo from the script, or non) we can trade existing red and green ammo into frag or energy grenades(or heavy units can use a special rocket launchers only available for them or hero)
-Better character class balance on the degree higher than only questionable h2h(for example mini guns, rocket launchers etc. can be used only by heavy class, and swords by ninjas)
-many others like upgrades for weapons from script(or even some konoko shooting abilities - by replacing old ONWC by thous with better aiming screen), etc
So we have many possibilities.
And to be honest for action game is a better resolution than it is now(like in ordinary shooter , but with only one weapon)

So it is a real thing(and possible to do) but only if you willing to change entire weapon usage mechanics.For one weapon is not even worth a try, but for a complete network why not?
But its bigger project , and more than only one person will be required to make it possible , with different range of skills(from bsl scripting to model creating , by texturing , and animating to the ONCC, ONWC, and CMBT, TRSC creation ending). So its up to you guys if we going to make it possible.

Last edited by ltemplar (01/05/13 15:01)

Samer · 01/05/13 07:01

... Or we can improve the current weapons ^_^ any opinion on that ltemplar or you're gonna continue ignoring that request ?
Oni is not a shooter game so really it's not worth all that .. and all the methods proposed will lead to many incompatabilites with many other mods. Scripts, ONCC, models, textures etc .. Besides there are many holes in the suggested methods and they seem overly complicated.
Example suggesting making the gun part of the character's model and switching ONCC by bsl is very impractical, for each character 2 ONCCs will be required .. To switch from 1 ONCC to another by bsl command you'd need to know each character's index number in each level, killing 1 enemy before the other will change the index number and the bsl switching would fail. Having the weapon part of the character's model would also require changing texture of the body part the weapon is merged to .. the fist for example .. And since the U.V maps of the fist are too small it would also require model modification, UV map modification, and TRMA modification for each ONCC. So we have about 30 ONCCs (each character outfit is an ONCC thugs for example have about 10 ONCCs we'll have to double them and then make new character models then change the TRMAs then mod particles to shoot from the character's fist then change some animations etc .. Not to mention if this could work for pistols, it will break the rifle system that uses 2 arms.
So in short like Lucas said it's not worth it and I'd say impossible (with logical methods that is)

Last edited by Samer (01/05/13 08:01)

Lukas Kreator · 01/05/13 14:01

Yes, exactly. Seems far too much work and far too much limitations. Even if someone actually made it, it would probably be rather clumsy/unplayable, from a player's perspective.

Last edited by Lukas Kreator (01/05/13 14:01)

ltemplar · 01/05/13 15:01

No I'm not ignoring nothing.
I have some models that I will use for mentioned EA weapons.
Some things are simply resonates each other so in our common interest is to minimize the time and effort spend in creation of thous things- thats all.
And returning to topic

"each character's index number in each level, killing 1 enemy before the other will change the index number and the bsl switching would fail." and how the prone mode work then? or asura overpower skill?
"ONCC by bsl is very impractical, for each character 2 ONCCs will be required .." when I wrote for all characters? The each class will have it's unique arsenal. So no simple grunt with min-gun..
"it will break the rifle system that uses 2 arms." it will not brake anything - because each weapon will have different ONCC (and every ONCC allow 2 flags..)
In method two you don't need to have particles shooting from characters hands because it's the ONWC related thing.(This is how characters like IRON demon hold and use theirs weapons - ask EdT if you don't believe me).

Also konoko as class(hero) don't really need all weapons too ,so she will be able to chose from 3 or 4 standard configurations for example:
Configuration 1 - the sniper rifle and machine gun
configuration 2 - the plasm rifle and two wielded hand guns
configuration 3 - the shotgun and revolver
configuration 4 - a plasma rifle and bazooka

So no 30+ weapons for each character but only selected number.And enemies don't even need to switch weapons - its player only feature.So I don't see any problem here.
And why other chars will not use the weapons belonging to other char? Because its future and all weapons are looked on genetic code degree, so they will not get activated by other person than the owner(WGC safety protocols) , and thous genetic locks can be removed/switched only in special places(armory for example)- See i even find out the logical explanation for this.

And I like to mention that it's not my thread ..I only explain how things like that(or so wanted melee weapons) can work on thous limitations we have now.

Of course the best will be an engine hack that will automatically allow us holster more than 1 weapon(even see this visually- for example rifle on back), different holding grips and animation of h2h fight connected to the handled weapon. But because we have what we have ,for now thous are only possible method that we can use to make it real.
So any complains please address not to me but to original creators.

Last edited by ltemplar (01/05/13 18:01)

Samer · 01/05/13 20:01

1.The prone mod and asura work cz they switch player .. Player index is always 0. You said you wanted to apply that to characters other than the player, their index number is not constant. I struggled with that in my dream lab conversion mod where i switched jester's and evil konoko's onccs, it worked cz i made sure previous enemies would die in a certain order you can't proceed to next room if previous enemies are not killed, however in normal levels where you can take different routes and get attacked by several enemies that you can take down in any random order it would be more difficult to pinpoint the index number.
2. Whether you want to apply it to a class or not it will still require 2 ONCC for each. if you want to give the ninja class swords for example while furies 2 mini guns you have to apply that to the 9 ONCCs of ninjas or furies (3 ninja models x 3 per difficulty)
3. allowing konoko to only use certain types of weapons rather all is limiting from a player's prespective.
4.configurations x 2 (1 oncc with and 1 without) x 6 (konoko has about 6 outfits) so that's 48 ONCCs for konoko alone with 24 TRBS's and TRMA for the models carrying weapons.. Overkill to say the least.
5. Iron demon and sentry droid work this way : weapon shape is merged to the model, they're given an invisible ONWC with center below ground so they can't be picked up and I presume TRAc modification so they can't be knocked out or disarmed. Doing that to the player .. Switching weapon and ONCC requires much bsl, and the player can still drop the ONWC, except if the player never changes the weapon or is made immune by canttoucthis flag which ruins a whole lot of other things. Since the onwc would be invisible they can't be picked up .. (they're invisible cz the gun is part of the character's model)
so player can't switch weapon by picking up another. Very limiting imo.
6. I'm not complainig to you however i think we answered Shade's question by now that it's not possible in a smooth practical way. Anything can be done someway i'm just pointing out that these methods are impractical to be used .. Thus discussing them further and further is kinda pointless.

Last edited by Samer (01/05/13 21:01)

ltemplar · 01/06/13 05:01

I wrote this many times it will require a lot of work as the system, and that is for more than one person project.

1)I know how this work..and exactly thats why its PLAYER ONLY FEATURE.
2)for what presuppose I need more than thous I have now ONCCs for each class? I don't get this?
3)More or less than having guns like the are now. The only change is that you can't switch them on death bodies of your enemies and only in special places.
4)About Outfits..certain outfit can have this configuration added to it. For example:
-scout with config 1,
-assault(standard cat suit)config 2
-..etc.
Really its up to us how we can do(and again HOW WE CAN DO) things like that.
5)You know that you can deactivate E key too right?And what I proposed during ONWC?- exactly the same method. The ability to knock it down or disarmed is a needed sacrifice here(I wrote about this in the first post) and both are flags that can be added or taken out from TRAM or TRAC. The weapon can also have the 1 frame of life after it is removed from player/character. I personally doubt that anyone will be able to collect it in 1/60 of the second.
6)And here we agree almost in 100%. The methods are not impractical , but change so much in oni mechanics that I don't even know it can be still called oni after that. But more or less they can be used and they will work SMOOTHLY, if somebody decide to do them. And I agree that a HUGE amount of work must be putted in to make it real.

In my opinion only "The personal weapons" gave you the chance to do this right(with all limitations that I'm aware of)- because its strictly connected only to ONCC and CMBT (+ some TRAM modify and prts) and nothing else(like BSL script activation).And it's have the biggest compatibility with other mods of all thous.

Or hugeeee engine hack(and we all know the answer for this).

Last edited by ltemplar (01/06/13 06:01)

Samer · 01/06/13 06:01

no disrespect but i couldn't really follow all you wrote as it's hard to keep track since u change a lot of what u say with each post.. Example first u said it's gonna be each type for a character class then you say it's player only. first we were going to give it to konoko now only to 1 outfit for konoko.
final comments : canttouchthis doesn't only sacrifice disarming but also knockdown of normal melee attacks. It's a flag in the oncc not the trac .. You can remove\replace certain animations from the trac like knockdown revamp mod does but still throws can disarm the character from the weapon the onwc as (remove weapon flag is part of the throw TRAM meaning if you want throws to not remove weapons you'll have to also edit all the throw trams.
The doubling oncc thing : if konoko will have 4 different configurations using 6 weapons .. Who's to say that she can only carry a ''shotgun'' in her tctf armor but not in her blue jeans outfit ? Meaning u'd need to modify the models for these outfits to merge the different weapons .. Then the oncc will hve to link to these trbs and trmas hence the need for more onccs .. Or u'd only give her 1 weapon per outfit as you said with scout armor that is very limiting and a step back .. No longer will she be able to carry whatever weapon she chooses.

So in short :
u'd need oncc changes, trbs (model), trma changes tram changes to throws and others .. Onwc changes, bsl changes .. Leading to many incompatabilities .. End result will be ? She can only carry 1 type of gun per outfit and can't be disarmed or knocked down and can't change weapon .. And as u said player only .. So what's the upside ? Nothing.
So all that work it requires, the incompatabilities it will lead to and comparing the cons to the pros makes it IMPRACTICAL, that word is a perfect fit though i'm not sure about the grammar .. And makes the gaming UNSMOOTH.
That's all i have to say about this .. Since no one is gonna make this and we answered the main question of the thread, discussing it further just for the sake of filling up posts with technical blabber becomes almost spamish and as i said pointless.

Last edited by Samer (01/06/13 06:01)

ltemplar · 01/06/13 08:01

OK I AGREE.

But..."No longer will she be able to carry whatever weapon she chooses."..its also a false statement because in terms of game-play(not abilities) player always will chose the most devastating ( killing) weapon.
With UP ONCC(not to mention in multi).. fallowing weapons are useless:
-Campbell equalizer
-Plasma rifle
-scram cannon
-wave motion cannon
-etc
Because you can dodge them always.

The unbalanced weapons and (read PLAYER FAVORITE USED WEAPONS) are:
-Mercury bow
-VDG
-SBG

Questionable are:
-black adder
-phase stream gun
-scream cell gun

So in reality..even if you have other weapons you only use 2-3 in max...by entire game?
So the configuration that you can only use from the beginning is exactly the same in terms of game-play minus the disarming ability - with is also useless when UP ONCC is activated.

And I AGREE we should stop talking about this, and focus on more important things.

Oni Central Forum

#1 01/02/13 13:01

Konoko dual wielding guns?

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Re: Konoko dual wielding guns?

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