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#51 1/11/12 11:31

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Samer wrote:

The page is big fine, paradox did say : make it individual pages, to which you didn't reply.

I made my reply by saying that the one page was too big.  The individual pages are already on the wiki, are they not?  We're only discussing whether to move them somewhere else.

gumby was being over self depricating but that doesn't make it any less true. He said them himself.

I was there when the AE happened (I joined in 2007 when geyser was assembling the first release) and I know how the mods got there.  As I said, Gumby was being too hard on himself.  He didn't force anyone's hand in any major way as far as putting his own favorite mods in there.

if only you and gumby decide what goes into it then don't call it anniversary edition call it Iritscen's and Gumby's favorite mods and don't ask for members to join an ''AE team'' when they basically have no authority what so ever.

That's an inaccurate account of what happened, and you know it (or you should know it, based on what we've told you so far).  To reiterate, we included much of what (little) had been made at the time in package form.  Nobody was actively lobbying to get their mod included and got rejected.  I was uncomfortable from the beginning with making judgments on which mods were better and should be included (although I only have private chat logs as evidence for this), but I think that we made mostly fair choices at the time.  Certainly no one complained.  Finally, the other day I suggested essentially removing mods from the AE altogether.  Weren't you there to witness that?  And the AE Team was assembled to work on mods, as stated on the wiki, not to choose the mods to be included.

Take a look at the mod depot page : first news up there is the anniversary edition and then HD training room.
Ed made a new functional level for the first time, I retextured every character in the game .. Why isn't that heighlighted ? That's a thanks and appreciation.

Okay, that's a good point.  I've been neglecting the Depot, but I will take some time to highlight the bigger mods.  It could also be pointed out that Gumby and I have not updated the AE wiki pages in a long time, which is why the AE Team page and its to-do list lie derelict.  These issues are certainly our fault for being inactive in those areas, and polite reminders to update them are welcome.  There is no "monopoly" by '2 or 3 busy people', but I will speak out when someone suggests something boneheaded.  You should not feel as though you are being barred from contributing just because someone disagrees with one of your ideas.

I want you to know that I went through the same process when I joined the community -- some of my zealous suggestions for the wiki and the AE were ignored, and in other cases they were disputed at great length and then rejected.  Rather than pouting over it, I eventually realized that some of my ideas were based on misunderstandings.  I still feel that other suggestions of mine were correct, however I let the issues rest out of respect for the seniority of the people arguing against them.  Sometimes it's just not worth the effort to win the argument.


I'm not directly quoting and replying to the rest of your post because it's childish.  It reminds me of the "cabal" theory among some Wikipedia users; you have no evidence of people stopping others from contributing but you suggest it because it's better than acknowledging that you might be in the wrong.  The fact is, the most active users naturally rise to the top of any community, and eventually they more or less run things, because web sites (even wikis) are not democracies and cannot be run as such.  As senior members lose interest, others naturally replace them.  There is no politicking behind it, nor are there attempts to hold onto power taking place.

The reason I'm arguing about this at length is that I am tired of seeing you insinuate wrong motives to other people, then try to raise yourself up by saying that you're only thinking of the game and the community (as opposed to what I'm thinking of?).  You don't get to cast aspersions by being sneaky at it; at least, I'm done pretending that I don't notice when you do it.  This isn't Riyadh and you're not a freedom fighter, so just cool your jets and we'll listen to your ideas and reply calmly to them.  You have some good points, but when you get accusatory, you only shoot your own arguments in the foot because people stop wanting to hear them.


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#52 1/11/12 11:40

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Iritscen wrote:

I did in fact ask Paradox if we could put those articles in the main namespace (or somewhere other than OBD:Talk), although I can't find that discussion on the wiki now.  I believe his reasoning was that they were easiest to find if we placed them on each data type's talk page.  I would be open to other ideas, though, like putting them on pages which are linked to by a header template that we place on each four-cc article.  That would make them easily discoverable to new users.  What I can't understand is why you, as a seasoned user who knows where the articles are, is making a mountain out of a molehill over this.

ok imagine this : you're a new member and you're interested in modding oni. You hear so much about onisplit that it's what we use and the wiki is the place for it .. U open the wiki the main page there's for modders section and modding tutorials .. Bingo big_smile you go explore those pages and you find more info about hex editing than xml editing, and the parts on xml are very summarized and not understandable for new modders compared to paradox's tutorial that's where I'm coming from. Or you go ahead and search for reflective textures or animated textures yet get nothing useful, these are explained clearly and fully in paradox's page .. And how come it's a big page for a separate tutorial page but not for a talk page.
You could have told me before hand about the edits increasing size, i tend to save my edits many times cz i'm afraid to lose power suddenly and losing them.
Any other suggestion that makes them easier to find is ok .. Linking to paradox's page/sections under each file type or what you suggested for example.


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#53 1/11/12 11:45

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

This is not riyadh and i'm not a freedom fighter ?? seriously cz i'm arab ..Wth ? Racist much ? i'm not even any where near saudi arabia nor am i muslim nor do i support freedom fighters .. Please don't bring such stuff into it .. That's childish, highly offensive and a personal attack.  I'll presume that's not what you meant cause if you really meant it that way you've just lost any respect i had for you and any reply i'll have to that matter will result in a ban but will be worth it.

And i'm not being sneaky how more direct can I be ? i'm calling it like i see it, i'm honest always been always will be.
I'm not perfect never claimed to be always right and I acknowledge when I'm wrong, tell me why i'm worng don't simply say : No without giving a good reason example ' links to videos don't make a wiki page'' discussing it with chris he suggested something else that was convincing.

Last edited by Samer (1/11/12 11:56)


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#54 1/11/12 12:02

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Samer wrote:

ok imagine this : you're a new member and you're interested in modding oni. You hear so much about onisplit that it's what we use and the wiki is the place for it .. U open the wiki the main page there's for modders section and modding tutorials .. Bingo big_smile you go explore those pages and you find more info about hex editing than xml editing, and the parts on xml are very summarized and not understandable for new modders compared to paradox's tutorial that's where I'm coming from. Or you go ahead and search for reflective textures or animated textures yet get nothing useful, these are explained clearly and fully in paradox's page .. And how come it's a big page for a separate tutorial page but not for a talk page.

I know what you mean, and I agree.  I'd like to hear what Paradox thinks -- should we move his XML tutorials to their own pages and link to them from the article on each data type?  Or is there a better way to just direct more attention to the talk pages?

You could have told me before hand about the edits increasing size, i tend to save my edits many times cz i'm afraid to lose power suddenly and losing them.

Actually, it's the amount of text you're changing that adds to the database, not the number of edits.  Making more edits is a problem only from the standpoint of someone trying to understand later what you did to a page.  I suggest using Preview a lot so you can make the edit all at once, and also using the edit summary field to explain the change.  I can understand your being nervous about losing a lot of work; I am too, so I copy and paste the edit into a text document which I save as I work on larger edits.

This is not riyadh and i'm not a freedom fighter ?? seriously cz i'm arab ..Wth ? Racist much ?

Don't call me racist; this thread was almost getting back into productive territory, so don't ruin it now.  I suppose I should have used a smiley there to indicate my tone of voice, because I thought it was humorous.  I was simply trying to contrast your attitude about senior community members hoarding power with something that's really worth fighting for, where people are dying to bring about democracy (unless you think the Arab Spring is a negative thing?).  This is the problem I'm talking about; you read into things in order to find personal offense.  I would have used the same analogy for someone living in Canada.


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#55 1/11/12 12:02

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Fine.

Last edited by Samer (1/11/12 12:03)


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#56 1/11/12 12:11

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Thank you.  And I'm glad to have you contributing to the community.  Occasional arguments are okay as long as they lead to some useful outcome smile  I'll try to update the Depot soon as we discussed.  Paradox, let us know what you think -- is it maybe easiest to just point to your XML pages from a central tutorial article?  I can't make any real suggestions because I haven't been reading the material enough to understand how it all inter-relates.


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#57 1/11/12 12:16

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Only suggestion i have is add links to them in the file types pages.

Last edited by Samer (1/11/12 12:27)


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#58 1/11/12 12:43

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

As i said i admit when Im wrong I misunderstood ur freedom fighter comment .. Cz the same term is sometimes used for those who fight israel and usa and are considered terrorists  by some countries  (suicide bombers and such fighting for 'freedom' from America and Israel) .. Different term used than 'freedom fighter' in arabic to refer to those who are fighting the dictaterships (which I'm with), so i understood it differently.

Last edited by Samer (1/11/12 12:45)


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#59 1/11/12 12:59

paradox-01
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

"Paradox, let us know what you think."
I'm glad this argument is over. tongue



"maybe easiest to just point to your XML pages from a central tutorial article"

1) http://wiki.oni2.net/Modding_Oni
"Make sure to check out the talk pages, they might contain additional information such as XML document

2) http://wiki.oni2.net/XML_basic_tutorial … file_types
File types with green and yellow circles link to xml pages.

Hey, didn't worked.
So yes, let's create regular, single pages that show up in the standard search!



I like the OBD template. For example here.
We could do similar for xml.

* "ONI BINARY DATA" (OBD:Oni_Binary_Data) -> "ONI XML FILES" (XML_basic_tutorial)
* "TXMB" (OBD:TXMB) -> "TXMB" (XML:TXMB)
* "Other file types" -> "Other file types" (XML_basic_tutorial#supported_file_types)
* "TxtC" (OBD:TxtC) -> "TxtC" (XML:TxtC)



About the two or three tutorial pieces that weren't included - one of it is Chenille:
I felt that this one was "too cheap" because it used existing files:
* Konoko's or Muro's particle
* bomb_fire2

After my "material dependent damage mod" got rejected I decided to not ship "adding impact flash".
ONIE modding was not welcome at that time.

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#60 1/11/12 13:44

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Samer wrote:

As i said i admit when Im wrong I misunderstood ur freedom fighter comment .. Cz the same term is sometimes used for those who fight israel and usa and are considered terrorists  by some countries  (suicide bombers and such fighting for 'freedom' from America and Israel) .. Different term used than 'freedom fighter' in arabic to refer to those who are fighting the dictaterships (which I'm with), so i understood it differently.

Oh, I see, I hadn't thought about what else that could mean.  Then I guess I made a poor choice of words, sorry.  For what it's worth, I don't even know where Lebanon is ^_^ (Americans fail at geography).

Hmm, paradox, that is a very interesting idea!  We'll definitely need to run that by Alloc, though, since it involves namespaces.  Let's try to chat with him when we can (or you can now if you want, I'm at work).


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#61 7/11/12 8:20

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

@ Loser : may I know why you removed the links to your videos ?
''I'd like to stay out of things please''

what things exactly ? Iritscen and Alloc agreed on the wiki page for videos .. There's no issue there ...

your work and name pops out on the wiki a lot, so it's not because you just don't want you work to be shown ..

So may I know why ? The demo of concept videos are beneficial for the community.

And ur fun videos : ''Revenge'' are funny and also useful .. I was actually going to see that vid to see if you were able to show speech with the cutscene letterbox cz i'm having trouble with casey's cutscene.

And they were part of the Oni Too youtube group so what exactly is the problem .. Cz ''stay out of things'' sounded like u're afraid of getting involved in some fight or something.

Last edited by Samer (7/11/12 8:21)


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#62 15/11/12 0:51

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Iritscen wrote:

... I'll try to update the Depot soon as we discussed. smile

...  These issues are certainly our fault for being inactive in those areas, and polite reminders to update them are welcome.

reminder :$ because it's been 2 weeks :$

Last edited by Samer (15/11/12 0:53)


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#63 15/11/12 8:56

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Sorry, it slipped my mind for a while when some other stuff came up.  I should get to it in a few days.


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#64 17/11/12 3:41

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

It's ok ^_^
i took a look at the wiki seems you and paradox have been very busy, i didn't understand what's happening exactly tongue (too much technical terms for a wiki newbie like me) but i'm guessing it's about documenting the xml better like we discussed so good job guys big_smile if i can help in any way (if you explain to me what i need to do) i'll be happy to lend a hand smile


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#65 17/11/12 8:16

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Yep, I'm helping Paradox arrange his documentation and make an overview table so we can introduce things better for newbies to modding.  He's done all the real work, but I can help a bit at the end, being a sysop and knowing Javascript.  After this, I have updating the Depot on my to-do list, then getting to the AE.


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#66 17/11/12 12:58

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Yay big_smile
btw :$ is it possible to restore the download counter to the depot ? I know you removed it some time ago because it was showing wrong numbers, didn't they update the feature yet ?
Also could it be possible that when you select all mods to have them displayed by Modder, and by file name (this will arrange them according to their numbers) (currently we have by type, by install methodm by platform etc ..)


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#67 17/11/12 15:51

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

The download counter may have been fixed, but the fixed version now requires Drupal 7.  We're still on D6, which means making a major core update to the Depot.  I have been trying to make up my mind whether I should take the time to upgrade.  I probably should, just for security reasons, plus it's better in various ways.

As far as displaying by Creator, that is already possible in the All Mods list.  Did you mean that it should sort by Creator by default?

When it comes to the mod name/number thing, I am still opposed to putting the number in the name.  This will become more than an aesthetic issue when the AEI gains the ability to display the Depot's mods, and the mod names all have numbers lodged in them.  I should probably make a new, separate field for Number.  This would of course be a sortable column when listing mods on the Depot.  How does that sound?


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#68 17/11/12 16:58

Samer
Member

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Iritscen wrote:

  I probably should, just for security reasons, plus it's better in various ways.

hope so smile

As far as displaying by Creator, that is already possible in the All Mods list.  Did you mean that it should sort by Creator by default?

uhm no i meant on the main page there's
All Mods then By Type under it subcategories (Character, weapon, etc) i was wondering if on the main page we could also have By Creator and subcategories of modder names under it ...
So you can quickly click the modder's name and see all his mods and only his, same like when you click on character subcategory you only see characters .. Or if possible on a mod's page click on the creator's name to see his other mods ... or add some link other mods by this modder or something similar.

When it comes to the mod name/number thing, I am still opposed to putting the number in the name.  This will become more than an aesthetic issue when the AEI gains the ability to display the Depot's mods, and the mod names all have numbers lodged in them.  I should probably make a new, separate field for Number.  This would of course be a sortable column when listing mods on the Depot.  How does that sound?

sure, i explained to you when i added them the reason if there's a sortable column for numbers that you can easily click to have them sorted by numbers , then adding them to the name won't be necessary ... however this was also a request of mine, an important required feature i feel, the AE installer should have the ability to display the mods by package number order not only alphabetically ..
I mean it doesn't have to show the actual number in the AE installer but have them sorted by number ..
Reason is sorting them by package number makes related mods after each other and allows you to see which will overwrite which easily.
Example now in AE installer we have :
Alita (character) followed by Andrashi melee followed by Arena of hurt followed by bgi agents followed by better weapons etc ..

What i'm proposing is having them in AE installer shown by package number order :
so u'll have the 1...s First (weapons, upgraded oncc) then the 2...s Characters and 24...s Textures then 3....s Trams (breakable glass, shadow dash etc..) then 7.. And 8... (levels) .. Show after each other .. This order will have packages of same type appear after each other and also same modder as we tend to use closer numbers for our mods.
So in AE installer list you'll have : Better Weapons followed by New weapons followed by Onirules weapons (numbers don't appear before the name but they are sorted by number) then followed by New Characters then by BGI agents then Shinatamatoo then ShiantamaBot then Casey etc (following package number order not letter order)
For a user he's not going to think i want to install or disable all A or Z mods, but he might think i want to install/uninstall all texture mods or weapons, this way they'll show right after each other in the list. (he can still press the letter on the keyboard to jump between mods in the list that start with that letter) And the one that shows further down will overwrite the one shown before, so he'll know that HD konoko will overwrite VR konoko, though if they were arranged by names VR konoko will appear lower giving impression it will overwrite HD konoko, I think that order should be default for AE installer and mod depot .. not necessarily showing the number in front of it but sorted by it.

Last edited by Samer (17/11/12 17:09)


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#69 17/11/12 17:20

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: My Wiki Page ^_^ and a question.

Samer wrote:

i was wondering if on the main page we could also have By Creator and subcategories of modder names under it ...

Well, I'll think about it, but you can already see all of a person's mods by sorting the All Mods list by Creator, so it seems like extra work for nothing....

the AE installer should have the ability to display the mods by package number order not only alphabetically ..
I mean it doesn't have to show the actual number in the AE installer but have them sorted by number ..
Reason is sorting them by package number makes related mods after each other and allows you to see which will overwrite which easily.

I agree, the Installer should do something like this.  I would also like the AEI to detect when a package will overwrite another and either print a warning below that mod's info in the side panel, or else compile a list of overwrite warnings in the window somewhere so the user knows exactly what is being overwritten by what.  It would be easy to program, but I don't know how to represent it onscreen; for instance, how do I convey which files are being overwritten when there is only partial overlap between packages?  If you have any suggestions for doing this, please put them in one of the relevant AE threads so I can have everything in one place.


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