To Oni Fans you should do better by Samer + ltemplar/dirk discussion

ltemplar · 02/16/13 14:02

Maybe I'll repeat myself again, but:

-Thous who seek mods are more interested in new content over original , rather than only graphics upgrade. - factor that gave them another reason to finish this game once more.
-The next thing is that this game engine is old and hard to mod so less peoples will even give it a try.

Last edited by ltemplar (02/16/13 14:02)

Samer · 02/16/13 19:02

Ok ... my final comments on this thread:

why people don't post comments or feedback is due to several reasons, I was addressing those with a certain reason.

kyletm57 wrote:

I think another major reason people often don't post thanks or feedback is because they only know forum members as a picture over the internet. Often times people forget that who they are talking to over the web is a real person who has feelings and emotions.

1.that's what I was mainly addressing, those who take it for granted and do download and enjoy but just don't say anything, and don't understand the effect their comments could have in encouraging\motivating or discouraging modders. Some modders don't care if they get feedback but on the long run lack of comments will demotivate them especially if they're modding for the best interest of other users rather than strictly for themselves.

2. Lack of interest is ofcourse a factor, in decreasing comments, I for one have lost interest in playing vanilla Oni a long time ago, however with mods I feel there's always something new that can be done and to renew interest.
Many games offer much less variety than Oni, where you just run and shoot, Oni has a unique combat system where you can play whatever way you like each time, and more moves\techniques than many newer games add to that that by modding we can make new animations and moves and weapons and now new levels.
But no one is making them currently, because some modders are demotivated, thus the importance of the fans support, asking for stuff and commenting on existing mods, (some not all, some are just busy i know so let's not enumarate all other possible causes such as they died, gone blind, lost an arm etc ... For me it's busy + demotivated combo) this community activity I believe will renew interest for modders to make new stuff which in turn will renew interest for players.
The interest in Oni doesn't only branch from gameplay itself for me, i believe the community, the mods, and discussions are a part of the experience.
Thus i'm encouraging others to participate more ...
And true, interest in something comes and goes, but when you really love something, you don't just stop caring about it all together.
Ok some are not interested in playing some minor mods, but still if you love the game and see that those people are making it better, you can be supportive and encouraging, i.e look beyond what you personally want from the game and look at the bigger picture ...

3. I feel we focused too much on ''eye candy'' and that's not enough to renew interest, and ltemplar brought it up again, again I only took hqninjas as an example .. Let's take a look at old china mod instead :
new level, new characters, new gameplay (sniper mod, stealth etc..)
i don't think it got the feedback it deserved, on facebook group, i posted about it and people who tried it commented there and enjoyed it, yet very few came back to the forum to say thanks, though i told them the modders who made it don't have facebook and they should comment on the forum, (that's what i'm addressing, take the time to give feedback, and what i think kylem expressed)

new content that encourages them to play once more

as an example, again not about me: SMP-Conversion practically changes the entire game (all levels affected) and even affects the story, i've added the skull team (whatever you want to call them unique characters which can health regenerate) at key points with unique dialogue for each ... Casey as partner in some levels. Casey also fights against konoko at hq, blackops femcops are tougher and changed team final battle and dream lab ... This adds replay value and makes it more challenging yet sticking to the original game spirit ... How many of you actually tried it ? How many of you actually saw what grey fury\reg tanker\kojiro say to konoko or how the fight with casey in hq ends ? Not many i believe and those who have didn't say anything. (again example, not about me)

I'm gonna address the eye candy issue though it's not on topic:
the game is old we are trying to make it better :
it needs better graphics, i feel graphics are a huge part of it, I for one have sometimes replayed training level or airport just to see how everything looks with bozzmans or VR's new level textures.
Blocky, ugly characters also have a huge effect on how you feel about the game, there are plenty of times when i got some old game and couldn't get over the ugly graphics to actually play it cause i simply couldn't stand looking at the characters, it broke the illusion, i didn't see them as characters i saw ''models'' and ''pixelations'' thus i couldn't get into the mood of the game and feel it's believable at all.
New character textures for many, not just me, I believe improve how you perceive the characters and make the mood more believable, esp for users who are coming from high quality games back to oni .. Instead of this huge graphical gap we're doing our best to bridge it. Meaning yes it's never going to be on par with 2010 - 2013 graphics but if we can bring them to the level of those 2004-2006 games' graphics then we did a good job, and making the transition and difference less noticeable for users ...
So yes graphics for many : increase replay value (just to see how everyhting changed), make the mood and characters more believable, bridges the gap between oni and newer games visually... So it's as important as any new content and many users do get excited about them.
Hq ninjas is minor cause we already made the other stuff, my character retexture handled almost all the other characters, (as best as I could) and we have hd konoko, griffin and muro. Ninjas, elites, strikers and thugs are all that's left as vanilla so of course the new texture mods will be minor. (and of course there's always room for improvement further for the already retextured ones)
But what we have an issue with is continuity where we start something great and never continue it (again importance of user's support, and motivation) and lack of team work, ex if VR and Bozzman and few others collaborated we could have had all levels retextured by now.
Sorry ltemplar have to mention you here, if you and I continued the BGI project we would have made something that surely would have increased replay value and interest, you said in your email the community needs more collaboration, I agree ... But where are those willing to collaborate, you yourself have seemingly forsaken a collaboration project (please don't turn this one statement into a back and forth thing)
We can make new levels, it was a major breakthrough, only Edt has fully attempted it ...
Lukascreator and delano did too .. as a one time thing .. I truly believe the lack of feedback and comments on their work lead to demotivation and loss of interest to mod which in turn leads to less content and loss of interest from players ...
Users ask for stuff but when they get it, they don't say anything that's a major problem i believe ... take for example when users report a problem, and we give them the how to fix it .. We rarely get feedback from them if it's fixed, they just ask get what they want and disappear, in that case they can and should do better, it's not an ''Oni'' thing it applies to many forums.
Many forums actually force you to give feedback\rate once you download a mod or has a handy ''like'' or ''saythanks'' button.

Another factor for a decrease in interest is many users don't know many of the mods even exist, they just download AE and that's it, they think all the important mods are in it so they don't bother trying the other more interesting - newer mods and don't visit the forum, that's why i think the new AEI -hopefully- will change that dramatically as it won't showcase any mods as more important and they'll be able to see everything available at once. Thought the forum may become even less active since they'll be able to do everything from AEI

Anyway this is all i have to say on this topic ... I hope interest in Oni is not completely lost .. We can all take breaks from it (I know I have and am) but we shouldn't forsake it all together and we can and should make an effort to participate in the community regarding mods even if we're not 'playing' the game and we should appreciate the effort modders put into it, (and show the appreciation) .. feedback does help modders grow and get motivated and produce new content which in turn renews interest for users. And the way feedback is given is very important, rude annoying, net picking feedback will have the opposite effect. Feedback can be negative and encouraging at same time, i could have trashed micheles mods but i tried my best to be encouraging while giving critique... and keep in mind the modder is a person .. Not just a machine releasing mods.

Edit: 1 more thing @adam i disagree about facebook, you can't generalize, it depends how each user will use it, like any other social site.

Last edited by Samer (02/16/13 21:02)

ltemplar · 02/16/13 21:02

Samer.

1)The point in upgrading graphics lays in how we should do this. The VR , Bozzman , yours (even my) textures are looking nice and all but in 3D program. For game, that only use ambient light and a bit of directional to lit characters we should try another approach. The good example is the "Fear effect" . Graphics there is simple but it's have this unique charm.
Another thing is that putting HD characters in the non HD environment will create opposite effect than we want to achieve. So in reality all factors are connected. You can take only one part, change it, and leave the rest .

2)The game play. While I agree that h2h is the most strong point of this game, that I can't agree that other parts are even good enough.For example shooting. At the first eye sight it seams ok..but if we take a closer look we will see that it's lack in many aspects.from Ai to it's mechanics on the balance of particular weapons ending. The next week point is platforming - I don't even get why they bother to crate it in the first place.

Of course there is more like complete lack of player menu, and min games, etc, but I don't have time or will to bring all of them here.

As the last note.
In my opinion the problem with feedback is not the lack of interest in particular projects, but in the fact, that most peoples only want to get something, but nobody teched them to say thanks in return..Sadly , but this behavior we can spot not only on forums, but also in real life too.

Last edited by ltemplar (02/16/13 21:02)

Iritscen · 02/17/13 07:02

Another thing is that putting HD characters in the non HD environment will create opposite effect than we want to achieve.

That's the truth. For instance, an HD Griffin would only make the background here look worse: http://iritscen.oni2.net/images/tnl/Oni … xtures.png.

Samer · 02/17/13 08:02

yeah but that means we should improve the background and levels too .. not that we shouldn't improve characters. We have to start somewhere.

Last edited by Samer (02/17/13 08:02)

Iritscen · 02/17/13 08:02

Yes, that's true. I should add here that at least one talented modder has told me that he would want to see better tools/workflow before he did more work on textures. For some of us, modding is so much easier than it used to be that we think it's fine as-is, but compared to what some other people are used to, it's not necessarily good enough to encourage more Oni modding.

s10k · 02/17/13 09:02

Well would be nice to receive suggestions from this modders I believe. At least for Vago I've not received many suggestion for improvements (while I have some ideas too). The same applies for OniSplit if you guys have any idea for improvement you should tell directly to neo or even create a topic here for it.

ltemplar · 02/17/13 10:02

I dont want to be a dark visioner here, but:

If we start adding suggestions how many things we should upgrade in graphics(environment , characters, support L&D, etc) we will end in the point where a new engine will be required to achieve this. And we all know how this will end in current circumstances.

In my opinion we rather ,should rethink how to change graphics to the point, where such imperfections of the Motoko will be less spotted. I know many graphical tricks that can help us to chive this goal, but firs we must stop thinking on ONi as the game that can be compared with thous titles from 2010-2013 ,or as the bridge between them, and start using graph available when oni first came out.
The good example of such approach can be a Fear Effect , or Gunnm martian memory - games from the PS1 era.
The other can be FF Dissidia - on the psp platform - especially to study how shadows can be incorporated to character texture without dynamic L&S.

Also many things from the game play view, can be created to some degree, but only if we accept theirs imperfections.

What regards modding tools:
- the perfect will be to have constructor, where we can add scripts, characters, furnitures, etc.
- and some sort of texture/model viewer-s..so we are not forced to lunch game every time when we want to see them in real time - especially where thous damn particles are placed on guns.
-also particle editor will be a nice addition , and will help us a lot.

Last edited by ltemplar (02/17/13 10:02)

Iritscen · 02/17/13 10:02

ltemplar wrote:

What regards modding tools[...]

I agree, and also I've been meaning to connect with that modder and figure out what he is used to, as a professional, so we have some basis for knowing what the "top of the line" modding tools look like.

It might be helpful to start a thread for brainstorming new tools, although I don't think we actually have the coding help available to do that kind of work right now. But we can at least make steps in the right direction, over time, if we know what direction to go in.

Lithium · 02/17/13 14:02

I'd love to try textures if my visual skills weren't shit ; A;

Dirk Gently · 02/18/13 09:02

ltemplar wrote:

I dont want to be a dark visioner here, but:
If we start adding suggestions how many things we should upgrade in graphics(environment , characters, support L&D, etc) we will end in the point where a new engine will be required to achieve this. And we all know how this will end in current circumstances.
In my opinion we rather ,should rethink how to change graphics to the point, where such imperfections of the Motoko will be less spotted. I know many graphical tricks that can help us to chive this goal, but firs we must stop thinking on ONi as the game that can be compared with thous titles from 2010-2013 ,or as the bridge between them, and start using graph available when oni first came out.
The good example of such approach can be a Fear Effect , or Gunnm martian memory - games from the PS1 era.
The other can be FF Dissidia - on the psp platform - especially to study how shadows can be incorporated to character texture without dynamic L&S.
Also many things from the game play view, can be created to some degree, but only if we accept theirs imperfections.
What regards modding tools:
- the perfect will be to have constructor, where we can add scripts, characters, furnitures, etc.
- and some sort of texture/model viewer-s..so we are not forced to lunch game every time when we want to see them in real time - especially where thous damn particles are placed on guns.
-also particle editor will be a nice addition , and will help us a lot.

ltemplar, first off I would like you to elaborate on what you said previously on AI mechanics, and graphical enhancements. You say you know "tricks" on how to enhance the graphical engine of the game. What I find it hard to believe you can make these claims without seeming to have any knowledge of the inner workings of the engine itself.

ltemplar · 02/18/13 10:02

Hmm.....

How should I explain it to you...
The point is that I'll not touch anything in the engine, but change only graphics style of it to be close more to anime. In that way the imperfections such as bad shadow and lights, characters blocky, etc, will be less visible than they're now. Also we can create separate characters for cut scenes(hd ones) , and for the game . There is plenty of ways that we can use to achieve that goal.

About AI- for example: good like accuracy, inability to fight in close when they have guns, inability to use special attacks when they have guns. And all that can be modded to some degree.

"What I find it hard to believe you can make these claims without seeming to have any knowledge of the inner workings of the engine itself." - could you be kind enough and explain to me in simple words what do you mean by that?Because if I recall correctly I newer claim , that I'll mod engine itself. I put rather opposite statement.

Last edited by ltemplar (02/18/13 10:02)

Samer · 02/18/13 12:02

I believe those points would be better discussed (again) in the modifications section.
meaning ltemplar has previously elaborated in length on his opinion on the h2h and other stuff on several other threads, (which all happened to be started by me on something completely irrelevant) let's not do it here too, please
just quote these 2 posts and start a new thread in the modifications.

Last edited by Samer (02/18/13 12:02)

uroboros · 02/18/13 13:02

Samer wrote:

To Oni Fans you should do better

Hmm yes as someone said before I think the main problem is that the community is small - compared to the awesome content created by number of people.
I still believe that new Anniversary Edition could add more popularity for Oni and the OCF.
Oh and updating the ModDB page is also a good idea (that's how I learned about AE btw. ). Some screenshots could help ppl get the idea what the hell AE is all about. For example screen like this one which looks cool and showcases few things 1.New level 2.New character 3.New animation.

Last edited by uroboros (02/18/13 13:02)

Iritscen · 02/18/13 14:02

Thanks for the input, uroboros. You're right, the ModDB page deserves more attention. I promise to do something with it when we release the new AE. I think some short videos, for instance, would help show what mods are available.

TomeOne · 02/18/13 16:02

Samer wrote:

I believe those points would be better discussed (again) in the modifications section.
meaning ltemplar has previously elaborated in length on his opinion on the h2h and other stuff on several other threads, (which all happened to be started by me on something completely irrelevant) let's not do it here too, please
just quote these 2 posts and start a new thread in the modifications.

Could you, you know, lay off ltemplar and stop being a backseat moderator? Thank you.

Dirk Gently · 02/18/13 19:02

ltemplar wrote:

Hmm.....
How should I explain it to you...
The point is that I'll not touch anything in the engine, but change only graphics style of it to be close more to anime. In that way the imperfections such as bad shadow and lights, characters blocky, etc, will be less visible than they're now. Also we can create separate characters for cut scenes(hd ones) , and for the game . There is plenty of ways that we can use to achieve that goal.
About AI- for example: good like accuracy, inability to fight in close when they have guns, inability to use special attacks when they have guns. And all that can be modded to some degree.
"What I find it hard to believe you can make these claims without seeming to have any knowledge of the inner workings of the engine itself." - could you be kind enough and explain to me in simple words what do you mean by that?Because if I recall correctly I newer claim , that I'll mod engine itself. I put rather opposite statement.

You are making these statements about changing the art style or giving it HD artwork to make it look better, however I think you are completely missing the point here. You cannot just say these will happen, unless you actually understand how far that can be taken. It is very apparent to me that you have little to no understanding of the backend of this game's engine and the limitations it has.

Last edited by Dirk Gently (02/18/13 19:02)

Samer · 02/18/13 22:02

Could you, you know, lay off ltemplar and stop being a backseat moderator? Thank you.

with all the respect Harry .. could you, you know ... be a frontseat moderator ? haven't you noticed he has posted that same stuff on every other thread ? now if I have posted "anything but oni" topic under modifications i think i would have been told to post it under the right section, why is the opposite overlooked ?
regarding his opinion on gameplay
here:
http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 008#p42008
and here:
http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 536#p44536 till post 24 completely irrelevant to the topic
and here
http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 621#p42621
and here
http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 635#p42635
and here
http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 340#p44340

do we really have to repost them again here because Dirk didn't see them ? .. it's a modifications topic .. it should be under modifications or why bother have sections at all ?
as much as I enjoy the Dirk "you don't know what you're talking about" and the ltemplar "yes I do, and quoting other games I never heard off" banter does it have to be on a thread I started, and subscribed by email to, about something completely irrelevant ?
if it's about preserving threads for some reason, his original thread of his various modifications can be used http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=2413

Last edited by Samer (02/18/13 22:02)

TomeOne · 02/18/13 22:02

You have some issues, Samer. Take a break.

Samer · 02/18/13 23:02

Well apparently giving logical reasoning and proof doesn't work for you.
So ok whatever you say boss post ahead ltemplar and dirk (be sure to requote ltemplar's posts in full length it's always double the delight to quadriple them) .. Hell if you want feel free to copy paste them on whatever other threads I've made.
Thanks Harry for the feedback didn't know I was breaking rules or ''having issues'' by telling others to post on the correct section, I'll be sure to never do that again.
Take care.

And I redited the title so everyone can keep track

Last edited by Samer (02/18/13 23:02)

Lithium · 02/18/13 23:02

I sense a lot of stress... a break might help since more human interactions can sometimes add more stress or further conflict on one.
From someone who has a lot of issues with relationships I recommend taking some time to yourself and relaxing

Last edited by Lithium (02/19/13 00:02)

Samer · 02/19/13 00:02

There's no stress ... Nothing personal for ltemplar, dirk or harry. The thing is ltemplar's and dirks discussion are modifications / general discussion topics that is a fact not an opinion, (and it's not a 1 time thing) so by logic they should be there, but maybe I'm the only one who still cares that much about keeping the forum organized and I need to chill ... and if i'm backseat moderating, stepping over someone's toes by pointing that out then ok, I wouldn't want to take someone's ''job'' or whatever. And since Harry doesn't agree with that, I have no choice except to comply since he's the adminstrator whether i think it's fair/right or not. So there's no conflict ... And whether people want to read more into it and turn it into ''having issues'' is something I don't really care about, I can say you have issues to anyone doesn't mean it's true nor that I'm qualified to pass that judgement so it doesn't really matter to me ... Therefore no stress for me ^_^

Last edited by Samer (02/19/13 00:02)

Lithium · 02/19/13 00:02

I agree that perhaps the forum may not be up to par with what it was before but keep in mind not everyone holds this in that much high regard. Because of my lack to contribute in terms of modding I don't keep up much with mods and the forum itself, not only that but I've been unable to play.

Regarding Harry, keep in mind some staff work differently than others. Gumby and Iritscen are mainly here to keep order within people, Gumby's been the strict one but he's been inactive, Iritscen's more of the good cop type of mod, without those two order is bound to be lost. Harry's mainly here to keep the forum working and running, he hasn't been involved much in conflicts or dramas, that's why we have mods. Also Itemplar's extremely tolerable compared to the people I've met throughout my years, he's not that bad but I can see why you get upset at him, just saying that it's not worth getting upset for dude.

Also I felt like your school thing may be stressing you, which is why I made that assumption.

Edit: I'll have to read more of temp's posts before I continue.

Last edited by Lithium (02/19/13 01:02)

Samer · 02/19/13 00:02

uroboros wrote:

Some screenshots could help ppl get the idea what the hell AE is all about. For example screen like this one which looks cool and showcases few things 1.New level 2.New character 3.New animation.

glad you picked my screenshot what would be cool actually if the depot could support previewing screenshots in the mod's description like on the forum and what would be even better if the AE installer could show that screenshot in the mod description panel

Iritscen wrote:

Thanks for the input, uroboros. You're right, the ModDB page deserves more attention. I promise to do something with it when we release the new AE. I think some short videos, for instance, would help show what mods are available.

we have plenty of videos showcasing the mods on the wiki .. we could add links to them in the mod's description on the depot so they show in the AE installer.

Last edited by Samer (02/19/13 01:02)

Samer · 02/19/13 01:02

Gumby's been the strict one but he's been inactive, Iritscen's more of the good cop type of mod, without those two order is bound to be lost. Harry's mainly here to keep the forum working and running

that's why I thought I was actually helping keeping it organized since others as you pointed out don't have the time \ aren't concerned with those small details .. but apparently that's frowned upon for some reason ( I wasn't going to take anyone's paycheck you know ) .. it's not about conflict here, whether ltemplar or someone else posted irrelevant posts to the thread I'd say same thing.

and yes ltemplar is a nice guy and all, but once you read same posts over and over on threads that you started and then they're re-quoted so they fill up double the space on a topic they don't belong to, and you receive them in your email inbox it gets annoying to say the least

like i started this thread to encourage other users to participate more and to hear from them about this topic, i don't want to have to scroll down through posts that aren't related and get notified about them, same thing happened with ''all time favorite games''

Last edited by Samer (02/19/13 01:02)

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